VPW and the Snowstorm - What do you believe?

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

reliance on phenomenon from a merely magical mythical view of God...

loathing and avoidance of suffering and darkness...

lack of practical spiritual practices and disciplines...

juvenile christian metaphysics...

20th century flight from death...

again...how can he say "...since the first century..." if he left out the wisdom and experiences of the "desert fathers" of christianity, for example

or most all of the christian and jewish contributions in the fields of dream WORK, or caregiving, or monastic devotion...

there is a huge difference between crafting and conceptualizing clever maps and models of one's novel iconoclastic theology

...and demonstrating actual living practices that live up to the claim of "since the first century"

and justifying vpws lifestyle by comparing him to david seems silly..

especially when the teachings of countless people whose lives (and deaths) were/are obviously more like Christ than even David himself

...are outright dismissed, constantly ignored, and generally left out of "the ultimate truth equation"

imo, he was not only oblivious to, but FEARED and ENVIED 2000 years of actual practices in christian experience

like someone who will not look at what he wishes he understood

...and even tries to get others to stop participating in them because he cant bring himself to

for someone who has "been to parts of chicago"...its quite evident when someone has never been to "chicago"

...talks about being "The expert on chicago"

why according to Mike, WD, and OM the desert fathers were heretics doing spin and personal paradigms, or at least they would claim VPW would say such things, or have I put words into their mouths?

[sirguessalot]

im not quoting anything vpw or anyone read or said...

though i remember what i remember

and it seems it becomes increasingly obvious to a plumber ...perhaps even to a good student plumber

...what tools and skills and methods a non-plumber doesnt bring to a leak or a clog

especially after they're gone

i other words...regardless of what he has or has not read

its easy to tell what is not included

which can be A LOT

and i simply dont recall him ever mentioning them

let alone doing or experiencing anything close to what the desert fathers were about

let alone any other "true hero" of the bible or history...or pre-history

...

this is partial...but how i currently see it...

i sense that during some period or periods of his life...he could and would peek at just about anything he wanted to

and i can even imagine how the oceans of alien imagery and words and clothes of all the world's sacred texts and religions

may have filled him with the usual cocktail of terror, frustration, rage, envy, fear, worry...whatnot

...and im guessing we can all understand that

and as he cant help but see some true aspect in it ...sadly he sees them as having been "stolen by the agents of his mythological enemy...the devil"...

and then kinda like his devil...steals it and integrates it into his own set of maps and languages as fulfillment of his snowy promise experience

...yep

in service to an ordinary magical talking ego ...which he mistook for the voice of God

he desperately needed to interpret the radical peaks and valleys of his own life experience

...yep

...and typical to form...our severely wounded healer races off to save the world from his very own nest of demons

and somehow trump their fantasized concepts and language of God with my fantasized concepts and languages of God

yep...another ordinarily exaggerated life

thank God hubris is one of the angels in our choir...i guess

Edited January 13, 2009 by sirguessalot

[RumRunner]

LOL - sounds like it would make a good anime cartoon guessalot...

im not quoting anything vpw or anyone read or said...

though i remember what i remember

and it seems it becomes increasingly obvious to a plumber ...perhaps even to a good student plumber

...what tools and skills and methods a non-plumber doesnt bring to a leak or a clog

especially after they're gone

i other words...regardless of what he has or has not read

its easy to tell what is not included

which can be A LOT

this is partial...but how i currently see it...

i sense that during some period or periods of his life...he could and would peek at just about anything he wanted to

and i can even imagine how the oceans of alien imagery and words and clothes of all the world's sacred texts and religions

may have filled him with the usual cocktail of terror, frustration, rage, envy, fear, worry...whatnot

...and im guessing we can all understand that

and as he cant help but see some true aspect in it ...sadly he sees them as having been "stolen by the agents of his mythological enemy...the devil"...

and then kinda like his devil...steals it and integrates it into his own set of maps and languages as fulfillment of his snowy promise experience

...yep

in service to an ordinary magical talking ego ...which he mistook for the voice of God

he desperately needed to interpret the radical peaks and valleys of his own life experience

...yep

...and typical to form...our severely wounded healer races off to save the world from his very own nest of demons

and somehow trump their fantasized concepts and language of God with my fantasized concepts and languages of God

yep...another ordinarily exaggerated life

thank God hubris is one of the angels in our choir...i guess

[What The Hey]

My oh my. All this discussion and you are only lead to this conclusion:

Some people believe: God forbid anything VPW ever said or taught from the bible = "Thus saith the Lord."

But if the Lord himself would have said or taught it instead ... to them it still wouldn't prove to be anything.

[Raf]

My oh my. All this discussion and you are only lead to this conclusion:

Speak for yourself. Some of us are led to other conclusions. Such as: VPW could have left a signed confession with a videotaped addendum, and some people would still refuse to acknowledge that he was a predator who abused God's Word and His people to satisfy his lust for money, sex and power.

You only need to eat one person to be a cannibal, no matter how many people you met and did not eat.

[JeffSjo]

for me a lot of PFAL is something that I hold on to.

I really like a lot of what E.W. Bullinger taught too, but IMO the dispensationalism that Wierwille took from him and others only served to help Wierwille hide behind the doctrines that he taught. After all, what Wierwille snookered folks into thinking was ministering to young women was openly condemned by the Lord in the gospels. So Wierwille used dispensationalism to hide his own perversions and managed to hash the Word to pieces while convincing folks that he had put together the Word as it had not been known since the first century.

Of course I also remember the impression that Wierwille seemed to get kind of a twisted pleasure out of thinking that he did what Bullinger did, but did it better. There seemed to be some kind of strife in his heart when it came to the ones that he learned from.

Yeah, I hold to PFAL, but have continued to prove the doctrine like PFAL taught me to do. I have found that much of it was wrong.

For me, my journey in the scriptures began in PFAL and that is what compells me to consider Wierwille a viscious predator.

(edited for spelling, a little added too)

Edited January 13, 2009 by JeffSjo

[WhiteDove]

Speak for yourself. Some of us are led to other conclusions. Such as: VPW could have left a signed confession with a videotaped addendum, and some people would still refuse to acknowledge that he was a predator who abused God's Word and His people to satisfy his lust for money, sex and power.

You only need to eat one person to be a cannibal, no matter how many people you met and did not eat.

Actually I have been a consistant supporter of such hard evidence, and by the way I'm still waiting to see some.

why according to Mike, WD, and OM the desert fathers were heretics doing spin and personal paradigms, or at least they would claim VPW would say such things, or have I put words into their mouths?

I'm sorry I don't believe I ever said or implied any such thing. You are misrepresenting me which by the way according to Mod Cow is against the rules here. That is of course assuming the rules apply to everyone across the board.

[JeffSjo]

Actually I have been a consistant supporter of such hard evidence, and by the way I'm still waiting to see some.

Good one WD,

I'm waiting for hard evidence too, about the snowstorm. <_<

I read on this sight the police report where Wierwille claims that the Lord told him to have sex with the young lady in question!!!!!

Edited January 13, 2009 by JeffSjo

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Actually I have been a consistant supporter of such hard evidence, and by the way I'm still waiting to see some.

Really?...I have seen plenty of hard evidence here...are you not looking at the same things I am or are you, perhaps, in some kind of denial?

[WhiteDove]

Really?...I have seen plenty of hard evidence here...are you not looking at the same things I am or are you, perhaps, in some kind of denial?

Really perhaps you would like to refresh my memory. I don't recall any hard evidence as Raf discussed. I have seen personal testimony ,opinion. Words...... could be true ,could be not. People's words are what they are nothing more ,nothing less without hard evidence they are not documentable. That makes them neither true or false it just makes them someones words.

Good one WD,

I'm waiting for hard evidence too, about the snowstorm.

I read on this sight the police report where Wierwille claims that the Lord told him to have sex with the young lady in question!!!!!

To my knowledge there is none so I suppose if one is in the business of just accepting peoples words, then they would also accept his as well without the same hard evidence. I say so works equally for all.

Edited January 13, 2009 by WhiteDove

[Raf]

WD wants proof. Do you have any rock solid proof. Not testimony from abused Christian after abused Christian, many of whom are turned off Christ forever as a result. No, testimony is not proof. He wants stains on dresses. He wants videotape. He wants to do a drug test that can pick up traces of laced drinks imbibed 35 years ago. Nothing short of that will consitute proof!

Pay no attention to the moonwalking bear!

[JeffSjo]

Wierwille taught in "Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus" as edited by Geer that he thought that if Bathshebah had pled for her and Solomon's life by reminding David of the rape that David would have said,"Get out of here woman."

My heart hurts for how the abused in TWI felt when they read that.

Wierwille wrote that in the chapter entitled, "THE FINAL CHAPTER."

I'm saying this to you right now WD. Wierwille's crushing dogma will not be the final chapter.

I'm speaking my thoughts today.

The Lord will have his say concerning those like Wierwille who've turned the Grace of God into unrestrained lust..... IT IS WRITTEN.

For those here who do not believe the scriptures, I am most happy to add my voice to their's when it comes to condemning Wierwille's actions.

(added in editing)

Moonwaling bear? Feel free to explain that one to me, please. P.m. or e-mail would be fine.

Edited January 13, 2009 by JeffSjo

[waysider]

80 Proof

[JeffSjo]

In terms of Wierwille's words that reminds me Waysider.....

It was common knowledge in TWI in the early eighties that Wierwille liked drambuie.

Then I heard him say in a taped sharing from Great Britain that he was allergic to alcohol. The recording was made just before his passing. W. T. F.

People that have alcohol allergies should not have a favorite liquer. Unless they are an alcoholic making a predictable excuse. I'm certain that anyone who has been exposed to A.A. will see his supposed "allergy" for what it really was.

To tell you the truth, it is a lot easier to reject everything Wierwille said once I started putting these things together.

In spite of that, I still hold to the scriptures, even if Wierwille happened to get it right.

(edited for clarity)

Edited January 14, 2009 by JeffSjo

[WhiteDove]

WD wants proof. Do you have any rock solid proof. Not testimony from abused Christian after abused Christian, many of whom are turned off Christ forever as a result. No, testimony is not proof. He wants stains on dresses. He wants videotape. He wants to do a drug test that can pick up traces of laced drinks imbibed 35 years ago. Nothing short of that will consitute proof!

Pay no attention to the moonwalking bear!

Actually Raf you are the one who brought the subject up I did not ask for anything. I merely responded to your assumption that Quote:

VPW could have left a signed confession with a videotaped addendum, and some people would still refuse to acknowledge that he was a predator who abused God's Word and His people to satisfy his lust for money, sex and power.

I reaffirmed that that would indeed by documentable evidence, only it seems to be missing in action. As such we are left with words. Pretty much the same as VP's snow story one can make up their own mind if they want to accept such words as truth without hard evidence. I don't I'll leave it where it belongs undocumentable either way.

[DontWorryBeHappy]

hi greasespotters!!

much has been posted on numerous threads here through the years, about the tremendous "scriptural truth", or "accuracy of god's word, rightly divivded, as it has not been known since the first century", supposedly contained in the so-called "written works" of der victoid. as most greasespotters and lurkers here know, our fellow greasespotter, Mike, even proposes that vic's "written works" are actually "god-breathed", or, as stated differently, that the "written works" of vic were given to him, (and, according to Mike, also given to members of the "research team", vic's "team" of editors, and to folks like j.e.stles, b.g. leonard, e.w.bullinger, e.w. kenyon, and other authors whom vic freely plagiarized where his theology, "by revelation", lined up with their's!), by direct revelation from the god and father of jesus christ. thus, according to some who have posted here for a long time, these so-called "written works" vic produced are in fact, or, at least contain, pure, unadulterated, supposedly unfiltered, "rightly divided truth" from the "one true god".

personally, i share absolutely no similar belief in the purported "greatness" of vic's "written works", or any of his other "works" for that matter. perhaps it is my personal, firsthand, experience working with the research team on several of vic's "books" that compels me to disagree so strongly with the hypotheses put forth by some regarding the source(s) of all the "revelation" vic got and had "written down" in his books, as well as the methodology of his supposed "biblical research".

when i first started posting again here at the greasespotcafe back in september, 2007, i received a few PM's from another poster here at the spot, who asked me specifically how vic wrote his books. i responded in two PM's, which our fellow greasespotter, Raf has allowed me to post here in the forums, and which i think are directly pertinent to this discussion. following are those excerpts. i post them to provide a firsthand, experiential, perspective of the actual process employed by vic in writing every book that bore his name. there are other posters here at the greasespot with similar, firsthand, participatory accounts of their own experiences as members of the "research team" in later years at twi, and who also were in soime of the very same research and writing sessions which i describe in these excerpts of my PM's to Raf. i'm hoping they will add their personal perspectives, experiences, and insights into the FACTS behind vic's writing prowess, and that a lively, objective discussion will ensue.

"hello there rafael!.....love that name!.........publicly, vic never would have agreed that he was not the author of his works or that they were really "godbreathed".......just like he would never have accepted being called an apostle........but that's only ''publicly".........back in '70-72, when cummins was his assistant and the defacto head of the research dept.,......the "behind the scenes" mechanics of vic's research was very heavily influenced by bullinger's methodology and style.......that is to say, vic would have cummins and bernita jess (aramaic expert) and donna randall (his personal and research secretary at the time) as his "research team", and he would have them there with various critical greek texts, the novum testamentum graece (a one volume collection of numerous greek manuscript variant readings compared with several critical greek texts, using the stevens' critical greek text as the main body of text for comparison) aramaic manuscripts (primarily Lamsa"s so-called pedangta text), bullinger's lexicon and concordance to the greek NT,, young's and strongs concordances,.pillai's works on orientalisms, bullinger's figures of speech used in the bible, number in scripture, and witness of the stars, and several other "research tools" all immediately available to him at a head table in the front of the brc......and then we would "work the word" on whatever verses or topic he was "working" at the time....."

"various in-residence corps kids were "understudies" to the big three and would also be there and sometimes other invited guests or the entire in-res corps.......then, he would begin and all would be looking up "in their particular field of expertise" whatever text or manuscript evidence there was on whatever verse or word he was pursuing.....all the aforementioned sources would be checked and discussions would ensue.......however, the final results were always determined by what vic decided it "just had to be in the "original'"..(sic!).......catch being as he states in pfal."we have no originals"!!......so basically, "the original text" was totally fabricated by whatever vic said he knew it "just had to be in the original text"........many times the final outcome would be vic saying that he knew this was the way to go on a verse or topic and "we'll just have to keep looking until we find a text or manuscript", or whatever spurious source there may be that will corroborate what he wanted to say........regardless of what the actual, textual or manuscript evidence may or may not have been, what vic decided it just had to say in the original was the final answer!......"

"i was there (as cummins' "understudy" while in-res) for many of the lengthy sessions that culminated in the first published edition of jcing and that's exactly how the final research was decided upon.......so, in effect, vic was deciding what the "original" was since we had no "originals" to challenge him with.....in other words, vic was making up the "original, godbreathed word" and it was the research dept's mission to come up with something he could quote or use as evidence to support his "knowing the mind of god"!.......that was one of cummins' main jobs when he spent that year in germany at that Institute for New Testament Research......to find texts or manuscripts that would document what vic said it had to be!!!........this was the basis and pattern of what would later be taught to the corps on corps nights as "the literal translation according to biblical useage" crap.......this was also the mold from which all the later publications (jcop, jcops, etc.).....were to be pressed."

"so, even though vic would never allow publicly his writings to be called "godbreathed".....you can see from the actual process, how in fact.......whatever vic thought it should say was indeed what it said "in the original" text...........i hope this answers your question raf.....if not lemme know!........peace.......dwbh."

from the second PM, the following excerpts..............

"your question is unique and has an interesting "slant" to it........you see, wierwille had very poor writing skills.........all of his "written works" were never written down by him!........rather, they all started out as transcripts from presentations or teachings he did, or from transcripts made from the recordings of the research team meetings described earlier..........this mental "laziness" dates back all the way to the chimes hour youth caravan radio broadcasts.

"rhoda wierwille during the van wert days, and then donna randall and karen wierwille martin were the "ghost writer" for all vic's books up until jcop........vic could never muster up the mental discipline required for any serious writing,......she (donna randall) would transcribe whatever teachings, taped meetings or research team discussions vic wanted to "write" a book from, and then she would actually edit them and put them in a written form for him......then, he would review what he had "written", get the research team together as i described to you.....and then have donna put together the final product......remember, she was his "research" secretary as well as his personal secretary........she taught us early corps english every week during our first year in rez!.....everything from basic english grammar and syntax to business writing and even had a "class" with cummins called "research writing and design" that was to form the basis and format for each individual corps member's "research project" which was supposed to be a rquirement for graduation........even vic's account of how he locked himself in a hotel room for a week in order to "put together" the holy spirit book is a lie!!........all he did was lay out j.e.stiles' book and had rhoda (his church secretary at the time), type it up with some minor changes which he DICTATED to her and then put it in the old printing press........that's why there were so many subsequent editions of that book......because when he had donna's expertise available to him, he quickly dumped rhoda for the new and vastly improved model."

"once the "writing" process was complete.......those "research" sessions would become the actual "writing" process for all the books that bore his name......it's in that process where the answer to your question lies.........vic probably would not allow anyone to publicly say that his "written works" were "godbreathed"......in that sense you're right.......but remember......he did'nt write any of his books!!......he basically "dictated" them as i described previously........so many, many times, we'd ask a question during those sessions about what the word was "saying" to us in a particular passage or regarding a particular topic and typically the answer would be something along the lines of...."well kids.....it's just got to be this way......i just know it!!"!......and that would settle it!!!....we all just presumed he was speaking by word of knowledge or word of wisdom, because that's the only way he could know it!!!!!......for instance......i remember vividly,......one night we were hangin' at his house and i asked him..."dr.........have you ever been "caught away" to the third heaven and earth?".....(received the revelation in the book of revelation like the apostles john and paul had).........his answer........."well son, you see, there are just some things i'm not at liberty to discuss with you."......now of course, me being the faithful "corps kid" that i was......i knew this meant the answer was "yes", but that god was not allowing vp to tell me outright for whatever super secret spiritual reason...........do you see how that worked????.......he was basically telling me that, yes, god has shown me the revelation but has not allowed me to share it with you yet!!!!!!.........that was the core of vp's "research" process........getting us to assume that he knew what he knew by revelation.....and that if we were indeed "spiritually savvy" enough we'd understand and accept that!"

so, while never stating outrightly that what he was teaching or "writing" was indeed "godbreathed".......that was in fact, by default, what he expected us to believe.......else we were just "arguing with god".........phew!........what a flashback your question has brought back to me!!!!......"

so...........that's the way it was.............vic's biblical research by revelation...........i wish you could have seen it in the original!..........it just sits there..............like a duck!..........i apologize for the length of this post..........thanks to those who read the whole thing............i hope an interesting and civil discussion will continue...........................peace.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Don'tWorryBeHappy

[WhiteDove]

Moonwaling bear? Feel free to explain that one to me, please. P.m. or e-mail would be fine.

Jeff I can do that for you, that would be called veiled name calling

[Raf]

And that would be a false accusation, WD.

I replied to Jeff in a PM, as he requested.

But the answer to the question is in this thread.

The "Moonwalking Bear" is that which is plain for anyone to see, as long as you are not distracted by irrelevancies that call your attention away from it.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Raf

[Mark Clarke]

PLEASE don't get off on that old argument about solid evidence for VPW's alleged misdeeds. It is beside the point and has derailed too many threads in the past. Let's drop it and keep the discussion on track.

The question that kicked off the thread was what do we believe about VPW and the snowstorm. A secondary, but related topic has been the nature of VPW's writings. I concur with Don't Worry Be Happy's sentiment:

"i'm hoping they will add their personal perspectives, experiences, and insights into the FACTS behind vic's writing prowess, and that a lively, objective discussion will ensue."

[Raf]

Amen, Mark. That's my point, exactly.

[Mark Clarke]

Don't Worry Be Happy,

Thanks so much for your input! I have a couple of questions.

First, you mentioned Lamsa's "so-called" peshi tta text. I don't know much about what went into that. Why do you call it "so-called"?

And secondly, in your opinion, do you think VPW knew he was being dishonest if not fraudulent, or do you think he was so deluded that he actually believed his own BS?

[sirguessalot]

LOL - sounds like it would make a good anime cartoon guessalot...

hehe...funny thought...

i hereby grant my conditional permission for whomever to give it a shot...

maybe just pm me first ...i might be able to help

Edited January 14, 2009 by sirguessalot

[WhiteDove]

Amen, Mark. That's my point, exactly.

Gee if that was your point then why did you bring it up It was you who introduced it out of nowhere Raf. No one else was discussing it. It was you who said

Speak for yourself. Some of us are led to other conclusions. Such as: VPW could have left a signed confession with a videotaped addendum, and some people would still refuse to acknowledge that he was a predator who abused God's Word and His people to satisfy his lust for money, sex and power.

Speaking for myself as "some people" I pointed out that the opposite was true I very much support such documentable evidence as it collaborates verbal words.

WD wants proof. Do you have any rock solid proof. Not testimony from abused Christian after abused Christian, many of whom are turned off Christ forever as a result. No, testimony is not proof. He wants stains on dresses. He wants videotape. He wants to do a drug test that can pick up traces of laced drinks imbibed 35 years ago. Nothing short of that will constitute proof!

Pay no attention to the moonwalking bear!

You then decided I wanted something that I did not ask for, a misrepresentation of what I said. I did not ask for it I only said if it were there as YOU suggested, it would solidify the verbal claims made.

I made no request for anyone to prove their story.

The "Moonwalking Bear" is that which is plain for anyone to see, as long as you are not distracted by irrelevancies that call your attention away from it.

What's plain to see is that you brought up the subject, What's plain to see is that you claimed I wanted something that I did not ask for, What's plain to see is that you assume you know what people think or will or will not believe . You Don't! What's plain to see is that without collaborating evidence words are believed based on things like emotion, gut feelings, guesses, likeability all of which can be wrong.

That is that which is plain for anyone to see, as long as you are not distracted by irrelevancies that call your attention away from it

Yeah Pay no attention to the Moonwalking bear ...Only the mission

I'll be perfectly happy to leave it out of the discussion as long as you are not bringing it up and theorizing what people may or may not believe.

Edited January 14, 2009 by WhiteDove

[Mike]

Hi Don'tWorryBeHappy,

Gosh! I’m finally back to work after a 9 day chest cold. In addition to frantically playing “catch up” in my business, I see the thread here is far from over. Twice I thought it was in its last gasps and I said everything I could. Now, I see it’s far from over. I’m logging some of the most begging-to-be-responded-to posts to try and catch up when I get a little more time, but it looks bleak as to when that will happen.

In the meantime I can’t resist (just like all my posts here) looking at your re-entry post and doing some preliminary responding.

I've added my responses in red.

hi greasespotters!!

much has been posted on numerous threads here through the years, about the tremendous "scriptural truth", or "accuracy of god's word, rightly divivded, as it has not been known since the first century", supposedly contained in the so-called "written works" of der victoid. as most greasespotters and lurkers here know, our fellow greasespotter, Mike, even proposes that vic's "written works" are actually "god-breathed", or, as stated differently, that the "written works" of vic were given to him, (and, according to Mike, also given to members of the "research team", vic's "team" of editors, and to folks like j.e.stles, b.g. leonard, e.w.bullinger, e.w. kenyon, and other authors whom vic freely plagiarized where his theology, "by revelation", lined up with their's!), by direct revelation from the god and father of jesus christ. thus, according to some who have posted here for a long time, these so-called "written works" vic produced are in fact, or, at least contain, pure, unadulterated, supposedly unfiltered, "rightly divided truth" from the "one true god".

In their final published form, yes. I’ve been told by those close to him that he went over the final drafts many times before sending them off to the printers. I’m sure this involved a lot of prayer, as well as other things. You seem to leave this final stage out in your reporting.

personally, i share absolutely no similar belief in the purported "greatness" of vic's "written works", or any of his other "works" for that matter. perhaps it is my personal, firsthand, experience working with the research team on several of vic's "books" that compels me to disagree so strongly with the hypotheses put forth by some regarding the source(s) of all the "revelation" vic got and had "written down" in his books, as well as the methodology of his supposed "biblical research".

Let me add some detail here. Many of the books were published in 1971, several years before you went to HQ.

I studied, and have posted here, many details regarding what I have found out about the writing process. As the topic of this thread, what we believe about the snow, part that story was the audible promise and the word “teach” that was used in it, as given by both our taped and printed accounts. How God taught is interesting, varied, and somewhat still retrievable. I have spent MANY hours interviewing several of those editors who assisted in the process and processes. I’ve posted on much of this already, and will attempt to fine these posts for reference.

Those who built and leaned on the mental image of God DICTATING word for word the texts to VPW should have stopped leaning thereon and dismantled what they built. Instead it was later smashed and they fell over with a thud. Sad. I did not build thusly. I asked a lot of questions and built the “teaching” mental image, and it was varied.

From what I’ve seen below, Don'tWorryBeHappy, a lot of what you’re reporting on were the EARLY processes for the LATER books. I just want to document here in this preliomninary post that there’s more to this story.

when i first started posting again here at the greasespotcafe back in september, 2007, i received a few PM's from another poster here at the spot, who asked me specifically how vic wrote his books. i responded in two PM's, which our fellow greasespotter, Raf has allowed me to post here in the forums, and which i think are directly pertinent to this discussion. following are those excerpts. i post them to provide a firsthand, experiential, perspective of the actual process employed by vic in writing every book I beg to differ here. I'd say it was the later books you have first hand info on. that bore his name. there are other posters here at the greasespot with similar, firsthand, participatory accounts of their own experiences as members of the "research team" in later years at twi, and who also were in soime of the very same research and writing sessions which i describe in these excerpts of my PM's to Raf. i'm hoping they will add their personal perspectives, experiences, and insights into the FACTS behind vic's writing prowess, and that a lively, objective discussion will ensue.

"hello there rafael!.....love that name!.........publicly, vic never would have agreed that he was not the author of his works or that they were really "godbreathed" HOWEVER, he did put it into print in various ways and many times. .......just like he would never have accepted being called an apostle........but that's only ''publicly".........back in '70-72, when cummins was his assistant and the defacto head of the research dept.,......the "behind the scenes" mechanics of vic's research was very heavily influenced by bullinger's methodology and style.......that is to say, vic would have cummins and bernita jess (aramaic expert) and donna randall (his personal and research secretary at the time) as his "research team", and he would have them there with various critical greek texts, the novum testamentum graece (a one volume collection of numerous greek manuscript variant readings compared with several critical greek texts, using the stevens' critical greek text as the main body of text for comparison) aramaic manuscripts (primarily Lamsa"s so-called pedangta text), bullinger's lexicon and concordance to the greek NT,, young's and strongs concordances,.pillai's works on orientalisms, bullinger's figures of speech used in the bible, number in scripture, and witness of the stars, and several other "research tools" all immediately available to him at a head table in the front of the brc......and then we would "work the word" on whatever verses or topic he was "working" at the time....." And God would teach him in the process for these later books.

"various in-residence corps kids were "understudies" to the big three and would also be there and sometimes other invited guests or the entire in-res corps.......then, he would begin and all would be looking up "in their particular field of expertise" whatever text or manuscript evidence there was on whatever verse or word he was pursuing.....all the aforementioned sources would be checked and discussions would ensue.......however, the final results were always determined by what vic decided it "just had to be in the "original'"..(sic!).......catch being as he states in pfal."we have no originals"!!......so basically, "the original text" was totally fabricated by whatever vic said he knew it "just had to be in the original text"........many times the final outcome would be vic saying that he knew this was the way to go on a verse or topic and "we'll just have to keep looking until we find a text or manuscript", or whatever spurious source there may be that will corroborate what he wanted to say........regardless of what the actual, textual or manuscript evidence may or may not have been, what vic decided it just had to say in the original was the final answer!......" Yes! This would drive me crazy. I was privy to tapes of several such sessions, AND there were some SNS tapes where he indicated these procedures were the way things were done. IT WOULD DRIVE ME CRAZY when I heard these things. It bothered me for years, and THEN I finally got it. Now it doesn't bother me at all. I used to think it was all done by precise five sense s research cranking, until I realized, similarly to Jim's Information Theory post a few days ago, that lsot information was irretrievable, especially if the devil got it lost. THEN I fit it with the "God teaching" vpw idea, AS vpw worked it to the best of his non-scholarly ability. Now this doesn't bother me at all. Much has been posted here in this stuff.

"i was there (as cummins' "understudy" while in-res) for many of the lengthy sessions that culminated in the first published edition of jcing and that's exactly how the final research was decided upon.......so, in effect, vic was deciding (via God teaching him as he and others worked it) what the "original" was since we had no "originals" to challenge him with.....in other words, vic was making (no, getting TAUGHT it by the original Author) up the "original, godbreathed word" and it was the research dept's mission to come up with something he could quote or use as evidence to support his "knowing the mind of god"!....... (YES! This too bothered me, but now I get it. Their job was to help us believe what God taught Dr.) that was one of cummins' main jobs when he spent that year in germany at that Institute for New Testament Research......to find texts or manuscripts that would document what vic said it had to be!!!........this was the basis and pattern of what would later be taught to the corps on corps nights as "the literal translation according to biblical useage" crap.......this was also the mold from which all the later YES publications (jcop, jcops, etc.).....were to be pressed." In their EARLY stages. Don't forget the final stages, where Dr and God went over the galleys, sometimes ten times.

"so, even though vic would never allow publicly his writings to be called "godbreathed" But he did print it and sometimes say it, like when he led us into tongues in Session 12. .....you can see from the actual process, how in fact.......whatever vic thought (via God's teaching as vpe worked it) it should say was indeed what it said "in the original" text...........i hope this answers your question raf.....if not lemme know!........peace.......dwbh."

from the second PM, the following excerpts..............

"your question is unique and has an interesting "slant" to it........you see, wierwille had very poor writing skills... But good speaking skills. Moses had bad speaking skills. ......all of his "written works" were never written down by him!........rather, they all started out as transcripts from presentations or teachings he did, or from transcripts made from the recordings of the research team meetings described earlier..........this mental "laziness" dates back all the way to the chimes hour youth caravan radio broadcasts.Moses wasn't lazy. Neither was VPW. They used what skills they had and GOd supplied others to help.

"rhoda wierwille during the van wert days, and then donna randall and karen wierwille martin were the "ghost writer" for all vic's books up until jcop........vic could never muster up the mental discipline (Yet he DID muster up the mental discipline where he had the skills in other areas.) required for any serious writing,......she (donna randall) would transcribe whatever teachings, taped meetings or research team discussions vic wanted to "write" a book from, and then she would actually edit them and put them in a written form for him......then, he would review what he had "written", get the research team together as i described to you.....and then have donna put together the final product......(And then he'd go over it. In earlier books it was Karen, his daughter. For the Orange Book J.Fred Wilson was involved too. He told me often how Dr would proofread and change what he and Karen had edited from the class transcript. It was an involved process, working up the final drafts. I talked with David Craley about this as he was also involved for magazine artidcles. Karen was involved in them too up to the end in 1985) remember, she was his "research" secretary as well as his personal secretary........she taught us early corps english every week during our first year in rez!.....everything from basic english grammar and syntax to business writing and even had a "class" with cummins called "research writing and design" that was to form the basis and format for each individual corps member's "research project" which was supposed to be a rquirement for graduation........even vic's account of how he locked himself in a hotel room for a week in order to "put together" the holy spirit book is a lie!!........all he did was lay out j.e.stiles' book and had rhoda (his church secretary at the time), type it up with some minor changes which he DICTATED to her and then put it in the old printing press (NO! only after many proofreadings was it printed and distributed) ........that's why there were so many subsequent editions of that book......because when he had donna's expertise available to him, he quickly dumped rhoda for the new and vastly improved model."

"once the "writing" process was complete.......those "research" sessions would become the actual "writing" process for all the books that bore his name......it's in that process where the answer to your question lies.........vic probably would not allow anyone to publicly say that his "written works" were "godbreathed"......in that sense you're right.......but remember......he did'nt write any of his books!!......he basically "dictated" them as i described previously........so many, many times, we'd ask a question during those sessions about what the word was "saying" to us in a particular passage or regarding a particular topic and typically the answer would be something along the lines of...."well kids.....it's just got to be this way......i just know it!!"!......and that would settle it!!!....we all just presumed he was speaking by word of knowledge or word of wisdom, because that's the only way he could know it!!!!!......for instance......i remember vividly,......one night we were hangin' at his house and i asked him..."dr.........have you ever been "caught away" to the third heaven and earth?".....(received the revelation in the book of revelation like the apostles john and paul had).........his answer........."well son, you see, there are just some things i'm not at liberty to discuss with you."......now of course, me being the faithful "corps kid" that i was......i knew this meant the answer was "yes", but that god was not allowing vp to tell me outright for whatever super secret spiritual reason...........do you see how that worked????.......he was basically telling me that, yes, god has shown me the revelation but has not allowed me to share it with you yet!!!!!!.........that was the core of vp's "research" process........getting us to assume that he knew what he knew by revelation.....and that if we were indeed "spiritually savvy" enough we'd understand and accept that!"

so, while never stating outrightly that what he was teaching or "writing" was indeed "godbreathed".......that was in fact, by default, what he expected us to believe. (Yes, BUT he also did put it into print and on tape sparingly by comparison) ......else we were just "arguing with god".........phew!........what a flashback your question has brought back to me!!!!......"

so...........that's the way it was.............vic's biblical research by revelation...........i wish you could have seen it in the original!..........it just sits there..............like a duck!..........i apologize for the length of this post..........thanks to those who read the whole thing............i hope an interesting and civil discussion will continue...........................peace.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Mike

[George Aar]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/delusion