VPW and the Snowstorm - What do you believe?

[Ham]

[frank123lol]

Oh well,at least tere was a snowstorm in Chicago Jan of 82,weekend in the word or 40th

anniversary,or some such.The Way put everybody up for a night at the ways expense.

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

Let's not drag Roy Underhill into this. Ham, did you get permission to use the photo? Remember, no plagarism.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Roy Underhill?...I thought it was Craig Martindale working at Home Depot!...but then again, the forehead was too small...

[Ham]

Well.. he's the best woodsmith I know of..

with that old fashioned hammer, I'd imagine he could reduce said window to it's appropriate parts in no time at all..

[leafytwiglet]

Oh well,at least tere was a snowstorm in Chicago Jan of 82,weekend in the word or 40th

anniversary,or some such.The Way put everybody up for a night at the ways expense.

Some body sure messed up their believing on that night.

[potato]

Actually I see no evidence to support fading away, but in fact to the contrary even on eBay the demand for books is high all these years later, even so much that independent book dealers have noticed the buck to be made and have joined in the sale. While the ceiling has dropped on some basic items the market is still quite high on others. That appears to be thriving.

Secondarily I'd submit that the microscopic percent here that are disappointed in the product are by no means a scale to use for what is fading or thriving. I think you will find that most offshoots where the majority of those familiar with the books are, continue in some form to use the books for reference regardless if they agree with all. or part. That accounts for several thousand people as opposed to the 100 or so who post here on a regular basis. Based on that factual evidence as opposed to personal opinion I'd submit thriving is the correct term.

P.S. Edited to say

And I'll add the demand for the books is at a point (due to supply not being available or inflated) that a black market disk with them all scanned in on PDF files has surfaced in recent years for new students to use.

when I look at ebay (and I check regularly), I do not see a high demand for the books. in fact, most auctions for the more common materials end with no bids. only unusual items not available from twi's bookstore seem to get any bids at all.

on more than one occasion, AC grads and corps were directed to buy twi materials if they were spotted for sale to the general public, because no one outside the fold should have access to them. I personally know of more than a few people who had stockpiled twi books.

it's possible (I'd say probable, actually) that all the materials being sold are being purchased by innies or by people in off-shoots hoping to build up their libraries. I can also see cult researchers being interested in the less common materials. that does not equate to the claim of "thriving" for vpw's writings.

I also know there is zero interest in twi books in the used bookstores in my area.

and just because there's a black-market CD doesn't mean the same people who buy that won't buy a hard-bound book if presented the chance. some people just like books.

the one thing I haven't checked yet that would be a good indicator of how vpw's writings might be "thriving" is the academics database, to see if anyone is citing his writings and how they're being referenced. the next time I get access, I'll do that because it would be interesting information.

for now, I don't see a good case for "thriving" and I do see a case of "fading away" although he hasn't quite made it to "obscurity". he simply doesn't have the following he once did.

[dmiller]

Let's not drag Roy Underhill into this. Ham, did you get permission to use the photo? Remember, no plagarism.

Perhaps Ham had too many Guinness beers when posting that, eh?? ;) :D

[Tzaia]

the one thing I haven't checked yet that would be a good indicator of how vpw's writings might be "thriving" is the academics database, to see if anyone is citing his writings and how they're being referenced. the next time I get access, I'll do that because it would be interesting information.

If someone has his stuff in digital format and wants to PM me with that information or where I can locate it, I can run it through TurnItIn and see where it turns up.

[johnj]

someone said the written versions of PFAL were more comprehensive than the audio version of PFAL.

If you compare the PFAL book to the class, it is apparent that the book is a virtual transcription of the first 4 sessions of the PFAL class. You may also recall that for that reason TWI sold all of VPW's books at one time to anyone who paid (not just proven tithers), EXCEPT PFAL, because it had the same content as the first 4 sessions of the class and they wanted you to buy the $40 or $100 class instead of the $7 book. Money, not wide distribution of "God's Word as it had not been known since the first cetury" was paramont to VP.

[dmiller]

someone said the written versions of PFAL were more comprehensive than the audio version of PFAL.

That would probably be Mike. He has less regard for anything AUDIO, vs. the *written word* of docvic. :)

[johnj]

there was a debate above about whether or not VPW said that the Scriptures were terribly corrupted and he was needed to restore them to their originals.

VP wrote "Forgers of the Word" which briefly was available printed with a bibliography for JCNG. It was also distributed in typewritten form to insiders.

"Forgers" said what the title suggests- that over the centuries, "Forgers" had completely rewritten much of Scrioture, deleting things TWI now taught (like JCNG) and adding things that TWI now condemned (like JCIG). He says this very plainly, and says that he would undo the "forgeries"

This was "carte Blanc" for VPW to cross out any verses in the Bible that he didn't like, and write in any "literal translations according to usage" or "original readings" that he wanted. He literally rewrote sections of Scripture. Probably many of you remember crossing out verses like Mat 28:19 (in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit") because it didn't fit VP's theology, and writing in alternates.

Another verse he crossed out was John 21:19 ("by what death he should glorify God") because he didn't like that one either. And no one had the guts to challenge him becausse he was the MOG who taught by "revelation." They didn't challenge him on his promiscuous use of women in violation of his marruage vows, either.

So yes, he did go about rewriting many sections of the Bible, on his own authority. He didn't need evidence. For instance, there are no ancient Greek mansuscripts that delete Mat 28:19, but that didn't bother him. His word was above the NT manuscripts. He also didn't care much what the verses actually said, he just knew what he did not want them to say (it's not good when Scripture contradicts the MOG). Mat 28:19 is an example of this too. He gave different versions of what he wanted it to say, and was consistent only about what parts he wanted crossed out.

[Mark Clarke]

This in no way is meant as a treatise as to weither I had a good or bad time in TWI or what I think of the PFAL class... I am still trying to sort it all out..

That's the worst spell of whether we've had in some time.

(And in the context of discussing the snow storms! Tell me God doesn't have a sense of humor!)

[Mark Clarke]

So yes, he did go about rewriting many sections of the Bible, on his own authority. He didn't need evidence. For instance, there are no ancient Greek mansuscripts that delete Mat 28:19, but that didn't bother him. His word was above the NT manuscripts. He also didn't care much what the verses actually said, he just knew what he did not want them to say (it's not good when Scripture contradicts the MOG). Mat 28:19 is an example of this too. He gave different versions of what he wanted it to say, and was consistent only about what parts he wanted crossed out.

And what's funny is that he didn't even originate that! The theory that the words, "...in the name of the father..." etc., must have been added because Eusebius didn't quote them was first put forth by the nineteenth century Biblical scholar, F. C. Conybeare (1856-1924).

To be fair, other people have quoted Conybeare's theory besides Wierwille, even though there is no foundation for it. But it doesn't even matter because Matt. 28:19 doesn't prove or disprove the Trinity, and even Trinitarians have pointed out that the verse only mentions the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and says nothing about them being three coequal persons in one God or anything else like it.

Edited January 11, 2009 by Mark Clarke

[Oakspear]

someone said the written versions of PFAL were more comprehensive than the audio version of PFAL.

If you compare the PFAL book to the class, it is apparent that the book is a virtual transcription of the first 4 sessions of the PFAL class.

More like the first 7, possibly 8 sessions, John.

I believe the point that Mike was making was that the written materials were more authoritative, not comprehensive, than the tapes. If I remember correctly minor errors were edited out and some other changes made.

[leafytwiglet]

That's the worst spell of whether we've had in some time.

(And in the context of discussing the snow storms! Tell me God doesn't have a sense of humor!)

LOL I was not in Mozilla so I plead wrong browser ... I am a notorious bad speller. and type with many errors... One of my reasons for using the firefox. :)

[WhiteDove]

Yes, it was me who said that. (What? Do you have a file somewhere? Are you stalking me? )

Naw I know where to find you.

It's just that it was such a epic statement I had to take note.

It certainly guarantees the success of the mission, after all if you can't back up your claim made, or argue your point in the face of evidence, one can always just claim they miss wrote their words. Pretty handy sorta like a get out of jail free card I suppose.

[Oakspear]

Naw I know where to find you.

It's just that it was such a epic statement I had to take note.

It certainly guarantees the success of the mission, after all if you can't back up your claim made, or argue your point in the face of evidence, one can always just claim they miss wrote their words. Pretty handy sorta like a get out of jail free card I suppose.

That's certainly an interesting take on what I said, somewhat different than my actual point, which was that sometimes posts aren't clear, not that they can't be backed up or can't be argued. If someone misunderstands my point, it's my place to explain it more thoroughly, not the other person's place to tell me what I really meant. Like I just did.

Very few of us here are writers by profession, trained to use their words in a precise and unambiguous manner. We write things that sometimes aren't clear, then go back and clarify.

[sirguessalot]

very valuable points about antagonism, ham

some of my most relevant learning/healing/transformation

has come from the other 2 millenia of christian experience i found covered in thinnest snow

from the "desert fathers" of Christianity

to the Ars Moriendi

to guys like Frere Roger

has been like trading "God as seen by childlike adults"

for "God as seen by adultlike children"

Edited January 11, 2009 by sirguessalot

[johnj]

someone above mentioned VPW's definitions for the words lambano and dechomai.

In the fact, VP's "research" is ridiculously sloppy and inaccurate. He actually cites 17 different words, not just these two The others are compound words that include lambano and dechomai as part of the words. They are all different words, just as in English compound words like "do" and "overdo" are different words.

Also, VPW's "research ignores about half the occurances of lambano and dechomai that appear in the NT. So he includes lots of words besides lambano and dechomai and doesn't even include all the appearances of L and d.

Basically, VP just did a study of times the King James Version uses the English word "receive," not really a study of Greek words at all.

For all the details on his sloppy and inaccurate "research," see the article "Only Two Words for Receive?" at www.abouttheway.org in the Research and Teaching section.

[Oakspear]

It seemed like Wierwille liked the idea of biblical research, but not the hard work that went into it.

[oldiesman]

We all bought the only I VPW am teaching the True Word stuff.

I can go along with a statement "we all bought that I VPW am teaching the true word".

I think I can say with reasonable certainty that we who hung around twi all once believed that VPW was teaching the true word.

What I disagree with, again, is use of the word "ONLY". VPW said "ONLY I am teaching the truth." Balderdash, he never said that. It is unsubstantiated, inaccurate, and incredible.

Nobody, not even VP says "I am the only source for truth".

(except maybe the RC church ) They certainly teach through their sacraments is the only way to heaven )

[George Aar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

[Mike]

I can go along with a statement "we all bought that I VPW am teaching the true word".

I think I can say with reasonable certainty that we who hung around twi all once believed that VPW was teaching the true word.

What I disagree with, again, is use of the word "ONLY". VPW said "ONLY I am teaching the truth." Balderdash, he never said that. It is unsubstantiated, inaccurate, and incredible.

Nobody, not even VP says "I am the only source for truth".

(except maybe the RC church ) They certainly teach through their sacraments is the only way to heaven )

I think what he claimed is that he "put it all together."

...meaning he collected from OTHER sources all the most necessary and useful items we needed,

and filtered out the bad. It was mostly on THIS point that he claimed unique guidance from God.

He claimed to originate very little. Oldiesman, do you have that quote you found on this last point?

Edited January 12, 2009 by Mike

[oldiesman]

hi Mike, I don't have that quote but in fact I remember VPW saying on tape that the Way wasn't the only source for truth, that much I do remember.

Early in my stay in twi (perhaps sometime in 1973) someone played a tape from 70 or 71 where he taught that groups who teach the rightly divided word are teaching the truth and the way was not the ONLY group who did this. He said that we in twi were the most accurate, comprehensive best source, a ministry where you can get the MOST rightly divided word, but there were other groups out there teaching the rightly divided word in various categories and aspects.

BEST yes, ONLY no.

I wish I could remember the number of this audio tape; I'd love to hear it again because I think it makes a fair portrayal that made perfect sense with everything else I knew about him getting lots of his stuff from other sources.