VPW and the Snowstorm - What do you believe?

[Ham]

my request for "results" really is sincere..

You say you can trisect an ARBITRARY angle with a compass and straightedge.. go ahead, let's see some "results"..

there still exists a fringe set of "kooky" mathmematicians, who get caught up in this, even after Wantzel proved n 1837 it logically just couldn't be done..

Robert Yates said ""Once the virus of this fantastic disease gets into the brain, if proper antiseptics are not immediately applied, the victim begins a vicious circle that leads ... from one outrage of logic to another". (Yates, The Trisection Problem, National Council of Teachers of Mathematics, Washington, DC, 1971, p.57)

I think it's the same symptom and "disease" here.. just a different venue..

[Ham]

I really think that's the results of a "snowstorm" and a doctrine one does not have to "back up on"..

it's like carrying a large millstone.. don't "have to" back up on turns into "can't ever" back up on..

have to constantly polish it, adore it.. justify its existence..

[seaspray]

It is God, not TWI or PFAL that provides us with what we need.

Hey Mark Clarke, it's good to have an opportunity talk with you here at GSC. I'm going to quote a section of text here and maybe it'll help us. Here goes.

Psalms 138:2:

I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy loving kindness and for thy truth: for thou has magnified thy word above all thy name.

God has magnified His Word above His Name. It does not say that about the stars or the planets. He set His Word above His Name for He underwrote it, He put His name underneath it. He guaranteed it. It is just like a check. When I write a check for a thousand dollars and I sign my name, the check is only as good as the signature. How good is The Word? The Word of God declares that it is as good as God for God signed His Name to it. The Word is as much God as God is God. What God said was, was, what God has said is, is, what God says will be, will be. Do you see why we must come back to the integrity and accuracy of God’s wonderful Word? We cannot trust man’s word because man blows about, being here today and gone tomorrow; but the Word of God “liveth and abideth for ever.” That Word endures.

The text is taken from a magazine article Dr. Wierwille published back in late '75 entitled God's Word Endures Forever.

You see Mark, many people are very intent on trashing Dr. Wierwille's name. Then ergo, what he wrote is no good. The trashing of Dr. Wierwille's name does a huge disservice to God's people and the ministry of reconciliation of Jesus Christ. It's not much unlike the day Jesus went to his home town and declared the Word to his own hometown folks. They just weren't having any. This is the apistia type of unbelief that we learned about. They thought they knew him but they really didn't. They wouldn't sit still long enough for the Lord to teach them.

That's one of the reasons the Word Over the World Ambassadors were so successful on the field. How did they know what they were taught and were teaching was true? We just saw it in God's Word, believed it and walked out on it. It worked.

It's a little bit like ice skating. You just lace up the skates and get out on the ice. At first you look like a jerk and fall down a lot. But you're determined and you stay with it. Pretty soon you're gliding around the rink with greatest of ease. You're feeling pretty good and it's fun.

Just some food for thought.

Edited January 21, 2009 by seaspray

[waysider]

It's not much unlike the day Jesus went to his home town and declared the Word to his own hometown folks. They just weren't having any.

We're comparing wierwille to Jesus???

This is the apistia type of unbelief that we learned about. They thought they knew him but they really didn't. They wouldn't sit still long enough for the Lord to teach them.

*************************************************

From "Actual Errors in PFAL"

In PFAL, Wierwille says “apistia” is the kind of unbelief held by people who don’t know enough to believe, while “apatheia” is the kind of unbelief held by people who’ve heard enough, but don’t care.

In truth, the word “apistia” is used of the disciples after the resurrection (Mark 16:14) and of Israel (Romans 3: 1-3). Neither can be said to have not heard enough to believe.

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=4227

Personally, I think it was wierwille's back-handed way of calling his critics fools.

Edited January 21, 2009 by waysider

[skyrider]

The text is taken from a magazine article Dr. Wierwille published back in late '75 entitled God's Word Endures Forever.

seaspray.......welcome to GS and welcome "to the other side of twi propaganda."

I tend to think that most people realize that one's fervor for his/her religious organization will crystallize opinions and experiences favorable to their affiliation. Obviously, you've stated yours'.

Many here at GS, at a point in time, came to a fork in the road........where twi's doctrines and/or abusive leadership diverged from scriptural truths. Clearly, we are admonished in scripture to FORSAKE all appearance of evil........and I witnessed mounting evil in wierwille's actions. On three occasions in my corps training, wierwille vehemently lashed out at an individual ( 3 separate incidents )......wherein verbal abuse and public humiliation the likes of which I'd never seen, nor have seen since. In all truth, wierwille acted possessed.

It matters not to me that you, seaspray, hold to your wierwille-allegiance. I completely understand. Heck, I held onto my convictions even years after exiting twi. But slowly and surely, the "man of God" entitlements that accompanied wierwille were dismantled by my continued search of the scriptures. Today, I realize that wierwille plagiarized heavily, drank heavily, smoked heavily, and did far more in that motorcoach than "study bible." Even further, wierwille counselled martindale to "loosen up sexually in order to be stronger spiritually." The stories of his abuse have surfaced.

As you know, GS tells the other side of twi.

IMO......way corps saw wierwille as is. And now, some 30 years later, I tend to think that many ex-corps have re-evaluated their youthful bliss and allegiance to twi's programs and machinery.

Walking around GreaseSpot is like taking a journey underground at Disney World........it's a whole different perspective than the smiling children and fun rides in the sunshine. Here, one sees how the labor force worked, the trash detail, the grinding of machinery, no time to talk and fellowship and the constant observance of keeping things rolling.

Peace.

[Raf]

Realized yesterday that seaspray does not need a welcome. He's been here before, a few years back (as someone noted). And no, nothing seems to have changed with him. Welcome back, seaspray. Let us know when you have an original thought. I'll alert the rest of the media.

[rascal]

Is anybody else even SLIGHTLY offended that seaspray would compare our contempt for the sleazy slimy wolf that sated his sick appetites on our innocent sisters, who stole that which wasn`t his in God`s name from the trusting generous saints, with Jesus Christ, the son of God, the innocent one who gave his EVERYTHING for us....

That is blasphemy in my book. That is sick and truly an indicator of the toxicity of wierwille dogma.

VPW the most vilely evil man I have ever met or even rarely read of.....compared to the innocent lamb of God who gave his life for us...man

Edited January 21, 2009 by rascal

[Bolshevik]

Correction: Followers of The Way International are duped. The Organization itself is what is evil.

(And seaspray, please note we are talking about the organization known as The Way International, not followers of the Way, the Truth, and the Life, Who is Jesus Christ. There is a big difference.)

They ain't duped. They're jerks. They're liars. They're self-centered. They ain't duped.

[sirguessalot]

thanks for all that ham...i hear ya

i find that the postmodernity of our times certainly lends to a messy broadband of dialogue

...fun for all "ages"...laughing at the same different things

wounded by different things

...healed of different things

as if we are lost in babylon again

and most all the keys to language are buried under a layer of dust

meanwhile...the world is cracking and changing under our feet again

must be another one of those days (of the lord), i guess

as always...i pray we find new ways of using our tongues ...yet again

find a way to navigate this new mess

and funny....i can see you (or someone) and mike (or someone) doing gigs as vaudvillian antagonists

or some such

Edited January 21, 2009 by sirguessalot

[potato]

Is anybody else even SLIGHTLY offended that seaspray would compare our contempt for the sleazy slimy wolf that sated his sick appetites on our innocent sisters, who stole that which wasn`t his in God`s name from the trusting generous saints, with Jesus Christ, the son of God, the innocent one who gave his EVERYTHING for us....

That is blasphemy in my book. That is sick and truly an indicator of the toxicity of wierwille dogma.

VPW the most vilely evil man I have ever met or even rarely read of.....compared to the innocent lamb of God who gave his life for us...man

rascal, I went back and read seaspray's posts from 5 years ago and the most offensive thing I found about him was his troll behavior and his insults to you and Raf. he's a vpw-worshipper and he's made that abundantly (in fact, MORE THAN abundantly) clear.

[sirguessalot]

again...welcome to the crashing of a wave of postmodernity, potato

"hell" to some

"heaven" to others

tho my review of it is mixed

so i find that "simply postmodernity" works well enough

just one more angel on a pinhead

Edited January 21, 2009 by sirguessalot

[potato]

again...welcome to postmodernity, potato

"hell" to some

"heaven" to others

tho i find that "simply postmodernity" works well enough

just one more angel on a pinhead

yes, postmodernity, indeed (can you say that word 3 times fast?)

I love dialogue, but I do have a caveman tendency to want to defend my cave from aggressive invaders. your view may be more "wholesome" in that you're looking at a larger picture than I am able to at this time, having been immersed in my personal struggle for survival.

vpw's supposed revelation goes to the root of the things I've struggled with the past 20 years.

[sirguessalot]

I really think that's the results of a "snowstorm" and a doctrine one does not have to "back up on"..

it's like carrying a large millstone.. don't "have to" back up on turns into "can't ever" back up on..

have to constantly polish it, adore it.. justify its existence..

and perhaps one can only back into a corner so far anyway

...like reaching the end of a line

or as one finds in caving/spelunking

...how there most often is only one way in and out of that hole

or where the millstone can also be seen as being inside out

...and we are inside of it, like being in a cave

i often wonder how "meeting christ in the air" is like "learning to fly"

...in a way that involves learning to jump from "line to line"...or "cavern to cavern"..or "branch to branch"

as if that one little trick alone grants us rapid access to explore the whole/holy tree/system

...like a flying squirrel...we are free to fearlessly explore any line to its natural end

Edited January 21, 2009 by sirguessalot

[Raf]

Is anybody else even SLIGHTLY offended that seaspray would compare our contempt for the sleazy slimy wolf that sated his sick appetites on our innocent sisters, who stole that which wasn`t his in God`s name from the trusting generous saints, with Jesus Christ, the son of God, the innocent one who gave his EVERYTHING for us....

To be offended, I would have to care about his opinion. Since I don't, I'm not. Remember that these folks are quick to condemn us for judging Weirwille, yet equally quick to judge the multitude of people who have come forward to expose the abuses that Wierwille committed. We shouldn't judge him because we don't know the facts, but his accusers? They're all cowards and liars. That judgment is okay, but judging Wierwille by the standards of common decency (not to mention the Bible he held in such supposed high esteem) is out of bounds.

VPW the most vilely evil man I have ever met or even rarely read of.....compared to the innocent lamb of God who gave his life for us...man

Hey, compare ANYONE to Christ, and that person will come up short. And as sinister as I believe him to be, I can think of a great many people more vilely evil.

Don't lose sleep over the comparison, rascal.

[sirguessalot]

I love dialogue, but I do have a caveman tendency to want to defend my cave from aggressive invaders. your view may be more "wholesome" in that you're looking at a larger picture than I am able to at this time, having been immersed in my personal struggle for survival.

vpw's supposed revelation goes to the root of the things I've struggled with the past 20 years.

i can appreciate this potato...20 years is quite a layer of any one life

...there are many kinds of personal struggles for survival that can have little or nothing to do with food, shelter, clothing

so please forgive if any of my cliff-jumping is troubling in any way

...i try to be kind and clear and generalize in my posts so as not to push anyone off an existential cliff

i guess i feel it might be worth something to at least point out the cliffs i see

..."feeling useless" is a particularly bright wound ive lived with for decades

trying to usefully ponder outloud in a crowd is an art, i guess

maybe i should add this signature line to my posts:

...plz feel free to say "woah."

[potato]

i can appreciate this potato...20 years is quite a layer of any one life

...there are many kinds of personal struggles for survival that can have little or nothing to do with food, shelter, clothing

so please forgive if any of my cliff-jumping is troubling in any way

...i try to be kind and clear and generalize in my posts so as not to push anyone off an existential cliff

i guess i feel it might be worth something to at least point out the cliffs i see

..."feeling useless" is a particularly bright wound ive lived with for decades

trying to usefully ponder outloud in a crowd is an art, i guess

maybe i should add this signature line to my posts:

...plz feel free to say "woah."

but this is why I love you, sir. the cliffs are there. we should at least consider them. if I'm too busy pounding heads with my rock, how will I ever notice the possibilities? please continue with your useful pondering out loud.

and, that would make an awesome sig line!

in my case it would not be "woah, stop!" it would be "woah, I should think about that".

Edited January 21, 2009 by potato

[JeffSjo]

:D Did you really mean "out load" or maybe out loud? :D

[waysider]

Exactly!

It's not REALLY about the purity of PFAL at all.

PFAL is just just a song and dance routine in the big show.

A subplot in a convoluted play, designed to divert attention away from the main theme.

A vehicle to deliver the real message of wierwille's supposed "mystic" status.

A magician's device to divert attention away from the mechanics of the illusion.

Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!

Edited January 21, 2009 by waysider

[sirguessalot]

waysider..

for what its worth...

imho, vpw may have had some mystical experiences to interpret

but he was no "mystic," as the word is currently used

history has way too many "mystics" to compare him to

regardless tho...i hear ya...funny too

Edited January 21, 2009 by sirguessalot

[potato]

:D Did you really mean "out load" or maybe out loud? :D

har har, yes Jeff! out LOUD.

some days are just plain dyslexic.

in fact I'm going to edit that because it's just too weird to leave it.

[JeffSjo]

I think that is a real good call potato. :)

[dmiller]

har har, yes Jeff! out LOUD.

some days are just plain dyslexic.

in fact I'm going to edit that because it's just too weird to leave it.

Heh heh! I think most folks are a little dyxlesic every now and then, eh? :lol:

[Mark Clarke]

"Dyslexics of the world, untie!"

(brought to you by DAM - Mothers Against Dyslexia)

[GrouchoMarxJr]

I'll tell you exactly who Victor drambuie breath Wierwille was...he was the Ron Pompeil of Christianity...he was selling vegamatics.

...and we sliced and we diced...or so we tried...the damn thing didn't work! ...and should we marvel? He was laughing all the way to the back of the motorcoach.

[potato]

"Dyslexics of the world, untie!"

(brought to you by DAM - Mothers Against Dyslexia)

I heart that bumper sticker.