VPW and the Snowstorm - What do you believe?

[Mike]

the answer to why all the new revelation is pretty simple to me: the corps... a huge infusion of enthusiastic young people who already had a lot of experience studying the bible. don't you think vpw got to read their papers, listen to them talk about what they were learning, and then teach as much of it as he wanted without crediting the student?

potato,

That could have been the case. If you read that “Light Began to Dawn” transcript that’s been cited several times on this thread you see that the way Dr learned from God USUALLY involved him reading some human author (Corps papers can be included here) and God showing him that such and such at passage was important and noteworthy, and maybe even worth if inclusion in a teaching, book chapter, or mag article.

****************************

I don't feel like I have tried to distract you or insult you.

If I have, I apologize.

Now that page 14 of GMWD (still don't understand why it's not just GMW) is "on the table" perhaps you could elaborate a bit more specifically.

waysider,

I think going that route in GMWD p. 14 will be a de-railment of this thread. It would fill many pages.

I once had a two whole threads on it the subject of hidden spiritual truths that p. 14 talks about. One of those threads is still on the board titled “The Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching of VPW” found here: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...=1005&st=40

On that thread Posts #50,61, and 65 start the ball rolling on this.

Let me know what you think of it in a PM. It’s been years since I read it. Please excuse my aborted attempt to retroactively place a table of contents in there at the beginning. You can see this by the time stamps. It was in the days when unlimited editing was permitted here, not limited to a few hours like it is now. Before I was finished with the table of contents project that policy was changed and I couldn’t finish it, plus all the links are obsolete and the pages are shifted.

The reason there’s a D added to GMW is because long ago they invented four letter codes for all the books in the scripture index booklets. I think it was the way computers were less flexible in the 70’s but I’m not sure. I’ve just stuck with those old codes.

********************

waysider and Twinky,

You both recently mentioned "the scriptures."

I have a number of problems with that idea.

It starts with the loss of the original scriptures.

Then comes the existing ancient scriptures which are fragmentary and which differ from each other quite a bit.

Then much later, like 1000 years later come the critical Greek texts, which were scholars attempts to fix the above problems, but THEY TOO differ with each other.

Then comes the problems with translating to English, where there are hundreds of opinions as to how things should be rendered for many, many verses.

Then comes the problem of reading English versions with a Western mind and Western mental images as to how things are “in the scriptures” even thought they were originally written for an Eastern reader.

Then comes the problem of figurative verses literal interpretations of many passages in English versions.

Then comes all the religious images of God and spirit that we all grew up with that are superimposed onto our reading of English versions.

After all that, I find that figuring out what “the scriptures” say a mammoth task, one that is very subjective and fraught with multiple opinions. Everyone has a different thing in mind when they say “according to the scriptures.” I don’t want to live in that world.

That world if multiple points of view is too confusing for me. I asked God to give me His answer, His point of view. I found out that this is the same problem VPW had in 1942 and that he too was ready to quit, but God gave him something to pass on to people like me. I have closely looked at what was passed on to me, not been at all interested in all the tales of abuse that seem to fascinate many, and liked what I saw.

I find that most people who constantly want to bring up stories of abuse are not very familiar with the contents of what was passed on to me, so I try to help make the contents more familiar. I’m not trying to hurt anyone nor insult anyone. Please allow me to help if you want to see what you missed in PFAL. If not I’ll understand and try to not bother you. Please give me this mutual respect.

Edited January 17, 2009 by Mike

[Twinky]

Sorry, Mike, I don't feel any respect FROM you.

I simply don't have any respect for hypocrisy. There is good precedent for this. I have a recollection that Jesus confronted a few people about it...was it ... false leaders??

I believe the leaders of the church that we are in, are urged to live blameless lives, which surely doesn't mean they never do wrong, but they get their act together pretty quickly and amend their behavior. Isn't there a letter about that somewhere? To Tim...Timmy...(thinking...) Timothy!! And I remember reading about some other guy who'd been a hypocrite who changed his mind and said, Be followers of me. And he laid down specific standards of behavior. Uh... Paul?

I believe YOU believe the things you say, and I respect that. I simply don't respect the author of the books you so venerate. If they work for you, go with it. But please - don't forget Jesus. Don't disregard what he teaches. Make yourself rich in love and compassion. Let those be your actions. Let him be your model.

PS Not recorded anywhere that Jesus saw a snowstorm. He did see a dove and he did have an amazing time being "transfigured". He didn't ask for these and warned against seeking after signs (like snowstorms).

[potato]

That could have been the case. If you read that “Light Began to Dawn” transcript that’s been cited several times on this thread you see that the way Dr learned from God USUALLY involved him reading some human author (Corps papers can be included here) and God showing him that such and such at passage was important and noteworthy, and maybe even worth if inclusion in a teaching, book chapter, or mag article.

yeah, read it already and it's irrelevant to my point. it doesn't make vpw special, it just means he had a lot of material being handed to him on probably a daily basis, and he could pick and choose what he liked the most.

I find that most people who constantly want to bring up stories of abuse are not very familiar with the contents of what was passed on to me, so I try to help make the contents more familiar. I’m not trying to hurt anyone nor insult anyone. Please allow me to help if you want to see what you missed in PFAL. If not I’ll understand and try to not bother you. Please give me this mutual respect.

I didn't miss anything in PFAL and spent many years working the material, to the point that exploration into several of vpw's inconsistencies earned me a bad reputation. the fact that I've forgotten a good portion of it at this point is due to the fact that I've ceased to be concerned about it, I no longer study it, and I've actively replaced it in my brain with other things that are far more interesting.

bottom line is, the only way PFAL stands as a system of belief is if you refuse to consider that vpw could have been wrong, a liar, mistaken, a narcissist, or any of the other things his life seem to indicate, because your ever-expanding base of special revelation given exclusively to this one man (usually by reading and copying other people's material) only works if you close your eyes to the possibility that the things he spoke or wrote could be anything other than revelation. it's a closed system.

I choose never to be that gullible again.

[Twinky]

I didn't miss anything in PFAL and spent many years working the material, to the point that exploration into several of vpw's inconsistencies earned me a bad reputation. the fact that I've forgotten a good portion of it at this point is due to the fact that I've ceased to be concerned about it, I no longer study it, and I've actively replaced it in my brain with other things that are far more interesting.

bottom line is, the only way PFAL stands as a system of belief is if you refuse to consider that vpw could have been wrong, a liar, mistaken, a narcissist, or any of the other things his life seem to indicate, because your ever-expanding base of special revelation given exclusively to this one man (usually by reading and copying other people's material) only works if you close your eyes to the possibility that the things he spoke or wrote could be anything other than revelation. it's a closed system.

I choose never to be that gullible again.

Ditto.

There's so much more knowledge and understanding and application out there.

Pr 11:14 -

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Pr 15:22 -

Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

[waysider]

****************************

waysider,

I think going that route in GMWD p. 14 will be a de-railment of this thread. It would fill many pages.

********************

At the risk of sounding rude, let me clearly state that your response is nothing short of a deliberate effort to avoid the issue.

If you think it would be a derailment or require a lengthy response, though I can't image how a response to one simple paragraph could be too lengthy, the proper thing to do is start another thread to specifically deal with that subject. One would think after all these years of posting, that would be fairly obvious to you.

[DontWorryBeHappy]

hi greasespotters!

typically, this thread has followed a long and winding path in the discussions engendered by Jim's original snowstorm question, and the poll........which, btw, has so far amassed a grand total of 40 votes despite the number of views of this thread now beyond 7000!

for me, the core of the discussion on this thread revolves around a question perhaps more Shakespearian in form than in importance.................that is..............concerning the teachings and "written works" of der victoid, are they GODBREATHED OR NOT GODBREATHED???.......that is the question which has driven the discussions on this thread, especially those directed at or in response to posts by our fellow poster Mike........and, imho, mike has been quite direct in his responses, providing a good deal of information regarding the long, arduous, detailed process he undertook in order to arrive at the answer to that question which ultimately soothed his desire for and completed his personal quest for a "single, or sole, only rule for faith and practice" which he can choose to live his life by.

many greasespotters have had lengthy discussions with Mike along these same lines, myself included. in his post #324 on page 17 of this thread, Mike replied to an earlier post of mine on page 16 of this thread. in my post, i described in detail, my firsthand participation and involvement in numerous "research team meetings" which produced several of vic's so-called "written works"........as i noted in that post, all such meetings were recorded, and Mike even alludes to having heard such tapes at some point in time. Mike responded to this post by inserting his editorial comments in red at various points in my original post...........and, i would like to point out here, that not only did Mike not refute or deny any point i made about the actual "biblical research" PROCESS vic employed, he actually corrobborated the process i described!...........thus, the only difference in our perception of the process is, Mike concludes and believes wholeheartedly, that god almighty was "teaching" vic directly by revelation at various points during the actual process itself, as well as during the numerous "proofreading and editing" sessions he reports followed the meetings. i do not arrive at that same conclusion at all, as i have posted many times in the various threads around here at the spot.

Mike has honestly admitted that his ultimate and final conclusion regarding his conviction that vic's "written works" are indeed, god-breathed, is not based upon "logic", and, that for him, it is not up for discussion or debate. he repeated this stance on this thread in post #329. this is a religious or spiritual belief Mike has willfully and purposely chosen, after much time, study, inquiry, investigation, and personal labor. i respect Mike's right to make that choice, and Mike appreciates the fact that our host, Pawtucket, allows him the bandwith to faithfully and vociferously witness to us , the lost sheep of the flock of wierwille. however, i remain totally convinced myself, that Mike's beliefs regarding these matters are not those i can ascribe to myself.........my conclusions, my choices, based on my owm journey of faith.

thinking that that i could, or should, "prove" to Mike how "wrong" i think his conclusions are produces what? Mike has no need or desire that i prove anything to him about his beliefs!.........they're his beliefs, and i have no just expectation that he should recant from them or reject vic's "revelations". it would be like thinking i could arrange a meeting between mahmoud achmadinajab and shimon peres and they would each convert each other to their respective religious views and the "lion will lie down with the lamb"..........just like these threads, that meeting would likely wind up in a heated debate as to who's the lion and who's the lamb?..........or, prove to me you're the lamb!.........or, did he say lie down or lay down?............how 'bout if i wanna stand next to?...........how bout if i hate cats?..........or sheep?............why does any of this apply to me???..........and, most poignantly, WHY DOES ANY OF THIS MATTER?................i don't care what Mike believes!.........i don't care whather god breathed through a narcissistic, sociopathic, mean-spirited alcoholic, serial sexual predator, or not.............neither affects my own beliefs or actions today!

the actual process of vic's revelatory "writing" prowess has been recounted and corrobborated succinctly on this thread. now, fellow greasespotters and lurkers can examine the facts and "mechanics" of that "spiritual" process which god shared in such a spayshull way with der doktor for themselves.............and thereby arrive at their own conclusions or further questions............i thought leafytwiglet's response alone was enough to make this entire thread worthwhile, but that's just my opinion.

as far as having only one rule for faith and practice by which to live a positive, helpful, peaceable life among and along with the other six-and-a-half billion humans we share this planet with...............i personally believe it is foolish to think that an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being would limit itself to one, finite, book, or set of writings, with which to deal with such a complex, needy, and demanding creation!............for me, as a fiercely independent and forever "unchurched" christian, i have one such "rule" for my spiritual life............THOU SHALT LOVE THE LORD THY GOD WITH ALL THINE HEART, SOUL, MIND, AND STRENGTH, AND THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF!........UPON THESE TWO HANG ALL THE LAW AND PROPHETS.

there are many other "rules" for faith and practice which govern my professional life, clinical skills necessary to do my job at work, rules for interacting with others, society, politics, ad infinitum. they are no less necessary or important than the rule i try to follow in my spritual life...........and, there are many great contributors to my spiritual life besides some dead drunken pervert buried underneath some obnoxious, overdone fountain polluting the otherwise peaceful, natural beauty of rural america!...........to each his own.........unfortunately, there are those who are convinced i'm doomed to hell and everlasting "lack of rewards" for thinking this way..........hopefully their malcontent, intolerance, irrational fear or hatred will come to naught, and the reality of their god and religion will ascend to its true nature..................hopefully........................peace.

Edited January 17, 2009 by Don'tWorryBeHappy

[RumRunner]

Just thinking "out loud." Seems that DWBH's last post (#481) would provide a graceful end to this thread.

[Twinky]

Agreed. Very graceful.

Mods, lock this thread!

[Mike]

in his post #324 on page 17 of this thread, Mike replied to an earlier post of mine on page 16 of this thread. in my post, i described in detail, my firsthand participation and involvement in numerous "research team meetings" which produced several of vic's so-called "written works"........as i noted in that post, all such meetings were recorded, and Mike even alludes to having heard such tapes at some point in time. Mike responded to this post by inserting his editorial comments in red at various points in my original post...........and, i would like to point out here, that not only did Mike not refute or deny any point i made about the actual "biblical research" PROCESS vic employed, he actually corrobborated the process i described!...........thus, the only difference in our perception of the process is, Mike concludes and believes wholeheartedly, that god almighty was "teaching" vic directly by revelation at various points during the actual process itself, as well as during the numerous "proofreading and editing" sessions he reports followed the meetings. i do not arrive at that same conclusion at all, as i have posted many times in the various threads around here at the spot.

I'd say, DWBH, that it's the other way around, you corroborated what I had posted MANY times, and that VPW had openly admitted many times, that it was NOT by divine dictation that he received the revelation for PFAL, but by a sharing process back and forth.

Here's one such early post of mine on this:

I’ve toyed with the idea that the PFAL revelations were first discussed and hashed about, much like Dr says in the Thessalonians Univ. of Life tapes that Paul and Timothy and Silas hashed out Paul’s revelations before they were put into written form. This is NOT the dictation model of written revelation. I’ve discussed this here before, how in Psalms it says (with suitable corrections) that every Word of God is pure, words-of-earth tried in an oven seven times. That sounds like hashing it out, discussing it, editing and revising it until it’s good for consumption. Maybe those booklets were part of that process. The fact that they were discontinued in 1971 should tell us something.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mike, May 03, 2004 14:57

******

Just thinking "out loud." Seems that DWBH's last post (#481) would provide a graceful end to this thread.

I can live with that, but I know no one is going to let this thread end with my name stamped on the end and showing up in the forums that way. So whoever wants to have that "last post by" honor I wont try a come back.

Thanks DWBH for a gracious ending.

Edited January 17, 2009 by Mike

[DontWorryBeHappy]

hi again greasespotters!

Mike........it was not my intent to "end" this thread............perhaps rumrunner and twinky were just typing with tongue in cheek?.........either way, you're more than welcome if indeed, this thread comes to a graceful conclusion!..........i appreciate all the information, personal and otherwise, which you have shared with us regarding your currently held, stedfast beliefs in vic's "revelations". like i said, i think i understand how much time, effort, and soul-energy you've put into your quest and in explaining some of it to us. i'm glad we can agree to disagree, and yet continue to discuss and express our views in a friendly, non-hostile exchange of posts. i am glad your beliefs bring you joy, peace and strength............and i sincerely bid you peace..............btw, please reply, so if the thread is locked, your name will be at its end........i really don't think any of your fellow greasespotters nor any of the mods really would mind that!

edited to remove double post.

Edited January 17, 2009 by Don'tWorryBeHappy

[Mike]

Well hello again DWBH,

Your manners and style have always appreciated by me (and many others) going back to 1971.

I'm beat and I suspect the others are tired too.

If anyone wants more info on this there's always the PM system.

I had no intention of getting into another round of the Mike Wars, it just sort of happened.

Edited January 17, 2009 by Mike

[ModRocker]

Hi Everyone:

I don't see any other mods around, so I'll pop in here. I don't see a reason to lock the thread.

Maybe, as DWBH says, Twinky's suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, but I'm responding in case she wasn't kidding.

There's nothing wrong with a debate, even if one of the people engaging in it holds an unpopular view. I'm sure everyone will tire of it eventually and it will slip down into the lower regions of thread-dom where most threads go.

ModRocker

[Twinky]

ModRocker, it's deviated just a little from the snowstorm...!

Mike, I respect your views, but I've been there and out through the other side. We will not agree but I appreciate your views are strongly held (as are mine). There is no point in my continuing on this thread, said all I have to say, no-one's changing their mind, so it's over and out.

I wish you peace in your heart:

Numbers 6:24-26 The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

25 The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

26 The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

[RumRunner]

Mike........it was not my intent to "end" this thread............perhaps rumrunner and twinky were just typing with tongue in cheek?.........

No DWBH it was not tongue in cheek on my part. After 25 pages of back and forth it seemed like your post was genuinely a good graceful end to the conflict - Mike has his views which you showed respect for - Others have different views - which you showed respect for. I've no doubt there will be other threads with plenty of "lively conflict" which I certainly would rather promote than see suppressed as "good" conflict generates actual thinking as opposed to a small army of robotic name tag wearers.

My apologies if I seemed to send the wrong message

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

Paw and mods, seriously it is time to end and close off this thread. If Mike, What the Hey, White Doce and Oldiesman want to discuss PFAL then direct them to the doctrine forum. We heard and got replies about snowstorms with polling. sorry only 40 people responded to the poll.

[Mod Kirk]

Anyone who wants the thread closed is free to stop posting on it

[Bolshevik]

I agree with Mod Cow. We need to stop posting about whether or not to post.

[seaspray]

You know, I've always been perturbed with VPW's contention that we can follow his rules and get back to "the God-breathed Word". Knowing a tiny bit about information theory, I know that once information is lost, it's lost. And no amount of fiddling will bring it back. He give us no reasoned argument why his method should be considered reliable, which I find somewhat incredible given his non-stop rants about upholding "the accuracy of God's Word".

Jim, this is interesting. Try this for size.

God Almighty, in His omniscience, simply revealed the same information & instruction (the Mystery) to Dr. Wierwile that He had revealed to the apostle Paul (or vice versa). Both had scripture to work with (fiddling?) and both had the necessary help from the heavenly Father.

Edited January 19, 2009 by seaspray

[waysider]

Jim, this is interesting. Try this for size.

God Almighty, in His omniscience, simply revealed the same information & instruction (the Mystery) to Dr. Wierwile that He had revealed to the apostle Paul (or vice versa). Both had scripture to work with (fiddling?) and both had the necessary help from the heavenly Father.

Sorry, seaspray

Equating a drunken, plagiarizing, habitual lying sexual predator with the Apostle Paul seems a bit ludicrous to me.

You might want to spend some time reviewing some of the information on the home page.

Things like "Losing The Way" and "Through The Fog Years" in addition to "Actual Errors in PFAL" and VPW's death certificate which reveals that he died from cancer. (In the Advanced Class, he claimed cancer was caused by devil spirits.)

Not trying to bust your chops, really.

Welcome to GSC.

[seaspray]

Thanks waysider for the GSC welcome.

No need to worry about bustin' my chops. If it gets too rough, I'll just say 'uncle'.

Certainly I am aware of the accusations that have been made against Dr. Wierwille. What I don't understand is how, in a biblical sense, this disqualifies him from simply writing down what God revealed to him. Even if (and it's very unlikely) all the accusations are fact. Truthfully, all this jibber-jabber on GSC about Dr. Wierwille's alledged misdeeds is very reminiscent of the fake trials guys like Stephen, Paul and even the Lord himself endured before they were executed.

[waysider]

Thanks waysider for the GSC welcome.

No need to worry about bustin' my chops. If it gets too rough, I'll just say 'uncle'.

Certainly I am aware of the accusations that have been made against Dr. Wierwille. What I don't understand is how, in a biblical sense, this disqualifies him from simply writing down what God revealed to him. Even if (and it's very unlikely) all the accusations are fact. Truthfully, all this jibber-jabber on GSC about Dr. Wierwille's alledged misdeeds is very reminiscent of the fake trials guys like Stephen, Paul and even the Lord himself endured before they were executed.

Would you be more likely to believe it if you heard first hand testimony from his victims?

There is plenty of that here.

I highly recommend the GSC radio episodes listed on the home page.

You might also want to look at "Actual Errors In PFAL".

Personally, I don't believe God ever revealed ANYTHING to him., especially in light of what we now know about how his hallmark works were plagiarized, in many cases, word for word. He didn't even bother to change the names of the fictitious characters (Maggie Muggins, Snowball Pete, etc.) that he uses in PFAL, a class that he stole from BG Leonard, and others. His "revelations" regarding conspiracy theories in the mid 70s came from propaganda he accessed directly from white supremacy groups and Liberty Lobby. The man was a fraud. It's a startling realization to be faced with after putting so much value in what he supposedly represented. I, for one, definitely would not compare his life to Stephen, Paul or Jesus Christ.

[Bolshevik]

Thanks waysider for the GSC welcome.

No need to worry about bustin' my chops. If it gets too rough, I'll just say 'uncle'.

Certainly I am aware of the accusations that have been made against Dr. Wierwille. What I don't understand is how, in a biblical sense, this disqualifies him from simply writing down what God revealed to him. Even if (and it's very unlikely) all the accusations are fact. Truthfully, all this jibber-jabber on GSC about Dr. Wierwille's alledged misdeeds is very reminiscent of the fake trials guys like Stephen, Paul and even the Lord himself endured before they were executed.

Wierwille's character aside, you seem to imply that you believe Wierwille's writings hold water. Is that so? If so why?

[sirguessalot]

Certainly I am aware of the accusations that have been made against Dr. Wierwille. What I don't understand is how, in a biblical sense, this disqualifies him from simply writing down what God revealed to him. Even if (and it's very unlikely) all the accusations are fact. Truthfully, all this jibber-jabber on GSC about Dr. Wierwille's alledged misdeeds is very reminiscent of the fake trials guys like Stephen, Paul and even the Lord himself endured before they were executed.

stephen and jesus and paul...

...and the other millions of millions of people

who have been oppressed and killed in religious history

(some of whom are being oppressed and killed now, btw)

are being oppressed and killed

not just for their private exclusive cultural belief system

but for their actions and behaviors in this world

for speaking truth to power

for resisting oppression and slavery

for empowering self and others to restore a just balance to systems

...religious, political, cultural, sexual, economic and otherwise, etc...

neither vpw (nor us) got tortured and killed for beliefs or actions, doctrine or practice

because they were not different enough from a big bad beast to alarm a such a system to act

genuinely stand up and speak to truth and suffering and such

and new opponents will likely come looking and worse

depending on depth and degree of nerve being touched

but vpw's life was like a walk through the park ...luxurious

a rock star moment compared to those who actually suffer and die

doctrine and practice seemed motivated largely by a culture of pleasure, materialism, gain,

preaching principles of health and wealth while wasting money, screwing around, drinking and smoking

with a high degree of avoidance and inexperience with real pain, suffering, darkness, woundedness, sacrifice, service, devotion...

his life of behaviour/actions/disciplines shows that had not come close

to witnessing any significant relevant game-changing perspective

that one might compare to saints or prophets

as if he was too wild and immature and undisciplined to become wise

and perhaps a wisdom "he knew that he never knew" hit him fast hard at the end of his life

as if sinners can chase only heavens

while saints can march through the hells

..

thanks for the inspiration, seaspray

Edited January 19, 2009 by sirguessalot

[Broken Arrow]

I

Edited January 20, 2009 by erkjohn

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Thanks waysider for the GSC welcome.

No need to worry about bustin' my chops. If it gets too rough, I'll just say 'uncle'.

Certainly I am aware of the accusations that have been made against Dr. Wierwille. What I don't understand is how, in a biblical sense, this disqualifies him from simply writing down what God revealed to him. Even if (and it's very unlikely) all the accusations are fact. Truthfully, all this jibber-jabber on GSC about Dr. Wierwille's alledged misdeeds is very reminiscent of the fake trials guys like Stephen, Paul and even the Lord himself endured before they were executed.

Wierwille disqualified himself from true Christian ministry by his own lifestyle and behavior...I think that the standards set in the books of Timothy for Christian ministers are quite clear...that is why Wierwille never wrote down "what God revealed to him"...he wrote down (word for word) what other men had written in their books...this is called plagiarism.

You call the testamonies of Wierwille's victims "jibber jabber"?...Hmmm, I find the criticism of Wierwille to be reminiscent of the criticism directed towards Jim Jones, David Koresh and Simon the sorceror.