VPW and the Snowstorm - What do you believe?

[Ham]

*screams from behind the woodshed*

"but PA.. honest, there were no busses out of New Knoxville.."

fast forward about fifty years..

gramps holding young vicster, bouncing him on the knee..

"Ma.. this boy has a far away stare in his eyes.."

"looks like he's starting to see snowstorms pa.."

[Ham]

I'd say it must be something in the water.. but the whole town hardly turned out like this..

[leafytwiglet]

Snip

Actually I see no evidence to support fading away, but in fact to the contrary even on eBay the demand for books is high all these years later, even so much that independent book dealers have noticed the buck to be made and have joined in the sale. While the ceiling has dropped on some basic items the market is still quite high on others. That appears to be thriving.

Snip

P.S. Edited to say

And I'll add the demand for the books is at a point (due to supply not being available or inflated) that a black market disk with them all scanned in on PDF files has surfaced in recent years for new students to use.

Demand for an item is in no way a proof of their accuracy and it is possible that those looking for them are ex PFAL people looking for the books because like many of us until we arrived here they have never tried to go outside of the WAY to get information.

We all bought the only I VPW am teaching the True Word stuff.

not only did we buy it but we were thoroughly convinced that every one else had the lies and and their teachings were corrupted. ONLY VPW had gotten the Word like it hadn't been taught since the first century.

That until he got his enlightenment from God he did not understand the Word of God. That HE VPW had been studying the Bible for years and years.

And buy it we did Hook Line and Sinker. Some of us still do because we have been too afraid that we would get tripped up by the Devils words, or a wrong interpretation of God's word.

Really it all goes back to this one thing

Study God's Word, Not VPW words, study THE WORD the whole word not just the new testament . Learn it and know it so when someone comes along with a wrong teaching you know what the word really says.

So no snowstorm will stop you from going forward.

[WordWolf]

Also, supply and demand act inversely.

If there is nearly zero supply, demand will drive up a price.

If there is HUGE demand, but supply is even HUGER, price will drop.

The seventh Harry Potter book was easy to buy at a discount-

the enormous demand was exceeded by an even more enormous supply.

Thus, a few DOZEN people buying books can make it look like there's a

huge demand-since they exceed the miniscule supply.

[WhiteDove]

Demand for an item is in no way a proof of their accuracy and it is possible that those looking for them are ex PFAL people looking for the books because like many of us until we arrived here they have never tried to go outside of the WAY to get information.

We all bought the only I VPW am teaching the True Word stuff.

not only did we buy it but we were thoroughly convinced that every one else had the lies and and their teachings were corrupted. ONLY VPW had gotten the Word like it hadn't been taught since the first century.

That until he got his enlightenment from God he did not understand the Word of God. That HE VPW had been studying the Bible for years and years.

And buy it we did Hook Line and Sinker. Some of us still do because we have been too afraid that we would get tripped up by the Devils words, or a wrong interpretation of God's word.

Really it all goes back to this one thing

Study God's Word, Not VPW words, study THE WORD the whole word not just the new testament . Learn it and know it so when someone comes along with a wrong teaching you know what the word really says.

So no snowstorm will stop you from going forward.

Well the claim was "fading away" not accuracy or demographics on who purchases the books, those would be a different subject. Demand for an item does however keep it from fading away. It appears the demand is still there. Who or what kind of person that is making the demand is irrelevant to "if it is fading away or not".

By the way I'd tend to agree that a bulk of those interested most likely are people that were /are familiar with the books. I'd guess though that many of them have or had a few sets around as most of us did. We have no factual evidence on why they would want more or what the plans are for them, but it may be possible that it is to give it to someone that does not have one. I'm sure some are just replacements for lost books as well. In any case a defense for fading away would not be if you feel they are accurate or not, again I'd tend to agree they are not in places. Accuracy and demand are not the same issue either. But the fact remains they are in demand they are selling even now at prices above the original retail used. Any honest person including by the way book dealers ,who have no stake in accuracy or not or the way in general, can see that demand is there. There is no evidence presented that any fading is present only demand.

Also, supply and demand act inversely.

If there is nearly zero supply, demand will drive up a price.

If there is HUGE demand, but supply is even HUGER, price will drop.

The seventh Harry Potter book was easy to buy at a discount-

the enormous demand was exceeded by an even more enormous supply.

Thus, a few DOZEN people buying books can make it look like there's a

huge demand-since they exceed the miniscule supply.

Agreed, but if people are laying down cash for an item it ain't fading it is quite the opposite in demand.

Even with the supply problem fixed with the disk which by the way has been freely distributed, the demand to spend money on an item that one could view for free is still there.

[WhiteDove]

By the way I'm not saying that they will ever be on the best seller list or even in the top 100 list of Christian books. It's highly doubtful. But demand is still there for them and I've seen no evidence presented by the way for the claim they are fading GOT ANY? Even here people consistently mention that they sold their books for cash. Looks like an active market to me.

Now of course if you would like to recant the argument to read among the small percentage of Greasespot posters the books are fading away , You'd get no argument from me there.

Edited January 10, 2009 by WhiteDove

[waysider]

"I have a snow shovel, but I'm not going to let YOU use it!"

[Oakspear]

And the same would be true for the vice versa Yes ? But it never seems to work that way. When faced with hard evidence and no explanation for it ,the weasel is to bring up the tired old argument that he said and meant different things. That supposedly dismisses why the print des not line up with the claim. If that in fact is true as suggested then establishing a pattern of behavior is certainly credible in evaluating any words that individual says. If someone is consistently misleading as some assert then it is logical to consider that in evaluating ones words. It's common place to build a profile based on past performance. Given the general argument that what was said was not what was meant, or done, it certainly should not be surprising in the case of we and us. Unless of course one would like to recant the former argument leaving no pattern to consider.

You are addressing statements that are not being made on this thread in order to make your point. The poster that made the point that Mike was representing Wierwille's words as meaning something different than what he actual said or wrote did not, at least on this thread, make the argument that Wierwille's words did mean something different than what he actually said or wrote.

If a poster did this, i.e. claiming that at the same time Wierwille's words did mean exactly what he said and that they didn't mean exactly what he said, that could be construed as inconsistancy, or maybe even hypocrisy, if both situations were identical.

Each situation must be looked at indivdually, not generalized.

[WhiteDove]

"I have a snow shovel, but I'm not going to let YOU use it!"

Well I have a Disk .but I'd let you use it , I'd even give you your own guess that's the difference between us. :huh: :D :blink:

[Oakspear]

Last night I prayed...I said God could have it all...I was ready to check the whole thing...and he spoke to me audibly and said "It's chuck, not check you idiot, use a spell checker"...then I said, "if PFAL is really a bunch of hokum, make it snow".

And sure enough it snowed last night, check the weather report for Lincoln Nebraska. There was even snow on the gas pumps.

[WhiteDove]

You are addressing statements that are not being made on this thread in order to make your point. The poster that made the point that Mike was representing Wierwille's words as meaning something different than what he actual said or wrote did not, at least on this thread, make the argument that Wierwille's words did mean something different than what he actually said or wrote.

If a poster did this, i.e. claiming that at the same time Wierwille's words did mean exactly what he said and that they didn't mean exactly what he said, that could be construed as inconsistancy, or maybe even hypocrisy, if both situations were identical.

Each situation must be looked at indivdually, not generalized.

But this poster has made that argument here. it is common record "that belief" is a rebutal for when factual evidence is presented and no explaination can be mustered up. It's the escape all claim that what was said and meant were different. It is common to site a prior case or example to argue your case. Whats good for one is good for another. I'll reserve the right to use the same argument.

[leafytwiglet]

Last night I prayed...I said God could have it all...I was ready to check the whole thing...and he spoke to me audibly and said "It's chuck, not check you idiot, use a spell checker"...then I said, "if PFAL is really a bunch of hokum, make it snow".

And sure enough it snowed last night, check the weather report for Lincoln Nebraska. There was even snow on the gas pumps.

Snicker

[Oakspear]

So, you agree with Mike that Wierwille didn't say what he meant in the PFAL book and other quoted writings? That Mike's interpretation is to be preferred over what Wierwille clearly wrote?

[WhiteDove]

So, you agree with Mike that Wierwille didn't say what he meant in the PFAL book and other quoted writings? That Mike's interpretation is to be preferred over what Wierwille clearly wrote?

No I agree that it is a possibility and that he has a right to offer it without a condesending remark following.

Besides wasn't it you who said

Very few of us here are writers by profession, trained to use their words in a precise and unambiguous manner. We write things that sometimes aren't clear, then go back and clarify. I suppose that would be a possibility for Vp as well.

[Oakspear]

Yes, it was me who said that. (What? Do you have a file somewhere? Are you stalking me? )

I agree that Mike has a right to offer his opinion. In this case his opinion doesn't have much to support it, other than wishful thinking. Wierwille, for all that I disagree with many, if not most of his conclusions, taught and wrote that it was possible to determine what the originals said by keys to research, Mike denies that this is what Wierwille taught and offers that what Wierwille was really teaching was that you couldn't determine what the originals contained, which is why PFAL was written. Of course you have the right and privelege to maintain that this is a legitimate, logical argument based on some posters arguing that Wierwille didn't mean what he said. I maintain that your argument is illogical and irrelevant. It has no bearing on the strength of Mike's position. Another point is that generally those who take the position that Wierwille didn't mean what he said he meant say so because either his actions didn't agree with what he said, or he spoke or wrote contradictory things.

The snowstorm. I believe there are more reasons to disbelieve it than to believe it.

[leafytwiglet]

BUT VPW didn't just write about the snowstorms he spoke about them.

They were used to convince people that he was in direct communication with GOD.

TO give sum and substance to what he said and taught.

SO it goes back to were they real or made up.. And all the side wrangling between different posters is just a distraction from what is being asked.

And the reality is those who want to believe that VPW heard from God believe he did either see or getr a snow storm once twice possibly three times from God for various reasons

and those of us who find not just the written word of TWI and VPW but The walk of him and many of us that followed him full of holes. we think he made it all up because of a glaring lack of real physical evidence that even one of the snowstorms happened.

edited for more clarity

Edited January 10, 2009 by leafytwiglet

[WhiteDove]

And all the side wrangling between different posters is just a distraction from what is being asked

Perhaps if posters would not inject personal opinion as fact, with no offering of any proof of said claim, then others would not need to "wrangle" the truth out.

[George Aar]

Well, this is getting a little off the beaten path, but hey, we're on page 11 or so, it's about time.

Does anybody else remember the TWI Fine Arts Museum in the Sidney House? There they had the very window that His Holiness VP peered out of on the blessed fall day in Ohio. It was all restored, and sanded and painted and mounted in some sort of display rack. Yes, as you can well imagine it was a moving experience to be in the presence of such an historical artifact. :blink:

It was at about that time (of my first visit to said museum) that I had my first really serious attacks of doubt, as to the whole mission of WayWorld. What with seeing the various Holy Relics that the museum curators had on display, I found myself doing a whole lot of head shaking.

Nevertheless, it still took a few more years for reality to sink in...

[hiway29]

I had forgotten about the window on display. I recall wondering how they glommed on to it. Did they buy the building just to salvage the window ? Or did they save it when the joint was being torn down ? I know I wasn't moved by it's presence.

That was some display in the Sidney house. Besides the window, I recall a lot of Meg K*sh art, and maybe the painting of the 4 'non crosses' that hung in the back of the BRC for a long time.

I remember working in the kitchen of the Sidney house one night for some hot shots wedding dinner. I have no idea how I wound up doing that since I wasn't corps, staff, nor knew the people celebrating. This is a real head scratcher. What the heck was I doing ?

[skyrider]

Well, this is getting a little off the beaten path, but hey, we're on page 11 or so, it's about time.

Does anybody else remember the TWI Fine Arts Museum in the Sidney House? There they had the very window that His Holiness VP peered out of on the blessed fall day in Ohio. It was all restored, and sanded and painted and mounted in some sort of display rack. Yes, as you can well imagine it was a moving experience to be in the presence of such an historical artifact. :blink:

It was at about that time (of my first visit to said museum) that I had my first really serious attacks of doubt, as to the whole mission of WayWorld. What with seeing the various Holy Relics that the museum curators had on display, I found myself doing a whole lot of head shaking.

Nevertheless, it still took a few more years for reality to sink in...

Yeah......the Holy Relics of wayworld.

And, another little tidbit off the beaten path.....but it does add to wierwille's "visions." I distinctly remember sitting with my inrez group at Camp Gunnison in 1981 as Wierwille expounded on his vision of his incredible WayCamp. Of course, the folklore of these mighty grounds were going to reach far and wide as a unique restaurant would be built high above the Gunnison river (where the water tower was located). Way-people and travelers alike would partake of the restaurant and lodging and white-water rafting and fishing and horseback riding.

Naturally, camp gunnison would be the latest and greatest....another P.T. Barnum sell, for sure. The "family experience" would be testimony to the things of wierwille's way. Heck, even the Way-Brand.....like for cattle branding......was being promoted and Way Productions was becoming "westernized" with songs, and tunes, and High Country Caravan, and "Branded." Lots of energy and promotion was pushing wierwille's "vision".......and more cabins were built, etc. Even wierwille plugged the way-retirees to build a cabin at Camp Gunnison....to live there until death and then, donate it to twi.

The "vision" never materialized. Nada....none.....zippo.

Lots of scheming and plugging and marketing..............yet, splllaaaaaaat.

IMO, another example of wierwille's (marketing) "visions"........so, NO, when it comes to the snowstorm story, I seriously doubt it.

The closer one viewed wierwille UP-CLOSE..........the more doubts arise.

[leafytwiglet]

So when was the "museum Built"???

or Open as it were.

[George Aar]

So when was the "museum Built"???

or Open as it were.

LT,

The Sidney House was a (I think) Victorian mansion, built in Sidney, Ohio, probably late1890s or so. Somewhere along the line it was purchased by WayWorld (Mid '70s?) and converted into a museum of sorts. After Wierwille's death and the decline of TWI, the contents were sold off and/or relocated and the building was sold about 1988 or so.

HWY29, IIRC, the WayBuilders bought the window from the building's current owner or maybe they'd heard that the windows were being replaced or somesuch, and just grabbed it up. Imean, it was just an old woodsash, single-pane window. The memories are a little vague at this point...

[waysider]

I remember the Sidney House as well.

The Fellow Laborers were dispatched there as part of some sort of holy toilet cleaning mission.

We slept on the floor of the main area in our sleeping bags and had some sort of sack lunches supplied.

I recall how very odd it seemed that we, who prided ourselves on not being tied down by property, were suddenly in an acquisition mode. It all makes sense now.Wierwille was slowly building some sort of Branson-like empire http://www.branson.com/ at multiple locations but the dream never materialized.

[Ham]

So the big question: what happened to the window? Was it sold at auction to "grace" somone's otherwise drab kitchen? Sent to the landfill? Or.. held hostage at a secure storage facility deep in way world?

[Ham]

"we have our BEST PEOPLE (wood)working on it.."