Prosperity Doctrine and the Current Economic Situation

[Bramble]

I was in TWI in the nineties, when to have a financial(or health) need was a grave personal weakness and error in your walk as a believer. Even worse, your weakness affected the strength of the 'good' believers and you were viewed with spiritual suspicion as an open conduit for devil spirits into the Household.

After we left TWI I ran into the health and wealth type churches, where if you don't have it, it is some type of lack you must overcome because God is just waiting to load you with goodies.

In contrast, I was raised Roman Catholic, where poverty health and financial struggle were seen as not at all an indicator of spiritual health.

So now I'm curious. How has the economic realities of our times affected this doctrinal belief in the churches that follow it? Are they mustering to give aide to the needy? Are they cold shouldering their needy, like TWI did? Are they moving church monies into aide and relief programs?

I know our small town version of a mega church( a couple thousand members where most congregations are closer to 100 members) has decided to build a huge church complex on the edge of town, so from what I've picked up from co workers etc(hubby's boss is an elder in this church) is that they are pretty much unchanged in focus at this time.

It seems to me that this doctrinal belief could buckle somewhat under the current conditions. I know it didn't seem to fit into our 'real' world after we left TWi.

[geisha779]

I was in TWI in the nineties, when to have a financial(or health) need was a grave personal weakness and error in your walk as a believer. Even worse, your weakness affected the strength of the 'good' believers and you were viewed with spiritual suspicion as an open conduit for devil spirits into the Household.

After we left TWI I ran into the health and wealth type churches, where if you don't have it, it is some type of lack you must overcome because God is just waiting to load you with goodies.

In contrast, I was raised Roman Catholic, where poverty health and financial struggle were seen as not at all an indicator of spiritual health.

So now I'm curious. How has the economic realities of our times affected this doctrinal belief in the churches that follow it? Are they mustering to give aide to the needy? Are they cold shouldering their needy, like TWI did? Are they moving church monies into aide and relief programs?

I know our small town version of a mega church( a couple thousand members where most congregations are closer to 100 members) has decided to build a huge church complex on the edge of town, so from what I've picked up from co workers etc(hubby's boss is an elder in this church) is that they are pretty much unchanged in focus at this time.

It seems to me that this doctrinal belief could buckle somewhat under the current conditions. I know it didn't seem to fit into our 'real' world after we left TWi.

I hope that belief buckles under something Bramble. I think it really misses the greater picture of Christ message. So much of what He said was to feed, clothe and serve the poor. . . most of the Christians I know do this. . . many at great sacrifice to themselves. Then again, they don't believe it is about them anyway. :)

My in-laws are atheists and have spent their adult lives doing this. . . I have such love and respect for them. . . we are close. I can relate more to their lives than I can to those health and wealth Christians.

There is NOTHING wrong with having. . . . but I don't think it is the point of the gospel. . . and it really makes me sad at times.

As Christians our lives are not our own. . . we are servants. . . it doesn't matter who the poor are either. . . from Christian to crimminal. . . muslim to gay. . . we are to serve. To lay down our lives if need be. It isn't even about this life, so when I hear Joel Olstein or Joyce Myer. . . I just wonder.

I have had plenty and I have had want. . . when I need. . . I am down on my knees asking. . . when I don't need. . . I am asking less. Hmmmmm??

Right now we are dealing with some of these issues at our church. Exactly the same as you mentioned really. . . but it has opened up a real dialogue and it has been productive.

My heart is that people see God. . . as He is. . . He always supplies what I need. . . sometimes what I want.

I am thankful for all I have.

Since it is the doctrinal forum, I wanted to add this. . . I know you are a wiccan, but . . indulge me. . . . please :)

It is my belief that when God created us. . . it was for worship. . . every good thing He gave us. . . food, love, marriage, sex, comfort, and most of all fellowship with Him was to be recieved with such gladness that it resulted in true worship. . .

Things got knackered. . . as they do. . . and in His perfect plan Jesus redeemed us. . . so that all of that is now possible. . . to recieve with such gladness the good things of God and the result is worship. Not greed or want. . . gratitude and worship.

That is my 2 cents. . . I love that YOU brought this up!!

Edited January 2, 2009 by geisha779

[Bramble]

I am somewhat involved in a Catholic Charities food bank here in town and know that even here where we haven't seen tons of lay offs, the bank was emptier than it has ever been at Christmas. Normally they try to do a turkey and trimmings box to their regular folk, those that live on retirement wages and disability, mostly, and they were way short of the number needed. It seemed like the churches that responded the most were the mainline churches who have a long history of such charities. Yet those are the churches with the smaller numbers and aging populations. Which is sad and a little scary--where will the charities be in 10 to 20 years as these folks age and die?

[George Aar]

I think you're missing the basic appeal of such doctrines, Bramble.

The concept is not to cater to the wealthy and well-disposed, but rather to those who desire to be! It's just a way to get money out of those that can least afford it. It doesn't seem to be the case that "Prosperity Doctrine" churches do exceptionally well in affluent areas, but rather in areas where there is serious, tangible need.

Like all religion (IMNSHO) the idea is to simply sell false hope and false promises to the desperate. There never seems to be a shortage of such marks, and likely are more plentiful in bad times than good.

Such a swell way to make a living, huh? Fleecing the needy, how loving, how Godly, eh?

Yeah, I'm impressed...

[geisha779]

I am somewhat involved in a Catholic Charities food bank here in town and know that even here where we haven't seen tons of lay offs, the bank was emptier than it has ever been at Christmas. Normally they try to do a turkey and trimmings box to their regular folk, those that live on retirement wages and disability, mostly, and they were way short of the number needed. It seemed like the churches that responded the most were the mainline churches who have a long history of such charities. Yet those are the churches with the smaller numbers and aging populations. Which is sad and a little scary--where will the charities be in 10 to 20 years as these folks age and die?

Secular food banks were more empty as well. . . it is the economy . . . . more need. Bramble many many of the Christian kids . . . kids LOL . . . in their 20's. . . are serving more and more in churches. Doing missons and here at home. The plight of the poor is not being ignored or forgotten. . . your area may be a small snap shot, but there is a trend with young Christians. . . to serve the needy.

Where Christ heart is. . . there will be help.

I am hoping the prosperity gospel dies a quick death. . . it is looking that way. . .

I have to agree with George Aar. . . it is a scam to fleece the flock. It isn't what all churches and ministry is about. . . seems to be maybe, but it isn't.

[Mister P-Mosh]

Although I'm no longer Christian, this is one of the areas that the bible is pretty clear on. Jesus is quoted as saying in Matthew 19:24:

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

[kimberly]

I think the point of the epistles is to have. If you don't have it how are you going to give to him that needs?

There is a radical church in town that I attend from time to time. The teacher/speaker is hard core about loving EVERYBODY everywhere all the time. They are very different. I do like their focus most of the time. My son likes the youth fellowships. They tackle topics with the youth that most churches would consider taboo. I am telling ya, the kids love this church.

Everytime the word is put out that the local foodbanks are in need this church announces it and tractor trailers are filled with food to be distributed to these foodbanks. They gave a total of $100,000.00 (in cash besides the food) to the foodbanks and the free clinic in 2008. This past Christmas this church bought 1500 pairs of shoes and winter coats for all 5th graders in our district. Something like 50% of 5th graders have never had a new pair of shoes because they get hand me downs. Last Christmas this church bought shoes and coats for all children in one elementary school. They also gave money for a new play ground to be built in the most needy elementary school in the district. Their attitude is we are to give to the community.

Once a year they buy two homes. One is given to a single mother in need and the other to a widow in need.

This church has free marriage and financial counseling for however long you need it.

[sirguessalot]

seems to me the prosperity gospel, religious and otherwise,

is a very big part what invited the current economic situation.

and it seems to be happening every four generations or so

regardless of the religious languages of the land

yet it also seems as if some form of relatively radical devotion

to some form of post-materialist lifestyle

is a hallmark of all transformative monastic movements of history

...as if the deep authenticity of religious movements form in the wake of such unchosen wilderness experiences

...that is, before they are linguistically hijacked once the desolate conditions are forgotten

and as if our most profoundly transformative experiences of God are most likely to occur

in moments of awe and radical fortunate grace...

...and when things fall utterly and hopelessly apart

either way...like both birth and death...they tend to hit us out of nowhere and enlighten us quite against our will

even demonstrating for us if we are paying attention at all...

...how out of the failure and collapse of an order

...arises a higher order

came across this somewhere once...

“Everyone is called to be a monk today; every-one undergoes the desert experience, like it or not. The call is general. The Western world is undergoing a deep spiritual experience, and, so far, not doing too well.

It is this climate of chaos, this time of disintegration, that can be a grace. The ancient monks who went out into the desert found just this experience. Everything they had confidence in fell apart in that wilderness. Faced with the onslaught of chaos, they were tempted to despair, for they found the faith they had was too weak to sustain so great an upsurge. Yet, in their distress, they prayed for faith and faith was given them.

If anything is needed in this hour, it is men who can understand what is going on there, can interpret it, manage with it. To be a monk in this time, then, is really to be the man of the hour. No man in the Church is more necessary, more useful. The desert is the monk's world, and today the world is a desert."

Anonymous

Edited January 11, 2009 by sirguessalot