That is why when pop paper hit the fan and Chris did what he did I thought LCM is not as (your word here) "bright" and this is so true VPW KNEW it better than anyone LCM was his work and VPW knew what the work was.. he had seen people leave his teachings He saw good friends say I do not think so VICTOR , but not LCM he was a sold out comminted to VPW guy.
but did not have the same brain or ability VPW did to build something without mass approval,he was a yes man that is why they got along LCM is as much a victim as anyone eles.
After VPW death LCM was afraid very afraid he knew he didnt have the ability VPW did and to keep the whole show going he did what most incapable people do they demand loyalty and become paranoid with good reason I suppose. and they instill fear in others. Maybe VPW didnt want his ministry to continue on as he thought he should I do not know but I wonder why he chose LCM, maybe it was his biggest regret and mistake.
I think VPW was very much like the fictional character, Harold Hill, in Meredith Willson's "The Music Man".
He knew full well he was really a con man but reveled in others' heroic perception of him. Beneath it all, he never lost sight that it was a scam. LCM, on the other hand, accepted the myth of heroism while ignoring the reality. Maybe that's where wierwille blew it. He failed to realise that LCM couldn't separate reality from illusion.
One can easily imagine the brutal politicking that must have been going on between the upper echelons of TWI after VPW's dust had returned to the earth. Particularly when the cold-eyed political fighters saw that Disco Craig was left in charge of the tens of millions of dollars in the bank and all that lovely real estate. The sharp elbows were effective for a short while, but soon even they could land few blows against the blackmailers. My dear, the blackmail must have been rampant! What things Chris Geer must have seen go into the twi lock box during his days as valet and driver, eh? Ah, bless your heart, I love you.
And all this coming towards Craig, dear Disco Craig, who couldn't even perform a proper pirouette on the dance stage.
I think that Wierwille only pushed those he knew that he had a hold on, like the time he told an entire Way Corps group that they were thrown out, but later relented if they would...I forget what they had to do, but they all came back. Could he have done that with "the ministry" at large? No way!
You wanted to put up a Christmas tree? Skip the Rock of Ages? Play banjoes during twig? No problem, just keep the money coming!
As it turns out, Martindale was a blithering idiot. He dismantled the 3 biggest money makers that twi had...the pfal class, the wow program and the roa!...unbelievable!
...and then he goes into a homophobic rage and becomes hysterical...what?...he finally found out his wife was gay?...Is that why Eve became a lesbian? Good grief, he was accusing people of being gay that weren't gay!..."spiritual suspicion"?...what the f **k is that? Did he just make it up as he went along?
...and why did Vic choose this moron?...My guess is that Vic knew he was running a cult based on his own charismatic personality and he therefore, picked someone that was dynamic and charismatic. Had he selected Walter Cummins, over half the people posting here would still be going to twig.
Vic knew it had no real substance...he was a con man. He tried to let the Okie in on the secret when he told him to "loosen up" in his sex life... but the Okie was too dumb to figure it out...he really thought he was Joshua!...when in fact he was the dancing Okie...Aquaman!
Wierwille was already becoming marginalized by 1980. Here's the background.
That was the summer that my first husband and I had been given jobs on staff at Rome City. But when my husband decided to get drunk at the ROA, he went to Wierwille for guidance, then came home to announce that we were being transferred to Phoenix. I was livid, and I tried the next day to see Wierwille. I was not allowed to speak to him, but got as far as Don and JAL.
JAL said something that resonated with me. He told me that since my husband had gone to Wierwille, there was nothing he could do, but that "it didn't have to be done that way." I took it to mean that it all could have been kept from him, and the outcome would have been different.
I think Wierwille chose LCM because he wanted a perfect disciple, the perfect narcissist's foil. He had it in Howard, until Howard betrayed him. Others worked around him, and he knew it. I watched Wierwille trying to groom LCM in 1979 while we were in the Corps. I doubt Wierwille cared much what happened to the ministry beyond his death. He just wanted to die on a pedestal.
I think LCM knew he was in line for the presidency, so he knew enough to play along. Heck, maybe he really thought that transferring the mantle to him meant he now spoke for God.
Wierwille was already becoming marginalized by 1980.
Definitely.
Even though I was no more than a non-corps staffer, it was clear that VPW's presence at HQ was considered something of an annoyance by the cabinet. They had their agenda and goals and didn't particularly like their peaceful and orderly routine disrupted by VP's edicts.
My guess is that Vic knew he was running a cult based on his own charismatic personality and he therefore, picked someone that was dynamic and charismatic. Had he selected Walter Cummins, over half the people posting here would still be going to twig.
Seems likely. I just can't see Walter going off on random tirades and driving people off. On the other hand, he might have been easier to remove by the more ambitious leaders than Craig would have been.
As it turns out, Martindale was a blithering idiot. He dismantled the 3 biggest money makers that twi had...the pfal class, the wow program and the roa!...unbelievable!
...Had he selected Walter Cummins, over half the people posting here would still be going to twig.
Vic knew it had no real substance...he was a con man. He tried to let the Okie in on the secret when he told him to "loosen up" in his sex life... but the Okie was too dumb to figure it out...he really thought he was Joshua!...when in fact he was the dancing Okie...Aquaman!
Groucho, you are right. Had Walter, John S., and Gary Curtis been VP's seceesors, I still would be in TWI today(includes Ralph D.) and if ROA were still going on today, yep spend money like crazy.
Even though I was no more than a non-corps staffer, it was clear that VPW's presence at HQ was considered something of an annoyance by the cabinet. They had their agenda and goals and didn't particularly like their peaceful and orderly routine disrupted by VP's edicts.
Hmm... interesting. So, VP sees he's losing power BEFORE he steps down. He wants to go out on top, no matter what the long-term consequences so he installs Craig as his successor thinking he can control such a sicophantic idiot from the sidelines. But once Craig is made king, he and the rest of the BOT pretty much ignore Vic completely because the BOT have now got little Craig's full attention. Nice. I think this is the first time it all fits for me... I knew doc Vic was feeling left out once Craig was in charge but I hadn't realized how early on it had started. Very interesting.
The rest I had pretty much pieced together:
A petulant Vic throws a few pity-parties for himself (some teaching tapes I remember hearing) but none of the leadership respond. He then travels to Scotland to throw himself a BIG pity party with someone he thinks will back him up. But the joke is on him because the travel wears him out and he comes home on his deathbed. His actions, however, leave the door wide open for Geer to swoop in and claim his true VP loyalty in the face of the obvious disregard the BOD had been showing old Vic. Sweet.
Once the first strike was made, the same leadership that had grown to disregard VP now show their utter contempt for Craig and start carving out their own little fiefdoms from twi's turf. Poor Craig (who I think actually believed his own press) struggles to regain control until he finally realizes he needs to cut his losses, shore up what is left, and go from there. He sends out his loyalty letter.
And from that point on his entire focus is on revenge toward those who wronged him, and purging out potential traitors before they have the chance to do it to him again.
Amazing how little of this I realized at the time... ((sigh)).
Keep in mind that vpw was an alcoholic, albeit a reasonably functional one. People with that condition have a couple of traits in common. They are very good at hiding what's really going on and presenting a good front to the public. This is easier if they are in charge (of a family, a business, a cult) and harder if they are, say an employee.
Secondly alcoholics usually are impulsive and emotional - their decision are based on this not always logic. Looking back you can see patters, but that doesn't mean they did what they did because they thought it through.
He probably believed his own bull stuff Most meglomaniacs do. So I wouldn't read too much logic into the history of things.
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pond
I agree.
That is why when pop paper hit the fan and Chris did what he did I thought LCM is not as (your word here) "bright" and this is so true VPW KNEW it better than anyone LCM was his work and VPW knew what the work was.. he had seen people leave his teachings He saw good friends say I do not think so VICTOR , but not LCM he was a sold out comminted to VPW guy.
but did not have the same brain or ability VPW did to build something without mass approval,he was a yes man that is why they got along LCM is as much a victim as anyone eles.
After VPW death LCM was afraid very afraid he knew he didnt have the ability VPW did and to keep the whole show going he did what most incapable people do they demand loyalty and become paranoid with good reason I suppose. and they instill fear in others. Maybe VPW didnt want his ministry to continue on as he thought he should I do not know but I wonder why he chose LCM, maybe it was his biggest regret and mistake.
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waysider
Disclaimer---The following is personal opinion
I think VPW was very much like the fictional character, Harold Hill, in Meredith Willson's "The Music Man".
He knew full well he was really a con man but reveled in others' heroic perception of him. Beneath it all, he never lost sight that it was a scam. LCM, on the other hand, accepted the myth of heroism while ignoring the reality. Maybe that's where wierwille blew it. He failed to realise that LCM couldn't separate reality from illusion.
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OperaBuff
One can easily imagine the brutal politicking that must have been going on between the upper echelons of TWI after VPW's dust had returned to the earth. Particularly when the cold-eyed political fighters saw that Disco Craig was left in charge of the tens of millions of dollars in the bank and all that lovely real estate. The sharp elbows were effective for a short while, but soon even they could land few blows against the blackmailers. My dear, the blackmail must have been rampant! What things Chris Geer must have seen go into the twi lock box during his days as valet and driver, eh? Ah, bless your heart, I love you.
And all this coming towards Craig, dear Disco Craig, who couldn't even perform a proper pirouette on the dance stage.
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Oakspear
Right on waysider...I agree.
I think that Wierwille only pushed those he knew that he had a hold on, like the time he told an entire Way Corps group that they were thrown out, but later relented if they would...I forget what they had to do, but they all came back. Could he have done that with "the ministry" at large? No way!
You wanted to put up a Christmas tree? Skip the Rock of Ages? Play banjoes during twig? No problem, just keep the money coming!
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GrouchoMarxJr
As it turns out, Martindale was a blithering idiot. He dismantled the 3 biggest money makers that twi had...the pfal class, the wow program and the roa!...unbelievable!
...and then he goes into a homophobic rage and becomes hysterical...what?...he finally found out his wife was gay?...Is that why Eve became a lesbian? Good grief, he was accusing people of being gay that weren't gay!..."spiritual suspicion"?...what the f **k is that? Did he just make it up as he went along?
...and why did Vic choose this moron?...My guess is that Vic knew he was running a cult based on his own charismatic personality and he therefore, picked someone that was dynamic and charismatic. Had he selected Walter Cummins, over half the people posting here would still be going to twig.
Vic knew it had no real substance...he was a con man. He tried to let the Okie in on the secret when he told him to "loosen up" in his sex life... but the Okie was too dumb to figure it out...he really thought he was Joshua!...when in fact he was the dancing Okie...Aquaman!
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shazdancer
Wierwille was already becoming marginalized by 1980. Here's the background.
That was the summer that my first husband and I had been given jobs on staff at Rome City. But when my husband decided to get drunk at the ROA, he went to Wierwille for guidance, then came home to announce that we were being transferred to Phoenix. I was livid, and I tried the next day to see Wierwille. I was not allowed to speak to him, but got as far as Don and JAL.
JAL said something that resonated with me. He told me that since my husband had gone to Wierwille, there was nothing he could do, but that "it didn't have to be done that way." I took it to mean that it all could have been kept from him, and the outcome would have been different.
I think Wierwille chose LCM because he wanted a perfect disciple, the perfect narcissist's foil. He had it in Howard, until Howard betrayed him. Others worked around him, and he knew it. I watched Wierwille trying to groom LCM in 1979 while we were in the Corps. I doubt Wierwille cared much what happened to the ministry beyond his death. He just wanted to die on a pedestal.
I think LCM knew he was in line for the presidency, so he knew enough to play along. Heck, maybe he really thought that transferring the mantle to him meant he now spoke for God.
-- Shaz
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Jim
Definitely.
Even though I was no more than a non-corps staffer, it was clear that VPW's presence at HQ was considered something of an annoyance by the cabinet. They had their agenda and goals and didn't particularly like their peaceful and orderly routine disrupted by VP's edicts.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Seems likely. I just can't see Walter going off on random tirades and driving people off. On the other hand, he might have been easier to remove by the more ambitious leaders than Craig would have been.
George
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Groucho, you are right. Had Walter, John S., and Gary Curtis been VP's seceesors, I still would be in TWI today(includes Ralph D.) and if ROA were still going on today, yep spend money like crazy.
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TheHighWay
Hmm... interesting. So, VP sees he's losing power BEFORE he steps down. He wants to go out on top, no matter what the long-term consequences so he installs Craig as his successor thinking he can control such a sicophantic idiot from the sidelines. But once Craig is made king, he and the rest of the BOT pretty much ignore Vic completely because the BOT have now got little Craig's full attention. Nice. I think this is the first time it all fits for me... I knew doc Vic was feeling left out once Craig was in charge but I hadn't realized how early on it had started. Very interesting.
The rest I had pretty much pieced together:
A petulant Vic throws a few pity-parties for himself (some teaching tapes I remember hearing) but none of the leadership respond. He then travels to Scotland to throw himself a BIG pity party with someone he thinks will back him up. But the joke is on him because the travel wears him out and he comes home on his deathbed. His actions, however, leave the door wide open for Geer to swoop in and claim his true VP loyalty in the face of the obvious disregard the BOD had been showing old Vic. Sweet.
Once the first strike was made, the same leadership that had grown to disregard VP now show their utter contempt for Craig and start carving out their own little fiefdoms from twi's turf. Poor Craig (who I think actually believed his own press) struggles to regain control until he finally realizes he needs to cut his losses, shore up what is left, and go from there. He sends out his loyalty letter.
And from that point on his entire focus is on revenge toward those who wronged him, and purging out potential traitors before they have the chance to do it to him again.
Amazing how little of this I realized at the time... ((sigh)).
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My3Cents
Keep in mind that vpw was an alcoholic, albeit a reasonably functional one. People with that condition have a couple of traits in common. They are very good at hiding what's really going on and presenting a good front to the public. This is easier if they are in charge (of a family, a business, a cult) and harder if they are, say an employee.
Secondly alcoholics usually are impulsive and emotional - their decision are based on this not always logic. Looking back you can see patters, but that doesn't mean they did what they did because they thought it through.
He probably believed his own bull stuff Most meglomaniacs do. So I wouldn't read too much logic into the history of things.
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