I find this all very interesting. I'm too new here to fully understand all of what is being said about past edits, deletions, etc. Rules are rules, we choose to follow or not to follow them. This is just an Internet forum after all, not holy writ.
What strikes me most from my few months of reading and posting here is the inescapable fact that twi must absolutely hate Grease Spot Cafe. I mean, they must just HATE it. Would it be beneath current twi leadership to plant subterfuges in here? Posters whose purpose is to attempt to make GSC a nugatory forum from which to challenge twi? Would twi stoop so low? Are they that afraid of the information available on this site?
P.S. See, Satori, I am fully persuaded we can have a respectful, spirited, and enjoyable debate on this topic without stooping to personal attacks or violating rules. We can do that (or at least I happen to believe we can) because I also believe you and I respect each other.
I have learned (thanks to my experience here at the cafe) that debating with someone who I do not respect and/or who does not respect me is ultimately a waste of my time. Not saying I don't still do it on occassion for various reasons, but I sure don't do it very often anymore, and for exactly those reasons (among others).
Life is too short to waste it arguing with people I don't even like. Once those minutes are gone they cannot be regained. I'd rather spend them with friends and family.
You're on the money, Abbie, on all points above. And I rarely even read the threads any more, much less post, for the reasons you've given.
I made this thread an exception because it seemed like the first open to discussing issues years in the making. I know others have attempted it, but the invitation really must have come from Pawtucket. And so it has, after lo these many seasons.
By the way, Abigail. If someone had saved your My Story posts, and if he were to put them back up on Greasespot, how would you feel, now that you have your new perspective? Would that be alright with you, or not? Do you still feel some justifiable relief that you got while the getting was good? Did those early choices here reflect your vulnerability to The Way, and would effectively rubbing your face in a mistake have helped you find your better, wiser self?
Or would you have just left?
--
Whoever said I felt GS has outlived its usefulness only because of the edit thing has misunderstood my meaning.
It exemplifies the attitude underlying that specific decision, and random but consistent day to day decisions, including the attitude and behavior of certain moderators in certain situations (some of whom may be friends, but who knows?), and the general permissiveness toward posts like Garth's taunt-filled garbage while forbidding the well-deserved, satisfaction of a slap-down he so richly and often deserves... and so on.
I, for one, haven't been able to visit here nearly as often as I used to. I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, I totally understand where Paw is coming from. On the other hand, I don't want to let go. This is a huge community, a huge family in a lot of ways, with a common experience at its core but widely varying experiences preceding and following it.
We all have our "before I took PFAL" testimonies, our "when I took PFAL" stories. Most of us have our "I realized things were going wrong when" stories, followed by either "I decided to leave when" or "I got thrown out when" stories...
And we survived. And often thrived.
The Way International is a joke, a third rate wannabe cult that never gained a fame commensurate with its arrogance. Its founder bragged that he'd forgotten more about the Bible than some people ever knew, and then he set about proving just how much he'd forgotten.
For a time, we who found our way out of the Way wandered, never quite certain about how to process this experience because, frankly, very few others could relate to it.
And then this Internet popped up, and slowly but surely, we all began finding each other, first with e-mail lists, then off-shoot web pages, and finally the CES and Waydale forums.
We were home again, only home was a very different place than an Ohio cornfield. We were free to disagree, and disagree we did!
Greasespot carried that tradition on for 10 years (shudder, folks, it's been that long).
And now we can and should ask ourselves some questions:
1. What purpose has it served?
2. What purpose does it serve?
3. At what cost?
4. And who is paying that price?
Up until now, the answer to numbers 3 and 4 has been Pawtucket (and I know I am not alone in saying that I never quite thanked him enough).
If the Greasespot Cafe is a hangout, then it is not worth the cost.
If it's a security blanket, it is not worth the cost.
If, however, it is a resource, then maybe it is worth the cost, but it may be too much to ask one person to continue to pay it.
I'm just thinking out loud, so to speak.
This place can only last but so long the way it has been operating. As it stands, the enormous good will of one man has carried us quite a distance.
I would love to see Greasespot continue as it has been; as long as there is a TWI, there should be a gathering of people willing to stand up to their lies, distortions and burials of the abuses of the past.
But at what cost? Certainly not one I would wish on Paw.
I don't know if there's a solution, but I suspect it does not lie in the way things have been.
You're on the money, Abbie, on all points above. And I rarely even read the threads any more, much less post, for the reasons you've given.
And I as well. Generally when I do post, it is in the 'tacks forum or the doctrinal forum. I have little interested in the About the Way forums anymore, unless I think I can offer some personal experience or perspective that may benefit another. I am by and large done with and over TWI. However, there are still many people who are not.
By the way, Abigail. If someone had saved your My Story posts, and if he were to put them back up on Greasespot, how would you feel, now that you have your new perspective? Would that be alright with you, or not? Do you still feel some justifiable relief that you got while the getting was good? Did those early choices here reflect your vulnerability to The Way, and would effectively rubbing your face in a mistake have helped you find your better, wiser self?
Or would you have just left?
I didn't delete the My Story posts because of TWI. I will PM with my reason for doing it, as I don't wish to open that can of worms publicly. That being said, I suspect if I had asked and explained my reasons, the moderators would have deleted it for me. I don't generally delete what I have written, this was a rare exception. I think Paw and the Moderators are willing to make exceptions, they simply don't want the exceptions to become the rule. At least, I hope that to be the case.
If someone put them back up now, I may be angered by it (afterall, I did delete them fair and square in the days when it was allowed ), but again, I would carry on. In fact, at this point I suspect it really wouldn't impact my life one way or another. I do realize, however, that may not be the case in someone else's situation.
If the posts had remained, it may have helped me become wiser regarding the internet more quickly than I did. And yes, I was newer then and more vulnerable. (In fact it can be interesting to go back and look at those early posts and realize just how far I have come.)
But again, as I have already said, I do believe leeway needs to be given to those who are new, to those who may not fully understand what can happen when you reveal personal information on the world wide web. But a decent number of us have been here long enough that at the very least, we ought to know what the consequences of such actions can be.
It exemplifies the attitude underlying that specific decision, and random but consistent day to day decisions, including the attitude and behavior of certain moderators in certain situations (some of whom may be friends, but who knows?), and the general permissiveness toward posts like Garth's taunt-filled garbage while forbidding the well-deserved, satisfaction of a slap-down he so richly and often deserves... and so on.
I dunno, Satori. I too have had posts moderated, deleted, even moved to the soap forum. I can't say I was very happy about it when it occured. But, given some time and perspective I do think the moderators were doing their best to make the best decision for this place. They are human, they make mistakes too. I don't always agree with them, but I imagine they have a difficult job.
And, regarding Garth's post, it appears to me you were able to give it back pretty good and your post still stands as well. So, I am not sure anyone was denied an opportunity at a "slap-down."
I mentioned earlier that the hypothetical poster might over-estimate the intelligence and sensitivity of respondents here. Garth's lack of concern or comprehension is an excellent case in point. ... and so forth and so on
... and you just go on and totally miss my point/misrepresent what I said. The _only_ thing that I am showing a 'lack of concern' for is your oversensitivity for having a time cap put on your ability to 'have editorial control' (ie., delete/reedit later at your convenience) over what you post. That is all that I 'crapped' on.
And frankly, it was you who came along and started this derail away from whether or not GS has jumped the shark with said quite wordy and self-serving complaint.
And speaking of the ability to tune a certain poster out (tunes out Satori)
Frankly Abigail, there are people whom you could disagree with in a totally respectful and diplomatic manner like you have here, and they would turn on you just as viciously. It's simply because their views are being challenged that they take offense, and treat the challenger with derision.
For those who are curious what is being posted on the *Anti GSC* site, Here is my latest post in response to Abi.
Or maybe, just maybe Paw really believes in the mission of Greasespot (telling the other sides of the story of TWI). Perhaps he truly desires to help people, but is also feeling burned out by the amount of time it takes to run the place they way he wnats it to be run.
Perhaps he has other motives altogether. Only he would really know, all we can do is speculate.
Abi --- hey there. David here. FWIW -- I think Paw is a real Champ. A real Hero to those who had no idea of what was REALLY going on in the inside walls of twi. Once Waydale was shutting down, he took up the banner/ standard, and took it from there moving it forward instead of letting it stagnate, as it very well could have. Perhaps it was easier to run the site back then (perhaps not), because there was still a LOT of confusion about what actually did go on behind the the scenes. Folks wanted to know stuff, that hadn't been previously made *available*.
Here's a good *for instance*. Remember The LEAD Accident?? Told by HCW?
Damn near everyone on the board knew about that that accident, but it was so shrouded in secrecy, that speculation about the entire thing was the only option until HCW came forth and told the story in it's entirety.
Grease Spot used to offer things like that, but not anymore.
Anymore it's a social site dealing with discussing *layers of onions*,
versus the serious sh!! that happened in the past.
GSC has changed big time, over these past 5 years. Back then, actual info was offered. These days it seems there are reports of *Black Helicopters* every way you you turn. Everyone is accusing everyone else of not following the rules, being a dick, etc.
If Paw wants to to shut it down -- Have at it, and do so quickly.
He did what he could, and was p!ssed on as a result.
It strikes me that the best parts of GSC can thrive if a few people were willing to gather a handful of resources and actually form a bonafide non-profit.
When Waydale shut down, Pawtucket stepped to the plate and started GreaseSpot...
What has been the result?...Between Waydale and GreaseSpot, Twi has been hit HARD...LCM left in disgrace, thousands of people have come to an understanding of what REALLY happened with this cult. Twi has been reduced to a small group that has circled the wagons in hopes of surviving...we have accomplished much good I think.
...and yes, this place has evolved into a social gathering place that offers many things other than cult discussions...I think it's viable and worth continuing.
It strikes me that the best parts of GSC can thrive if a few people were willing to gather a handful of resources and actually form a bonafide non-profit.
Just a thought.
Brilliant idea!!!
In fact, as a tax deductible organization, there might be support from some who don't even post here but who are intereated in cult recovery and information.
Anymore it's a social site dealing with discussing *layers of onions*,
versus the serious sh!! that happened in the past.
GSC has changed big time, over these past 5 years. Back then, actual info was offered.
I am relatively new here, so I have no real experience with seeing this actual info offered that dmiller speaks of, the only thing I can liken it to was DWH's podcast and his other posts, other than that, I've read archival information, and gleaned information from a variety of different posters here.
I think part of the problem is that some of the "oldsters" who've been here for years, even as far back as Waydale days, haven't continued to post their experiences in the current forums, they've already posted it, it's old news to them.
Unfortunately for us newsters, some of that information is locked away on Waydale, or is rather hard to find here in the archives. I think this is part of the problem.
Raf, your thoughts regarding requiring more than your login is something other web boards use to discourage trolls and nuisance posters. Sometimes a registration fee is required by credit card which requires some personal information disclosure to further discourage trolls. Some sites require this for just posting, some require it for reading and thread view access. I think reading privileges are good to keep open and would be better to encourage anonymity amongst defectors.
I'm glad you put that here, dmiller. I didn't know (altho ya gotta figure) there were "anti-gsc sites or site where people post things they don't, won't or don't waht to post here. That's all getting a little too deep for me. Maybe it's not a big deal. To me it would be kinda kandyass to post something somewhere else and not here. So I'm glad you did.
The whole business about information is a really interesting point in the GS dynamic - that makes sense but those who have questions or hot topics that they feel should be explored need to come forth, Lazarus. If they're not, what's that tell you? Frankly I think some of the stuff that's delved into in detail is trite and triivial. But it's important to those who bring it up and discuss it. So, everyone has to carry their own water here or at least ask for it, if there's going to be anything like you describe, which does seem to happen on it's own.
Just to be clear, The main site will NOT close. The maintenance on that is fairly simple.
The forums will be available in one form or another indefinitely. I've gotten a lot of ideas. The worst case scenario is that I make the forums read only.
This is good the main site will not close.
Maybe you need a holiday from all of this for a short time? Have the forums read only for a week , three weeks , six weeks or whatever is best for you. Have a date posted when the forums will be open to post in again. A short break might actually be good for everyone? Maybe you can make a final decision what is to be done after the short break? No matter what pawtucket do what is best for you.
I haven't read every post on this thread. I just want to thank Pawtucket for taking on the reigns once Waydale was finished. I don't think I would have been able to get to the point of leaving TWI or getting through it without Greasespotcafe.com. It has been 6 years since I left TWI, and the reading here has been invaluable to me and my sanity as I got over all of the waybrain during the 20 years I was in TWI.
I think making the forums readable only is a great idea. I think there is enough information in the forums to help people. I particularly think "About The Way" from 2000 to 2003 or 2004 probably has some of the best conversations for those leaving TWI.
I would like to extend my extreme thanks to Pawtucket and every Greasespot moderator who put in their time to make sure everything was kept in check here.
This is a complicated place. I had no idea the sacrifices Paw has made. I honestly don't know what it takes to run a forum, but the complaints and responses here all sound familiar.
I think I learned the grew the most here back in the days of arguing with Zixar and occasionally Satori and others. Most of those times have been in the doctrinal basement and the newer bottom dweller- Ticks and Tacks or in About the Way. I don't spend that much time here anymore in spite of the fact that you'll usually see my handle at the bottom as "logged on".
I do miss those times a bit. I miss the arguments, but I don't think the moderation or anything else is the problem. I think there really is only so much to discuss. Sure there's the details but even when I started asking questions here years ago, it was many times met with "we've already discussed that. do a search," as if that is an easy task (as Mark O pointed out). I was glad to see some people started bringing threads to the top for newbies. But, there are only so many times one can or should rehash the same ol' stuff.
The other thing is that, yes there are plenty of new people joining but not nearly enough participating to make the conversations very fresh tasting. They are usually discovering things that the majority of posters here realized years ago. When those issues do get rehashed and hashed and ashed I think perhaps it does look more like bitterness even when it isn't. Moving on is a good thing, especially when you have done it on your own time, at the right time, and no sooner or later than that.
For me I don't know that there is much more about TWI I need to learn about. I know there are still people that need a place like GSC. I am related to some of them. I know that it has helped some of them to some degree recently. I think the place is still relevant.
FWIW, I think people like Satori and Zixar and others are sorely missed. I don't know how I would have filled the void in my life if I had not read "moonwalking the mahi mahi" today. Seriously. Other than my kids doing and saying the cutest most amazing things in the world and the company of my wife, that made my day. I actually agree with a lot of what you said, Satori. I hate moderating silliness too, and I appreciate your talent and the importance that you put on your own words. I understand that. Perhaps moderating has gotten a little out of control or too in control. I don't know. I don't say some of the crazy $ h!t you say. Viva la loco.
I salute the ministry of Al Gore for helping start the internets.
PAW- seriously, thank you for what you have done here. Regardless of what happens, I hope you take the time you need to enjoy the rest of your life with someone special. You have done a great thing here. I'm sure someone will pick up where you have left off. Cheers.
Last thought I've had rolling around, but haven't been sure how to pose it, or if it's worthwhile or timely. (Man this is long - snooze alert! Get the drool cups)
The relevance of GS as a current source of information about The Way Nash....The Way has by all reports of those close enough to know, changed somewhat - by necessity, choice or both. But the Way of today is hardly the Way of the 90's, 80's, 70's, 60's, etc. Some of the old guard are still there, at the helm, but that will change within the next few years as aging continues. More new blood will take over, time will roll on.
Many of the topics that are dealt with here I would think aren't viewed in the same context by Wayfers, at all, anymore. PFAL for instance. They have a new class, and while PFAL is still the foundation for what they teach I would suspect that it's probably starting to be an anachronism there as much as anything.
Today, it may be more of a quaint early representation of what they're pumping. They're stuck with what they've got, Martindale's class which is hardly a sterling example of anything but it's what they've got. So they've dumbed down the entire effort into some quasi-religious meld of old and kind-of-old, and are keeping the grass mowed and doing maintenance. And whatever else they're doing which hardly makes much of a blip on anybody's radar unless it bobs to the surface like that "dance" video from their SNS which was only of interest because it was so horridly ridculous and once "outsiders" got a whiff of it, it made good internet comedy. For awhile.
Plus, they've chosen to burn out any of the "old wineskin" people and stuff, so the past to the current membership is a piece-meal collection of what's left. They can't really be sure of who they are because they've cut and pasted who they were into an image they've chosen. Reality is a b-tch, if you're in the Way because it ain't real, it's someone's intepretation of it.
In fact, they've had so many upheavals and shifts in leadership in the last 20 years or so it would stand to reason if their teaching axis has shifted irrevocably from any semblance of any of the ground originally plowed. They probably don't see it that way, but looking at their website, they've reinvented themselves back into the future, as the quiet, quaint li'l biblical research ministry with nothing wrong, that wants to see the Word go over the World and has survived intact, better than ever.
Which isn't entirely true, there's a few storeez left untold and unattended, we know. Some people there who have waited it out silently and continue to do so. But in a very real way, they've been left toothless and tied, unable to move openly for fear of stirring up old business. So they keep quiet and don't make a fuss. So it goes...
Which in a very roundabout way brings me to why GS may not seem to have that "zing" that it did 10 (yikes!) years ago. Because as Lindyhopper stated, the events of the past have been stated, restated, discussed and debated by those here and on Waydale who particpated and contributed - mamy times, many ways.
Some of those things are, in fact, very old now. They may not be completely resolved for some people but they're far enough in the past that they would only be relevant - directly - to those who were involved. Discussing them at length could have value to someone and could offer some enlightenment to current affairs, yes. There are going to be people who will come along all these years later and find value in the information, sure.
But "that Way" of Ohio no longer exists. It's gone, over, and probably isn't even recognizable to the people that are still there except as a dim memory. If there was anything good - and I think there was - the best place to be living it is "out here", because if you're "in there" you're livin' in a dream.
For those who have been on GS and Waydale before it, it stands to reason that the social aspect of GS would develop into importance then, IMO. Because life goes on. If we're still breathing, it's gone on and everyone has some kind of life they live today that isn't in the BRC, or Emporia, or Indiana or wherever we were 20-30 years ago. We're not those people anymore and hopefully we have learned, grown, changed. Everyone's definitely older. :) That's a good thing.
Just some thoughts....
To add (thank God for the Edit Feature!!! ) ... this isn't a "get over it" riff. Rather it's a reality riff. What's happening, happened here represents something - it may not be the result of moderation, argument, opinion, management, etc. etc. and may be nothing more or less than the inevitable change that comes with time. Each individual knows for themselves what's working and what isn't. Correctly interpreting and understanding the events and times of our lives is like gold. This could be a good time to bank some. :)
As some of you go sniping about the editing issue, something that's been a thorn in my side too, may I remind you of a poster we had here once who decided to delete every single stinkin' post she had made over a year or so?
It made for some half-baked threads because suddenly there were several blank posts from her and many conversations was unraveled. As we say in Maine, it was a "real pis- sah!"
Yeah, I get it that you want to tweak what you wrote. I feel your pain.
What about the greater good?
I don't like it - but I "get it".
And you know what? I've asked the mods to help me edit something and they've been dang helpful. If it's bad enough, just ask... no worries.
So about this poll...
Shut 'er down and ride off into the sunset with your lady, Paw....
Perhaps some divorced orphan will start a "social" x-twi site but you got better things to do....
I don't spend as much time here as i once did because my life has changed in the past few years. I've thought alot and processed alot from my TWI years by being here and it helped me so much.
Pawtucket, thanks for GSC. I think that an Ex TWi forum will continue somewhere somehow if it is a need, but I don't think your life and time has to be the price for such a forum. Go live the life you want!
It made for some half-baked threads because suddenly there were several blank posts from her and many conversations was unraveled. As we say in Maine, it was a "real pis- sah!"
Yeah, I get it that you want to tweak what you wrote. I feel your pain. What about the greater good?
I think the "greater good" is far better served by maximum individual autonomy over his or her written "content." It's hard to imagine how the unraveling of a thread, as you describe it, is more important than that.
How often would such a thing as blanket deletions happen? Count the times it happened at Greasespot. Did Greasespot somehow go on?
A community can self-police, and the best of them do. The individual who abuses the feature would soon be dismissed from the dialogue.
just wonder.. maybe just a small point, but if GS shuts down, doesn't that make any arguments over the editorial process as some would say, a moot point?
Shut 'er down and ride off into the sunset with your lady, Paw....
I agree. twi is basically decimated, with little hope of recovery. Paw, if there comes a time again that there is a real, genuine, substantial NEED for a site like this to expose the evils of der vey, I'm sure somebody will step up to the plate..
probably in ten or fifteen years or more, after the sowers have gone through a few "disgruntled" "followers"..
just wonder.. maybe just a small point, but if GS shuts down, doesn't that make any arguments over the editorial process as some would say, a moot point?
:)
It would be moot.
If someone were to ask if GS had outlived its usefulness, should a "yes" or "no" be sufficient, or would you think some qualifying argument was in order?
And, once again, the edit thing is about the autonomy of the participants. It's a little more than being able to correct your spelling. Can't stress that enough, apparently.
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I find this all very interesting. I'm too new here to fully understand all of what is being said about past edits, deletions, etc. Rules are rules, we choose to follow or not to follow them. This is just an Internet forum after all, not holy writ.
What strikes me most from my few months of reading and posting here is the inescapable fact that twi must absolutely hate Grease Spot Cafe. I mean, they must just HATE it. Would it be beneath current twi leadership to plant subterfuges in here? Posters whose purpose is to attempt to make GSC a nugatory forum from which to challenge twi? Would twi stoop so low? Are they that afraid of the information available on this site?
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satori001
You're on the money, Abbie, on all points above. And I rarely even read the threads any more, much less post, for the reasons you've given.
I made this thread an exception because it seemed like the first open to discussing issues years in the making. I know others have attempted it, but the invitation really must have come from Pawtucket. And so it has, after lo these many seasons.
By the way, Abigail. If someone had saved your My Story posts, and if he were to put them back up on Greasespot, how would you feel, now that you have your new perspective? Would that be alright with you, or not? Do you still feel some justifiable relief that you got while the getting was good? Did those early choices here reflect your vulnerability to The Way, and would effectively rubbing your face in a mistake have helped you find your better, wiser self?
Or would you have just left?
--
Whoever said I felt GS has outlived its usefulness only because of the edit thing has misunderstood my meaning.
It exemplifies the attitude underlying that specific decision, and random but consistent day to day decisions, including the attitude and behavior of certain moderators in certain situations (some of whom may be friends, but who knows?), and the general permissiveness toward posts like Garth's taunt-filled garbage while forbidding the well-deserved, satisfaction of a slap-down he so richly and often deserves... and so on.
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Raf
I, for one, haven't been able to visit here nearly as often as I used to. I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, I totally understand where Paw is coming from. On the other hand, I don't want to let go. This is a huge community, a huge family in a lot of ways, with a common experience at its core but widely varying experiences preceding and following it.
We all have our "before I took PFAL" testimonies, our "when I took PFAL" stories. Most of us have our "I realized things were going wrong when" stories, followed by either "I decided to leave when" or "I got thrown out when" stories...
And we survived. And often thrived.
The Way International is a joke, a third rate wannabe cult that never gained a fame commensurate with its arrogance. Its founder bragged that he'd forgotten more about the Bible than some people ever knew, and then he set about proving just how much he'd forgotten.
For a time, we who found our way out of the Way wandered, never quite certain about how to process this experience because, frankly, very few others could relate to it.
And then this Internet popped up, and slowly but surely, we all began finding each other, first with e-mail lists, then off-shoot web pages, and finally the CES and Waydale forums.
We were home again, only home was a very different place than an Ohio cornfield. We were free to disagree, and disagree we did!
Greasespot carried that tradition on for 10 years (shudder, folks, it's been that long).
And now we can and should ask ourselves some questions:
1. What purpose has it served?
2. What purpose does it serve?
3. At what cost?
4. And who is paying that price?
Up until now, the answer to numbers 3 and 4 has been Pawtucket (and I know I am not alone in saying that I never quite thanked him enough).
If the Greasespot Cafe is a hangout, then it is not worth the cost.
If it's a security blanket, it is not worth the cost.
If, however, it is a resource, then maybe it is worth the cost, but it may be too much to ask one person to continue to pay it.
I'm just thinking out loud, so to speak.
This place can only last but so long the way it has been operating. As it stands, the enormous good will of one man has carried us quite a distance.
I would love to see Greasespot continue as it has been; as long as there is a TWI, there should be a gathering of people willing to stand up to their lies, distortions and burials of the abuses of the past.
But at what cost? Certainly not one I would wish on Paw.
I don't know if there's a solution, but I suspect it does not lie in the way things have been.
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Abigail
And I as well. Generally when I do post, it is in the 'tacks forum or the doctrinal forum. I have little interested in the About the Way forums anymore, unless I think I can offer some personal experience or perspective that may benefit another. I am by and large done with and over TWI. However, there are still many people who are not.
I didn't delete the My Story posts because of TWI. I will PM with my reason for doing it, as I don't wish to open that can of worms publicly. That being said, I suspect if I had asked and explained my reasons, the moderators would have deleted it for me. I don't generally delete what I have written, this was a rare exception. I think Paw and the Moderators are willing to make exceptions, they simply don't want the exceptions to become the rule. At least, I hope that to be the case.
If someone put them back up now, I may be angered by it (afterall, I did delete them fair and square in the days when it was allowed
), but again, I would carry on. In fact, at this point I suspect it really wouldn't impact my life one way or another. I do realize, however, that may not be the case in someone else's situation.
If the posts had remained, it may have helped me become wiser regarding the internet more quickly than I did. And yes, I was newer then and more vulnerable. (In fact it can be interesting to go back and look at those early posts and realize just how far I have come.)
But again, as I have already said, I do believe leeway needs to be given to those who are new, to those who may not fully understand what can happen when you reveal personal information on the world wide web. But a decent number of us have been here long enough that at the very least, we ought to know what the consequences of such actions can be.
I dunno, Satori. I too have had posts moderated, deleted, even moved to the soap forum. I can't say I was very happy about it when it occured. But, given some time and perspective I do think the moderators were doing their best to make the best decision for this place. They are human, they make mistakes too. I don't always agree with them, but I imagine they have a difficult job.
And, regarding Garth's post, it appears to me you were able to give it back pretty good and your post still stands as well. So, I am not sure anyone was denied an opportunity at a "slap-down."
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GarthP2000
... and you just go on and totally miss my point/misrepresent what I said. The _only_ thing that I am showing a 'lack of concern' for is your oversensitivity for having a time cap put on your ability to 'have editorial control' (ie., delete/reedit later at your convenience) over what you post. That is all that I 'crapped' on.
And frankly, it was you who came along and started this derail away from whether or not GS has jumped the shark with said quite wordy and self-serving complaint.
And speaking of the ability to tune a certain poster out (tunes out Satori)
Frankly Abigail, there are people whom you could disagree with in a totally respectful and diplomatic manner like you have here, and they would turn on you just as viciously. It's simply because their views are being challenged that they take offense, and treat the challenger with derision.
Much like it was in TWI.
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dmiller
For those who are curious what is being posted on the *Anti GSC* site, Here is my latest post in response to Abi.
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Raf
What if Greasespot required more than your login?
It strikes me that the best parts of GSC can thrive if a few people were willing to gather a handful of resources and actually form a bonafide non-profit.
Just a thought.
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GrouchoMarxJr
When Waydale shut down, Pawtucket stepped to the plate and started GreaseSpot...
What has been the result?...Between Waydale and GreaseSpot, Twi has been hit HARD...LCM left in disgrace, thousands of people have come to an understanding of what REALLY happened with this cult. Twi has been reduced to a small group that has circled the wagons in hopes of surviving...we have accomplished much good I think.
...and yes, this place has evolved into a social gathering place that offers many things other than cult discussions...I think it's viable and worth continuing.
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now I see
Hahahahaha! Good statement!
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markomalley
Brilliant idea!!!
In fact, as a tax deductible organization, there might be support from some who don't even post here but who are intereated in cult recovery and information.
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now I see
I am relatively new here, so I have no real experience with seeing this actual info offered that dmiller speaks of, the only thing I can liken it to was DWH's podcast and his other posts, other than that, I've read archival information, and gleaned information from a variety of different posters here.
I think part of the problem is that some of the "oldsters" who've been here for years, even as far back as Waydale days, haven't continued to post their experiences in the current forums, they've already posted it, it's old news to them.
Unfortunately for us newsters, some of that information is locked away on Waydale, or is rather hard to find here in the archives. I think this is part of the problem.
Raf, your thoughts regarding requiring more than your login is something other web boards use to discourage trolls and nuisance posters. Sometimes a registration fee is required by credit card which requires some personal information disclosure to further discourage trolls. Some sites require this for just posting, some require it for reading and thread view access. I think reading privileges are good to keep open and would be better to encourage anonymity amongst defectors.
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socks
I'm glad you put that here, dmiller. I didn't know (altho ya gotta figure) there were "anti-gsc sites or site where people post things they don't, won't or don't waht to post here. That's all getting a little too deep for me. Maybe it's not a big deal. To me it would be kinda kandyass to post something somewhere else and not here. So I'm glad you did.
The whole business about information is a really interesting point in the GS dynamic - that makes sense but those who have questions or hot topics that they feel should be explored need to come forth, Lazarus. If they're not, what's that tell you? Frankly I think some of the stuff that's delved into in detail is trite and triivial. But it's important to those who bring it up and discuss it. So, everyone has to carry their own water here or at least ask for it, if there's going to be anything like you describe, which does seem to happen on it's own.
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Lizzy
This is good the main site will not close.
Maybe you need a holiday from all of this for a short time? Have the forums read only for a week , three weeks , six weeks or whatever is best for you. Have a date posted when the forums will be open to post in again. A short break might actually be good for everyone? Maybe you can make a final decision what is to be done after the short break? No matter what pawtucket do what is best for you.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Actually, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. Why else would you spend so much time in this particular thread belaboring the point?
George
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Nottawayfer
I haven't read every post on this thread. I just want to thank Pawtucket for taking on the reigns once Waydale was finished. I don't think I would have been able to get to the point of leaving TWI or getting through it without Greasespotcafe.com. It has been 6 years since I left TWI, and the reading here has been invaluable to me and my sanity as I got over all of the waybrain during the 20 years I was in TWI.
I think making the forums readable only is a great idea. I think there is enough information in the forums to help people. I particularly think "About The Way" from 2000 to 2003 or 2004 probably has some of the best conversations for those leaving TWI.
I would like to extend my extreme thanks to Pawtucket and every Greasespot moderator who put in their time to make sure everything was kept in check here.
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lindyhopper
This is a complicated place. I had no idea the sacrifices Paw has made. I honestly don't know what it takes to run a forum, but the complaints and responses here all sound familiar.
I think I learned the grew the most here back in the days of arguing with Zixar and occasionally Satori and others. Most of those times have been in the doctrinal basement and the newer bottom dweller- Ticks and Tacks or in About the Way. I don't spend that much time here anymore in spite of the fact that you'll usually see my handle at the bottom as "logged on".
I do miss those times a bit. I miss the arguments, but I don't think the moderation or anything else is the problem. I think there really is only so much to discuss. Sure there's the details but even when I started asking questions here years ago, it was many times met with "we've already discussed that. do a search," as if that is an easy task (as Mark O pointed out). I was glad to see some people started bringing threads to the top for newbies. But, there are only so many times one can or should rehash the same ol' stuff.
The other thing is that, yes there are plenty of new people joining but not nearly enough participating to make the conversations very fresh tasting. They are usually discovering things that the majority of posters here realized years ago. When those issues do get rehashed and hashed and ashed I think perhaps it does look more like bitterness even when it isn't. Moving on is a good thing, especially when you have done it on your own time, at the right time, and no sooner or later than that.
For me I don't know that there is much more about TWI I need to learn about. I know there are still people that need a place like GSC. I am related to some of them. I know that it has helped some of them to some degree recently. I think the place is still relevant.
FWIW, I think people like Satori and Zixar and others are sorely missed. I don't know how I would have filled the void in my life if I had not read "moonwalking the mahi mahi" today. Seriously. Other than my kids doing and saying the cutest most amazing things in the world and the company of my wife, that made my day.
I actually agree with a lot of what you said, Satori. I hate moderating silliness too, and I appreciate your talent and the importance that you put on your own words. I understand that. Perhaps moderating has gotten a little out of control or too in control. I don't know. I don't say some of the crazy $ h!t you say. Viva la loco.
I salute the ministry of Al Gore for helping start the internets.
PAW- seriously, thank you for what you have done here. Regardless of what happens, I hope you take the time you need to enjoy the rest of your life with someone special. You have done a great thing here. I'm sure someone will pick up where you have left off. Cheers.
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socks
Last thought I've had rolling around, but haven't been sure how to pose it, or if it's worthwhile or timely. (Man this is long - snooze alert! Get the drool cups)
The relevance of GS as a current source of information about The Way Nash....The Way has by all reports of those close enough to know, changed somewhat - by necessity, choice or both. But the Way of today is hardly the Way of the 90's, 80's, 70's, 60's, etc. Some of the old guard are still there, at the helm, but that will change within the next few years as aging continues. More new blood will take over, time will roll on.
Many of the topics that are dealt with here I would think aren't viewed in the same context by Wayfers, at all, anymore. PFAL for instance. They have a new class, and while PFAL is still the foundation for what they teach I would suspect that it's probably starting to be an anachronism there as much as anything.
Today, it may be more of a quaint early representation of what they're pumping. They're stuck with what they've got, Martindale's class which is hardly a sterling example of anything but it's what they've got. So they've dumbed down the entire effort into some quasi-religious meld of old and kind-of-old, and are keeping the grass mowed and doing maintenance. And whatever else they're doing which hardly makes much of a blip on anybody's radar unless it bobs to the surface like that "dance" video from their SNS which was only of interest because it was so horridly ridculous and once "outsiders" got a whiff of it, it made good internet comedy. For awhile.
Plus, they've chosen to burn out any of the "old wineskin" people and stuff, so the past to the current membership is a piece-meal collection of what's left. They can't really be sure of who they are because they've cut and pasted who they were into an image they've chosen. Reality is a b-tch, if you're in the Way because it ain't real, it's someone's intepretation of it.
In fact, they've had so many upheavals and shifts in leadership in the last 20 years or so it would stand to reason if their teaching axis has shifted irrevocably from any semblance of any of the ground originally plowed. They probably don't see it that way, but looking at their website, they've reinvented themselves back into the future, as the quiet, quaint li'l biblical research ministry with nothing wrong, that wants to see the Word go over the World and has survived intact, better than ever.
Which isn't entirely true, there's a few storeez left untold and unattended, we know. Some people there who have waited it out silently and continue to do so. But in a very real way, they've been left toothless and tied, unable to move openly for fear of stirring up old business. So they keep quiet and don't make a fuss. So it goes...
Which in a very roundabout way brings me to why GS may not seem to have that "zing" that it did 10 (yikes!) years ago. Because as Lindyhopper stated, the events of the past have been stated, restated, discussed and debated by those here and on Waydale who particpated and contributed - mamy times, many ways.
Some of those things are, in fact, very old now. They may not be completely resolved for some people but they're far enough in the past that they would only be relevant - directly - to those who were involved. Discussing them at length could have value to someone and could offer some enlightenment to current affairs, yes. There are going to be people who will come along all these years later and find value in the information, sure.
But "that Way" of Ohio no longer exists. It's gone, over, and probably isn't even recognizable to the people that are still there except as a dim memory. If there was anything good - and I think there was - the best place to be living it is "out here", because if you're "in there" you're livin' in a dream.
For those who have been on GS and Waydale before it, it stands to reason that the social aspect of GS would develop into importance then, IMO. Because life goes on. If we're still breathing, it's gone on and everyone has some kind of life they live today that isn't in the BRC, or Emporia, or Indiana or wherever we were 20-30 years ago. We're not those people anymore and hopefully we have learned, grown, changed. Everyone's definitely older. :) That's a good thing.
Just some thoughts....
To add (thank God for the Edit Feature!!!
) ... this isn't a "get over it" riff. Rather it's a reality riff. What's happening, happened here represents something - it may not be the result of moderation, argument, opinion, management, etc. etc. and may be nothing more or less than the inevitable change that comes with time. Each individual knows for themselves what's working and what isn't. Correctly interpreting and understanding the events and times of our lives is like gold. This could be a good time to bank some. :)
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ChasUFarley
As some of you go sniping about the editing issue, something that's been a thorn in my side too, may I remind you of a poster we had here once who decided to delete every single stinkin' post she had made over a year or so?
It made for some half-baked threads because suddenly there were several blank posts from her and many conversations was unraveled. As we say in Maine, it was a "real pis- sah!"
Yeah, I get it that you want to tweak what you wrote. I feel your pain.
What about the greater good?
I don't like it - but I "get it".
And you know what? I've asked the mods to help me edit something and they've been dang helpful. If it's bad enough, just ask... no worries.
So about this poll...
Shut 'er down and ride off into the sunset with your lady, Paw....
Perhaps some divorced orphan will start a "social" x-twi site but you got better things to do....
Just promise me you'll keep in touch!
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Bramble
I don't spend as much time here as i once did because my life has changed in the past few years. I've thought alot and processed alot from my TWI years by being here and it helped me so much.
Pawtucket, thanks for GSC. I think that an Ex TWi forum will continue somewhere somehow if it is a need, but I don't think your life and time has to be the price for such a forum. Go live the life you want!
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satori001
Thanks so much George. What a saint you are.
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satori001
I think the "greater good" is far better served by maximum individual autonomy over his or her written "content." It's hard to imagine how the unraveling of a thread, as you describe it, is more important than that.
How often would such a thing as blanket deletions happen? Count the times it happened at Greasespot. Did Greasespot somehow go on?
A community can self-police, and the best of them do. The individual who abuses the feature would soon be dismissed from the dialogue.
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Ham
just wonder.. maybe just a small point, but if GS shuts down, doesn't that make any arguments over the editorial process as some would say, a moot point?
:)
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Ham
I agree. twi is basically decimated, with little hope of recovery. Paw, if there comes a time again that there is a real, genuine, substantial NEED for a site like this to expose the evils of der vey, I'm sure somebody will step up to the plate..
probably in ten or fifteen years or more, after the sowers have gone through a few "disgruntled" "followers"..
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satori001
It would be moot.
If someone were to ask if GS had outlived its usefulness, should a "yes" or "no" be sufficient, or would you think some qualifying argument was in order?
And, once again, the edit thing is about the autonomy of the participants. It's a little more than being able to correct your spelling. Can't stress that enough, apparently.
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