...and also a great example of why many of us have been here for years. I'll be honest...I "got over it" a looooooooong time ago...but I continue to post because there are still a lot of folks out there who need to hear this stuff. It's something that I can do (a little caustic at times :) , but hey, every class needs it's clown...
...and there IS a steady stream of new people coming here almost daily...viable?...you bet.
Are new people at GSC people really in the dark? How much dirt do you need to know before the light bulb goes off? I talk to "old-timers" in person and they say they didn't have any idea that The Way is a cult. Then I remind them of things I heard when I wasn't old enough to go to school, and then they just sulk, or some people just get more religious. They're just on autopilot. Everyone in The Way knows they are in a cult. Everyone who left knows it was a mistake. Is nobody willing to admit it until they hear one of their peers say it first?
Don't those who "join" The Way usually have issues to start with? Aren't those the issues The Way preys upon? Aren't those the issues that need to be dealt with? Who really joined The Way for doctrinal reasons?
And, once "ex-wayfers" get together and discuss the "Whoa, what happened?" What next? Does anyone grab a sledge-hammer, walk to New Knoxville, and unleash another form of medicine on the "Victor Paul Wierwille Prevailing Word Auditorium," that building that was built with the money and labor of the "old-timers?"
I really don't think there are any "one size fits all" answers.
You may have a slightly different perspective on this because, being a wayfer kid, you didn't join The Way by choice. Part of what the current generation (not just wayfers) may have a hard time understanding is the social culture that existed in the 1960's. Many of us were driven by a desire to make the World a better place. Serving the organization (The Way) was viewed by some as a spiritual equivalent to joining The Peace Corps, a way to make a difference and please God simultaneously. Instead, we unwittingly became pawns in a second rate pyramid scheme.
Are new people at GSC people really in the dark? How much dirt do you need to know before the light bulb goes off? I talk to "old-timers" in person and they say they didn't have any idea that The Way is a cult. Then I remind them of things I heard when I wasn't old enough to go to school, and then they just sulk, or some people just get more religious. They're just on autopilot. Everyone in The Way knows they are in a cult. Everyone who left knows it was a mistake. Is nobody willing to admit it until they hear one of their peers say it first?
Don't those who "join" The Way usually have issues to start with? Aren't those the issues The Way preys upon? Aren't those the issues that need to be dealt with? Who really joined The Way for doctrinal reasons?
And, once "ex-wayfers" get together and discuss the "Whoa, what happened?" What next? Does anyone grab a sledge-hammer, walk to New Knoxville, and unleash another form of medicine on the "Victor Paul Wierwille Prevailing Word Auditorium," that building that was built with the money and labor of the "old-timers?"
Hey, Bolshevic. Thanks for your post. I appreciate your frankness. Views such as yours always makes me think, reevaluate.
You wrote, “Is nobody willing to admit it until they hear one of their peers say it first?”
It isn’t about my admitting I was in a cult. It is a matter of me being able accept what happened to me. It is about being able to talk it through with the only people I have ever found that understand. They understand because they were there. It is about validation of feelings and learning I am ok.
I left as Leafy and her husband did. I thought I had failed God. I didn’t leave because I thought I was in a Cult.
TWI taught us not to question. If something was wrong we were responsible because we weren’t mature enough, we didn’t believe enough, we didn't study enough, we gave our ABS to some one in need and not God's Ministry, we were thinking evil, we were out of fellowship, we were off the word, or any number of other BS things that were pounded into our heads. The sad part is, at the time it made sense and I believed it.
Remember?
“”””””If you can control your mind, you can control your entire life.””””””
Such BS.
GSC allowed me to question. I learned I wasn’t responsible for every “negative” in my life. It is ok to tell it like it is, even when others call it thinking evil. I learned .... happens and no amount of believing is going to change that. I learned so much, most after I started posting, exposing my shame and my guilt.
Anyway, thanks.
Life isn’t as cut and dry as TWI would have us believe.
I also think the way you left TWI also is significant in relation to the GS community and web board. Those who left on their own accord might not be as needy as those who were hurt by TWI before they departed. The residual and haunting feelings of guilt, of failure, betrayal, anger, and sorrow would be present if one was kicked out, M & A, or betrayed and abused by those in power. I literally felt as if my heart was torn out of me when I left, it felt like I was going through a divorce.
I was on the outside for 20 years, even in a splinter group for some of those years, before I stumbled across GS and found the missing pieces of the puzzle. That was only 2 years ago...Is the GS still a viable resource? It still is for me, I still experience healing here, even to this day, hurt turns to anger, anger turns to peace.
Those still in Wayland, are still regurgitating the rhetoric dogma their leaders are feeding them, they are in a place which is comfortable for them, and they are afraid of the devil who is in everything that isn't TWI. They may be a lost cause....Even so, we still hope that some will trickle out...I think that hope is what keeps GS here...More like a lighthouse sending it's beacon out to searching ships, and like a shepherd calling to it's lost sheep.
Maybe the overall story has been told. The Way International is a cult. SO. . .
What does that mean? I think it means that. . . .
Each of us have a story. A unique tale of our time in TWI. What happened to us as individuals . . . and that is what fills in the gaps. . . completes the story. . . that is what exposes the lies . . . the truth of us.
It is important because we are important. . . and what happened to us matters. We matter. All the hurt. . . the pain. . . the trauma. . . it is real. . . and I don't care if it happened twenty years ago or yesterday. . . it happened.
It did help to shape us, and YES. . of course. . . . it does not have to define us. . . Yet, who is really willing listen and understand. . . able to relate to the mixed cornucopia of emotions that come with having been in a cult? Our cult.
Those who have lived it. Those who know.
There are many of us extwiers. . . yet in the "real world" it seems very few. . . .
I am glad to have heard the stories and shared some of mine. . it really has helped me put my cult daze into a better perspective.
I don't share my cult experience with many. . . it seems too often to throw up an invisible wall. . . It is not everyday conversation either, and if someone has not experienced it. . . . they don't know.
People who find themselves in groups like TWI. . . are not all crazy or broken, many are educated, sensitive, caring, GOODhearted people.
We got caught up in something. . . we thought it was right. . . maybe it just wasn't that easy to see how it was changing or shaping us. Even now, maybe some don't.
But, what GSC has done is . . . it has helped me so much to see those things more clearly, because it is a shared experience and when I hear others. . it serves to clarify. It really does.
And for the record. . . I am of the opinion that ex-twiers are among the best and brightest.
So, as long as there are those who haved lived the "abundant life" Way Style. . . this place is viable.
I voted that it is still viable. I may have a small inkling of Paw's feelings when I think of the times I've been hot & heavy on Grease Spot. It does take time and energy to post, of course – but this place is so special to me - in that I tend to get so wrapped up in a line of thought, enjoy exploring all its aspects while getting to know some folks with a similar experience.
I do think Grease Spot has had a very positive impact on my life and has definitely affected the way I look at religion and belief systems. I hope Grease Spot NEVER goes away - and pray that things work out for its continuity.
I voted that it is still viable, but I can't even begin to imagine how the running of this place has impacted your life. Shoot, we have had to "put down the mouse and step away from the computer" because this place was getting to be an addiction for us...and we didn't even have the headaches of moderating, much less the nightmare of nasty emails and such. Good grief Paw, do what you need to do for yourself (and I am so happy that you and Shellon have made a "love connection).
By the way, we were both so happy to meet you and see you at the two bbq's...what a genuine pleasure to get to "hang" with you and DW and the gang. Our door is always open, so if you ever travel this way we'd love to have you visit us.
Big kisses and hugs to you, and I wish you peace and happiness.
Everyone in The Way knows they are in a cult. Everyone who left knows it was a mistake. Is nobody willing to admit it until they hear one of their peers say it first?
Who designated you a god, or a representative of everyone in The Way still? There are plenty of people that don't think it is a cult. Some people were kicked out, and may not yet realize it was a mistake (e.g. splinter groups), and not everyone knows what you know.
Don't those who "join" The Way usually have issues to start with? Aren't those the issues The Way preys upon? Aren't those the issues that need to be dealt with? Who really joined The Way for doctrinal reasons?
What about people who joined because a loved one joined? What about kids raised in that environment? There are people who joined for doctrinal reasons, because face it, VPW offered a new spin on Christianity, and the idea that you don't have to wear a suit every Sunday and sit in a gothic stadium is an interesting concept.
And, once "ex-wayfers" get together and discuss the "Whoa, what happened?" What next? Does anyone grab a sledge-hammer, walk to New Knoxville, and unleash another form of medicine on the "Victor Paul Wierwille Prevailing Word Auditorium," that building that was built with the money and labor of the "old-timers?"
It's not about destroying TWI, it's about healing yourself and removing TWI's tentacles from your life. In that process, many here make friends and reconnect with old friends, free from the boundaries imposed by The Way Corpse "leadership." While I agree with you that getting counseling can be important for many, there are things that only other ex-TWI people can understand. Think of this as like AlAnon or some other support group. While we aren't likely to relapse back to TWI, we have ways of thinking that would lead us down similar paths, and we all can use the support.
Throwing in the towel sounds too much like quitting to me. I can’t see Paw quitting at being who he is; which, in my opinion, is someone who cares deeply about bringing the evils of TWI to light and helping put the hearts of those broken back together. Even if GSC closed, that wouldn’t change.
I like the phrase passing the baton better.
Although, if this site closes with no baton passing, I can’t imagine another site not popping up to replace it, with a prominent link to the read only GSC, and really good instructions on how to search it :)
Shelly
Maybe *Passing the Mantle* might be more appropriate, eh??
Who designated you a god, or a representative of everyone in The Way still? There are plenty of people that don't think it is a cult. Some people were kicked out, and may not yet realize it was a mistake (e.g. splinter groups), and not everyone knows what you know.
What about people who joined because a loved one joined? What about kids raised in that environment? There are people who joined for doctrinal reasons, because face it, VPW offered a new spin on Christianity, and the idea that you don't have to wear a suit every Sunday and sit in a gothic stadium is an interesting concept.
It's not about destroying TWI, it's about healing yourself and removing TWI's tentacles from your life. In that process, many here make friends and reconnect with old friends, free from the boundaries imposed by The Way Corpse "leadership." While I agree with you that getting counseling can be important for many, there are things that only other ex-TWI people can understand. Think of this as like AlAnon or some other support group. While we aren't likely to relapse back to TWI, we have ways of thinking that would lead us down similar paths, and we all can use the support.
I don't follow what you are saying. If twi were destroyed, it can't hurt you anymore. It will always be around. It will always inflict pain.
I copied and pasted this back from the posts that were moved, because it is on topic and I am not looking for a discussion on that other subject. I removed reference to it.
IN MY OPINION- all Paw wants to do is have more time to pursue other interests which I think everyone agrees is his right and perhaps, his duty, to himself. He asked in the poll if we thought GSC was still viable etc. If the people who responded had largely said "No" then it would have been silly for him to look at other ways to maintain GSC from the way he has done it.
Because the poll DOES show an interest in keeping the site open, it is worthwhile to decide how best to do that, if in fact he wants to keep it open as a live forum. Lots of help has been offered to him if he wants to go that route.
Now it is up to Paw to decide which way to go. Changing the way things are done here does not need to be the end of a journey. It can be a turn in the road or a change of drivers. The back seat drivers do not need to take the wheel however, and we might not even have the necessary license.
Paw, please go where you need to go in life no matter what US back seat driver's tell you! Please just be in a happier place.
I've been told by people who leave HQ that, (we'll call him Rev. Buttwad), they are told not to speak negatively of HQ when they leave or they will be held legally liable. Something to do with the paperwork they sign when they come in. So some people won't talk about twi, here, there or anywhere, for fear of getting sued.
Maybe something to consider as twi adapts to websites like this.
It seems to me that the threat of legal actions from TWI makes PAW'S policy of anonymity all the more viable and needful and I am thankful for it.
Instead of "Rev. Buttwad" I will refer to this hypothetical person or persons you refer to as "the abused."
Now if the abused needs therapy I would hope that, legally speaking, the confidentiality clauses that TWI forced upon the abused would be sent through a shredder by any reasonable legal system.
Maybe the abused could benefit by Greasespot sharings without any posting at all on the part of the abused.
If the abused shared anything with me or others more privately I'm certain that many of the greasespotters would be wise enough to protect the abused's anonymity and call TWI to task if the door opens to be able to do both.
To quote Wierwille, TWI "can kiss my righteous foot." (The automated censor switched my posterior reference to the less obnoxious "foot."
Anybody can be sued for anything, it costs virtually nothing to file a civil lawsuit, whether they will win is the question. Considering TWI is a known cult, outside of liabel-written defamation against an individual-which has to be proven as false, TWI has no legs to stand on, thousands of cases where they have been the abusers have come out in writing on this very website, I would think lawsuits would be anti-productive for them.
This sounds like the same scare tactics they have used on so many for decades.
I'm not splitting hairs with you at all now I see, I'm certain that you are correct when you say that these TWI scare tactics have been in use that long.
It's just that I've only been aware of them for about a year. I am not quick to guess whether or not a person is just voicing their concerns or actually deliberately using a scare tactic because I really don't care to speculate about an individual's motivation.
Either way the detrimental effect of these scare tactics would have on the scared folks who would otherwise post seem obvious. As a matter of fact these scare tactics here at the Greasespot have seemed transparently obvious to me in my short time here.
(added in editing)
Not to get too far off track, but it has been the bullying that has been espescially irksome. It sounds like PAW has understandably wearied by the more-or-less constant beating the bullies throw at him.
Freedom of speech governs the right to "speak", but it isn't absolute.
An employer could require an employee to sign something to the effect they wouldn't speak negatively about the company but the right to free speech would likely supercede that.
TWI isn't going to sue all of it's ex-employees that might leave and have something bad to say. If the information isn't proprietary or confidential but is negative and specific - hmmmmmm......what's to sue over?
As they say "I'm not a lawyer" but I doubt that agreement would hold water, if challenged. I'd suggest anyone that works at the Way and is concerned take their employment paperwork and run it by a lawyer and see. Or call the state employment office and run it by them over the phone, see what that stands. I suspect - barely on one leg.
If twi were serious about sueing over written negative statements as Bolshevik's original statement said, "I've been told by people who leave HQ that... they are told not to speak negatively of HQ when they leave or they will be held legally liable", they would have sued almost everyone who posts here already. Threatening those who leave has no teeth in it IMO, and it smacks of what Jim Jones did to his followers in making them sign blank pieces of paper, then filling out the statement when they needed to hold it against the person. I don't think any kind of non disclosure statement signing could be upheld in court unless it was signed as an employee, except if that employee was forced to go on payroll or be disbarred, then the respondent could give them (twi) a run for their money.
Twi has used scare tactics for decades, this particular one may or may not have been used the entire time on decenters, all I know is they act like goons when it suits them and they always have. And BTW, I too believe Paw should keep the public view board annonymous, and leave it up to the poster to pick their user name.
What're they gonna do - prevent you from saying "I didn't like it there, they didn't blah blah blah and they did blah blah blah".
THIS LINK explains the "at will" employment laws in Ohio. They actually govern both sides of termination, employer and employer initiated. Note the statements in this section - they're observed in every state of the U.S. -
Discrimination and Wrongful Termination
Employers are not allowed to terminate or discriminate against employees for the following reasons:
Age
Race
Sex
Religion
National origin
Disability
Pregnancy
It's illegal for an employer to consider these characteristics with regard to:
Promotions
Job assignments
Termination
Wages
And it's illegal for an employer to terminate an employee:
For refusing to break a law
In retaliation for filing a discrimination or safety claim
For taking leave under the Family and Medical Leave Act
Without following its own stated procedure or policy
For reasons not contained in the employment contract, if one exists
---------------------
These items relate to any employer and any employee. For the Way or anyone to cover enough ground in an employment contract to allow for and permit any and all violations of any kind that might relate to these would seem....suspect. One would think.
I mean, if the job was "Sky Diver from a Burning Airplane", maybe some loose language is in order. But working for a church? You'd think that would be one of the most protected and safest environments one could work in. One would think.
How this relates to the poll - gimme a minute. Okay -
I think a simple common sense case could be made that it's always viable for a person to register dissastisfaction with...something.
If someone's tweaked about doing it because they're afraid of recourse - think about it. This is America, peep's.
One more thing...a non disclosure contract is usually regarding copyright or trade secrets type information, not complaints of deceit and wrongful termination. Whatever they signed as Socks stated above, even as employees, has no bearing on what is normally cited on this website. Any departing twi member should inquire with an Ohio Employment Attorney to get more information on the subject if they are concerned. Twi's tactics have no legs in court, I'd like to see them try, it would be great to have someone actually complete a lawsuit and win, and not settle out of court.
They may have no leg to stand on in court, but it seems like "innies" and "ex-wayfers" alike will believe any given reason not to blame wierwille or twi. How many people have been a part of twi? 100,000? More or less? There are less than 3,000 posters here. Some are duplicates, some are WayGB. It's not exactly hard to find this website. I have had "innies" tell me to come to GS, it is humor to them.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Nice post leafy...straight from the heart.
...and also a great example of why many of us have been here for years. I'll be honest...I "got over it" a looooooooong time ago...but I continue to post because there are still a lot of folks out there who need to hear this stuff. It's something that I can do (a little caustic at times :) , but hey, every class needs it's clown...
...and there IS a steady stream of new people coming here almost daily...viable?...you bet.
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Bolshevik
Are new people at GSC people really in the dark? How much dirt do you need to know before the light bulb goes off? I talk to "old-timers" in person and they say they didn't have any idea that The Way is a cult. Then I remind them of things I heard when I wasn't old enough to go to school, and then they just sulk, or some people just get more religious. They're just on autopilot. Everyone in The Way knows they are in a cult. Everyone who left knows it was a mistake. Is nobody willing to admit it until they hear one of their peers say it first?
Don't those who "join" The Way usually have issues to start with? Aren't those the issues The Way preys upon? Aren't those the issues that need to be dealt with? Who really joined The Way for doctrinal reasons?
And, once "ex-wayfers" get together and discuss the "Whoa, what happened?" What next? Does anyone grab a sledge-hammer, walk to New Knoxville, and unleash another form of medicine on the "Victor Paul Wierwille Prevailing Word Auditorium," that building that was built with the money and labor of the "old-timers?"
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waysider
Those are tough questions Mr. B
I really don't think there are any "one size fits all" answers.
You may have a slightly different perspective on this because, being a wayfer kid, you didn't join The Way by choice. Part of what the current generation (not just wayfers) may have a hard time understanding is the social culture that existed in the 1960's. Many of us were driven by a desire to make the World a better place. Serving the organization (The Way) was viewed by some as a spiritual equivalent to joining The Peace Corps, a way to make a difference and please God simultaneously. Instead, we unwittingly became pawns in a second rate pyramid scheme.
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leafytwiglet
edited cause waysider said it all better
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JesseJoe
Hey, Bolshevic. Thanks for your post. I appreciate your frankness. Views such as yours always makes me think, reevaluate.
You wrote, “Is nobody willing to admit it until they hear one of their peers say it first?”
It isn’t about my admitting I was in a cult. It is a matter of me being able accept what happened to me. It is about being able to talk it through with the only people I have ever found that understand. They understand because they were there. It is about validation of feelings and learning I am ok.
I left as Leafy and her husband did. I thought I had failed God. I didn’t leave because I thought I was in a Cult.
TWI taught us not to question. If something was wrong we were responsible because we weren’t mature enough, we didn’t believe enough, we didn't study enough, we gave our ABS to some one in need and not God's Ministry, we were thinking evil, we were out of fellowship, we were off the word, or any number of other BS things that were pounded into our heads. The sad part is, at the time it made sense and I believed it.
Remember?
“”””””If you can control your mind, you can control your entire life.””””””
Such BS.
GSC allowed me to question. I learned I wasn’t responsible for every “negative” in my life. It is ok to tell it like it is, even when others call it thinking evil. I learned .... happens and no amount of believing is going to change that. I learned so much, most after I started posting, exposing my shame and my guilt.
Anyway, thanks.
Life isn’t as cut and dry as TWI would have us believe.
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now I see
I also think the way you left TWI also is significant in relation to the GS community and web board. Those who left on their own accord might not be as needy as those who were hurt by TWI before they departed. The residual and haunting feelings of guilt, of failure, betrayal, anger, and sorrow would be present if one was kicked out, M & A, or betrayed and abused by those in power. I literally felt as if my heart was torn out of me when I left, it felt like I was going through a divorce.
I was on the outside for 20 years, even in a splinter group for some of those years, before I stumbled across GS and found the missing pieces of the puzzle. That was only 2 years ago...Is the GS still a viable resource? It still is for me, I still experience healing here, even to this day, hurt turns to anger, anger turns to peace.
Those still in Wayland, are still regurgitating the rhetoric dogma their leaders are feeding them, they are in a place which is comfortable for them, and they are afraid of the devil who is in everything that isn't TWI. They may be a lost cause....Even so, we still hope that some will trickle out...I think that hope is what keeps GS here...More like a lighthouse sending it's beacon out to searching ships, and like a shepherd calling to it's lost sheep.
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geisha779
Maybe the overall story has been told. The Way International is a cult. SO. . .
What does that mean? I think it means that. . . .
Each of us have a story. A unique tale of our time in TWI. What happened to us as individuals . . . and that is what fills in the gaps. . . completes the story. . . that is what exposes the lies . . . the truth of us.
It is important because we are important. . . and what happened to us matters. We matter. All the hurt. . . the pain. . . the trauma. . . it is real. . . and I don't care if it happened twenty years ago or yesterday. . . it happened.
It did help to shape us, and YES. . of course. . . . it does not have to define us. . . Yet, who is really willing listen and understand. . . able to relate to the mixed cornucopia of emotions that come with having been in a cult? Our cult.
Those who have lived it. Those who know.
There are many of us extwiers. . . yet in the "real world" it seems very few. . . .
I am glad to have heard the stories and shared some of mine. . it really has helped me put my cult daze into a better perspective.
I don't share my cult experience with many. . . it seems too often to throw up an invisible wall. . . It is not everyday conversation either, and if someone has not experienced it. . . . they don't know.
People who find themselves in groups like TWI. . . are not all crazy or broken, many are educated, sensitive, caring, GOODhearted people.
We got caught up in something. . . we thought it was right. . . maybe it just wasn't that easy to see how it was changing or shaping us. Even now, maybe some don't.
But, what GSC has done is . . . it has helped me so much to see those things more clearly, because it is a shared experience and when I hear others. . it serves to clarify. It really does.
And for the record. . . I am of the opinion that ex-twiers are among the best and brightest.
So, as long as there are those who haved lived the "abundant life" Way Style. . . this place is viable.
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T-Bone
I voted that it is still viable. I may have a small inkling of Paw's feelings when I think of the times I've been hot & heavy on Grease Spot. It does take time and energy to post, of course – but this place is so special to me - in that I tend to get so wrapped up in a line of thought, enjoy exploring all its aspects while getting to know some folks with a similar experience.
I do think Grease Spot has had a very positive impact on my life and has definitely affected the way I look at religion and belief systems. I hope Grease Spot NEVER goes away - and pray that things work out for its continuity.
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tonto
I voted that it is still viable, but I can't even begin to imagine how the running of this place has impacted your life. Shoot, we have had to "put down the mouse and step away from the computer" because this place was getting to be an addiction for us...and we didn't even have the headaches of moderating, much less the nightmare of nasty emails and such. Good grief Paw, do what you need to do for yourself (and I am so happy that you and Shellon have made a "love connection).
By the way, we were both so happy to meet you and see you at the two bbq's...what a genuine pleasure to get to "hang" with you and DW and the gang. Our door is always open, so if you ever travel this way we'd love to have you visit us.
Big kisses and hugs to you, and I wish you peace and happiness.
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Mister P-Mosh
Who designated you a god, or a representative of everyone in The Way still? There are plenty of people that don't think it is a cult. Some people were kicked out, and may not yet realize it was a mistake (e.g. splinter groups), and not everyone knows what you know.
What about people who joined because a loved one joined? What about kids raised in that environment? There are people who joined for doctrinal reasons, because face it, VPW offered a new spin on Christianity, and the idea that you don't have to wear a suit every Sunday and sit in a gothic stadium is an interesting concept.
It's not about destroying TWI, it's about healing yourself and removing TWI's tentacles from your life. In that process, many here make friends and reconnect with old friends, free from the boundaries imposed by The Way Corpse "leadership." While I agree with you that getting counseling can be important for many, there are things that only other ex-TWI people can understand. Think of this as like AlAnon or some other support group. While we aren't likely to relapse back to TWI, we have ways of thinking that would lead us down similar paths, and we all can use the support.
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dmiller
Maybe *Passing the Mantle* might be more appropriate, eh??
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JesseJoe
I agree wholeheartedly :)
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Bolshevik
I don't follow what you are saying. If twi were destroyed, it can't hurt you anymore. It will always be around. It will always inflict pain.
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Mod Kirk
The posts that follow the preceding remark about a mantle have been moved to a new thread. Enjoy!
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HAPe4me
I copied and pasted this back from the posts that were moved, because it is on topic and I am not looking for a discussion on that other subject. I removed reference to it.
IN MY OPINION- all Paw wants to do is have more time to pursue other interests which I think everyone agrees is his right and perhaps, his duty, to himself. He asked in the poll if we thought GSC was still viable etc. If the people who responded had largely said "No" then it would have been silly for him to look at other ways to maintain GSC from the way he has done it.
Because the poll DOES show an interest in keeping the site open, it is worthwhile to decide how best to do that, if in fact he wants to keep it open as a live forum. Lots of help has been offered to him if he wants to go that route.
Now it is up to Paw to decide which way to go. Changing the way things are done here does not need to be the end of a journey. It can be a turn in the road or a change of drivers. The back seat drivers do not need to take the wheel however, and we might not even have the necessary license.
Paw, please go where you need to go in life no matter what US back seat driver's tell you! Please just be in a happier place.
~HAP
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Bolshevik
I've been told by people who leave HQ that, (we'll call him Rev. Buttwad), they are told not to speak negatively of HQ when they leave or they will be held legally liable. Something to do with the paperwork they sign when they come in. So some people won't talk about twi, here, there or anywhere, for fear of getting sued.
Maybe something to consider as twi adapts to websites like this.
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JeffSjo
Hi Bolshevik,
It seems to me that the threat of legal actions from TWI makes PAW'S policy of anonymity all the more viable and needful and I am thankful for it.
Instead of "Rev. Buttwad" I will refer to this hypothetical person or persons you refer to as "the abused."
Now if the abused needs therapy I would hope that, legally speaking, the confidentiality clauses that TWI forced upon the abused would be sent through a shredder by any reasonable legal system.
Maybe the abused could benefit by Greasespot sharings without any posting at all on the part of the abused.
If the abused shared anything with me or others more privately I'm certain that many of the greasespotters would be wise enough to protect the abused's anonymity and call TWI to task if the door opens to be able to do both.
To quote Wierwille, TWI "can kiss my righteous foot." (The automated censor switched my posterior reference to the less obnoxious "foot."
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now I see
Anybody can be sued for anything, it costs virtually nothing to file a civil lawsuit, whether they will win is the question. Considering TWI is a known cult, outside of liabel-written defamation against an individual-which has to be proven as false, TWI has no legs to stand on, thousands of cases where they have been the abusers have come out in writing on this very website, I would think lawsuits would be anti-productive for them.
This sounds like the same scare tactics they have used on so many for decades.
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JeffSjo
Decades!?
I'm not splitting hairs with you at all now I see, I'm certain that you are correct when you say that these TWI scare tactics have been in use that long.
It's just that I've only been aware of them for about a year. I am not quick to guess whether or not a person is just voicing their concerns or actually deliberately using a scare tactic because I really don't care to speculate about an individual's motivation.
Either way the detrimental effect of these scare tactics would have on the scared folks who would otherwise post seem obvious. As a matter of fact these scare tactics here at the Greasespot have seemed transparently obvious to me in my short time here.
(added in editing)
Not to get too far off track, but it has been the bullying that has been espescially irksome. It sounds like PAW has understandably wearied by the more-or-less constant beating the bullies throw at him.
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socks
Hmmmm...is this another poll?
Just kdding -
Freedom of speech governs the right to "speak", but it isn't absolute.
An employer could require an employee to sign something to the effect they wouldn't speak negatively about the company but the right to free speech would likely supercede that.
TWI isn't going to sue all of it's ex-employees that might leave and have something bad to say. If the information isn't proprietary or confidential but is negative and specific - hmmmmmm......what's to sue over?
As they say "I'm not a lawyer" but I doubt that agreement would hold water, if challenged. I'd suggest anyone that works at the Way and is concerned take their employment paperwork and run it by a lawyer and see. Or call the state employment office and run it by them over the phone, see what that stands. I suspect - barely on one leg.
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now I see
If twi were serious about sueing over written negative statements as Bolshevik's original statement said, "I've been told by people who leave HQ that... they are told not to speak negatively of HQ when they leave or they will be held legally liable", they would have sued almost everyone who posts here already. Threatening those who leave has no teeth in it IMO, and it smacks of what Jim Jones did to his followers in making them sign blank pieces of paper, then filling out the statement when they needed to hold it against the person. I don't think any kind of non disclosure statement signing could be upheld in court unless it was signed as an employee, except if that employee was forced to go on payroll or be disbarred, then the respondent could give them (twi) a run for their money.
Twi has used scare tactics for decades, this particular one may or may not have been used the entire time on decenters, all I know is they act like goons when it suits them and they always have. And BTW, I too believe Paw should keep the public view board annonymous, and leave it up to the poster to pick their user name.
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socks
Indeed.
What're they gonna do - prevent you from saying "I didn't like it there, they didn't blah blah blah and they did blah blah blah".
THIS LINK explains the "at will" employment laws in Ohio. They actually govern both sides of termination, employer and employer initiated. Note the statements in this section - they're observed in every state of the U.S. -
Discrimination and Wrongful Termination
Employers are not allowed to terminate or discriminate against employees for the following reasons:
It's illegal for an employer to consider these characteristics with regard to:
And it's illegal for an employer to terminate an employee:
---------------------
These items relate to any employer and any employee. For the Way or anyone to cover enough ground in an employment contract to allow for and permit any and all violations of any kind that might relate to these would seem....suspect. One would think.
I mean, if the job was "Sky Diver from a Burning Airplane", maybe some loose language is in order. But working for a church? You'd think that would be one of the most protected and safest environments one could work in. One would think.
How this relates to the poll - gimme a minute. Okay -
I think a simple common sense case could be made that it's always viable for a person to register dissastisfaction with...something.
If someone's tweaked about doing it because they're afraid of recourse - think about it. This is America, peep's.
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now I see
One more thing...a non disclosure contract is usually regarding copyright or trade secrets type information, not complaints of deceit and wrongful termination. Whatever they signed as Socks stated above, even as employees, has no bearing on what is normally cited on this website. Any departing twi member should inquire with an Ohio Employment Attorney to get more information on the subject if they are concerned. Twi's tactics have no legs in court, I'd like to see them try, it would be great to have someone actually complete a lawsuit and win, and not settle out of court.
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Bolshevik
They may have no leg to stand on in court, but it seems like "innies" and "ex-wayfers" alike will believe any given reason not to blame wierwille or twi. How many people have been a part of twi? 100,000? More or less? There are less than 3,000 posters here. Some are duplicates, some are WayGB. It's not exactly hard to find this website. I have had "innies" tell me to come to GS, it is humor to them.
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