I don't know, that answer might best come from those who are newest here. I can, however, tell you what Greasespot did for me.
It helped me undo all of the wrong teaching I got out of TWI. It helped me see the illogic of what was taught and how those teachings hurt me. It helped me realize I wasn't alone in what I experienced. It helped me realized I was in an abusive marriage and it helped me find my way out of it.
Here, I met many wonderful people and learned from many great threads. There was one thread in particluar, that got me ineterested in learning more about logical and critical thinking skills. Because of that thread I took a college course on the subject and earned the highest grade in the class. In doing so, I learned I was't stupid or incapable of earning a college degree and I continued with my education.
My life is significantly changed for the better, because of my experience here at the cafe. In fact, if it weren't for Paw and Greasespot, I may very well have returned to TWI and stayed in an abusive marriage. I would never have realized the potential within me.
For those of you who don't like the way Paw or the Moderators run this place, there is a simple solution. Don't let the door hit you in the behind on the way out. The man gives of his time and money and all he has asked in return is that we disagree respectfully. That we behave as if we are adults when we post on the forums.
As for editing posts - the solution is very simple. Step back, take a deep breath and re-read what you wrote BEFORE you hit the "Add Reply" button. In the real world, once you have spoken you cannot go back and delete what you said. Live with it or get over it or just don't post.
As I frequently tell my children, there are rules we must follow in life, even as adults. They may not always seem to us to be fair, but we must follow them anyway. Why would you think the forums would be different? Why would you think that just because you can hide behind a screen name that it is okay to be as rude and beligerant as you want?
TWI caught me on the hamster wheel of circular thinking…
How could a great class come from a bad man?
This had me spinning and undelivered for YEARS. I was afraid to go to church, to think, I loved God but (upon the removing of layers of wrong teaching - I saw) I truly was afraid I was going to be a greasespot by midnight. I had dreams of “vein popping Craig” and of a not very well endowed Weirwille. But most of my nightmares were about me in “real life” being unable to move forward.
Jesus says:
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." - Matthew 11:28-30
I knew this in my head. My heart somewhere carried the messages of LCM and VPW that “somehow I left God and my life would befell many hardships”. Really their words were as curses and "if believed" would manifest as stated. This enabled fear to have a foot hold.
The ministry, and do not doubt it is a ministry, of Pawtucket here at Greasespot and the site of John Juedes have enabled me to break free of the “curses” spoken over us by TWI to their congregation.
Pawtucket and John Juedes have suffered many brutal verbal attacks (IMO) as a result of their mission/calling/direction/kindness to try and help people get out of a corn field cult.
There are those that cry “I love you, Paw.” Or “Thank God for John” or even how grateful they were to people such as “Ralph” but act as a venomous snake slithering through the grasses to bite the ankle of people actually doing something to help the hurting.... shame on you.
I am a firm believer in actions speaking louder than words. You cannot love a man then seek to destroy him with the knife in your right hand while feeding him candy in your left. The biggest insult I see is to then call their site a “cult” which is the complete 180 degree turn from the truth, or say to a crusader of truth – “you should have done more…” While their cigarette/cigar ash hangs precariously over their 9th martini. Which to me means those carrying those accusations are housing “devils” themselves. (ill intentions for those who do not believe in spirits)
Yet, John Juedes stayed open, Pawtucket continued, and even Ralph offered his helping hand when led. But some whinny, crying, destructive entities can rise up from their kitchen table and in their ministry of “one” decide to object to any and all things that bother them, while adding nothing to humanity or goodness, while offering no safe haven to the lost – this is ludicrous. And yet we give (((hugs))) and “I love you’s" because we are too inept to figure out how to really help these idiotic, attacking, sniping people. But Paw? He who suffers most of the attacks? He continues forward. That folks, to me, is amazing.
So, to all the people who have flame broiled Pawtucket, let me ask you what good have you done here? In your life? What lamp have YOU offered to the lost in the night?
“What good are you?”
When you snarl at the hand offering you food? Or you reject the life raft sent to you as you are tossed at sea? Perhaps, your only identity comes from being able to SNAP and try and destroy the “goodness” of people like Paw because you folks KNOW in reality you were being led to get off your own lazy azz and do something to make the world a better place but refused to do so… So, in your own guilt, you folks (those this is applicable to) seek to destroy a person who did what he was suppose to do because you were too weak to do anything but complain about him. This destruction gave you "power" – my question is – who ya working” for?
I do not think GS has jumped the shark. But I do think Paw is entitled to have a life. (Change your phone number Paw.)
And I do think those who have enamored his destruction, bashed his attempts and sabotaged him, need to look in the mirror. What drives this behavior?
“Is this written to me?” Well, if the shoe fits wear it. If not, then it is not your shoe.
And Paw if and when I have been someone who has disrupted your life - please forgive me. I am truly sorry.
But I knew this in my head. My heart somewhere carried the messages of LCM and VPW that “somehow I left God and my life would befell many hardships”. Really their words were as curses and if believed would manifest as stated.
The ministry, and do not doubt it is a ministry, of Pawtucket here at Greasespot and the site of John Juedes have enabled me to break free of the “curses” spoken over us by TWI to their congregation.
I feel the same way.
---------------------------------------------
Something else I've thought about:
Ever notice how lots of people who come here haven't had much previous on-line experience?
I know I surely hadn't.
Yet, because of the nature of the site's purpose, people reach out and help each other to navigate and search and find answers. You don't find that on many other sites where the order of the day seems to be "every man for himself". GSC is more than just a web site. It's a community.
A better question might be, does Greasespot "work?"
Abigail's post might help.
If Pawtucket wants a clear answer to his question, he should just print it out, and frame it. It's the only one that matters. It exemplifies Greasespot as a platform for an ex-TWI participant to realize growth, true independence, and self-sufficiency.
Did Greasespot transform Abigail's life? No, not at all. Abigail did that. She learned what she needed to know about a bad choice (TWI). In discussions with others here, she found new interests and discovered hidden talents. She then made her own choices. She worked, and she worked hard, and achieved her own success.
Greasespot was only a passive environment, Pawtucket was the facilitator, nothing more. But that made all the difference, right? It was enough. It should be enough. It MUST be enough. That's all there is, folks. Any further expectation is your personal delusion, projected upon Greasespot.
To make any more of Greasespot then what it is, a provocative discussion board, and controversial information source, is to make much less of it. By some of the testimonials here, it's become a dysfunctional fantasy replacing that of The Way International, and -some of you- making Pawtucket into some kind of improvised Moses. (Remember, Moses didn't like being Moses at times either, for familiar reasons.)
If you want information about Wierwille's cult, come to Greasespot. If you want to socialize with others who share TWI's experience, come to Greasespot. If you want your life to change, come to Greasespot, but realize you still must look within, make your own choices, and act. That's the only way it will happen.
Some people will never be content until they're truly miserable. Maybe that's you. Sorry but Greasespot won't save you. Either choose to grow up, OR, if you're really committed to your fantasy, go back to TWI. (Professional help is a healthier third option, by the way.)
If you do go back to Way World, it's probably like going back to sleep, but for the rest of your life. Sweet dreams, send my regards to Rosalie, but you will never be satisfied here.
Well I am a new person here at GSC so maybe what I say does have some merit since I am new for me GSC is the sum of all its' parts.
I have found good information here about what "The Way International " really was. Some of it i already knew or suspected but a lot of it I didn't.
It is a place to find links to more information if you should so desire.. a place to connect with old friends and or make new friends
It is a place to get information on other sources for healing or even more information on TWI
Posters on here for the most part are friendly and helpful... have a question and they jump in and help.
What have I gleaned from GSC
well to date I have found peace with our decision to leave The Way.. Most of you know this but some don't My Husband and I left early on in TWI before VPW died before the Craig Fiasco.
My husband was Corps but was struggling with his perceived inability to live up to the ideals of Corps. We left so he could survive. We thought we were some how abandoning God and it was a difficult decision and a shaky 5 days of turmoil in our hearts.
The questions about was it the right thing or the wrong thing have plagued me for years
as did some of the teachings... which have kept me from going to church or finding the right group of people to spend my time with.
For me finding GSC has given me knowledge, and with that knowledge comes peace.
I am still working my way through the preponderance of information.
on here but I will make it through.
I have learned a lot about some very brave people on here, and have met some wonderful folks.
For me GSC has not "Jumped the shark" For me it was a life line and a welcome fount of information.
The social aspect of it is wonderful too because some of the people I have met have added theri own wiew of the way and given information on what they saw. giving a more fuller understanding of what I left. And been patient with me as I see VPW for who he really was.
So for very selfish reasons I say GSC is still viable.
Should it close down that is PAws choice.
I myself could set up a forum in like five minutes flat as could anyone else who is even a little in the computer know.. but I hope it doesn't happen like that.
a lot of work has gone into this site and it would be a shame to see it morph into something less than what it is.
There are many ministries and the Moses ministry is one of them. If one chooses to equate what Pawtucket has done to that of Moses it would be their own inability to see beyond the hemmed in definitions given to certain “ministries” or to make smaller the vastness of God’s ubiquitous nature --being able to provide for the hurting-- by those willing to open their arms in many aspects of “ministry.” So, in agreement (written in my own understanding) with Satori if one sees Paw as Moses --- they need to eventually look up and see God.
I once led people across a rushing stream but I did not see my mission as “Moses like”. It was a stream. The only thing in common was the water and the need to cross it.
Pawtucket, John Juedes and many others which I believe include Raf, Socks and Evan have also crossed a swollen stream and that which was similar to Moses was “water”. I do not believe Moses is to be defined by this little board here called Greasespot, but nor do I believe the enormity of which God provided via Paw’s willingness to step forward should be minimized either. Simply different.
I, for one, now know the difference between GOD and looking for a person to be GOD to me. And earlier in the thread someone called those who said good things about Ralph “worshipers”. Nice try.
Just as I refer to Pawtucket as having a ministry I do not see him as the “way” through the swollen waters. But I do see him as ONE of us who stood up and DID something while a majority of people only "squeak up" with their meanness to try and hurt people who actually tried to do something… I see him as someone who did not sit down on the swollen banks and complain there is no way across it – but as one who did something to build a bridge. Ultimately it is the requirement of the person who WANTS to get from one point to the other to GET UP and walk across it. I agree with Abigail and Satori in that respect, which is what I gathered by their posts. But I do not agree in that he is a facilitator nothing more. He has given much more than that – and that may be the problem. Maybe he needs to back-up and let the "season change" from being a “ministry” to being a thick-skinned facilitator and let God work through others.
Perhaps, it is as simple as Paw turning off his phone, delegating responsibility, and those that want to be vulgar and cry like babies, at any and all chastisement, can go to the "other" site.
Well I am a new person here at GSC so maybe what I say does have some merit since I am new for me GSC is the sum of all its' parts.
IMO, your input is far more important than the opinions of those of us who have been here forever. Some of us have forgotten what it is like to find this place for the first time. Many of us no longer need to "process out," we've done that, even if we haven't all moved forward with our lives.
The input of "fresh eyes" is vital, I believe.
I have found good information here about what "The Way International " really was. Some of it i already knew or suspected but a lot of it I didn't.
The questions about was it the right thing or the wrong thing have plagued me for years
as did some of the teachings... which have kept me from going to church or finding the right group of people to spend my time with.
For me finding GSC has given me knowledge, and with that knowledge comes peace.
For me GSC has not "Jumped the shark" For me it was a life line and a welcome fount of information.
And there, Paw, is perhaps the real answer you were looking for. To the people who are new here, the cafe is still viable and needed.
Perhaps the real problem is that some of us old-timers need to move out and on and start functioning in the real world, instead of harassing other people on the internet when things don't go their way.
That said, I also believe you are not obligated to keep the forums open. You have given your life blood to this place and it is reasonable to say "enough is enough."
Modern Chat is not any kind of Anti GSC or anti PawT board.
It is merely a posting board, largely populated by ex JWs, where a number of ex TWI posters also post.
They are all very welcome and their input deeply appreciated.
I commented today that, looking thru the entirity of content in the Modern Chat TWI room, there may be as many as 10 threads which reference matters pertaining to the administrative decisions of this GSC board.
Well that is fair discussion in my view. If Modern Chats 12 or 15 ex TWI posters wish to criticize admin here, they are free to do so. If those posters wish to praise admin here, they are free to do so. If they wish to reference discussions here and cut paste comments, they are free to do so.
Fact is, they are free to discuss anything they so desire, if they wish to do so.
I. for one, no longer need deliverance from TWI (though, since I attend a spinoff of a spinoff, some might disagree). What I get most from GS is the interaction with so many folks here. Some, I've had the pleasure of meeting in person (Dooj, Tom Strange, Paw, Ex10, DWBH, and others); others, I may never meet but consider kindred spirits (Raf, WordWolf, socks, excathedra, Sudo, nowI see, and others); some, I don't know if I'd slug or have a beer with if we actually met (well, Rocky is the only one presently in this category).
I'd really hate to see GS go; but, obviously, Paw's need for peace in his own life are more important than my need for cyber-buddies. But if the site (or at least the forums) can be handed off to another, I'd like to have it stick around.
FWIW. (See, I never knew about all these abbreviations before GS!)
As for editing posts - the solution is very simple. Step back, take a deep breath and re-read what you wrote BEFORE you hit the "Add Reply" button. In the real world, once you have spoken you cannot go back and delete what you said.
Live with it
or get over it
or just don't post.
Mostly, I just don't do GS much any more. (Only partly because of the edit thing.)
--
"Get over it?" There's a peculiar choice of words.
Mostly, I just don't do GS much any more. (Only partly because of the edit thing.)
--
"Get over it?" There's a peculiar choice of words.
Yeah, well, you can't please all of the people even some of the time. Sometimes you just have to put your big girl or big boy panties on and deal with things you don't like - or set a boundary and walk away. That is just life.
I'm not asking anyone to "get over" being raped, abused, manipulated, etc. I'm simply suggesting people take responsibility for their own lives. Take responsibility for the words you post. Take responsibility for deciding to hit the "reply" button.
Yeah, well, you can't please all of the people even some of the time. Sometimes you just have to put your big girl or big boy panties on and deal with things you don't like - or set a boundary and walk away. That is just life.
I'm not asking anyone to "get over" being raped, abused, manipulated, etc. I'm simply suggesting people take responsibility for their own lives. Take responsibility for the words you post. Take responsibility for deciding to hit the "reply" button.
Oh stop.
Have you never written something that looked right and a day later thought of a better word, or example, or whatever? Well I do. All the time.
I've never deleted a post because I was covering up for anything. I've only ever changed a post to make the statement stronger or clearer. But please remind me, who have I ever backed down from Abigail? (Boring me to death doesn't count.) When would I ever "cover my..." whatever? Greasespot was never that much fun unless there was a good argument going, all comers welcome, and when the wet-nurses started moderating the "Tics" forum, I was done.
Thanks for the lecture, by the way. Cut and paste job? Sounds well-rehearsed.
There's another side to this. I can "imagine" that some people who have deleted posts (when it was still possible, beyond the current time limit) were probably horrified by the ugliness of what they read in response to something deeply personal and regrettably confessional, and I sympathize with them, not for myself. Or maybe they revealed something confidential or hurtful in a weak or candid emotional moment and they wanted to limit the damage. In all cases, it's quite likely they over-estimated the intelligence and sensitivity of the respondents at Greasespot with an ill-advised post.
It is cruel, in that circumstance, to prevent the person from modifying or deleting their words. And it disgusts me that they might have to go crawling to some anonymous moderator to request the official favor of editing or removing their own words, and possibly be turned down by some lightweight rule enforcer, who is without a legitimate clue to what's going on with that person, and may well have a personal axe to grind behind their anonymous pseudonym. Feels so much like how The Way handled people, arbitrary and distant.
So the first "mod's" denial means what, another appeal, and another, and ultimately a 3am call to Pawtucket perhaps to beg? It's degrading. It's demeaning. It's humiliating. And how some of the nastier ones here seem to live for this @#$. GS is their little soap opera, and the human lives on display their afternoon's entertainment. Their only purpose was so they might sit back and enjoy the show, watching the so-called policy torment the poster while they could lift their dirty hands and say "not me, I'm over here... just, um, taking it all in."
It's all hypothetical, of course. It's probably a great policy after all.
By the way, dealing with trolls are something else entirely, and moderators are more than equipped to deal with them already.
I do "get over" the truly small stuff, Abigail. But so often here, the devil is in the details. There is more to this than you appear to have time to consider. Doesn't matter. Nothing will change, will it?
Have you never written something that looked right and a day later thought of a better word, or example, or whatever? Well I do. All the time. ... I've only ever changed a post to make the statement stronger or clearer.
There is a solution to your 'dilemna' in this respect. It's called, ... make another post, expanding upon what you posted earlier.
Thanks for the lecture, by the way. Cut and paste job? Sounds well-rehearsed.
Really? Well, Abigail don't need no 'steenkin' cut and paste job. She's quite well spoken without any assistance from you, thank you very much.
... and when the wet-nurses started moderating the "Tics" forum, I was done.
Ahh yes, I remember that day now. You had one apparently award winning firey zinger thrown my way after one of my posts which apparently got your panties in a bunch (said response that I didn't get to see unfortunately), and when I came back to read it, it was *POOF*, gone (along with my post it responded to, I think). As I remember, you were _not_ happy about that. ... Ahh well. ((shrugs))
There's another side to this. I can "imagine" that some people who have deleted posts (when it was still possible, beyond the current time limit) were probably horrified by the ugliness of what they read in response to something deeply personal and regrettably confessional, and I sympathize with them, not for myself. Or maybe they revealed something confidential or hurtful in a weak or candid emotional moment and they wanted to limit the damage. In all cases, it's quite likely they over-estimated the intelligence and sensitivity of the respondents at Greasespot with an ill-advised post.
(insert sad violin dirge here)
It is cruel, in that circumstance, (snif) to prevent the person from modifying or deleting their words. And it disgusts me that they might have to go crawling to some anonymous moderator to request the official favor of editing or removing their own words, and possibly be turned down by some lightweight rule enforcer, who is without a legitimate clue to what's going on with that person, and may well have a personal axe to grind behind their anonymous pseudonym. Feels so much like how The Way handled people, arbitrary and distant.
... all this of which has to do with _any_ of your posts, ... how? :huh:
So the first "mod's" denial means what, another appeal, and another, and ultimately a 3am call to Pawtucket perhaps to beg?
You called Paw at 3 AM in the morning? Over some stupid post that you forgot to place 'editorial control' before you hit Send? :o
It's degrading. It's demeaning. It's humiliating.
So its kinda like being in some real life conversation where you speak before you think. Too bad you have absolutely NO editorial control over that. Oh by the way, (since I can _bet_ that you'd come back with some 'degrading, demeaning' ;) crack back at me in this context, might as well deflate this balloon of yours now) I, too, have undergone this very kind of 'Ooopsie!' moment in said social life a time or three. Everyone has. Well at least with me, I deal with learning from said 'Oopsie!' moment, take responsibility for it, learn from it, and move on; and NOT go thru a serious denial about the 'Ooopsie!' moment (via 'editorial control' of course ;) ), and expect the rest of the world to act like it never happened. ...
Oh well, like I said, that's life. We learn from it and then we move on. Life isn't a wet-nurse in that situation either.
There is more to this than you appear to have time to consider.
Actually, I think Abigail has considered her position quite thoroughly. Its just you don't particularly care for it.
Doesn't matter. Nothing will change, will it?
((starts up the sad violin dirge, again))
Oh by the way. I take full responsibility for previous post. And have not altered it in any way.
Ie., I'm Garth P. and I approve of this message. ;)
Crap! That last part "Oh by the way. I take full responsibility for previous post. And have not altered it in any way." I posted as a separate post, but it came on too soon, and was thus combined to the previous message.
There is never an adequate response to Garth, except that old, reliable, tried and true, vicious "personal attack." One reason GS has long since "moonwalked the mahi mahi," is because such "attacks" are no longer tolerated, despite being sorely, desperately needed, as Garth has so ably demonstrated just now.
Consider yourself deeply insulted Garth. Slice, dice. Slice, dice. You know the routine.
Now let me get this straight (Garth says in what (according to you-know-who) must be a 'personal attack' ... yeah, whatevah):
The _only_ adequate and valid response you can give my (supposedly, again, according to you-know-who) seriously flawed logic in my posts, is the 'vicious "personal attack."' (which of course, is no longer tolerated on said board, and thus sending us all 'moonwalking the mahi mahi').
Hhmmm, ... so why not instead demonstrate the superiority of your logic by clearly pointing out the hideously obvious (to you anyway) flaws in what I say (since I'm supposedly blind as the proverbial bat ), where at least others can see and learn from your solid wisdom (since I'm so far gone, unable/unwilling to 'be saved').
Why is that alternative not better than the (supposedly and 'sorely needed') vicious attack that you think is the only answer here?
And looks like my affliction is apparently affecting Abigail and Wordwolf here as well. ... My, my, my.
Or it could be where your rendering of this situation just isn't taking with us 'poor, inferior schmucks' here at the Mahi Mahi. ... Maybe, for good reason.
... Maybe, ... just maybe, ... we might even see something that you do not.
N-a-a-h-h! ... Can't be.
P.S., Just in case it isn't obvious to _some_ here ((wink wink)) ;), the above is dripping with sarcasm. ... Just wanted to be clear.
P.P.S., Even tho' I'm posting this at around 3AM in the morning, _please_ don't call Paw at this time and beg about this post.
I don't refer to you as Paw cause I do not know you. We might have or might have not met. I think the choice is your's and only your's. I will survive no matter what you do. Others may survive or not. You cannot save every forlorn cat/dog that comes you way. aas much as you want to, I've not said anything up until this point because bottom line if you cannot or desire not to continue this site it's your decison. do I want to see it go away?? no not really ,. but if the cost to you personally is too much I rather it go away, Those that seek will be filled , if they aren't well life was never said to be fair I applaud your effort but don't be a matyr for Jesus, Ex-Twi, or most of the other bullsh|t.
That's my $.02 give or take a couple of dollars due to inflation..
Have you never written something that looked right and a day later thought of a better word, or example, or whatever? Well I do. All the time.
That is a rather telling statement, Satori. All the time? Do you not ever learn from your mistakes? Do you have an impulse control problem that prevents you from walking away for a bit and then re-reading what you wrote before you hit the send button?
Of course I have written things I have regretted. In fact, I deleted nearly every post in "My Story" back in the day when such things could be done. I also learned from my mistakes and continue to learn from them. I've taken responsibility for my words and when I've had to, I've come back and explained myself better or sent a PM to an offended party to hash things out.
Greasespot was never that much fun unless there was a good argument going, all comers welcome, and when the wet-nurses started moderating the "Tics" forum, I was done.
I didn't realize the purpose of Greasespot was to entertain you. And, BTW, a good truly good debate, IMO, is one that doesn't require personal attacks, but one that has well presented arguments from all sides.
There's another side to this. I can "imagine" that some people who have deleted posts (when it was still possible, beyond the current time limit) were probably horrified by the ugliness of what they read in response to something deeply personal and regrettably confessional, and I sympathize with them, not for myself. Or maybe they revealed something confidential or hurtful in a weak or candid emotional moment and they wanted to limit the damage. In all cases, it's quite likely they over-estimated the intelligence and sensitivity of the respondents at Greasespot with an ill-advised post.
I'm sure this can, has, and still does occur on occassion. I too have sympathy for those new people who occassionally make this mistake. But, funny thing is, I'm betting it is often the same handful of people who make the same "mistake" over and over and over again and most of them have been around the cafe for years and years now. So, again, when will they learn? when will they grow up and take some responsibility for their own choices??
The holidays are a time to remember and plan ahead.
This place has been worthwhile for many over the years. I've enjoyed building it and seeing it grow. But that comes with a price. A price that has cost dearly at times. I am not looking for anything other than that you participate in this poll, so that I can get some feedback
For what it's worth, I appreciate what this site has been and what it has done for a lot of people. In my case, it finished doing what Waydale started: it answered ALL of my questions in regards to "what happened," it confirmed a lot of suspicions that prompted my quiet departure, and it removed a lot of illusions that I had about the "good old days."
For making the forum available, you have my gratitude. I am likewise in debt to all of those who provided the inputs to the forum.
As far as the poll is concerned, I didn't select any of the choices, as I didn't see that any of them adequately expressed my feelings about the place.
There is a huge library of information available through perusing this forum, particularly the archives and the "About the Way" section. Unfortunately, a lot of that information is not indexed and cross-referenced. A lot of the most valuable nuggets of information may not be in the original post of a thread -- they may appear in posts #82 and #173 out of 312 posts in a given thread. Thus, those nuggets might not be immediately accessible to n00bs who would search for them. If the forums transitioned to a read-only state, old timers here would not be able to answer the questions posed by those n00bs. And, FWIW, I really didn't have all of my questions answered until I had posted here for a couple of years. I didn't even know what some of the questions were when I first started posting here.
This is also a social club of sorts. There are those who post a lot on various and sundry topics that have nothing to do with helping answer TWI questions. There are those who rarely post and chat a lot. But the vast majority of us keep our eyes on the "About the Way" section and jump in when there is something to contribute. Of course, there is contentiousness no matter where you go (not only on this board, but anyplace on the 'Net).
Having said that, here is something to consider: allowing the contentiousness actually increases the credibility of the information posted here. If contentious and hurtful posts were deleted rather than refuted in the open, only one side of the story would be presented...as it stands, many of the arguments that a lurker might hear from the TWI (or splinter) side of the story are right here and are knocked down. A TWIt might hear "the girls asked for it" off line from the TWI leadership. But when that accusation is levied against a girl who was repeatedly raped on this site and that girl (plus 10-15 others) jump down the throat of the person making the claim, it sort-of removes any credibility of the "asked for it" claim. Excessive thread editing and excessive banning of posters would remove that strength.
Based upon what I've read on this thread, it's obvious that there is a lot of off-line stuff (e-mails, PMs, etc.) that I don't know and don't need to know. Frankly, if it's just e-mails/PMs, my advice is that there is a "delete" button on any e-mail client or web-based application. If it's something more serious than that (be it harassing phone calls, postal mail, stalking, credible physical threats, etc.), then that's another situation entirely. It is not my place to judge one way or the other, as I do not have anywhere close to all of the facts.
Bottom line, though, is that this site is your private property. Nobody, with the exception of you, has the right to be here. Nobody has the right to ask you to dedicate any more of your time than what you have done in the past. If you shut it down today, I don't think anybody who's been around for any length of time would have any call to criticize you for that decision.
But one thing: there are always n00bs joining this site. Always. That tells me that it still serves a purpose (whether or not that is the mark of viability is another issue altogether).
Just one suggestion: if the majority of your woes (outside of acting as an umpire for online arguments) are from e-mail/ PM threats, you might want to consider enlisting a couple of trusted, but relatively emotionally detached, people to screen your PM box and pawtucket@greasespotcafe.com e-mail box for harassing e-mails. Sort of like a secretary does for an executive: delete the spam, deal with the small stuff, and only pass on the important stuff for the executive to handle.
Regardless of your decision, you're in my prayers.
For the record WW, I have never called Pawtucket or anyone else regarding Greasespot at 3am, or at any time. If I've ever emailed Pawtucket, and I don't remember, I could count the times on one hand.
Somebody on this thread, probably Shellon, mentioned 3am calls, and I imagined that someone desperate enough to remove or change their post might resort to that.
And yes, much of my editing is cosmetic, but since I enjoy the process of writing, I take advantage of the opportunity to edit when it's there, to improve, clarify, distill... If I were a better writer, maybe I would get it right the first time, like everyone else here does.
--
Abigail,
As for the grow up and get over it mantra we love to chant here, that doesn't work for everyone affected by TWI. Some of us once joined the cult because it seemed like a great way to cut through the BS to a much improved spiritual life.
But others joined because life had already dealt them very badly. Those people found out that TWI was a fraud and they were no better off than the very bad situation that brought them in the first place, seeking real help. Some of them are here. And what do they hear? "Grow up." "Get over it." As if TWI were the worst of their troubles, and not a metaphor for their own lives.
If we think just for a moment, it's easy to realize these individuals may bear the crosses of a lifetime's worth of abuse, neglect, or pain. TWI is just the most recent chapter. And now Greasespot, for them, might become the icing on the cake, to satisfy somebody's sense of what? Propriety? Decency and order? Right.
Nice.
Yeah, we should all grow up.
--
I mentioned earlier that the hypothetical poster might over-estimate the intelligence and sensitivity of respondents here. Garth's lack of concern or comprehension is an excellent case in point. Thank you Garth. Other than crapping up a perfectly good thread with his irrepressible and inane posing, and with huge, irrelevant posts, he doesn't really bother me. And now we can "ignore" whoever we want. I do make use of that now, and it's great! But Garth often leads the charge for a whole tribe of his kind of poster, and those other hypothetical posters will be (have been, no doubt) drowned out or shouted down, again and again.
I dunno. I guess he likes telling himself that he stood up to me. Well done, Garth. Well done. Have a banana. Go find Tarzan.
The subject of this thread (and poll) is whether or not GS has "jumped the shark." All this discussion about editing posts or the inability to do so does not seem germane to me. If satori believes that GS is off-mission because he can no longer edit posts after a day, that's his opinion, and he can vote that way. I would tend to disagree; to me, that seems a bit trivial. On the other hand, if Paw decided to turn this into a site for a multi-level marketing business and discontinued it as an information source/meeting place for TWI "outies" (and "innies"), I would consider THAT "jumping the shark." As long as there are people who can be helped by this site, I think it should remain.
Satori, I want to preface this by stating I have a great deal of respect for you. Your posts here, in particular, helped me in ways above and beyond the posts of most others back in my early days at the cafe. But in this instance, I must respectfully disagree with you.
If I were a better writer, maybe I would get it right the first time, like everyone else here does.
Well I don't know about everyone else, but I certainly don't get it right the first time, the second time, and often even the third time. I gave up worrying about being perfect quite some time ago. I often leave behind typos, grammatical mistakes and misspelled words. Oh well, <shrug> I have better ways to spend my time than trying to make my posts perfect.
I have even less time for those (who are also imperfect, btw) who would criticize me harshly for being imperfect.
Abigail,
As for the grow up and get over it mantra we love to chant here, that doesn't work for everyone affected by TWI. Some of us once joined the cult because it seemed like a great way to cut through the BS to a much improved spiritual life.
Again, I am not asking and have never asked anyone to grow up and get over it when it comes to their experience with TWI or any type of abuse. However, I do think we can and NEED to take responsibility for our actions and choices, including the words we choose to post here. Indeed, I think failing to accept such responsibility is what made it so easy for us to just "follow the leader" while in TWI.
But others joined because life had already dealt them very badly. Those people found out that TWI was a fraud and they were no better off than the very bad situation that brought them in the first place, seeking real help. Some of them are here. And what do they hear? "Grow up." "Get over it." As if TWI were the worst of their troubles, and not a metaphor for their own lives.
If we think just for a moment, it's easy to realize these individuals may bear the crosses of a lifetime's worth of abuse, neglect, or pain. TWI is just the most recent chapter. And now Greasespot, for them, might become the icing on the cake, to satisfy somebody's sense of what? Propriety? Decency and order? Right.
Yeah, I do get that Satori. I am not unfamiliar, having experienced such things myself, long before I ever came across the likes of TWI. Perhaps through some twist of fate I was blessed either genetically or environmentally with the inner strength to eventually face my demons and move forward with my life. Or perhaps, through some twist of fate I was forced to find the inner strength to do so, when I was no longer able to find people who would enable my weaknesses in those areas. (which isn't to say I am perfect or have no weaknesses now).
In any event, I will again for the third time reiterate: I am not asking and have never asked anyone to grow up and get over it when it comes to their experience with TWI or any type of abuse.
I have great empathy for those who are new here, in particular. I also am fully persuaded that Paw and the moderators do as well. I would even go so far as to bet Paw wouldn't start a thread like this over getting phone calls at 3 a.m. from someone who was new here and screwed up in a post.
I would, however, bet that Paw might start a thread like this over getting phone calls at 3 a.m. from the same 3 or 4 people over and over and over again, people who have been here for 8, 9, or more years. IMO, continuing to pat these people on the head and fix their mistakes for them is simply enabling them and isn't truly helping them.
I'd even take it a step further and suggest that if, after 8, 9 or more years here you are still feeling incapable of coping because of your experiences with TWI or any other form of abuse - then maybe one ought to consider professional help. This place provides information and an opportunity to vent and exchange experiences, ideas and opinions, but it is not a replacement for professional counseling if that is what one needs.
As you said yourself, this place is a passive place. It is a place to receive information, perhaps vent, debate, give and receive empathy. But overall, at some point in time one has to become active in their own healing and recovery.
While I do believe there is some form of "group therapy" that can and at times does take place here, I don't believe we have any professionals acting in a professional capacity here. Some people simply may need to seek professional help to move them along their journey of healing.
And just maybe the problem here isn't Paw or the moderators and isn't the rules or how they are enforced. Perhaps the problem here is that some of us old-timers simply need to move on and make room for the newcomers. You, me, Dot, Sushi, WW, ExC, Garth, Oakspear, Rocky, Groucho - man the list could go on and on and on. We've been here since the beginning - many are from WayDale days. Perhaps we need to look within ourselves and ask "are we contributing to the solution or are we part of the problem?" Perhaps we need to ask "what am I getting out of this place anymore?" "Is this just a replacement for a social life for me or am I here because I truly want to help those who are still processing out of TWI?"
I am not suggesting the people I have named must leave and never post here again. I am simply suggesting we look within ourselves and ask ourselves what it is we are contributing to this place and what it is we are getting out of it.
P.S. See, Satori, I am fully persuaded we can have a respectful, spirited, and enjoyable debate on this topic without stooping to personal attacks or violating rules. We can do that (or at least I happen to believe we can) because I also believe you and I respect each other.
I have learned (thanks to my experience here at the cafe) that debating with someone who I do not respect and/or who does not respect me is ultimately a waste of my time. Not saying I don't still do it on occassion for various reasons, but I sure don't do it very often anymore. Life is too short to waste it arguing with people I don't even like. Once those minutes are gone they cannot be regained. I'd rather spend them with friends and family.
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Abigail
Is Greasespot still useful?
I don't know, that answer might best come from those who are newest here. I can, however, tell you what Greasespot did for me.
It helped me undo all of the wrong teaching I got out of TWI. It helped me see the illogic of what was taught and how those teachings hurt me. It helped me realize I wasn't alone in what I experienced. It helped me realized I was in an abusive marriage and it helped me find my way out of it.
Here, I met many wonderful people and learned from many great threads. There was one thread in particluar, that got me ineterested in learning more about logical and critical thinking skills. Because of that thread I took a college course on the subject and earned the highest grade in the class. In doing so, I learned I was't stupid or incapable of earning a college degree and I continued with my education.
My life is significantly changed for the better, because of my experience here at the cafe. In fact, if it weren't for Paw and Greasespot, I may very well have returned to TWI and stayed in an abusive marriage. I would never have realized the potential within me.
For those of you who don't like the way Paw or the Moderators run this place, there is a simple solution. Don't let the door hit you in the behind on the way out.
The man gives of his time and money and all he has asked in return is that we disagree respectfully. That we behave as if we are adults when we post on the forums.
As for editing posts - the solution is very simple. Step back, take a deep breath and re-read what you wrote BEFORE you hit the "Add Reply" button. In the real world, once you have spoken you cannot go back and delete what you said. Live with it or get over it or just don't post.
As I frequently tell my children, there are rules we must follow in life, even as adults. They may not always seem to us to be fair, but we must follow them anyway. Why would you think the forums would be different? Why would you think that just because you can hide behind a screen name that it is okay to be as rude and beligerant as you want?
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Dot Matrix
TWI caught me on the hamster wheel of circular thinking…
How could a great class come from a bad man?
This had me spinning and undelivered for YEARS. I was afraid to go to church, to think, I loved God but (upon the removing of layers of wrong teaching - I saw) I truly was afraid I was going to be a greasespot by midnight. I had dreams of “vein popping Craig” and of a not very well endowed Weirwille. But most of my nightmares were about me in “real life” being unable to move forward.
Jesus says:
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." - Matthew 11:28-30
I knew this in my head. My heart somewhere carried the messages of LCM and VPW that “somehow I left God and my life would befell many hardships”. Really their words were as curses and "if believed" would manifest as stated. This enabled fear to have a foot hold.
The ministry, and do not doubt it is a ministry, of Pawtucket here at Greasespot and the site of John Juedes have enabled me to break free of the “curses” spoken over us by TWI to their congregation.
Pawtucket and John Juedes have suffered many brutal verbal attacks (IMO) as a result of their mission/calling/direction/kindness to try and help people get out of a corn field cult.
There are those that cry “I love you, Paw.” Or “Thank God for John” or even how grateful they were to people such as “Ralph” but act as a venomous snake slithering through the grasses to bite the ankle of people actually doing something to help the hurting.... shame on you.
I am a firm believer in actions speaking louder than words. You cannot love a man then seek to destroy him with the knife in your right hand while feeding him candy in your left. The biggest insult I see is to then call their site a “cult” which is the complete 180 degree turn from the truth, or say to a crusader of truth – “you should have done more…” While their cigarette/cigar ash hangs precariously over their 9th martini. Which to me means those carrying those accusations are housing “devils” themselves. (ill intentions for those who do not believe in spirits)
Yet, John Juedes stayed open, Pawtucket continued, and even Ralph offered his helping hand when led. But some whinny, crying, destructive entities can rise up from their kitchen table and in their ministry of “one” decide to object to any and all things that bother them, while adding nothing to humanity or goodness, while offering no safe haven to the lost – this is ludicrous. And yet we give (((hugs))) and “I love you’s" because we are too inept to figure out how to really help these idiotic, attacking, sniping people. But Paw? He who suffers most of the attacks? He continues forward. That folks, to me, is amazing.
So, to all the people who have flame broiled Pawtucket, let me ask you what good have you done here? In your life? What lamp have YOU offered to the lost in the night?
“What good are you?”
When you snarl at the hand offering you food? Or you reject the life raft sent to you as you are tossed at sea? Perhaps, your only identity comes from being able to SNAP and try and destroy the “goodness” of people like Paw because you folks KNOW in reality you were being led to get off your own lazy azz and do something to make the world a better place but refused to do so… So, in your own guilt, you folks (those this is applicable to) seek to destroy a person who did what he was suppose to do because you were too weak to do anything but complain about him. This destruction gave you "power" – my question is – who ya working” for?
I do not think GS has jumped the shark. But I do think Paw is entitled to have a life. (Change your phone number Paw.)
And I do think those who have enamored his destruction, bashed his attempts and sabotaged him, need to look in the mirror. What drives this behavior?
“Is this written to me?” Well, if the shoe fits wear it. If not, then it is not your shoe.
And Paw if and when I have been someone who has disrupted your life - please forgive me. I am truly sorry.
edited for punctuation
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waysider
I feel the same way.
---------------------------------------------
Something else I've thought about:
Ever notice how lots of people who come here haven't had much previous on-line experience?
I know I surely hadn't.
Yet, because of the nature of the site's purpose, people reach out and help each other to navigate and search and find answers. You don't find that on many other sites where the order of the day seems to be "every man for himself". GSC is more than just a web site. It's a community.
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satori001
A better question might be, does Greasespot "work?"
Abigail's post might help.
If Pawtucket wants a clear answer to his question, he should just print it out, and frame it. It's the only one that matters. It exemplifies Greasespot as a platform for an ex-TWI participant to realize growth, true independence, and self-sufficiency.
Did Greasespot transform Abigail's life? No, not at all. Abigail did that. She learned what she needed to know about a bad choice (TWI). In discussions with others here, she found new interests and discovered hidden talents. She then made her own choices. She worked, and she worked hard, and achieved her own success.
Greasespot was only a passive environment, Pawtucket was the facilitator, nothing more. But that made all the difference, right? It was enough. It should be enough. It MUST be enough. That's all there is, folks. Any further expectation is your personal delusion, projected upon Greasespot.
To make any more of Greasespot then what it is, a provocative discussion board, and controversial information source, is to make much less of it. By some of the testimonials here, it's become a dysfunctional fantasy replacing that of The Way International, and -some of you- making Pawtucket into some kind of improvised Moses. (Remember, Moses didn't like being Moses at times either, for familiar reasons.)
If you want information about Wierwille's cult, come to Greasespot. If you want to socialize with others who share TWI's experience, come to Greasespot. If you want your life to change, come to Greasespot, but realize you still must look within, make your own choices, and act. That's the only way it will happen.
Some people will never be content until they're truly miserable. Maybe that's you. Sorry but Greasespot won't save you. Either choose to grow up, OR, if you're really committed to your fantasy, go back to TWI. (Professional help is a healthier third option, by the way.)
If you do go back to Way World, it's probably like going back to sleep, but for the rest of your life. Sweet dreams, send my regards to Rosalie, but you will never be satisfied here.
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leafytwiglet
Nicely put Satorie...
Well I am a new person here at GSC so maybe what I say does have some merit since I am new for me GSC is the sum of all its' parts.
I have found good information here about what "The Way International " really was. Some of it i already knew or suspected but a lot of it I didn't.
It is a place to find links to more information if you should so desire.. a place to connect with old friends and or make new friends
It is a place to get information on other sources for healing or even more information on TWI
Posters on here for the most part are friendly and helpful... have a question and they jump in and help.
What have I gleaned from GSC
well to date I have found peace with our decision to leave The Way.. Most of you know this but some don't My Husband and I left early on in TWI before VPW died before the Craig Fiasco.
My husband was Corps but was struggling with his perceived inability to live up to the ideals of Corps. We left so he could survive. We thought we were some how abandoning God and it was a difficult decision and a shaky 5 days of turmoil in our hearts.
The questions about was it the right thing or the wrong thing have plagued me for years
as did some of the teachings... which have kept me from going to church or finding the right group of people to spend my time with.
For me finding GSC has given me knowledge, and with that knowledge comes peace.
I am still working my way through the preponderance of information.
on here but I will make it through.
I have learned a lot about some very brave people on here, and have met some wonderful folks.
For me GSC has not "Jumped the shark" For me it was a life line and a welcome fount of information.
The social aspect of it is wonderful too because some of the people I have met have added theri own wiew of the way and given information on what they saw. giving a more fuller understanding of what I left. And been patient with me as I see VPW for who he really was.
So for very selfish reasons I say GSC is still viable.
Should it close down that is PAws choice.
I myself could set up a forum in like five minutes flat as could anyone else who is even a little in the computer know.. but I hope it doesn't happen like that.
a lot of work has gone into this site and it would be a shame to see it morph into something less than what it is.
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Dot Matrix
There are many ministries and the Moses ministry is one of them. If one chooses to equate what Pawtucket has done to that of Moses it would be their own inability to see beyond the hemmed in definitions given to certain “ministries” or to make smaller the vastness of God’s ubiquitous nature --being able to provide for the hurting-- by those willing to open their arms in many aspects of “ministry.” So, in agreement (written in my own understanding) with Satori if one sees Paw as Moses --- they need to eventually look up and see God.
I once led people across a rushing stream but I did not see my mission as “Moses like”. It was a stream. The only thing in common was the water and the need to cross it.
Pawtucket, John Juedes and many others which I believe include Raf, Socks and Evan have also crossed a swollen stream and that which was similar to Moses was “water”. I do not believe Moses is to be defined by this little board here called Greasespot, but nor do I believe the enormity of which God provided via Paw’s willingness to step forward should be minimized either. Simply different.
I, for one, now know the difference between GOD and looking for a person to be GOD to me. And earlier in the thread someone called those who said good things about Ralph “worshipers”. Nice try.
Just as I refer to Pawtucket as having a ministry I do not see him as the “way” through the swollen waters. But I do see him as ONE of us who stood up and DID something while a majority of people only "squeak up" with their meanness to try and hurt people who actually tried to do something… I see him as someone who did not sit down on the swollen banks and complain there is no way across it – but as one who did something to build a bridge. Ultimately it is the requirement of the person who WANTS to get from one point to the other to GET UP and walk across it. I agree with Abigail and Satori in that respect, which is what I gathered by their posts. But I do not agree in that he is a facilitator nothing more. He has given much more than that – and that may be the problem. Maybe he needs to back-up and let the "season change" from being a “ministry” to being a thick-skinned facilitator and let God work through others.
Perhaps, it is as simple as Paw turning off his phone, delegating responsibility, and those that want to be vulgar and cry like babies, at any and all chastisement, can go to the "other" site.
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Abigail
IMO, your input is far more important than the opinions of those of us who have been here forever. Some of us have forgotten what it is like to find this place for the first time. Many of us no longer need to "process out," we've done that, even if we haven't all moved forward with our lives.
The input of "fresh eyes" is vital, I believe.
And there, Paw, is perhaps the real answer you were looking for. To the people who are new here, the cafe is still viable and needed.
Perhaps the real problem is that some of us old-timers need to move out and on and start functioning in the real world, instead of harassing other people on the internet when things don't go their way.
That said, I also believe you are not obligated to keep the forums open. You have given your life blood to this place and it is reasonable to say "enough is enough."
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Combination
Modern Chat is not any kind of Anti GSC or anti PawT board.
It is merely a posting board, largely populated by ex JWs, where a number of ex TWI posters also post.
They are all very welcome and their input deeply appreciated.
I commented today that, looking thru the entirity of content in the Modern Chat TWI room, there may be as many as 10 threads which reference matters pertaining to the administrative decisions of this GSC board.
Well that is fair discussion in my view. If Modern Chats 12 or 15 ex TWI posters wish to criticize admin here, they are free to do so. If those posters wish to praise admin here, they are free to do so. If they wish to reference discussions here and cut paste comments, they are free to do so.
Fact is, they are free to discuss anything they so desire, if they wish to do so.
Many thanks- Refiners Fire. Modern Chat admin.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I. for one, no longer need deliverance from TWI (though, since I attend a spinoff of a spinoff, some might disagree). What I get most from GS is the interaction with so many folks here. Some, I've had the pleasure of meeting in person (Dooj, Tom Strange, Paw, Ex10, DWBH, and others); others, I may never meet but consider kindred spirits (Raf, WordWolf, socks, excathedra, Sudo, nowI see, and others); some, I don't know if I'd slug or have a beer with if we actually met (well, Rocky is the only one presently in this category).
I'd really hate to see GS go; but, obviously, Paw's need for peace in his own life are more important than my need for cyber-buddies. But if the site (or at least the forums) can be handed off to another, I'd like to have it stick around.
FWIW. (See, I never knew about all these abbreviations before GS!)
George
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satori001
Mostly, I just don't do GS much any more. (Only partly because of the edit thing.)
--
"Get over it?" There's a peculiar choice of words.
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Abigail
Yeah, well, you can't please all of the people even some of the time. Sometimes you just have to put your big girl or big boy panties on and deal with things you don't like - or set a boundary and walk away. That is just life.
I'm not asking anyone to "get over" being raped, abused, manipulated, etc. I'm simply suggesting people take responsibility for their own lives. Take responsibility for the words you post. Take responsibility for deciding to hit the "reply" button.
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satori001
Oh stop.
Have you never written something that looked right and a day later thought of a better word, or example, or whatever? Well I do. All the time.
I've never deleted a post because I was covering up for anything. I've only ever changed a post to make the statement stronger or clearer. But please remind me, who have I ever backed down from Abigail? (Boring me to death doesn't count.) When would I ever "cover my..." whatever? Greasespot was never that much fun unless there was a good argument going, all comers welcome, and when the wet-nurses started moderating the "Tics" forum, I was done.
Thanks for the lecture, by the way. Cut and paste job? Sounds well-rehearsed.
There's another side to this. I can "imagine" that some people who have deleted posts (when it was still possible, beyond the current time limit) were probably horrified by the ugliness of what they read in response to something deeply personal and regrettably confessional, and I sympathize with them, not for myself. Or maybe they revealed something confidential or hurtful in a weak or candid emotional moment and they wanted to limit the damage. In all cases, it's quite likely they over-estimated the intelligence and sensitivity of the respondents at Greasespot with an ill-advised post.
It is cruel, in that circumstance, to prevent the person from modifying or deleting their words. And it disgusts me that they might have to go crawling to some anonymous moderator to request the official favor of editing or removing their own words, and possibly be turned down by some lightweight rule enforcer, who is without a legitimate clue to what's going on with that person, and may well have a personal axe to grind behind their anonymous pseudonym. Feels so much like how The Way handled people, arbitrary and distant.
So the first "mod's" denial means what, another appeal, and another, and ultimately a 3am call to Pawtucket perhaps to beg? It's degrading. It's demeaning. It's humiliating. And how some of the nastier ones here seem to live for this @#$. GS is their little soap opera, and the human lives on display their afternoon's entertainment. Their only purpose was so they might sit back and enjoy the show, watching the so-called policy torment the poster while they could lift their dirty hands and say "not me, I'm over here... just, um, taking it all in."
It's all hypothetical, of course. It's probably a great policy after all.
By the way, dealing with trolls are something else entirely, and moderators are more than equipped to deal with them already.
I do "get over" the truly small stuff, Abigail. But so often here, the devil is in the details. There is more to this than you appear to have time to consider. Doesn't matter. Nothing will change, will it?
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GarthP2000
Editorial control my a**!
There is a solution to your 'dilemna' in this respect. It's called, ... make another post, expanding upon what you posted earlier.
Really? Well, Abigail don't need no 'steenkin' cut and paste job. She's quite well spoken without any assistance from you, thank you very much.
Ahh yes, I remember that day now. You had one apparently award winning firey zinger thrown my way after one of my posts which apparently got your panties in a bunch (said response that I didn't get to see unfortunately), and when I came back to read it, it was *POOF*, gone (along with my post it responded to, I think). As I remember, you were _not_ happy about that. ... Ahh well. ((shrugs))
... all this of which has to do with _any_ of your posts, ... how? :huh:
You called Paw at 3 AM in the morning? Over some stupid post that you forgot to place 'editorial control' before you hit Send? :o
So its kinda like being in some real life conversation where you speak before you think. Too bad you have absolutely NO editorial control over that. Oh by the way, (since I can _bet_ that you'd come back with some 'degrading, demeaning' ;) crack back at me in this context, might as well deflate this balloon of yours now) I, too, have undergone this very kind of 'Ooopsie!' moment in said social life a time or three.
Everyone has. Well at least with me, I deal with learning from said 'Oopsie!' moment, take responsibility for it, learn from it, and move on; and NOT go thru a serious denial about the 'Ooopsie!' moment (via 'editorial control' of course ;) ), and expect the rest of the world to act like it never happened. ...
Oh well, like I said, that's life. We learn from it and then we move on. Life isn't a wet-nurse in that situation either.
Actually, I think Abigail has considered her position quite thoroughly. Its just you don't particularly care for it.
((starts up the sad violin dirge, again))
Oh by the way. I take full responsibility for previous post. And have not altered it in any way.
Ie., I'm Garth P. and I approve of this message. ;)
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GarthP2000
Crap! That last part "Oh by the way. I take full responsibility for previous post. And have not altered it in any way." I posted as a separate post, but it came on too soon, and was thus combined to the previous message.
So I'm waiting a few minutes before I post this.
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satori001
There is never an adequate response to Garth, except that old, reliable, tried and true, vicious "personal attack." One reason GS has long since "moonwalked the mahi mahi," is because such "attacks" are no longer tolerated, despite being sorely, desperately needed, as Garth has so ably demonstrated just now.
Consider yourself deeply insulted Garth. Slice, dice. Slice, dice. You know the routine.
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WordWolf
I imagine this will place me on the "he only makes personal attacks" list
(supposing I'm not already there), but I exercise my editorial rights
BEFORE I HIT SEND.
Nearly all changes I make after posting are COSMETIC.
(I don't change the words, just punctuation, brackets, bolding, etc.)
I've exercised the right to NOT post, as well.
Sometimes, looking over a post, the best thing to do is NOT hit "send."
That way, I save myself the trouble of trying to delete it later.
Have my posts ever been affected by moderation after that?
Yes.
Have I agreed with the moderation?
Sometimes.
And the rest of the time?
I give the staff the benefit of the doubt. I can see their position,
disagree, see how they got there, and let it go.
Then I move on with my posting and with my life.
It also looks to me as though Abigail and Garth have used the same
or similar approaches to keep from personalizing what's the rather
everyday task of moderating a messageboard. (I may be wrong, but
it certainly appears that way to me.) It also appears to me that not
everyone is prepared to do that.
(Phoning the admin over editing of a post? Really?
In the middle of the night?
Isn't that like using a hammer to kill a flea?)
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GarthP2000
Now let me get this straight (Garth says in what (according to you-know-who) must be a 'personal attack' ... yeah, whatevah):
The _only_ adequate and valid response you can give my (supposedly, again, according to you-know-who) seriously flawed logic in my posts, is the 'vicious "personal attack."' (which of course, is no longer tolerated on said board, and thus sending us all 'moonwalking the mahi mahi').
Hhmmm, ... so why not instead demonstrate the superiority of your logic by clearly pointing out the hideously obvious (to you anyway) flaws in what I say (since I'm supposedly blind as the proverbial bat
), where at least others can see and learn from your solid wisdom (since I'm so far gone, unable/unwilling to 'be saved').
Why is that alternative not better than the (supposedly and 'sorely needed') vicious attack that you think is the only answer here?
And looks like my affliction is apparently affecting Abigail and Wordwolf here as well. ... My, my, my.
Or it could be where your rendering of this situation just isn't taking with us 'poor, inferior schmucks' here at the Mahi Mahi. ... Maybe, for good reason.
... Maybe, ... just maybe, ... we might even see something that you do not.
N-a-a-h-h! ... Can't be.
P.S., Just in case it isn't obvious to _some_ here ((wink wink)) ;), the above is dripping with sarcasm. ... Just wanted to be clear.
P.P.S., Even tho' I'm posting this at around 3AM in the morning, _please_ don't call Paw at this time and beg about this post.
I mean, really. ... Really! <_<
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bulwinkl
Mr Tuckett,
I don't refer to you as Paw cause I do not know you. We might have or might have not met. I think the choice is your's and only your's. I will survive no matter what you do. Others may survive or not. You cannot save every forlorn cat/dog that comes you way. aas much as you want to, I've not said anything up until this point because bottom line if you cannot or desire not to continue this site it's your decison. do I want to see it go away?? no not really ,. but if the cost to you personally is too much I rather it go away, Those that seek will be filled , if they aren't well life was never said to be fair I applaud your effort but don't be a matyr for Jesus, Ex-Twi, or most of the other bullsh|t.
That's my $.02 give or take a couple of dollars due to inflation..
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Abigail
That is a rather telling statement, Satori. All the time? Do you not ever learn from your mistakes? Do you have an impulse control problem that prevents you from walking away for a bit and then re-reading what you wrote before you hit the send button?
Of course I have written things I have regretted. In fact, I deleted nearly every post in "My Story" back in the day when such things could be done. I also learned from my mistakes and continue to learn from them. I've taken responsibility for my words and when I've had to, I've come back and explained myself better or sent a PM to an offended party to hash things out.
I didn't realize the purpose of Greasespot was to entertain you.
And, BTW, a good truly good debate, IMO, is one that doesn't require personal attacks, but one that has well presented arguments from all sides.
I'm sure this can, has, and still does occur on occassion. I too have sympathy for those new people who occassionally make this mistake. But, funny thing is, I'm betting it is often the same handful of people who make the same "mistake" over and over and over again and most of them have been around the cafe for years and years now. So, again, when will they learn? when will they grow up and take some responsibility for their own choices??
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markomalley
For what it's worth, I appreciate what this site has been and what it has done for a lot of people. In my case, it finished doing what Waydale started: it answered ALL of my questions in regards to "what happened," it confirmed a lot of suspicions that prompted my quiet departure, and it removed a lot of illusions that I had about the "good old days."
For making the forum available, you have my gratitude. I am likewise in debt to all of those who provided the inputs to the forum.
As far as the poll is concerned, I didn't select any of the choices, as I didn't see that any of them adequately expressed my feelings about the place.
There is a huge library of information available through perusing this forum, particularly the archives and the "About the Way" section. Unfortunately, a lot of that information is not indexed and cross-referenced. A lot of the most valuable nuggets of information may not be in the original post of a thread -- they may appear in posts #82 and #173 out of 312 posts in a given thread. Thus, those nuggets might not be immediately accessible to n00bs who would search for them. If the forums transitioned to a read-only state, old timers here would not be able to answer the questions posed by those n00bs. And, FWIW, I really didn't have all of my questions answered until I had posted here for a couple of years. I didn't even know what some of the questions were when I first started posting here.
This is also a social club of sorts. There are those who post a lot on various and sundry topics that have nothing to do with helping answer TWI questions. There are those who rarely post and chat a lot. But the vast majority of us keep our eyes on the "About the Way" section and jump in when there is something to contribute. Of course, there is contentiousness no matter where you go (not only on this board, but anyplace on the 'Net).
Having said that, here is something to consider: allowing the contentiousness actually increases the credibility of the information posted here. If contentious and hurtful posts were deleted rather than refuted in the open, only one side of the story would be presented...as it stands, many of the arguments that a lurker might hear from the TWI (or splinter) side of the story are right here and are knocked down. A TWIt might hear "the girls asked for it" off line from the TWI leadership. But when that accusation is levied against a girl who was repeatedly raped on this site and that girl (plus 10-15 others) jump down the throat of the person making the claim, it sort-of removes any credibility of the "asked for it" claim. Excessive thread editing and excessive banning of posters would remove that strength.
Based upon what I've read on this thread, it's obvious that there is a lot of off-line stuff (e-mails, PMs, etc.) that I don't know and don't need to know. Frankly, if it's just e-mails/PMs, my advice is that there is a "delete" button on any e-mail client or web-based application. If it's something more serious than that (be it harassing phone calls, postal mail, stalking, credible physical threats, etc.), then that's another situation entirely. It is not my place to judge one way or the other, as I do not have anywhere close to all of the facts.
Bottom line, though, is that this site is your private property. Nobody, with the exception of you, has the right to be here. Nobody has the right to ask you to dedicate any more of your time than what you have done in the past. If you shut it down today, I don't think anybody who's been around for any length of time would have any call to criticize you for that decision.
But one thing: there are always n00bs joining this site. Always. That tells me that it still serves a purpose (whether or not that is the mark of viability is another issue altogether).
Just one suggestion: if the majority of your woes (outside of acting as an umpire for online arguments) are from e-mail/ PM threats, you might want to consider enlisting a couple of trusted, but relatively emotionally detached, people to screen your PM box and pawtucket@greasespotcafe.com e-mail box for harassing e-mails. Sort of like a secretary does for an executive: delete the spam, deal with the small stuff, and only pass on the important stuff for the executive to handle.
Regardless of your decision, you're in my prayers.
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satori001
For the record WW, I have never called Pawtucket or anyone else regarding Greasespot at 3am, or at any time. If I've ever emailed Pawtucket, and I don't remember, I could count the times on one hand.
Somebody on this thread, probably Shellon, mentioned 3am calls, and I imagined that someone desperate enough to remove or change their post might resort to that.
And yes, much of my editing is cosmetic, but since I enjoy the process of writing, I take advantage of the opportunity to edit when it's there, to improve, clarify, distill... If I were a better writer, maybe I would get it right the first time, like everyone else here does.
--
Abigail,
As for the grow up and get over it mantra we love to chant here, that doesn't work for everyone affected by TWI. Some of us once joined the cult because it seemed like a great way to cut through the BS to a much improved spiritual life.
But others joined because life had already dealt them very badly. Those people found out that TWI was a fraud and they were no better off than the very bad situation that brought them in the first place, seeking real help. Some of them are here. And what do they hear? "Grow up." "Get over it." As if TWI were the worst of their troubles, and not a metaphor for their own lives.
If we think just for a moment, it's easy to realize these individuals may bear the crosses of a lifetime's worth of abuse, neglect, or pain. TWI is just the most recent chapter. And now Greasespot, for them, might become the icing on the cake, to satisfy somebody's sense of what? Propriety? Decency and order? Right.
Nice.
Yeah, we should all grow up.
--
I mentioned earlier that the hypothetical poster might over-estimate the intelligence and sensitivity of respondents here. Garth's lack of concern or comprehension is an excellent case in point. Thank you Garth. Other than crapping up a perfectly good thread with his irrepressible and inane posing, and with huge, irrelevant posts, he doesn't really bother me. And now we can "ignore" whoever we want. I do make use of that now, and it's great! But Garth often leads the charge for a whole tribe of his kind of poster, and those other hypothetical posters will be (have been, no doubt) drowned out or shouted down, again and again.
I dunno. I guess he likes telling himself that he stood up to me. Well done, Garth. Well done. Have a banana. Go find Tarzan.
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GeorgeStGeorge
The subject of this thread (and poll) is whether or not GS has "jumped the shark." All this discussion about editing posts or the inability to do so does not seem germane to me. If satori believes that GS is off-mission because he can no longer edit posts after a day, that's his opinion, and he can vote that way. I would tend to disagree; to me, that seems a bit trivial. On the other hand, if Paw decided to turn this into a site for a multi-level marketing business and discontinued it as an information source/meeting place for TWI "outies" (and "innies"), I would consider THAT "jumping the shark." As long as there are people who can be helped by this site, I think it should remain.
George
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Abigail
Satori, I want to preface this by stating I have a great deal of respect for you. Your posts here, in particular, helped me in ways above and beyond the posts of most others back in my early days at the cafe. But in this instance, I must respectfully disagree with you.
Well I don't know about everyone else, but I certainly don't get it right the first time, the second time, and often even the third time. I gave up worrying about being perfect quite some time ago. I often leave behind typos, grammatical mistakes and misspelled words. Oh well, <shrug> I have better ways to spend my time than trying to make my posts perfect.
I have even less time for those (who are also imperfect, btw) who would criticize me harshly for being imperfect.
Again, I am not asking and have never asked anyone to grow up and get over it when it comes to their experience with TWI or any type of abuse. However, I do think we can and NEED to take responsibility for our actions and choices, including the words we choose to post here. Indeed, I think failing to accept such responsibility is what made it so easy for us to just "follow the leader" while in TWI.
Yeah, I do get that Satori. I am not unfamiliar, having experienced such things myself, long before I ever came across the likes of TWI. Perhaps through some twist of fate I was blessed either genetically or environmentally with the inner strength to eventually face my demons and move forward with my life. Or perhaps, through some twist of fate I was forced to find the inner strength to do so, when I was no longer able to find people who would enable my weaknesses in those areas. (which isn't to say I am perfect or have no weaknesses now).
In any event, I will again for the third time reiterate: I am not asking and have never asked anyone to grow up and get over it when it comes to their experience with TWI or any type of abuse.
I have great empathy for those who are new here, in particular. I also am fully persuaded that Paw and the moderators do as well. I would even go so far as to bet Paw wouldn't start a thread like this over getting phone calls at 3 a.m. from someone who was new here and screwed up in a post.
I would, however, bet that Paw might start a thread like this over getting phone calls at 3 a.m. from the same 3 or 4 people over and over and over again, people who have been here for 8, 9, or more years. IMO, continuing to pat these people on the head and fix their mistakes for them is simply enabling them and isn't truly helping them.
I'd even take it a step further and suggest that if, after 8, 9 or more years here you are still feeling incapable of coping because of your experiences with TWI or any other form of abuse - then maybe one ought to consider professional help. This place provides information and an opportunity to vent and exchange experiences, ideas and opinions, but it is not a replacement for professional counseling if that is what one needs.
As you said yourself, this place is a passive place. It is a place to receive information, perhaps vent, debate, give and receive empathy. But overall, at some point in time one has to become active in their own healing and recovery.
While I do believe there is some form of "group therapy" that can and at times does take place here, I don't believe we have any professionals acting in a professional capacity here. Some people simply may need to seek professional help to move them along their journey of healing.
And just maybe the problem here isn't Paw or the moderators and isn't the rules or how they are enforced. Perhaps the problem here is that some of us old-timers simply need to move on and make room for the newcomers. You, me, Dot, Sushi, WW, ExC, Garth, Oakspear, Rocky, Groucho - man the list could go on and on and on. We've been here since the beginning - many are from WayDale days. Perhaps we need to look within ourselves and ask "are we contributing to the solution or are we part of the problem?" Perhaps we need to ask "what am I getting out of this place anymore?" "Is this just a replacement for a social life for me or am I here because I truly want to help those who are still processing out of TWI?"
I am not suggesting the people I have named must leave and never post here again. I am simply suggesting we look within ourselves and ask ourselves what it is we are contributing to this place and what it is we are getting out of it.
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Abigail
P.S. See, Satori, I am fully persuaded we can have a respectful, spirited, and enjoyable debate on this topic without stooping to personal attacks or violating rules. We can do that (or at least I happen to believe we can) because I also believe you and I respect each other.
I have learned (thanks to my experience here at the cafe) that debating with someone who I do not respect and/or who does not respect me is ultimately a waste of my time. Not saying I don't still do it on occassion for various reasons, but I sure don't do it very often anymore. Life is too short to waste it arguing with people I don't even like. Once those minutes are gone they cannot be regained. I'd rather spend them with friends and family.
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