I have serious doubts that any legal arguement could be made as to a slave or slavery issue.
It would be very difficult to prove that TWI actually or in fact did force anyone into their sphere of influence, especially under threating conditions. That would have to be a starting premise.
I was never a slave of TWI, even though I stayed with them as long as I did. I left the group on my own and was not pursued by them to return.
TWI is guilty of many things, but they are not guilty of slavery. Just my opinion
Indentured servitude is still alive and well in this country (USA). Some folks call it, "Contract Slavery".
The best and most currently active form of it that I can think of is our Enlisted Military. Officers are appointed by the Secretary of the department of the Navy, Army, or Air Force, and can resign their commission at any time.
Enlisted men, however have to sign a contract making themselves the property of the United States Government for the time period spelled out in the contract. They cannot resign, but must wait until their contracted time has expired. In return, the US government feeds, houses, clothes, and pays their Soldiers and Sailors.
If you don't think Enlisted men being Government Property is true, just ask any enlisted man in any US service if you can be court martialed for getting sun burned, or a self inflicted wound. The charge would be "destruction of Government Property".
Now I'm no lawyer (and if this is legal or not in Ohio, I don't know), but it is my understanding that if you volunteer to work for some person or organization without a written contract, it could be construed as an indentured servitude contract as long as the person or organization feeds, clothes, and houses you (they don't have to pay you in many states) for the specified period of time. They can also offer to pay you in lieu of feeding, clothing, and/or housing you. These days, however, they must pay you a minimum wage.
In some states, this can also happen on what they call an "at will" basis. I understand that to mean that as long as the person or organization, and yourself, are willing to work under your agreed conditions, you are allowed to do so. If the person or organization decides to let you go, you must go. Likewise, if you decide to quit, they must let you quit.
Many companies and corporations practiced some form of indentured servitude until the Unions came along. In Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Kentucky, mining companies horribly abused this system, which caused the miner's unions to be formed.
What many of the mining companies did was allow a man to work for the mine, on an "at will" basis. They would "give" him a company house, but they would only pay him in "scrip". Several of these companies would also require rent be paid out of the scrip for the company house. Scrip was only good at the "Company Store". It was not accepted anywhere else.
Miners would then buy their necessary items at greatly inflated prices from the company store, often running up massive debts to the company. Needless to say, if a miner wanted to quit, he was forced to pay the debt - in real money - before he was allowed to take his family and leave. This is how the "at will" basis was turned into literal slavery (sound familliar yet?).
Not all mining companies abused their people like this. Some of them treated their employees very well, but because of the ones that didn't, West Virginia, and Kentucky now have laws requiring companies and corporations to pay their employees in real money (Gold, Silver, or US Currency). If they get caught doing otherwise, they can get into big trouble.
OK. So it would probably never hold up in court. I still think we came darn close to working (and thinking) like slaves in residence. Even the sexual incidents seem like abuses that slaves have faced traditionally. Many TWI followers still fall into the category of people who have "lost all power of resistance". My back shows no scars from being whipped, but my mind does.
quote:It would be very difficult to prove that TWI actually or in fact did force anyone into their sphere of influence, especially under threating conditions. That would have to be a starting premise.
I agree fully.
The key element is that the possible various forms of slavery were always voluntary.
I don't think Way workers were slaves - that would insult those who really were.
It is true that people were expected to put in long,long hours for no money and sleep was precious. But no one was forced to remain or was sold as property to TWI. If someone became
a "yes" man or woman then thats what happened. Maybe they thought it was the thing to do - but
they still could have walked at anytime.
I do recall some people complaining
to the local branch leader about his
practice of cramming supporting classes (Dealing With The Adversary, Renewed Mind, CFS, etc) into killer schedules like Thu nite, Fri nite , all day Sat and Sun. He claimed that
he had to do it to accomodate "out of town
guests" but when you looked around the room
you didn't see anyone from out of town. Later
I learned that they did that in every locale.
I don't recall learning much in any of those
classes because of the ridiculous pace they
set. I nodded off alot during all of them and
so did many others. Even the class leader was
caught napping. This is just part of the MO of TWI and other cults also. Keep people tired and
hungry. TWI lifestyle was not caculated to make you comfortable thats for sure.
we had the out of town thing told to us too, but half the time the out of towners weren't there. And, I do recall at some leaders meeting we were told a line of XXXX about how we had to "consume" the bible with short periods inbetween to keep the devil out of our hair while learning the new material.........give me a break... DWA/DTA....after 15 times....its all a murky blurr anyhow.
quote:ok the bus is traveling along at a comfortably fast steady speed. it's dark outside and silent, the middle of the night
bus driver
wierwille
me
me all alone and scared
a few beers and total total zonker land
some old man talking about god and his wanker
slavery
I assume you told VPW not to touch you and he went ahead and did it anyway?
If that's the case, then you were his sex slave for a nite.
Perhaps I shouldn't have said "always"; I'm sure there were a couple of exceptions.
I would also put children in that group; those who grew up in TWI and were forced to do certain things because of their parents, had no choice in the matter either...
Oldies Guy ... I don't know how old you are, but do you remember that song called "Hotel California"? There's a line in the song that goes like this: "You can check out anytime you want, but you can never leave".
Several times I've read your comments that nobody was forced to stay in TWI ... We decided to stay ... We should accept the consequences ... It was our own choice ... And so forth.
Speaking as a die-hard who got kicked out of Family Corps more than once, let me tell you about your notion that "The door was always open".
To go into residence, you must be debt-free. For most of us, that meant getting rid of everything we owned - our home, our furniture, our pots and pans, you name it. We entered Corps with nothing but the required items on the "What to bring" list. The first time we got kicked out, we found refuge at a state park cabin. (The park was closed for the season). Three kids, a bunch of books, an old car, and our 100% wool mittens. We had no jobs, no friends to help us, and about one week's worth of survival money. Scarey business. At the end of the week, LCM confronted the FC Coordinator for dismissing us, so we were allowed back in. We were told to "Obey, and keep our mouths shut".
After that, we were motivated to obey NOT because we were devoted believers (like when we first got involved with TWI), but because being homeless sucks. It also feels pretty horrible to believe that you have been rejected by God, and it's really frightening to be without friends or family.
The second time we got kicked out, they told us to go to Wichita. We are from Wyoming. Wichita is an alien planet to us. Again, no money, no jobs, no nothing. But we took our kids and drove to Kansas. We got a cheap apartment, promising to pay at the end of a month. We found mattresses in an alley and brought them home to sleep on. We found food in dumpsters, and cooked it using our expensive L.E.A.D. eqipment. Ah yes, the abundant life. I'm talking about a professional couple, college grads, in their 40's, with two kids on the honor roll -- living destitude. See how EASY it was to just walk through that "open door" you refer to?
Later we came across many friends who experienced similar nightmares. One family told us they were followed out of state by Way leadership, and had to travel backroads at night to finally evade them.
Slavery? Maybe not. Maybe so. But Oldies, please reconsider that TWI captives can "check out any time you want". It's hard.
Most of what I've posted here has to do with material consequences. The emotional impact is another level. The song says "You can never leave". That pertains to the emotional stuff. -Pat
I think the in-rez Corps were subjected to slave-like conditions moreso than the people in the local fellowships were.
Trees were planted, ditches were dug, buildings were cleaned, toilets were scrubbed... there was painting and sewing and raking and cooking and a multitude of blue and white collar work going on in Emporia, Rome City and HQ's for years - and the people doing the work were being paid NOTHING to do it.
I remember when TWI sold Emporia - John & I talked about how much "slave labor" was put into the place. The Sickth Corps was the first large Corps to be in rez there - and we worked our butts just getting the place livable.
We got $30 a month in "allowance" - room, board and teachings... that was it.
I'm not saying that people in the local areas weren't and aren't still in bondage to TWI doctrines and practices. But I think the in-rez Corps were treated more like slaves right from the get-go. Because of the physical obedience to the work program, it was easier to keep us in the same kind of bondage mentally.
$30 a month. Hope, you were in the Sixth Corps. Family Corps numbers were four years behind regular corps. So at the same time you were in residence, the Family Corps was "Family 2". We were in Family 20, eighteen years later. Guess how much money we made per month. $30. That was for each adult, and $10 for each kid. For the few weeks we were in Family 24, the wages were still the same. Geeeeez. -Pat
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firebee
I have serious doubts that any legal arguement could be made as to a slave or slavery issue.
It would be very difficult to prove that TWI actually or in fact did force anyone into their sphere of influence, especially under threating conditions. That would have to be a starting premise.
I was never a slave of TWI, even though I stayed with them as long as I did. I left the group on my own and was not pursued by them to return.
TWI is guilty of many things, but they are not guilty of slavery. Just my opinion
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Technobyte
Indentured servitude is still alive and well in this country (USA). Some folks call it, "Contract Slavery".
The best and most currently active form of it that I can think of is our Enlisted Military. Officers are appointed by the Secretary of the department of the Navy, Army, or Air Force, and can resign their commission at any time.
Enlisted men, however have to sign a contract making themselves the property of the United States Government for the time period spelled out in the contract. They cannot resign, but must wait until their contracted time has expired. In return, the US government feeds, houses, clothes, and pays their Soldiers and Sailors.
If you don't think Enlisted men being Government Property is true, just ask any enlisted man in any US service if you can be court martialed for getting sun burned, or a self inflicted wound. The charge would be "destruction of Government Property".
Now I'm no lawyer (and if this is legal or not in Ohio, I don't know), but it is my understanding that if you volunteer to work for some person or organization without a written contract, it could be construed as an indentured servitude contract as long as the person or organization feeds, clothes, and houses you (they don't have to pay you in many states) for the specified period of time. They can also offer to pay you in lieu of feeding, clothing, and/or housing you. These days, however, they must pay you a minimum wage.
In some states, this can also happen on what they call an "at will" basis. I understand that to mean that as long as the person or organization, and yourself, are willing to work under your agreed conditions, you are allowed to do so. If the person or organization decides to let you go, you must go. Likewise, if you decide to quit, they must let you quit.
Many companies and corporations practiced some form of indentured servitude until the Unions came along. In Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Kentucky, mining companies horribly abused this system, which caused the miner's unions to be formed.
What many of the mining companies did was allow a man to work for the mine, on an "at will" basis. They would "give" him a company house, but they would only pay him in "scrip". Several of these companies would also require rent be paid out of the scrip for the company house. Scrip was only good at the "Company Store". It was not accepted anywhere else.
Miners would then buy their necessary items at greatly inflated prices from the company store, often running up massive debts to the company. Needless to say, if a miner wanted to quit, he was forced to pay the debt - in real money - before he was allowed to take his family and leave. This is how the "at will" basis was turned into literal slavery (sound familliar yet?).
Not all mining companies abused their people like this. Some of them treated their employees very well, but because of the ones that didn't, West Virginia, and Kentucky now have laws requiring companies and corporations to pay their employees in real money (Gold, Silver, or US Currency). If they get caught doing otherwise, they can get into big trouble.
Any thoughts? Corrections?? Additions???
Technobyte
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Schwaigers
OK. So it would probably never hold up in court. I still think we came darn close to working (and thinking) like slaves in residence. Even the sexual incidents seem like abuses that slaves have faced traditionally. Many TWI followers still fall into the category of people who have "lost all power of resistance". My back shows no scars from being whipped, but my mind does.
schwaiger@direcway.com
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oldiesman
I agree fully.
The key element is that the possible various forms of slavery were always voluntary.
The door was always open...
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mj412
Remember when it was suppose to be a slave for God?
I remember followers saying they were sold out slaves .
The problem is many and still do not know the difference between twi and God in fact twi was Gods ministry and blah blah .
It was twisted and the lines blurred.
God was twi twi was God.....
yes oldesman people could leave if they wanted to admit not loving God enough to be a sold out believer in service to twi .
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diazbro
I don't think Way workers were slaves - that would insult those who really were.
It is true that people were expected to put in long,long hours for no money and sleep was precious. But no one was forced to remain or was sold as property to TWI. If someone became
a "yes" man or woman then thats what happened. Maybe they thought it was the thing to do - but
they still could have walked at anytime.
I do recall some people complaining
to the local branch leader about his
practice of cramming supporting classes (Dealing With The Adversary, Renewed Mind, CFS, etc) into killer schedules like Thu nite, Fri nite , all day Sat and Sun. He claimed that
he had to do it to accomodate "out of town
guests" but when you looked around the room
you didn't see anyone from out of town. Later
I learned that they did that in every locale.
I don't recall learning much in any of those
classes because of the ridiculous pace they
set. I nodded off alot during all of them and
so did many others. Even the class leader was
caught napping. This is just part of the MO of TWI and other cults also. Keep people tired and
hungry. TWI lifestyle was not caculated to make you comfortable thats for sure.
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Nottawayfer
I felt like a slave some times. Especially during advanced classes--we worked mega hours then. Glad I don't anymore.
;)-->
To handle yourself, use your head; to handle others, use your heart.
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washingtonweather
we had the out of town thing told to us too, but half the time the out of towners weren't there. And, I do recall at some leaders meeting we were told a line of XXXX about how we had to "consume" the bible with short periods inbetween to keep the devil out of our hair while learning the new material.........give me a break... DWA/DTA....after 15 times....its all a murky blurr anyhow.
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excathedra
ok the bus is traveling along at a comfortably fast steady speed. it's dark outside and silent, the middle of the night
bus driver
wierwille
me
me all alone and scared
a few beers and total total zonker land
some old man talking about god and his wanker
slavery
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excathedra
ps. not god's wanker
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oldiesman
I assume you told VPW not to touch you and he went ahead and did it anyway?
If that's the case, then you were his sex slave for a nite.
Perhaps I shouldn't have said "always"; I'm sure there were a couple of exceptions.
I would also put children in that group; those who grew up in TWI and were forced to do certain things because of their parents, had no choice in the matter either...
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excathedra
pat's definitions:
- A captive in servitude, any one in bondage, one who has lost all power of resistance
- The state of being entirely under the will of another
these are accurate in my situation, sorry i don't feel like explaining in greater detail
as far as "sex" goes, i wouldn't call it that at all; i'll let you know if i ever think of the right way to describe it
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Schwaigers
Oldies Guy ... I don't know how old you are, but do you remember that song called "Hotel California"? There's a line in the song that goes like this: "You can check out anytime you want, but you can never leave".
Several times I've read your comments that nobody was forced to stay in TWI ... We decided to stay ... We should accept the consequences ... It was our own choice ... And so forth.
Speaking as a die-hard who got kicked out of Family Corps more than once, let me tell you about your notion that "The door was always open".
To go into residence, you must be debt-free. For most of us, that meant getting rid of everything we owned - our home, our furniture, our pots and pans, you name it. We entered Corps with nothing but the required items on the "What to bring" list. The first time we got kicked out, we found refuge at a state park cabin. (The park was closed for the season). Three kids, a bunch of books, an old car, and our 100% wool mittens. We had no jobs, no friends to help us, and about one week's worth of survival money. Scarey business. At the end of the week, LCM confronted the FC Coordinator for dismissing us, so we were allowed back in. We were told to "Obey, and keep our mouths shut".
After that, we were motivated to obey NOT because we were devoted believers (like when we first got involved with TWI), but because being homeless sucks. It also feels pretty horrible to believe that you have been rejected by God, and it's really frightening to be without friends or family.
The second time we got kicked out, they told us to go to Wichita. We are from Wyoming. Wichita is an alien planet to us. Again, no money, no jobs, no nothing. But we took our kids and drove to Kansas. We got a cheap apartment, promising to pay at the end of a month. We found mattresses in an alley and brought them home to sleep on. We found food in dumpsters, and cooked it using our expensive L.E.A.D. eqipment. Ah yes, the abundant life. I'm talking about a professional couple, college grads, in their 40's, with two kids on the honor roll -- living destitude. See how EASY it was to just walk through that "open door" you refer to?
Later we came across many friends who experienced similar nightmares. One family told us they were followed out of state by Way leadership, and had to travel backroads at night to finally evade them.
Slavery? Maybe not. Maybe so. But Oldies, please reconsider that TWI captives can "check out any time you want". It's hard.
Most of what I've posted here has to do with material consequences. The emotional impact is another level. The song says "You can never leave". That pertains to the emotional stuff. -Pat
schwaiger@direcway.com
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excathedra
ohmygod pat i'm so sorry
love, ex
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Hope R.
I think the in-rez Corps were subjected to slave-like conditions moreso than the people in the local fellowships were.
Trees were planted, ditches were dug, buildings were cleaned, toilets were scrubbed... there was painting and sewing and raking and cooking and a multitude of blue and white collar work going on in Emporia, Rome City and HQ's for years - and the people doing the work were being paid NOTHING to do it.
I remember when TWI sold Emporia - John & I talked about how much "slave labor" was put into the place. The Sickth Corps was the first large Corps to be in rez there - and we worked our butts just getting the place livable.
We got $30 a month in "allowance" - room, board and teachings... that was it.
I'm not saying that people in the local areas weren't and aren't still in bondage to TWI doctrines and practices. But I think the in-rez Corps were treated more like slaves right from the get-go. Because of the physical obedience to the work program, it was easier to keep us in the same kind of bondage mentally.
Hope R. color>size>face>
GO BUCS!!!size> color>
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Schwaigers
$30 a month. Hope, you were in the Sixth Corps. Family Corps numbers were four years behind regular corps. So at the same time you were in residence, the Family Corps was "Family 2". We were in Family 20, eighteen years later. Guess how much money we made per month. $30. That was for each adult, and $10 for each kid. For the few weeks we were in Family 24, the wages were still the same. Geeeeez. -Pat
schwaiger@direcway.com
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