i do not believe that "ministers" know anymore about god or what's going on now or in the future than "we" do
i resent them, actually, for thinking so and preaching so
Some of them have (at least in denominations) gone to a place of higher education that teaches something about the bible. Far too many get by on the basis of personality.
i do not believe that "ministers" know anymore about god or what's going on now or in the future than "we" do
I agree with that. Ministers are trained to perform a certain job. Some do their job well, some dont.
Honestly, The best ministers that I know, know that they DONT know anymore than anyone else.
Ive had plenty enough for one lifetime of the PT Barnum preachers who think they have some specialTM inside info --imo they belong either in a sideshow or a looney bin
There are some wonderful, humble ministers and there are idiots who claim to be ministers. At least we have some experience in spotting them a mile away. Not sure how much of a bonus THAT is!
Once bitten right?
I usually watch where the money goes, a parrot can quote scripture.
Not All ministers are creepy know it alls. I could go on all day about the humble woman that teaches at the church my kiddoes like to go to. I myself don`t set foot in church very often, but when my kids asked to have me in the prayer bulletin, she called me to find out what was up and how she could help.
I am so ill, I have been unable to take care of laundry of house work. She asked could she come and clean. Could she bring food for the kids, could she do laundry, and MEANT it. She has done it before.
She offered to take me to my numerous dr. apts. and hospital for tests. I am not even a member of her church, just a soul in need.
This is a woman who has loved me through all the post cult bs arrogance. I know that she can`t be the only minister out there that truly *ministers* to people on whatever level that they are able or willing to accept.
I believe that a minister is someone who extends themselves to help others...not for self recognition but from a pure heart that genuinely empathizes...and cares.
I won't exclude institutionalized clergy...as posted previously, there are some good ones and some bad ones...
...but each person has the potential in their lives to minister to others, if they have the heart for it...and I don't think that it has anything to do with religion...God, yes...religion, no.
When it comes to "ministering" which means serving, we are all supposed to serve in whatever way we are best suited. There was never any "hierarchy" in the first century church. The idea of a class of believers that was somehow above or separate from the "ordinary" believers came about much later.
The Old Testament Law spoke of ordaining priests who were of the priestly class, who were the ones authorized to offer sacrifices. But under the New Covenant we are all priests, who offer spiritual sacrifices. The New Testament contains descriptions of people overseeing churches or groups of churches, and there are descriptions of individuals being "ordained" to a particular office or function, such as the seven men in Acts 6. But there is no record of anyone being ordained for life, the way OT priests were. The failure to understand the difference led to the so-called priesthood in the Roman Catholic Church, which in turn led to the concept of "ordained clergy" in many Protestant denominations.
There is certainly nothing wrong with having a degree in theology, and an honest Bible scholar recognizes that others may have just as valuable insight as he does. And our society recognizes certain individuals with the legal authority to perform weddings and such. But this is an office or function, not a lifelong change in "rank." Some denominations only use titles like "minister" or "pastor" in relation to their position in a local church, as long as the person remains in that position. There is no Biblical basis for a person being given a lifetime title like "Reverend" that sets him or her apart. Such class or rank designations are not only un-Biblical, but they also make it possible for some individuals to abuse their power. They also can give unsuspecting church members the wrong impression of the leader's power and authority. There is only one Head of the Church, and that is Jesus, who works in each of us in varying ways.
The idea of a class of believers that was somehow above or separate from the "ordinary" believers came about much later.
Im not familiar with when that might be, unless you are referring to the RC Church which Im not too familiar with...
Im not a 'bible guy' or a churchgoer but I know a lot of ministers and it is extremely rare outside of Way or fundamentalist circles to hear even a hint that ministers are somehow specially endowed. Most all of the ones I know downplay it if anything..Ministers have a job to perform like you said, weddings, funerals, baptisms, counselling, education etc.. some are very good, others,, maybe not so much.
They have a degree and title that they somehow earned depending on their groups standards- similar to earning a "Dr." or "Master Plumber" or "CPA" title. It doesnt set them aside as a special class of people (where did that come from?) just informs you that theyve been recognized according to someones standards to do what they do.
The ones who do attempt to flount a title or use it to manipulate people are worth running from imo--in a hurry
When it comes to "ministering" which means serving, we are all supposed to serve in whatever way we are best suited. There was never any "hierarchy" in the first century church. The idea of a class of believers that was somehow above or separate from the "ordinary" believers came about much later.
Actually, there was hierarchy in the first century church. Check out III John 9.
9I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us. 10So if I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, gossiping maliciously about us. Not satisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.
It was all going on back then, too.
i do not believe that "ministers" know anymore about god or what's going on now or in the future than "we" do
i resent them, actually, for thinking so and preaching so
I agree with you, Excathedra. I believe God speaks to us all. It's too bad that some will always consider that they are "over" others.
Agree that some are pompous, arrogant, egomaniacal, self righteous know it alls while others are humble, non-judgemental, self deferential and are not afraid to admit that they don't have all the answers...my preference is for the second kind...nowadays I run from the first kind the second my radar detector picks up on them...and God knows most on here have had plenty of experience with that.
Im not familiar with when that might be, unless you are referring to the RC Church which Im not too familiar with...
Im not a 'bible guy' or a churchgoer but I know a lot of ministers and it is extremely rare outside of Way or fundamentalist circles to hear even a hint that ministers are somehow specially endowed. Most all of the ones I know downplay it if anything..Ministers have a job to perform like you said, weddings, funerals, baptisms, counselling, education etc.. some are very good, others,, maybe not so much.
They have a degree and title that they somehow earned depending on their groups standards- similar to earning a "Dr." or "Master Plumber" or "CPA" title. It doesnt set them aside as a special class of people (where did that come from?) just informs you that theyve been recognized according to someones standards to do what they do.
The ones who do attempt to flount a title or use it to manipulate people are worth running from imo--in a hurry
Yes, I was referring to the RC Church. Historically that is where the idea of ordained priests which are set apart from other believers came from. Outside of the RC, it is seen in cults like TWI, and some fundamentalist circles, but many other Protestant denominations recognize this as unbiblical.
Actually, there was hierarchy in the first century church. Check out III John 9.
9I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us. 10So if I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, gossiping maliciously about us. Not satisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.
It was all going on back then, too.
Diotrephes (and people like him) loved to be first, but that was not a Godly idea. Also, it was not sanctioned by the Church at the time, but reproved, as in this epistle. Later the idea of a special priest class became the official policy of what would become the RC Church.
The great majority of pastors I have met have good hearts, desire to serve the Lord, and care for and genuinely try to help people. But they also have their faults and shortcomings like everyone else. And there is no shortage of people who are willing to point this out to them in one way or another (witness the number of criticisms on this thread).
I do believe that the growth and Bible knowledge of pastors are accelerated compared to those who aren't serving as pastors.
This is because both opportunities and demands are much higher.
If you had to teach 5 or 6 Bible studies a week for a few decades, do you think your knowledge of God's Word and wisdom would grow? This gives opportunity to grow in ways that others don't have.
Pastors also have more demands forced on them than those who aren't pastors. People come to you with severe illnesses, deaths, and you have to minister to each one even when you don't know what to do. A person in the congregation asks for advice on handling prodigal sons, or promiscuous teens, or difficult spouse, or a child who commits suicide- what do you say?
Transients and poor people repeatedly come asking for hand outs. Some of them try to manipuate you. Other people have serious spiritual problems- feeling guilt that they feel can't be forgiven, or doubts that threaten their very faith. What do you say or do? Others fear God and can't sense his love. How can you help them? What do you do to help spark people's faith? Or rebuild marriages? And you have to reach out to people even when you find them hard to relate to for one reason or another
There is a kind of burden that comes with having people look to you with such needs.
Everyone encounters some of these. Pastors over a period of time encounter them all, and more often, and people look to you to answer their needs in a way they don't look to others. So I think if you have a heart open to God and His Word, pastors normally do have a greater knowledge of God's Word and ways than average. Not that they're a different class, but have responsibility and opportunity and demands that others don't.
Well said, johnj. The danger comes when people are taught, as they were in TWI, that the leader is in a special class, and his words are equivalent to God's words. Then people stop thinking for themselves and allow their leaders and the organization as a whole to control their lives, rather than learning to think for themselves and to let God guide them.
As long as people recognize that their pastor, while having more experience and Biblical knowledge, is still a human subject to error, they are safe. And the best pastors bring every situation back to God and His Word and encourage their people to seek Him, and His solutions and His guidance.
johnj's post brings up a contrast: there are many things that people expect of pastors, and many, if not most, see it as their mission to help, not rule over.
In TWI and some other organizations, those in leadership positions see their role not as helping the individual, but guarding the larger entity, whether that be "the ministry" or "The Word" itself. Granted there were some TWI leaders who did not see themselves that way, but the prevailing mindset was "The Word" first, people second.
Mark Clarke, actually The Holy Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox church were 1 and the same until about 1000 AD, though as early as 600 AD/CE there were some disagreements between them understanding the minute, trivial details on doctrine(how to define the trinity and 2 natures of Jesus the Christ),
and the role of the Pope as leader instead of one of the patriarchs co-equal to Instanbul, Jerusalem, Egypt, etc.
Both have the same type of hierarchy, and is modified in Episcopalian/Anglican, Lutheran(not all factions agree to this), United Methodist, and Moravian.
Pastors also have more demands forced on them than those who aren't pastors. People come to you with severe illnesses, deaths, and you have to minister to each one even when you don't know what to do. A person in the congregation asks for advice on handling prodigal sons, or promiscuous teens, or difficult spouse, or a child who commits suicide- what do you say?
Transients and poor people repeatedly come asking for hand outs. Some of them try to manipuate you. Other people have serious spiritual problems- feeling guilt that they feel can't be forgiven, or doubts that threaten their very faith. What do you say or do? Others fear God and can't sense his love. How can you help them? What do you do to help spark people's faith? Or rebuild marriages? And you have to reach out to people even when you find them hard to relate to for one reason or another
What makes you think that non pastors don't have to deal with these issues?
In the past 30 years I've dealt with and consoled friends, relatives and employees on every one of these issues. Granted, not on a daily basis but still these things come up.
jj, you have to realize that many of us have been doing the "work" of a "minister" for years and years
oh gosh, i shouldn't have started this thread
my point(s) is/are not coming across
i'll try to think about it and let you know
--
one thing for certain is that a dear friend of mine (a god-fearing, whatever you call it, lovely human being) was maniputlated by a "minister" and it really p'd me off
not to mention many other things about ministers i don't like
doesn't mean i don't like and/respect some of them, okay?
-----
once one starts saying, one has the corner on the market on helping people, i just can't see it
oh and this one from mstar
Honestly, The best ministers that I know, know that they DONT know anymore than anyone else.
humility and love are two of the most important elements in relationships, and all the more so for people in spiritual leadership positions.
People trust you when you have them, and distrust you when you don't (and rightly so). And people recognize pretty quickly whether humility and love are there or not, as least when they see you up close rather than just on stage.
Mark Clarke, actually The Holy Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox church were 1 and the same until about 1000 AD, though as early as 600 AD/CE there were some disagreements between them understanding the minute, trivial details on doctrine(how to define the trinity and 2 natures of Jesus the Christ),
and the role of the Pope as leader instead of one of the patriarchs co-equal to Instanbul, Jerusalem, Egypt, etc.
Both have the same type of hierarchy, and is modified in Episcopalian/Anglican, Lutheran(not all factions agree to this), United Methodist, and Moravian.
Thanks - I forgot about the Eastern Orthodox split.
What makes you think that non pastors don't have to deal with these issues?
In the past 30 years I've dealt with and consoled friends, relatives and employees on every one of these issues. Granted, not on a daily basis but still these things come up.
Yes, everyone is supposed to do the work of a minister to some extent. I think johnj's point was that pastors do it every day and usually have some kind of formal training as well. Doesn't make them better or special though.
well, there's a point, jim
jj, you have to realize that many of us have been doing the "work" of a "minister" for years and years
oh gosh, i shouldn't have started this thread
my point(s) is/are not coming across
i'll try to think about it and let you know
--
one thing for certain is that a dear friend of mine (a god-fearing, whatever you call it, lovely human being) was maniputlated by a "minister" and it really p'd me off
not to mention many other things about ministers i don't like
doesn't mean i don't like and/respect some of them, okay?
I think I got your point. While pastors in many denominations are humble and genuinely dedicated to service, there was in TWI that ridiculous and devilish idea that the leaders (especially if they were Corps grads and even more so with "ordained" clergy) were specially set apart and because of their "commitment" we were expected to receive their words as if they were direct from God.
Occasionally God did work in some of them, but more often than not it was ego and a power trip, by which many (though not all) of them manipulated and even abused their people. If people aren't taught that the leaders are a special class, there is less opportunity for such manipulation and abuse. Also, there always needs to be accountability.
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Tzaia
Some of them have (at least in denominations) gone to a place of higher education that teaches something about the bible. Far too many get by on the basis of personality.
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mstar1
I agree with that. Ministers are trained to perform a certain job. Some do their job well, some dont.
Honestly, The best ministers that I know, know that they DONT know anymore than anyone else.
Ive had plenty enough for one lifetime of the PT Barnum preachers who think they have some specialTM inside info --imo they belong either in a sideshow or a looney bin
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geisha779
Hi Excathedra :)
There are some wonderful, humble ministers and there are idiots who claim to be ministers. At least we have some experience in spotting them a mile away. Not sure how much of a bonus THAT is!
Once bitten right?
I usually watch where the money goes, a parrot can quote scripture.
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rascal
Ex, I have to agree with Geisha,
Not All ministers are creepy know it alls. I could go on all day about the humble woman that teaches at the church my kiddoes like to go to. I myself don`t set foot in church very often, but when my kids asked to have me in the prayer bulletin, she called me to find out what was up and how she could help.
I am so ill, I have been unable to take care of laundry of house work. She asked could she come and clean. Could she bring food for the kids, could she do laundry, and MEANT it. She has done it before.
She offered to take me to my numerous dr. apts. and hospital for tests. I am not even a member of her church, just a soul in need.
This is a woman who has loved me through all the post cult bs arrogance. I know that she can`t be the only minister out there that truly *ministers* to people on whatever level that they are able or willing to accept.
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GrouchoMarxJr
So what is a minister?...
I believe that a minister is someone who extends themselves to help others...not for self recognition but from a pure heart that genuinely empathizes...and cares.
I won't exclude institutionalized clergy...as posted previously, there are some good ones and some bad ones...
...but each person has the potential in their lives to minister to others, if they have the heart for it...and I don't think that it has anything to do with religion...God, yes...religion, no.
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Jim
Call me a grumpy old bastard, but they are all suspect until they prove themselves worthy of the calling.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...You grumpy old bastard!
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Mark Clarke
When it comes to "ministering" which means serving, we are all supposed to serve in whatever way we are best suited. There was never any "hierarchy" in the first century church. The idea of a class of believers that was somehow above or separate from the "ordinary" believers came about much later.
The Old Testament Law spoke of ordaining priests who were of the priestly class, who were the ones authorized to offer sacrifices. But under the New Covenant we are all priests, who offer spiritual sacrifices. The New Testament contains descriptions of people overseeing churches or groups of churches, and there are descriptions of individuals being "ordained" to a particular office or function, such as the seven men in Acts 6. But there is no record of anyone being ordained for life, the way OT priests were. The failure to understand the difference led to the so-called priesthood in the Roman Catholic Church, which in turn led to the concept of "ordained clergy" in many Protestant denominations.
There is certainly nothing wrong with having a degree in theology, and an honest Bible scholar recognizes that others may have just as valuable insight as he does. And our society recognizes certain individuals with the legal authority to perform weddings and such. But this is an office or function, not a lifelong change in "rank." Some denominations only use titles like "minister" or "pastor" in relation to their position in a local church, as long as the person remains in that position. There is no Biblical basis for a person being given a lifetime title like "Reverend" that sets him or her apart. Such class or rank designations are not only un-Biblical, but they also make it possible for some individuals to abuse their power. They also can give unsuspecting church members the wrong impression of the leader's power and authority. There is only one Head of the Church, and that is Jesus, who works in each of us in varying ways.
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mstar1
Im not familiar with when that might be, unless you are referring to the RC Church which Im not too familiar with...
Im not a 'bible guy' or a churchgoer but I know a lot of ministers and it is extremely rare outside of Way or fundamentalist circles to hear even a hint that ministers are somehow specially endowed. Most all of the ones I know downplay it if anything..Ministers have a job to perform like you said, weddings, funerals, baptisms, counselling, education etc.. some are very good, others,, maybe not so much.
They have a degree and title that they somehow earned depending on their groups standards- similar to earning a "Dr." or "Master Plumber" or "CPA" title. It doesnt set them aside as a special class of people (where did that come from?) just informs you that theyve been recognized according to someones standards to do what they do.
The ones who do attempt to flount a title or use it to manipulate people are worth running from imo--in a hurry
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waterbuffalo
Actually, there was hierarchy in the first century church. Check out III John 9.
9I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us. 10So if I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, gossiping maliciously about us. Not satisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.
It was all going on back then, too.
I agree with you, Excathedra. I believe God speaks to us all. It's too bad that some will always consider that they are "over" others.
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JeffSjo
For me, this quickly brings to mind," Knowledge puffs up, but charity builds up."
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Calflor
Agree that some are pompous, arrogant, egomaniacal, self righteous know it alls while others are humble, non-judgemental, self deferential and are not afraid to admit that they don't have all the answers...my preference is for the second kind...nowadays I run from the first kind the second my radar detector picks up on them...and God knows most on here have had plenty of experience with that.
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Mark Clarke
Yes, I was referring to the RC Church. Historically that is where the idea of ordained priests which are set apart from other believers came from. Outside of the RC, it is seen in cults like TWI, and some fundamentalist circles, but many other Protestant denominations recognize this as unbiblical.
Diotrephes (and people like him) loved to be first, but that was not a Godly idea. Also, it was not sanctioned by the Church at the time, but reproved, as in this epistle. Later the idea of a special priest class became the official policy of what would become the RC Church.
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johnj
The great majority of pastors I have met have good hearts, desire to serve the Lord, and care for and genuinely try to help people. But they also have their faults and shortcomings like everyone else. And there is no shortage of people who are willing to point this out to them in one way or another (witness the number of criticisms on this thread).
I do believe that the growth and Bible knowledge of pastors are accelerated compared to those who aren't serving as pastors.
This is because both opportunities and demands are much higher.
If you had to teach 5 or 6 Bible studies a week for a few decades, do you think your knowledge of God's Word and wisdom would grow? This gives opportunity to grow in ways that others don't have.
Pastors also have more demands forced on them than those who aren't pastors. People come to you with severe illnesses, deaths, and you have to minister to each one even when you don't know what to do. A person in the congregation asks for advice on handling prodigal sons, or promiscuous teens, or difficult spouse, or a child who commits suicide- what do you say?
Transients and poor people repeatedly come asking for hand outs. Some of them try to manipuate you. Other people have serious spiritual problems- feeling guilt that they feel can't be forgiven, or doubts that threaten their very faith. What do you say or do? Others fear God and can't sense his love. How can you help them? What do you do to help spark people's faith? Or rebuild marriages? And you have to reach out to people even when you find them hard to relate to for one reason or another
There is a kind of burden that comes with having people look to you with such needs.
Everyone encounters some of these. Pastors over a period of time encounter them all, and more often, and people look to you to answer their needs in a way they don't look to others. So I think if you have a heart open to God and His Word, pastors normally do have a greater knowledge of God's Word and ways than average. Not that they're a different class, but have responsibility and opportunity and demands that others don't.
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Mark Clarke
Well said, johnj. The danger comes when people are taught, as they were in TWI, that the leader is in a special class, and his words are equivalent to God's words. Then people stop thinking for themselves and allow their leaders and the organization as a whole to control their lives, rather than learning to think for themselves and to let God guide them.
As long as people recognize that their pastor, while having more experience and Biblical knowledge, is still a human subject to error, they are safe. And the best pastors bring every situation back to God and His Word and encourage their people to seek Him, and His solutions and His guidance.
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waysider
O.J.T.
(On The Job Training)
Not much opportunity for gaining any using the The Way System of Theology.
If someone has a serious problem, blame it on their believing or their walk.
Get rid of them and look for someone who'll sign "The Green Card".
Sure, there were people in The Way who ministered in a genuine sense.
They risked reprimand to do so.
I don't fault those people for a second.
It was the TWI system itself that was corrupted and discouraged helping people in a real sense.
The system was at fault.
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Oakspear
johnj's post brings up a contrast: there are many things that people expect of pastors, and many, if not most, see it as their mission to help, not rule over.
In TWI and some other organizations, those in leadership positions see their role not as helping the individual, but guarding the larger entity, whether that be "the ministry" or "The Word" itself. Granted there were some TWI leaders who did not see themselves that way, but the prevailing mindset was "The Word" first, people second.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Mark Clarke, actually The Holy Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox church were 1 and the same until about 1000 AD, though as early as 600 AD/CE there were some disagreements between them understanding the minute, trivial details on doctrine(how to define the trinity and 2 natures of Jesus the Christ),
and the role of the Pope as leader instead of one of the patriarchs co-equal to Instanbul, Jerusalem, Egypt, etc.
Both have the same type of hierarchy, and is modified in Episcopalian/Anglican, Lutheran(not all factions agree to this), United Methodist, and Moravian.
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excathedra
i see not stated properly. sorry.
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Jim
What makes you think that non pastors don't have to deal with these issues?
In the past 30 years I've dealt with and consoled friends, relatives and employees on every one of these issues. Granted, not on a daily basis but still these things come up.
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excathedra
well, there's a point, jim
jj, you have to realize that many of us have been doing the "work" of a "minister" for years and years
oh gosh, i shouldn't have started this thread
my point(s) is/are not coming across
i'll try to think about it and let you know
--
one thing for certain is that a dear friend of mine (a god-fearing, whatever you call it, lovely human being) was maniputlated by a "minister" and it really p'd me off
not to mention many other things about ministers i don't like
doesn't mean i don't like and/respect some of them, okay?
-----
once one starts saying, one has the corner on the market on helping people, i just can't see it
oh and this one from mstar
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johnj
humility and love are two of the most important elements in relationships, and all the more so for people in spiritual leadership positions.
People trust you when you have them, and distrust you when you don't (and rightly so). And people recognize pretty quickly whether humility and love are there or not, as least when they see you up close rather than just on stage.
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Mark Clarke
Thanks - I forgot about the Eastern Orthodox split.
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Mark Clarke
Yes, everyone is supposed to do the work of a minister to some extent. I think johnj's point was that pastors do it every day and usually have some kind of formal training as well. Doesn't make them better or special though.
I think I got your point. While pastors in many denominations are humble and genuinely dedicated to service, there was in TWI that ridiculous and devilish idea that the leaders (especially if they were Corps grads and even more so with "ordained" clergy) were specially set apart and because of their "commitment" we were expected to receive their words as if they were direct from God.
Occasionally God did work in some of them, but more often than not it was ego and a power trip, by which many (though not all) of them manipulated and even abused their people. If people aren't taught that the leaders are a special class, there is less opportunity for such manipulation and abuse. Also, there always needs to be accountability.
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