God was the Lord of the Old Testament but He was not their Father.
Those who are born of Him He will not destroy. There may be some who choose to not be born of His seed. They destroy themselves by that choice. He is my Father I am His child. He is not this big bad evil dude waiting to bonk me on the head and turn His back on me if I do something wrong. That is never once recorded of Him to His children in the Church Epistles.
Actually God is called Israel's father in a few OT passages. Not in the same sense as the New Birth, though.
But more importantly, the image of a "big bad evil dude waiting to bonk me on the head and turn His back on me if I do something wrong" is not only absent from the Church Epistles, it is not in the Bible at all. When He pronounced judgment in the OT He was not "waiting for them to screw up." He warned them and called them back many times before punishing them, and even then the punishment was to get them to see the error of their ways and call them back. It was a misconception based on dispensationalism in TWI that presented God as harsh in the OT but kind and forgiving in the NT. God's mercy abounded even in the OT - if it hadn't we wouldn't be here.
That said, I like your description of God meeting us where we are. His patience and forbearance are AMAZING. The sacrifice of Jesus was so costly, and yet it made it possible for ANYONE, Jew or Gentile, to receive God's promise of life in the age to come, which none of us deserves. So it's all grace, but on the condition that we accept His offer, by way of His Son. Sadly, some do not accept it, and so they will not be saved. But that doesn't mean salvation is based on works, as some say. It's all grace.
if to be loved requires a 'condition' of the one loved
then it's not love
we are commanded to love
there is a love that burns all limits away
---
what is it to confess sin?
---
the vengeance is forgiveness
of a degree that has yet to be disclosed fully to me
but enough to see changes, and a new mind a new heart
it happens because it takes more then me to go through it
the love never stopped, never will....
cman
I have read every verse, word, and question posed on this thread. . . . :) Can God so love the world--yet have conditions in place for salvation?
Jesus did die for all of us. Not all of us accept Him. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son . . . that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God has shown us His love once and for all time through Jesus. That is the love of God. That is it. HE is the exact representation of God. . . if you reject Him you are rejecting God. There is no more sacrifice. . . . no more talk. . . no last minute save some other way. . . He is it. . . He is enough.
People belong to the world or they belong to God. God calls all men to Himself through Jesus. Not through Allah or through Buddha or through our own religion. Not all answer Him.
Do you realize that Jesus prayed for those who belong to Him? Not the world, but His own? Those of us who belong to Him.
John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
He loves His own to a particular perfecting end. To the fullest degree. Eis telios
John 13
1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
Having loved His own.
We can't assign our own understanding of love to God. If there are conditions to salvation. . . that doesn't mean God doesn't "not" love. He showed us that love--for ALL--it is here--Jesus is how God showed the world His love. If we reject Him. . . we are rejecting God's love.
There is NO other way to accept God's love than through Jesus. People are free to believe whatever they wish. However, that does not mean they will all be saved.
The bible is full of people who rejected Jesus. The world is full of people who reject Jesus. God loves them. . .He has shown them HE loves them. Through Jesus Christ!! It is MORE than good enough and big enough to cover us all. . . IF we will believe we will be saved.
Today if you hear His voice do NOT harden your hearts.
Contrary to our self-centered thinking cman we are not central to God . . . He is.
I am going to come at this love thing in another way here. Let's see if we can agree on any of this.
What does God's loving us do? I am of the mind that it GLORIFIESS Him. That is the real purpose.
Romans 15:8-9
8 For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers,
9and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written,
"THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES,
AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME."
Ephesians 4: 1Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
Could be the goal of God's love is that we PRAISE him?
Psalm 86 12 I give thanks to you, O Lord my God, with my whole heart,
and I will glorify your name forever.
13 For great is your steadfast love toward me;
you have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.
Now, that might sound like God is self-centered right? If that is someone's response to those verses or what I am TRYING to convey. . . I would just implore you to stop and THINK for a moment about who God is. . .
His love is not about how great we are?? That God NEEDS man. . .No, the bible tells us what we are. . . next to God we KNOW what we are. . . Don't ever let our own moral indifference lead us to believe that God is morally indifferent! His love pulls us from our own self-centered love into loving and glorifying HIM. Why? He is WORTHY. . . HE is what satisfies. . . HE is what we inwardly LONG for. . .HE is PERFECT and GLORIOUS and GREAT beyond comprehension. He is giving us the BEST possible thing to enjoy forever. . . Himself.
That is love. God will see to it that He is Glorified. . . as Christians it is our PURPOSE!!! What we are called to. The rocks will cry out for goodness sake. . . .
Romans 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
The cross is the ultimate expression of divine love. God is just and sin must be punished. We can't forget that about God. . . HE cannot abide sin. . . He is HOLY and He is JUST! He did the unthinkable. . . He put His own Son to death for us. It was His will. Jesus bore the punishment you and I deserve.
That has to show us that God cannot forever abide sin and always wink it away. HE vindicated His justice while showing us His mercy. Staggering!! He punished OUR sin in Christ for those who BELIEVE.
But, you have to look at this too. It served to display His RIGHTEOUSNESS. HIS HIS HIS. . . . He was exalted at the cross. His glory and Mercy were on display. HIS Justice--HIM. The cross is NOT about us. The aim and result GLORIFIES GOD!!
Because of it---WE can partake in glorifying God. . . WE can know that satifaction that comes from exalting and loving Him. That is the real love of God in Christ.
Do you get it? That is how He showed His love. By allowing us to love Him. . . to know Him. . . to be satisfied in Him through Jesus.
It is not about us and our own ideas of love or what we think is right. God is glorified--we are satisfied!!
do you think that is supposed to make me something?
it's not the love that I came up with
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
why is it that I'm being told to do something?
I can think whatever I please
ideas are not wrong
thinking is not wrong
changing my mind is not wrong
my motives and intent seem to be in question
am I promoting myself?
I don't think so
nor will I try to point out any good in me
except what another has done in us all
not because of something I did or did not do
some seem to be saying I'm wrong or something
we will change
no doubt
You are right here. . . God loves ideas and thinking. He commands us to love Him with all our heart, soul, MIND, and strength. Changing your mind is a way of life. . . If it was perfect you would not need to change it.
I didn't realize any responsive posts here were about you or your motives? I didn't realize any were about you being wrong. . . I didn't realize it was about you at all.
I disagree, and this seems to not even make much sense.
If our thinking is self-centered, how would that affect our being central to God. Either we are or we are not.
We are the sum of God's Creation.
The expression of the Complete thought of the Creator--the Word of God.
Cman, If You do read GOD's Word to study to show Yourself approved unto Him, It is evident in this thread that You do not rightly divide THE WORD OF GOD. To understand and to discern spiritual things...spiritual matters You MUST be in alignment and harmony with GOD, HIS WILL and HIS WORD; and very little if any of what you say here even comes close to what GOD in HIS WORD clearly and repeatedly states!!!
Putting what You think in Your own words is private interpretation with additives and your additives are incomplete and void of scriptural content, authority and meaning!!! That is why I asked you to build the right foundation, I asked you to build a scriptural case or admit that your doctrine is in fact your doctrine and your doctrine is not THE WORD OF GOD!!!
THINGS THAT ARE SPIRITUAL are spiritual and from the right spiritual source, GOD!!! Things that are carnal are carnal; If we are yet carnal we are at enmity with GOD; otherwise we are to walk with GOD by the spirit that He has given us in the framework of HIS Word " IT IS WRITTEN"!!!
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cr 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, [is it] a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
1Cr 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
IT IS WRITTEN
and with a purpose and it does matter to GOD...and to me...I stand with and for GOD...who stands with me??? GOD knows as well as He Knows who stands against HIM!!!!
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mat 11:10 For this is [he], of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Mat 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Mar 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 9:12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
Mar 9:13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.
Mar 11:17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mar 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
Mar 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
Luk 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)
Luk 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Luk 4:10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
Luk 7:27 This is [he], of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Luk 19:46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Jhn 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
[/b]
(-thanks magi-) Who are You thanking???
Me I am Thanking GOD that I can both understand and rightly divide HIS Word and stand before Him as a workman that needeth not to be ashamed
I disagree, and this seems to not even make much sense.
If our thinking is self-centered, how would that affect our being central to God. Either we are or we are not.
We are the sum of God's Creation.
The expression of the Complete thought of the Creator--the Word of God.
(-thanks magi-)
Hi cman;
The word--Logos--is a title for Jesus--not us.
God is complete and satisfied in Himself--He doesn't need anything to complete Him. He is filled and overflowing within Himself.
We, on the otherhand, are complete in Him. We look for something outside of us to make us happy. The one true thing that satisfies us is God.
God can take joy in us--when we walk in truth. . . Jesus said "I have spoken these things to you so that my joy may be in you and your joy may be complete."
But, God's existence, His happiness, His glory, His wisdom, knowledge, perfection, in no way depend on us. We are the created.
His overflowing love is shared with us--so that we may be filled --that in turn brings praise and honor and glory to Him--We can do nothing but praise when we truly see Him-
We find our delight in God--not the other way around. We have this because God is good.
Isaiah 48:11
11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it,
for how should my name be profaned?
My glory I will not give to another.
Ephesians 1
6He predestined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace.
12We who first hoped in Christ have been predestined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory.
14The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of his glory.
2 Thessalonians 1:10
10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
Romans 11:36
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
I am presenting GOD's opinion to You, not my own!!!
Truthfully I just skim your posts.
That is abundantly clear Cman, for if You were willing to read and understand it; you would understand that it is given in Love to benefit and serve and accomplish GOD's purposes!!!!
The scriptures are not the Word of God
But a result of the Word.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
Your accusations against me are baseless.
If you are stuck on CONTINUING like this.
Then knock yourself out, I can't do much with it.
These accusations as you call them, They are well founded sound doctrine, reproofs and corrections of sound doctrine and worthy of all acceptation, not at all baseless accusations. They are strictly Word based and in alignment and harmony with GOD's WORD!!! It is GOD's Word speaking and it is GOD and His Word, HIS HOLY SCRIPTURES that you directly oppose and will not read, receive or benefit from.!!!
It is my absolute pleasure to stand for GOD and HIS WORD!!! It makes me righteously angry when anyone maligns and impugns GOD and His Word. It is heartbreaking for me as I Love with the Love of GOD!!! I cannot fathom the loss that it is to GOD and HIS HEART OF LOVE!!!!!
Cman wrote :'"I can't do much with it."
This is true...Yet it is GOD's desire that You do...You, Cman have made you choice and chosen your way and inadvertently answered all my questions!!! I hope out of HIS Love that You do change to do GOD's WORD and WILL. Peace and I do Love You ((((Cman))))...It is your carnal doctrine that I oppose!!!!
TWI didn't write the HOLY BIBLE the Scriptures are HOLY they were in existence long before TWI... Cman The accusation that you make that they separated man from GOD is without foundation. We all were touched in a multiplicity of ways and degrees by TWI's errors and hurt by the TWI abuses but leaving the study and adherence to GOD and HIS WORD and WILL is an inexcusable excuse to cast into GOD's Face as a recompense:
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. !!!
Cman wrote:[Probably the biggest error of twi teachings,
is separating man from God.
Being angry with GOD is a reaction to the abuse of HIS WORD. HE GOD and HIS Word are not the abusers of anyone or anything, but in like manner as TWI's abuses were, GOD is now being abused by many that were abused; and to quote Geisha:
Geisha wrote: There is a famous sermon by Jonathan Edwards(From my neck of the woods)called "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"-----as I have been reading along here lately. . . I think. . . as RC Sprouls says. . . "God in the Hands of Angry Sinners."
I do believe that GOD is now is the hands of angry sinners!!!
For as much as the abuses of TWI were cruel, harsh, horrifying, devastating, and debilitating what makes abusing GOD and HIS WORD any better than the abuses received through TWI's abusers or any other abusive system in this world. How do You then not escape being in the same category of abusing as TWI's abuser of GOD and mankind, by rejecting GOD's WORD and WILL for doctrines of men. Such audacity of thought!!! Can anyone judge what GOD does or does not excuse and excuse themselves from GOD's WILL and WORD, constantly bringing forward their TWI's or anyone elses sins without recognizing that GOD is not the problem and neither is HIS WORD and the answer is not Hewing out one's own doctrines and thinking and doing as one pleases. GOD alone is Judge!!!
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
I myself am far from perfect but I do not blame GOD for my sins or the sins of others!!! GOD could only be accountable if we were not given free will and we were merely HIS Puppets. Then all err would be HIS responsibility!!!
to see that there is no degree of separation between god and men
neither shadow of turning nor changes will alter what has been done
is done and will be done, all now, from the beginning, yet largely unseen
not because of fault, but by design
Now this is not a dis cman, but an observation. . . .the above post is so cryptic it is not really something I can decipher.
What does that mean?
Not that it really matters. You have your theology and don't really seem interested in mine which I share in large part with RG.
BTW I too wonder. . . who is Magi??
Here is what I think. . . .
God is so wonderful. . . so majestic. . . eternal. . . just Glorious and overflowing with perfection. Really beyond my vocabulary.
It is a fallen world. Look around you--man and God are at enmity. We seek our own way.
But, the only way we are reconciled to God is by His Son Jesus Christ. It is repentance and faith in Jesus. . . .His finished work on the Cross. If we want . . . we can ask Him for true saving faith. He welcomes all. But, by no other name are we saved.
People can reject Him, deny Him, malign Him, revile Him, mock Him, it never changes who He is or that He is.
He showed us His love once and for all by sending His Son to die in our place. That is how He loved the world. It is enough. It is big enough to save us all if we will but believe on Him.
Jesus is the express image of God. . . the bible reveals Him. . . He is how God has communicated Himself to us.
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
I won't really say any more than that.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” 35 “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” 36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
Nor will I force the matter. Different point of view.
Perspectives will change, new thoughts and changes.
There are things people go through in life.
Some of them are here in this chapter I believe.
And as we change, which is certain, some different factors in this chapter happen at one time or another in each individuals life. Perhaps not all of them are realized. But to some degree they are experienced.
There are some very good points in this chapter to which would help some to relax a bit.
I have no problem with other perspectives, Calvinists or whatever.
They just may not be mine today.
So....shoot.....I don't have a problem with anyone.
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RainbowsGirl
I am Not Yelling; I am emphasizing FOR THOSE WHO ARE ACTUALLY READING!!!!!!!
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Mark Clarke
Actually God is called Israel's father in a few OT passages. Not in the same sense as the New Birth, though.
But more importantly, the image of a "big bad evil dude waiting to bonk me on the head and turn His back on me if I do something wrong" is not only absent from the Church Epistles, it is not in the Bible at all. When He pronounced judgment in the OT He was not "waiting for them to screw up." He warned them and called them back many times before punishing them, and even then the punishment was to get them to see the error of their ways and call them back. It was a misconception based on dispensationalism in TWI that presented God as harsh in the OT but kind and forgiving in the NT. God's mercy abounded even in the OT - if it hadn't we wouldn't be here.
That said, I like your description of God meeting us where we are. His patience and forbearance are AMAZING. The sacrifice of Jesus was so costly, and yet it made it possible for ANYONE, Jew or Gentile, to receive God's promise of life in the age to come, which none of us deserves. So it's all grace, but on the condition that we accept His offer, by way of His Son. Sadly, some do not accept it, and so they will not be saved. But that doesn't mean salvation is based on works, as some say. It's all grace.
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geisha779
cman
I have read every verse, word, and question posed on this thread. . . . :) Can God so love the world--yet have conditions in place for salvation?
Jesus did die for all of us. Not all of us accept Him. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son . . . that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God has shown us His love once and for all time through Jesus. That is the love of God. That is it. HE is the exact representation of God. . . if you reject Him you are rejecting God. There is no more sacrifice. . . . no more talk. . . no last minute save some other way. . . He is it. . . He is enough.
People belong to the world or they belong to God. God calls all men to Himself through Jesus. Not through Allah or through Buddha or through our own religion. Not all answer Him.
Do you realize that Jesus prayed for those who belong to Him? Not the world, but His own? Those of us who belong to Him.
John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
He loves His own to a particular perfecting end. To the fullest degree. Eis telios
John 13
1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
Having loved His own.
We can't assign our own understanding of love to God. If there are conditions to salvation. . . that doesn't mean God doesn't "not" love. He showed us that love--for ALL--it is here--Jesus is how God showed the world His love. If we reject Him. . . we are rejecting God's love.
There is NO other way to accept God's love than through Jesus. People are free to believe whatever they wish. However, that does not mean they will all be saved.
The bible is full of people who rejected Jesus. The world is full of people who reject Jesus. God loves them. . .He has shown them HE loves them. Through Jesus Christ!! It is MORE than good enough and big enough to cover us all. . . IF we will believe we will be saved.
Today if you hear His voice do NOT harden your hearts.
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cman
love will overcome your will
and then love will be your will
an understatement, cause it is so powerful
We can be open to receiving.
soon there will be no other choice but love
cause the rest is illusions, and will be seen as such
I'm not recruiting.
Don't need to, it's already done.
But I can speak of what I've seen and heard.
And I will, the spirit willing....
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geisha779
Well, okay. . . I guess. But, unless you speak of Jesus and Him crucified then it is your thoughts and your visions.
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cman
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
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geisha779
Contrary to our self-centered thinking cman we are not central to God . . . He is.
I am going to come at this love thing in another way here. Let's see if we can agree on any of this.
What does God's loving us do? I am of the mind that it GLORIFIESS Him. That is the real purpose.
Romans 15:8-9
8 For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers,
9and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written,
"THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES,
AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME."
Ephesians 4: 1Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
Could be the goal of God's love is that we PRAISE him?
Psalm 86 12 I give thanks to you, O Lord my God, with my whole heart,
and I will glorify your name forever.
13 For great is your steadfast love toward me;
you have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.
Now, that might sound like God is self-centered right? If that is someone's response to those verses or what I am TRYING to convey. . . I would just implore you to stop and THINK for a moment about who God is. . .
His love is not about how great we are?? That God NEEDS man. . .No, the bible tells us what we are. . . next to God we KNOW what we are. . . Don't ever let our own moral indifference lead us to believe that God is morally indifferent! His love pulls us from our own self-centered love into loving and glorifying HIM. Why? He is WORTHY. . . HE is what satisfies. . . HE is what we inwardly LONG for. . .HE is PERFECT and GLORIOUS and GREAT beyond comprehension. He is giving us the BEST possible thing to enjoy forever. . . Himself.
That is love. God will see to it that He is Glorified. . . as Christians it is our PURPOSE!!! What we are called to. The rocks will cry out for goodness sake. . . .
Romans 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
The cross is the ultimate expression of divine love. God is just and sin must be punished. We can't forget that about God. . . HE cannot abide sin. . . He is HOLY and He is JUST! He did the unthinkable. . . He put His own Son to death for us. It was His will. Jesus bore the punishment you and I deserve.
That has to show us that God cannot forever abide sin and always wink it away. HE vindicated His justice while showing us His mercy. Staggering!! He punished OUR sin in Christ for those who BELIEVE.
But, you have to look at this too. It served to display His RIGHTEOUSNESS. HIS HIS HIS. . . . He was exalted at the cross. His glory and Mercy were on display. HIS Justice--HIM. The cross is NOT about us. The aim and result GLORIFIES GOD!!
Because of it---WE can partake in glorifying God. . . WE can know that satifaction that comes from exalting and loving Him. That is the real love of God in Christ.
Do you get it? That is how He showed His love. By allowing us to love Him. . . to know Him. . . to be satisfied in Him through Jesus.
It is not about us and our own ideas of love or what we think is right. God is glorified--we are satisfied!!
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
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cman
I think I said I'm told to love.
do you think that is supposed to make me something?
it's not the love that I came up with
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
why is it that I'm being told to do something?
I can think whatever I please
ideas are not wrong
thinking is not wrong
changing my mind is not wrong
my motives and intent seem to be in question
am I promoting myself?
I don't think so
nor will I try to point out any good in me
except what another has done in us all
not because of something I did or did not do
some seem to be saying I'm wrong or something
we will change
no doubt
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geisha779
You are right here. . . God loves ideas and thinking. He commands us to love Him with all our heart, soul, MIND, and strength. Changing your mind is a way of life. . . If it was perfect you would not need to change it.
I didn't realize any responsive posts here were about you or your motives? I didn't realize any were about you being wrong. . . I didn't realize it was about you at all.
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cman
Your posts are interesting Geisha.
Here you made a few things about me-
I suppose I am not to realize this.
I disagree.
I disagree, and this seems to not even make much sense.
If our thinking is self-centered, how would that affect our being central to God. Either we are or we are not.
We are the sum of God's Creation.
The expression of the Complete thought of the Creator--the Word of God.
(-thanks magi-)
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RainbowsGirl
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cman
RG, Thanks for your opinion and encouragement.
Truthfully I just skim your posts.
The scriptures are not the Word of God
But a result of the Word.
Your accusations against me are baseless.
If you are stuck on CONTINUING like this.
Then knock yourself out, I can't do much with it.
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geisha779
Hi cman;
The word--Logos--is a title for Jesus--not us.
God is complete and satisfied in Himself--He doesn't need anything to complete Him. He is filled and overflowing within Himself.
We, on the otherhand, are complete in Him. We look for something outside of us to make us happy. The one true thing that satisfies us is God.
God can take joy in us--when we walk in truth. . . Jesus said "I have spoken these things to you so that my joy may be in you and your joy may be complete."
But, God's existence, His happiness, His glory, His wisdom, knowledge, perfection, in no way depend on us. We are the created.
His overflowing love is shared with us--so that we may be filled --that in turn brings praise and honor and glory to Him--We can do nothing but praise when we truly see Him-
We find our delight in God--not the other way around. We have this because God is good.
Isaiah 48:11
11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it,
for how should my name be profaned?
My glory I will not give to another.
Ephesians 1
6He predestined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace.
12We who first hoped in Christ have been predestined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory.
14The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of his glory.
2 Thessalonians 1:10
10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
Romans 11:36
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
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cman
Probably the biggest error of twi teachings,
is separating man from God.
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RainbowsGirl
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cman
to see that there is no degree of separation between god and men
neither shadow of turning nor changes will alter what has been done
is done and will be done, all now, from the beginning, yet largely unseen
not because of fault, but by design
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RainbowsGirl
TWI didn't write the HOLY BIBLE the Scriptures are HOLY they were in existence long before TWI... Cman The accusation that you make that they separated man from GOD is without foundation. We all were touched in a multiplicity of ways and degrees by TWI's errors and hurt by the TWI abuses but leaving the study and adherence to GOD and HIS WORD and WILL is an inexcusable excuse to cast into GOD's Face as a recompense:
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. !!!
Being angry with GOD is a reaction to the abuse of HIS WORD. HE GOD and HIS Word are not the abusers of anyone or anything, but in like manner as TWI's abuses were, GOD is now being abused by many that were abused; and to quote Geisha:
I do believe that GOD is now is the hands of angry sinners!!!
For as much as the abuses of TWI were cruel, harsh, horrifying, devastating, and debilitating what makes abusing GOD and HIS WORD any better than the abuses received through TWI's abusers or any other abusive system in this world. How do You then not escape being in the same category of abusing as TWI's abuser of GOD and mankind, by rejecting GOD's WORD and WILL for doctrines of men. Such audacity of thought!!! Can anyone judge what GOD does or does not excuse and excuse themselves from GOD's WILL and WORD, constantly bringing forward their TWI's or anyone elses sins without recognizing that GOD is not the problem and neither is HIS WORD and the answer is not Hewing out one's own doctrines and thinking and doing as one pleases. GOD alone is Judge!!!
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
I myself am far from perfect but I do not blame GOD for my sins or the sins of others!!! GOD could only be accountable if we were not given free will and we were merely HIS Puppets. Then all err would be HIS responsibility!!!
Edited by RainbowsGirlLink to comment
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cman
more baseless accusations..i don't need to defend
o well
Romans 9
there it is
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geisha779
Now this is not a dis cman, but an observation. . . .the above post is so cryptic it is not really something I can decipher.
What does that mean?
Not that it really matters. You have your theology and don't really seem interested in mine which I share in large part with RG.
BTW I too wonder. . . who is Magi??
Here is what I think. . . .
God is so wonderful. . . so majestic. . . eternal. . . just Glorious and overflowing with perfection. Really beyond my vocabulary.
It is a fallen world. Look around you--man and God are at enmity. We seek our own way.
But, the only way we are reconciled to God is by His Son Jesus Christ. It is repentance and faith in Jesus. . . .His finished work on the Cross. If we want . . . we can ask Him for true saving faith. He welcomes all. But, by no other name are we saved.
People can reject Him, deny Him, malign Him, revile Him, mock Him, it never changes who He is or that He is.
He showed us His love once and for all by sending His Son to die in our place. That is how He loved the world. It is enough. It is big enough to save us all if we will but believe on Him.
Jesus is the express image of God. . . the bible reveals Him. . . He is how God has communicated Himself to us.
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
I won't really say any more than that.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” 35 “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” 36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
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geisha779
RG,
I would be remiss if I did not tell you how moved and inspired I am by your passion and zeal for God. It does not go unappreciated.
He never said it would be easy, but that He would be with us.
It is evident He is with you and you with Him
I love that you are so well versed in scripture, but even more---you exhibit the love you have for God so eloquently!
Your heart is a blessing!
Geisha
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cman
hm,
found this recently
http://www.mslick.com/romans9.htm
a good example of what i'm not talking about
far from it actually...
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cman
post #'s 6 12 16 22 24 30 32
Are what I said.
I've not said anyone is wrong with their posts.
Nor will I force the matter. Different point of view.
Perspectives will change, new thoughts and changes.
There are things people go through in life.
Some of them are here in this chapter I believe.
And as we change, which is certain, some different factors in this chapter happen at one time or another in each individuals life. Perhaps not all of them are realized. But to some degree they are experienced.
There are some very good points in this chapter to which would help some to relax a bit.
I have no problem with other perspectives, Calvinists or whatever.
They just may not be mine today.
So....shoot.....I don't have a problem with anyone.
Peace.
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kimberly
Cman, you said, "There are things people go through in life." You are walking in the foot steps of Jesus Christ my brother.
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