The way I see it, if a person comes up to me and apologizes for something...I will forgive them in a heartbeat...but does twi seek forgiveness?...do they repent of the harm they did to so many people?...do they recant the wrong and destructives doctrines they taught people?...or do they still teach them? Has anyone here received an apology from twi for what they did to us?...hell no!
...twi is an ongoing evil. Rosie chortled that they still have $40 million in assets and they weren't worried about ABS...this is their retirement organization now. They're still living off the money that I gave them in the 70's and 80's...and they strut around in their arrogance. Forgive them?...let's think about this for a minute...if I forgive them for what they do on Monday, then I have to do it all over again on Tuesday...and Wed, etc.
...like Bob Dylan once said..."I'll stand on your grave til I'm sure that you're dead".
Since yesterday I've been thinking a little about what is commonly refered to as the massacre of the innocents. That was recorded as Herod killing all the male children less than two years old in the Bethlehem area. I think that if the villagers had the internet that there probably would exist a secular historical record to confirm it. Given TWI's efforts to quiet the truth, I think it to be very likely that Herod kept the lid on things, but that's another story.....
Imagine well meaning but dumb Rabbis going to Bethlehem and insisting that parents with dead children were to forgive Herod. I think that if I were one of those parents I might have held back my emotions for a while but if they persisted in troubling my wife and friends I may have eventually given into my emotions and literally beat them out of town. It is definitely possible I think. I haven't been in a real physical altercation for almost thiry years, so I am not too prone to violence but under the circumstances of losing a child like that it could certainly happen.
The record of Bethlehem states that they were not comforted in their loss too. But at least in that record I see a plain acknowledgement that for those who've been wounded that COMFORT IS THE NEED.
I think it is the same for many of us who lost our life's direction, families, friends, friend's or family's lives even, innocence or any other such things too. Especially when the man in charge of TWI and his more recently ruling children seem to be such scumbags.
Dear Mike,
Other scripture's have come to mind for me. To be honest the list of wickedness at TWI is so grievous that it may be a shorter list to find the problems that did not apply.....
Sorry it has taken me a long time to get back here. I really haven't come here a hell of a lot but as I said in my original post, I have been here from time to time (maybe three times a year?) for the last 5 years or so. And I guess I was responding to a general theme I seem to keep encountering here. I have a ton of stuff on my plate what with my second marriage, my trucking job and my musical endeavors, so most of my computer time is taken up trying to promote my band. I guess whenever I think about what became of something I thought was good, and have time to spend here, I come look. And on this the 30th anniversary of the day I first spoke in tongues, I guess I am awash in perspective and reflection.
I figured some of you would go off on me and some of you would see my heart, and that's what happened. I haven't been to a Way event since 1993 and recently found a good ex-Way fellowship in Virginia where nobody is having sex with anybody else's spouse and the love of the family is back in full swing, and have nothing to do with TWI or STFI. (although I did get "One Lord and One God." Tremendous piece of work!) So I have thankfully found some renewal after a lot of years of wilderness.
Now on to some things I saw in these responses.
As to the idea that people who behaved the way they did couldn't ever have belonged to Jesus, that is simply not a true statement. You don't get a renewed mind just because you were born again.
And as for Old Vic's plagiarism, granted, but so what? The Bible is in the public domain and teachers have to stand on each other's shoulders, and have been doing that for centuries.
I don't mean at all to dismiss anyone's pain. I just think there has to come a point where one lets go. Yes, you are to forgive even the most reprobate of those guys because that's what Scripture says to do. I know that has to be difficult if not humanly possible, but if you haven't given up on Christ in you (and you can stop dissing speaking in tongues, thank you) you can do it.
Look, I vent too. Just not about The Way. No point to it. But I have continued to see amazing things in my life when I have believed. Nothing like the Book of Acts, no. But my kids are living proof that miracles are available. The way I met my second wife was a flat out miracle. I have seen His hand at work in the progress my band has made as doors open for us for which I had given up prior to deciding to serve Him again. So maybe it's just co-incidence. I doubt it.
Thanks to the person who said they thought I had a tender heart. And no I wasn't baiting you guys, I just have come to the conclusion that healing is something one has to allow to happen. My wife has a lot of scars because of terrible things that happened to her many years ago and she can't get past them. I am grieved that she keeps putting herself through hell. So in a different way I'm watching what first hand what some of you are experiencing as leftovers from The Way days. I offer her comfort the best I can. But I can't set her free. She has to let go. I pray someday she, and you all who were so wounded, will do it.
I don't mean at all to dismiss anyone's pain. I just think there has to come a point where one lets go. Yes, you are to forgive even the most reprobate of those guys because that's what Scripture says to do. I know that has to be difficult if not humanly possible, but if you haven't given up on Christ in you (and you can stop dissing speaking in tongues, thank you) you can do it.
</snip>
sorry Mike, but you're speaking a scriptural commandment as if we're all bound to obey, and I'm sure you've noticed in the 5 years you've been dropping by that not all of us are christian. the debate on whether christians are required to forgive all wrongdoing is probably a doctrinal topic. and I didn't diss speaking in tongues: if it's good for you, fine. I just don't happen to believe that because vpw said it proves something, that it actually does. I'm not taking that shyster's word on anything. and since I've met non-christians who speak in tongues, it again doesn't mean anything to me to say that it's proof of anything.
<snip>
Look, I vent too. Just not about The Way. No point to it.
</snip>
tell you what... you don't judge me on what I vent about, and I won't judge you. you pronounce no point to venting about the way, so maybe there is no point FOR YOU. I pronounce there can be a great benefit to it. simply a difference of opinion, really.
I figured some of you would go off on me and some of you would see my heart, and that's what happened.
Those are the only two choices? We "see your heart" or we're "going off on you"? Some of us just disagree with your conclusions.
As to the idea that people who behaved the way they did couldn't ever have belonged to Jesus, that is simply not a true statement. You don't get a renewed mind just because you were born again.
You are using wayspeak, which may or may not be true. Many of us who are still Christians have quite a different take on what the bible says than we did in the TWI days. Simply not true? I think some of our conservative Christian could make a case otherwise.
And as for Old Vic's plagiarism, granted, but so what? The Bible is in the public domain and teachers have to stand on each other's shoulders, and have been doing that for centuries.
waysider said it best. Check out some old threads on plagiarism to see "so what?" What Wierwille did wasn't standing on anyone's shoulders, but theft.
I don't mean at all to dismiss anyone's pain. I just think there has to come a point where one lets go.
But you don't get to decide when that is.
Yes, you are to forgive even the most reprobate of those guys because that's what Scripture says to do.
Granted that "scripture" says that, but I am under no compulsion to obey it.
(and you can stop dissing speaking in tongues, thank you) you can do it.
Folks have differing opinions on SIT post-TWI. You can stop "dissing" difference of opinion, thank you.
Look, I vent too. Just not about The Way.
What? You haven't reached a point with that other stuff that you vent about that you can just let it go?
No point to it.
Not for you, perhaps you should re-read some of the posts that you so blithely dismissed as "going off on you". Maybe you'll see that for some, there is a point.
But my kids are living proof that miracles are available. The way I met my second wife was a flat out miracle. I have seen His hand at work in the progress my band has made as doors open for us for which I had given up prior to deciding to serve Him again. So maybe it's just co-incidence. I doubt it.
Perhaps you can expand for us about these miracles. We have had many threads where folks talk about miracles in their lives.
I pray someday she, and you all who were so wounded, will do it.
Please don't pray for me. I'll stop complaining when I decide to
OK I get it, I am just an insensitive brute, but please believe me that's not how I meant it. I also didn't mean to be judgmental about who vents and what they vent about. I haven't had to walk in your shoes.
I got out when it became evident that at the twig level and branch level leadership was expecting things of us that I knew were the opposite of the Word. And I figured out that if that was happening in my fellowship, it must be coming down from HQ. That was enough for my wife at the time, who pointed it out to me and I knew more Word than she did. It was disheartening. I didn't want to believe it. I didn't know anything about what was going on at HQ and in the Corps. I just knew the watchful eye of a Branch co-ordinator was a little too close to my wallet and my home. When I learned what was really going on in top leadership I was amazed and upset beyond words, but that came long after I left.
I thought they were so sweet too. Except when it came to money. We were all free from the law until it came to the tithe, which I never gave them because if we're free from the law that includes the tithe. So I gave what I was happy to give, no more. Because I thought the knowledge of the new birth was worth it. And to this day that's what I am about. But that wasn't good enough for my local leadership.
The reason I forgive those people is for myself, not for them. They no longer matter. But they indirectly played a big role in the breakup of my first marriage, so I could carry around that grudge if I chose to. What is sad is that they thought they were doing it for God. Now whether I could bring myself to forgive them if they had manipulated my wife into some sexual thing ... I could say I would, and I know I should, but would I? So I hope you understand that I don't condemn anyone who can't forgive them.
Go ahead and vent, and let it out. If they did it to you, I believe they deserve all the venting you can give them after what they did to you. I count myself fortunate it didn't happen to me. So since some of you mention them asking for forgiveness, I ask for yours because I have expressed my view in a way that upset you. I should have known better. Andas for disageements, I will try to take them in a constructive way. I should have read more before posting. Spare time is so hard to come by lately it seems, though, it is hard to say when I'll be back here so please bear with me if it takes me awhile.
I will be delving more into the other suggested threads. I guess there's nothing to get one involved in the forums like getting involved in the forums LOL!
Mike, you're a good guy. thanks for sharing your story. I rejoice with you that you've found freedom!
thanks for understanding the message. one of the things I love about GS is that we can disagree and discuss. in my quest for healing from waybrain, it's done wonders for my critical thinking skills :)
in some ways this is like a reunion of war vets. individual experiences may differ, but we all shared involvement in a common horror.
Gosh, how many times has a seemingly well meaning newcomer, posted Ephesian 4:31-32 here as a response, (reproof/correction) to what they perceive as our bitterness and unforgiveness towards TWI, VPW, LCM and their actions? Must have been hundreds.
Little or no forgiveness here. ? That's an eroneous assumption. What is forgiveness?
Mike, does forgiveness preclude the discussion and or exposure of evil ? By your reckoning it would seem to. I suspect that you have confused "forgiveness" with sticking one's head in the sand. You have possibly confused forgiveness with "letting it ride" or some other such notion that suggests that bringing up the past is somehow unforgiving and a sign of bitterness. Not so.
Ephesians was written to a legitimate "church" founded by Paul, (a legitimate Man of God"). These verses must be understood in that historical context. In contrast TWI was probably not a legitimate "church" founded by a legitimate Man of God. TWI was corrupt at the top from early on.
While the engouragement of Paul to the Ehesians to "forgive one another" is certainly good, I do not think it applies so neatly to the TWI situation. It may not fit like a "hand in a glove". I doubt that the top leader in Ephesus was boinking new young converts in his private tent. I doubt that the top leaders in Ephesus were swapping wives or coercing married women to have sex with them. I doubt that Paul copied the writings of others and claimed that he wrote them as God dictated. I doubt that the "Church" at Ephesus was anything like TWI at all.
Without making this a bible discussion or verse quoting session , I'll just say that the scriptures are prettly clear about how we are to view people claiming to be men of God and using that position to do evil.
You posted:
"I don't think I would be reading the continual rehashing of all the pain, the constant blaming, the incessant vitriol, the never-ending condemnation and self-condemnation, the two decades of failure to cope, if there were some forgiveness. You guys can rise above it. You all still can speak in tongues. Christ still resides in you. What pleasure or satisfaction can there possibly be in staying in the frame of mind I read here?.
How presumptious, ignorant and arrogant a statement that is. No one here seeks pleasure in the "frame of mind" you have eroneously projected upon the posters here. No more so than you seek pleasure and comfort in your "holier-than-thou" effort to save us all from our "incessant vitriol". We don't need a savior here.
What you deem "incessant vitriol" is not bitterness at all. My guess is that you just can't stand to hear anything bad concerning V.P. Wierweille, so you confuse or misrepresent historical and factual discussion as "incessant vitriol" and you whitewash VPW's plagairism as having "no point" . You mistake the eschewal of evil as "condemnation".
Mike, I see more "vitriol" coming from you than from all of the posters here.
May I suggest you rethink things a bit? Things here are not what you think they are.
Gosh, how many times has a seemingly well meaning newcomer, posted Ephesian 4:31-32 here as a response, (reproof/correction) to what they perceive as our bitterness and unforgiveness towards TWI, VPW, LCM and their actions? Must have been hundreds.
Little or no forgiveness here. ? That's an eroneous assumption. What is forgiveness?
Mike, does forgiveness preclude the discussion and or exposure of evil ? By your reckoning it would seem to. I suspect that you have confused "forgiveness" with sticking one's head in the sand. You have possibly confused forgiveness with "letting it ride" or some other such notion that suggests that bringing up the past is somehow unforgiving and a sign of bitterness. Not so.
Ephesians was written to a legitimate "church" founded by Paul, (a legitimate Man of God"). These verses must be understood in that historical context. In contrast TWI was probably not a legitimate "church" founded by a legitimate Man of God. TWI was corrupt at the top from early on.
While the engouragement of Paul to the Ehesians to "forgive one another" is certainly good, I do not think it applies so neatly to the TWI situation. It may not fit like a "hand in a glove". I doubt that the top leader in Ephesus was boinking new young converts in his private tent. I doubt that the top leaders in Ephesus were swapping wives or coercing married women to have sex with them. I doubt that Paul copied the writings of others and claimed that he wrote them as God dictated. I doubt that the "Church" at Ephesus was anything like TWI at all.
Without making this a bible discussion or verse quoting session , I'll just say that the scriptures are prettly clear about how we are to view people claiming to be men of God and using that position to do evil.
You posted:
"I don't think I would be reading the continual rehashing of all the pain, the constant blaming, the incessant vitriol, the never-ending condemnation and self-condemnation, the two decades of failure to cope, if there were some forgiveness. You guys can rise above it. You all still can speak in tongues. Christ still resides in you. What pleasure or satisfaction can there possibly be in staying in the frame of mind I read here?.
How presumptious, ignorant and arrogant a statement that is. No one here seeks pleasure in the "frame of mind" you have eroneously projected upon the posters here. No more so than you seek pleasure and comfort in your "holier-than-thou" effort to save us all from our "incessant vitriol". We don't need a savior here.
What you deem "incessant vitriol" is not bitterness at all. My guess is that you just can't stand to hear anything bad concerning V.P. Wierweille, so you confuse or misrepresent historical and factual discussion as "incessant vitriol" and you whitewash VPW's plagairism as having "no point" . You mistake the eschewal of evil as "condemnation".
Mike, I see more "vitriol" coming from you than from all of the posters here.
May I suggest you rethink things a bit? Things here are not what you think they are.
Cheers
Goey, I am rethinking. I'm past not being able to stand hearing bad things about VPW, long past it. Give me a little time. I have apoligized once, I hope that is enough. My tone is not meant to be vitriolic. Sometimes reading something intensely personal in print sounds in the mind's ear of the reader to be other than it is intended. Apparently that has happened to me. And I can see by the replies it has happened to some here too. But give me a little time, as I said. I don't feel holier than thou, and I did not mean to come off that way.
Goey, I am rethinking. I'm past not being able to stand hearing bad things about VPW, long past it. Give me a little time. I have apoligized once, I hope that is enough. My tone is not meant to be vitriolic. Sometimes reading something intensely personal in print sounds in the mind's ear of the reader to be other than it is intended. Apparently that has happened to me. And I can see by the replies it has happened to some here too. But give me a little time, as I said. I don't feel holier than thou, and I did not mean to come off that way.
Hi Mike... I think you would be surprised at how kind people here have been in replying to you... and Yes you are right it is very easy to misinterpret what people are writting in a forum... any way forgiveness the kind yu are talking about is of course a process, for everyone. Gooey made some good points though and I think you may find that as you spend a bit more time here you begin to really address some of the issues you have set aside. (As I am doing)
I hope you come back more and you may want to read in the thread on forgiveness there is some powerful stuff in there and if you really want to find out what was going on at the top read some of the articles on the main page not just the forums It will give you a new perspective on your life and perhaps some of the stuff you learned at TWI and maybe bring a bit of understanding about your wifes dealing with her issues from her childhood you mentioned.
Any way as I said before welcome and I hope you continue to post
Any way again I say welcome to the forum from one new person to another.. and d
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GrouchoMarxJr
The way I see it, if a person comes up to me and apologizes for something...I will forgive them in a heartbeat...but does twi seek forgiveness?...do they repent of the harm they did to so many people?...do they recant the wrong and destructives doctrines they taught people?...or do they still teach them? Has anyone here received an apology from twi for what they did to us?...hell no!
...twi is an ongoing evil. Rosie chortled that they still have $40 million in assets and they weren't worried about ABS...this is their retirement organization now. They're still living off the money that I gave them in the 70's and 80's...and they strut around in their arrogance. Forgive them?...let's think about this for a minute...if I forgive them for what they do on Monday, then I have to do it all over again on Tuesday...and Wed, etc.
...like Bob Dylan once said..."I'll stand on your grave til I'm sure that you're dead".
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now I see
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JeffSjo
Since yesterday I've been thinking a little about what is commonly refered to as the massacre of the innocents. That was recorded as Herod killing all the male children less than two years old in the Bethlehem area. I think that if the villagers had the internet that there probably would exist a secular historical record to confirm it. Given TWI's efforts to quiet the truth, I think it to be very likely that Herod kept the lid on things, but that's another story.....
Imagine well meaning but dumb Rabbis going to Bethlehem and insisting that parents with dead children were to forgive Herod. I think that if I were one of those parents I might have held back my emotions for a while but if they persisted in troubling my wife and friends I may have eventually given into my emotions and literally beat them out of town. It is definitely possible I think. I haven't been in a real physical altercation for almost thiry years, so I am not too prone to violence but under the circumstances of losing a child like that it could certainly happen.
The record of Bethlehem states that they were not comforted in their loss too. But at least in that record I see a plain acknowledgement that for those who've been wounded that COMFORT IS THE NEED.
I think it is the same for many of us who lost our life's direction, families, friends, friend's or family's lives even, innocence or any other such things too. Especially when the man in charge of TWI and his more recently ruling children seem to be such scumbags.
Dear Mike,
Other scripture's have come to mind for me. To be honest the list of wickedness at TWI is so grievous that it may be a shorter list to find the problems that did not apply.....
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Twinky
Good post, Jeff.
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potato
I second that.
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miketheorganist
Sorry it has taken me a long time to get back here. I really haven't come here a hell of a lot but as I said in my original post, I have been here from time to time (maybe three times a year?) for the last 5 years or so. And I guess I was responding to a general theme I seem to keep encountering here. I have a ton of stuff on my plate what with my second marriage, my trucking job and my musical endeavors, so most of my computer time is taken up trying to promote my band. I guess whenever I think about what became of something I thought was good, and have time to spend here, I come look. And on this the 30th anniversary of the day I first spoke in tongues, I guess I am awash in perspective and reflection.
I figured some of you would go off on me and some of you would see my heart, and that's what happened. I haven't been to a Way event since 1993 and recently found a good ex-Way fellowship in Virginia where nobody is having sex with anybody else's spouse and the love of the family is back in full swing, and have nothing to do with TWI or STFI. (although I did get "One Lord and One God." Tremendous piece of work!) So I have thankfully found some renewal after a lot of years of wilderness.
Now on to some things I saw in these responses.
As to the idea that people who behaved the way they did couldn't ever have belonged to Jesus, that is simply not a true statement. You don't get a renewed mind just because you were born again.
And as for Old Vic's plagiarism, granted, but so what? The Bible is in the public domain and teachers have to stand on each other's shoulders, and have been doing that for centuries.
I don't mean at all to dismiss anyone's pain. I just think there has to come a point where one lets go. Yes, you are to forgive even the most reprobate of those guys because that's what Scripture says to do. I know that has to be difficult if not humanly possible, but if you haven't given up on Christ in you (and you can stop dissing speaking in tongues, thank you) you can do it.
Look, I vent too. Just not about The Way. No point to it. But I have continued to see amazing things in my life when I have believed. Nothing like the Book of Acts, no. But my kids are living proof that miracles are available. The way I met my second wife was a flat out miracle. I have seen His hand at work in the progress my band has made as doors open for us for which I had given up prior to deciding to serve Him again. So maybe it's just co-incidence. I doubt it.
Thanks to the person who said they thought I had a tender heart. And no I wasn't baiting you guys, I just have come to the conclusion that healing is something one has to allow to happen. My wife has a lot of scars because of terrible things that happened to her many years ago and she can't get past them. I am grieved that she keeps putting herself through hell. So in a different way I'm watching what first hand what some of you are experiencing as leftovers from The Way days. I offer her comfort the best I can. But I can't set her free. She has to let go. I pray someday she, and you all who were so wounded, will do it.
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waysider
Mike
Regarding the plagiarism:
You might want to do a search here for more info.
It's a very deep and involved subject
(He even stole Maggie Muggins, Johnny Jump-up and Snowball Pete)
Sometimes people get angry and vent their feelings now because we were never allowed to express any emotions while we were in.
Kind of a delayed reaction, ya know?
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potato
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Oakspear
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miketheorganist
OK I get it, I am just an insensitive brute, but please believe me that's not how I meant it. I also didn't mean to be judgmental about who vents and what they vent about. I haven't had to walk in your shoes.
I got out when it became evident that at the twig level and branch level leadership was expecting things of us that I knew were the opposite of the Word. And I figured out that if that was happening in my fellowship, it must be coming down from HQ. That was enough for my wife at the time, who pointed it out to me and I knew more Word than she did. It was disheartening. I didn't want to believe it. I didn't know anything about what was going on at HQ and in the Corps. I just knew the watchful eye of a Branch co-ordinator was a little too close to my wallet and my home. When I learned what was really going on in top leadership I was amazed and upset beyond words, but that came long after I left.
I thought they were so sweet too. Except when it came to money. We were all free from the law until it came to the tithe, which I never gave them because if we're free from the law that includes the tithe. So I gave what I was happy to give, no more. Because I thought the knowledge of the new birth was worth it. And to this day that's what I am about. But that wasn't good enough for my local leadership.
The reason I forgive those people is for myself, not for them. They no longer matter. But they indirectly played a big role in the breakup of my first marriage, so I could carry around that grudge if I chose to. What is sad is that they thought they were doing it for God. Now whether I could bring myself to forgive them if they had manipulated my wife into some sexual thing ... I could say I would, and I know I should, but would I? So I hope you understand that I don't condemn anyone who can't forgive them.
Go ahead and vent, and let it out. If they did it to you, I believe they deserve all the venting you can give them after what they did to you. I count myself fortunate it didn't happen to me. So since some of you mention them asking for forgiveness, I ask for yours because I have expressed my view in a way that upset you. I should have known better. Andas for disageements, I will try to take them in a constructive way. I should have read more before posting. Spare time is so hard to come by lately it seems, though, it is hard to say when I'll be back here so please bear with me if it takes me awhile.
I will be delving more into the other suggested threads. I guess there's nothing to get one involved in the forums like getting involved in the forums LOL!
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waysider
Mike
You don't need to apologize.
You didn't do anything wrong.
All you did was express your opinion based on what you knew.
That's what we do here.
We express opinions.
That's something we couldn't do in The Way without some kind of fallout.
Say whatever it is you feel you need to say.
Some will agree with you. Some will disagree.
As long as you follow the rules on the home page, your presence will be welcomed here.
(Speaking only for myself, of course.)
waysider
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potato
Mike, you're a good guy. thanks for sharing your story. I rejoice with you that you've found freedom!
thanks for understanding the message. one of the things I love about GS is that we can disagree and discuss. in my quest for healing from waybrain, it's done wonders for my critical thinking skills :)
in some ways this is like a reunion of war vets. individual experiences may differ, but we all shared involvement in a common horror.
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Goey
Gosh, how many times has a seemingly well meaning newcomer, posted Ephesian 4:31-32 here as a response, (reproof/correction) to what they perceive as our bitterness and unforgiveness towards TWI, VPW, LCM and their actions? Must have been hundreds.
Little or no forgiveness here. ? That's an eroneous assumption. What is forgiveness?
Mike, does forgiveness preclude the discussion and or exposure of evil ? By your reckoning it would seem to. I suspect that you have confused "forgiveness" with sticking one's head in the sand. You have possibly confused forgiveness with "letting it ride" or some other such notion that suggests that bringing up the past is somehow unforgiving and a sign of bitterness. Not so.
Ephesians was written to a legitimate "church" founded by Paul, (a legitimate Man of God"). These verses must be understood in that historical context. In contrast TWI was probably not a legitimate "church" founded by a legitimate Man of God. TWI was corrupt at the top from early on.
While the engouragement of Paul to the Ehesians to "forgive one another" is certainly good, I do not think it applies so neatly to the TWI situation. It may not fit like a "hand in a glove". I doubt that the top leader in Ephesus was boinking new young converts in his private tent. I doubt that the top leaders in Ephesus were swapping wives or coercing married women to have sex with them. I doubt that Paul copied the writings of others and claimed that he wrote them as God dictated. I doubt that the "Church" at Ephesus was anything like TWI at all.
Without making this a bible discussion or verse quoting session , I'll just say that the scriptures are prettly clear about how we are to view people claiming to be men of God and using that position to do evil.
You posted:
"I don't think I would be reading the continual rehashing of all the pain, the constant blaming, the incessant vitriol, the never-ending condemnation and self-condemnation, the two decades of failure to cope, if there were some forgiveness. You guys can rise above it. You all still can speak in tongues. Christ still resides in you. What pleasure or satisfaction can there possibly be in staying in the frame of mind I read here?.
How presumptious, ignorant and arrogant a statement that is. No one here seeks pleasure in the "frame of mind" you have eroneously projected upon the posters here. No more so than you seek pleasure and comfort in your "holier-than-thou" effort to save us all from our "incessant vitriol". We don't need a savior here.
What you deem "incessant vitriol" is not bitterness at all. My guess is that you just can't stand to hear anything bad concerning V.P. Wierweille, so you confuse or misrepresent historical and factual discussion as "incessant vitriol" and you whitewash VPW's plagairism as having "no point" . You mistake the eschewal of evil as "condemnation".
Mike, I see more "vitriol" coming from you than from all of the posters here.
May I suggest you rethink things a bit? Things here are not what you think they are.
Cheers
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miketheorganist
Goey, I am rethinking. I'm past not being able to stand hearing bad things about VPW, long past it. Give me a little time. I have apoligized once, I hope that is enough. My tone is not meant to be vitriolic. Sometimes reading something intensely personal in print sounds in the mind's ear of the reader to be other than it is intended. Apparently that has happened to me. And I can see by the replies it has happened to some here too. But give me a little time, as I said. I don't feel holier than thou, and I did not mean to come off that way.
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leafytwiglet
Hi Mike... I think you would be surprised at how kind people here have been in replying to you... and Yes you are right it is very easy to misinterpret what people are writting in a forum... any way forgiveness the kind yu are talking about is of course a process, for everyone. Gooey made some good points though and I think you may find that as you spend a bit more time here you begin to really address some of the issues you have set aside. (As I am doing)
I hope you come back more and you may want to read in the thread on forgiveness there is some powerful stuff in there and if you really want to find out what was going on at the top read some of the articles on the main page not just the forums It will give you a new perspective on your life and perhaps some of the stuff you learned at TWI and maybe bring a bit of understanding about your wifes dealing with her issues from her childhood you mentioned.
Any way as I said before welcome and I hope you continue to post
Any way again I say welcome to the forum from one new person to another.. and d
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