The Whore of Babylon

[geisha779]

Have you ever in your life commanded the morning

or assigned the dawn its place, so it may seize the edges of the earthand shake the wicked out of it? The earth is changed as clay is by a seal;[its hills] stand out like [the folds of] a garment.

Light is withheld from the wicked,and the arm raised [in violence] is broken. Have you traveled to the sources of the sea or walked in the depths of the oceans?

Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Have you seen the gates of death's shadow?

Have you comprehended the extent of the earth? Tell [Me], if you know all this.

Where is the road to the home of light?[Do you know] where darkness lives, so you can lead it back to its border?Are you familiar with the paths to its home?

Don't you know? You were already born; you have lived so long!

Have you entered the [place] where the snow is stored?Or have you seen the storehouses of hail,

which I hold in reserve for times of trouble, for the day of warfare and battle?

What road leads to [the place] where light is dispersed?

[Where is the source of] the east wind that spreads across the earth? Who cuts a channel for the flooding rain

or clears the way for lightning, to bring rain on an uninhabited land,

[on] a desert with no human life, to satisfy the parched wastelandand cause the grass to sprout?

Does the rain have a father? Who fathered the drops of dew? Whose womb did the ice come from?

Who gave birth to the frost of heaven when water becomes as hard as stone, and the surface of the watery depths is frozen?

Can you fasten the chains of the Pleiadesor loosen the belt of Orion?

Can you bring out the constellations in their seasonand lead the Bear and her cubs?

Do you know the laws of heaven? Can you impose its authority on earth?

Can you command the cloudsso that a flood of water covers you?

Can you send out lightning bolts, and they go? Do they report to you: "Here we are"?

Who put wisdom in the heart or gave the mind understanding? Who has the wisdom to number the clouds?

Or who can tilt the water jars of heaven when the dust hardens like cast metal and the clods [of dirt] stick together? Can you hunt prey for a lionessor satisfy the appetite of young lions when they crouch in their dens

and lie in wait within their lairs?

Who provides the raven's food when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food?

and on it goes, but poor Job. . . . He has to answer all this!

Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct [Him]?

Let him who argues with God give an answer.

3 Then Job answered the LORD:

4 I am so insignificant. How can I answer You?

I place my hand over my mouth.

5 I have spoken once, and I will not reply;

twice, but [now] I can add nothing.

6 Then the LORD answered Job from the whirlwind:

7 Get ready to answer Me like a man;

When I question you, you will inform Me.

8 Would you really challenge My justice?

Would you declare Me guilty to justify yourself?

9 Do you have an arm like God's?

Can you thunder with a voice like His?

10 Adorn yourself with majesty and splendor,

and clothe yourself with honor and glory.

11 Unleash your raging anger;

look on every proud person and humiliate him.

12 Look on every proud person and humble him;

trample the wicked where they stand.

13 Hide them together in the dust;

imprison them in the grave.

14 Then I will confess to you

that your own right hand can deliver you.

Edited December 31, 2008 by geisha779

[cman]

and it seems weve been counting with Zeros for about as long as we've been playing with wheels and fire

kind of interesting how 'taboo' it was with certain times and cultures

it is, but not, they say, yet it has it's value giving qualities.....

seems familiar...

zero

just to see what is not, and is- giving

[geisha779]

No taboos anymore. . . funny thing is. . . God never changes. . . and no where does He refer to Himself as zero.

Then Job replied to the LORD:

2 I know that You can do anything

and no plan of Yours can be thwarted.

3 [You asked,] "Who is this who conceals [My] counsel with ignorance?"

Surely I spoke about things I did not understand,

things too wonderful for me to know.

4 [You said,] "Listen now, and I will speak.

When I question you, you will inform Me."

5 I had heard rumors about You,

but now my eyes have seen You.

6 Therefore I take back [my words]

and repent in dust and ashes.

[Tom]

it was never about Humpty breaking

...but falling

It was never either about Humpty's breaking nor his falling, but about man's utter inability to reconstruct life by all his might and intelligence.

Humpty played with deconstructing man's codes to show them as completely arbitrary, idiotic, and without meaning - the real question being who is master.

[cman]

and no where does He refer to Himself as zero

why do you think that is what i said?

i didn't.

[Tom]

that said...in an attempt to rerail my hypertextual self

There you go, thinking again:).

[geisha779]

why do you think that is what i said?

i didn't.

Hey cman

No you didn't and I got that in there at your expense. I guess I am just somewhat amazed by this thread.

I am used to you and even agree with you sometimes, but as a Christian, I find this thread and the search for God beyond the scriptures somewhat futile.

That is the bible, I am refering to. . . I do think there is some truth in other books, but since I follow Christ. . . I believe Him to be the truth.

He is everywhere and He is beyond enough, as He is. . . .

This discussion is surely not for me. . . :)

No you didn't say that.

[Tom]

This discussion is surely not for me. . . :)

Sorry to hear that geisha, but I understand. I don't know if I'll be here much, but, if I am, I'll miss you & your contributions which I've appreciated.

[geisha779]

Sorry to hear that geisha, but I understand. I don't know if I'll be here much, but, if I am, I'll miss you & your contributions which I've appreciated.

Hey Tom

Right back at ya. . . you have made me smile several times now. . . :) Things that make you go hmmmmm right?

Maybe we will meet up in a thread about the God of the bible. . . Jehovah

Here are a few that I know you will appreciate. . . from God's lips to hearing ears. . .

Jeremiah 20:9

9 And if I say, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name, then there is in my heart as it were a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I am weary with forbearing, and I cannot contain.

1 Samuel 12:21

21 and turn ye not aside; for then would ye go after vain things which cannot profit nor deliver, for they are vain.

Jeremiah 23:29

29 Is not my word like fire? saith Jehovah; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

and. . . . Ezekiel 22:28

[DrWearWord]

In the beginning was zero, and zero was with God and zero was God. :)

Isaiah 48:6.Thou hast heard , see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things , and thou didst not know them.

7.They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say , Behold, I knew them.

8.Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened : for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously , and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

Comment: Is zero a transgressor from the womb of numbers? :)

[sirguessalot]

for the record...

i, for one, love the Bible. it is my most sacred text in life, and will likely be til the day i die

...and i feel the book of Job is amazingly rich and widely misunderstood...and there is much that i could say about that book that will likely be aggressively rejected by many other christians

...and i love the God of the Bible...as i have come to understand Him (and Love)

...and i also consider my self to be a devoted follower of Christ...as i have come to understand such

but the overall sense i get from some reactions to expressions of more unitive and nondual perspectives of God, Christ and the Bible is "i dont understand what you are saying...therefore you must be delusional and in error"

well...i wish i knew how to respond to that in a productive way

but i dont...so i guess the rapid stream of misunderstandings will keep piling up

...

dww,

i'll try to find em...but ive seen ancient Hindu scripture and art that depicts divinity as a half-male/half-female

...amazingly similar to the Gemini Cocktails artwork you posted

Edited January 1, 2009 by sirguessalot

[cman]

hm, yeah in a productive way

presented a balance

a 'place holder' to open what's in plain sight

it's still there....other words can be used

have a great evening bro,

i heard ya.....

[geisha779]

for the record...

i, for one, love the Bible. it is my most sacred text in life, and will likely be til the day i die

...and i feel the book of Job is amazingly rich and widely misunderstood...and there is much that i could say about that book that will likely be aggressively rejected by many other christians

...and i love the God of the Bible...as i have come to understand Him (and Love)

...and i also consider my self to be a devoted follower of Christ...as i have come to understand such

but the overall sense i get from some reactions to expressions of more unitive and nondual perspectives of God, Christ and the Bible is "i dont understand what you are saying...therefore you must be delusional and in error"

well...i wish i knew how to respond to that in a productive way

but i dont...so i guess the rapid stream of misunderstandings will keep piling up

...

dww,

i'll try to find em...but ive seen ancient Hindu scripture and art that depicts divinity as a half-male/half-female

...amazingly similar to the Gemini Cocktails artwork you posted

Well, sirguessalot. . . I just had to respond to this. . . after a very good chuckle.

Your "overall sense" was interesting to say the least, as was your very "productive" assumption.

You don't get "it" THEREFORE you are saying it is wrong. Is that so?

Wow. . . . you really have that whole truth thing cornered. After your assumption. . . your very own assumption. . . from you. . . that you wrote. . . .came from your thought process. . . you decide you can't respond to your own words and thoughts productively??

Why not??

Can't imagine how misunderstandings would pile up with a post like that.

Here is what I am reading. . . . this is what I ASSUME it means. . . and I cannot respond to my own assumptions productively.

Carry on. . . what is God today? We have already implied Jesus was a gay man. We have God assigned zero. The word othodoxy has been totally misused. . . . and we are breaking down scripture with "Reason."

Can't wait to see what is next. . . and all this is to justify . . . what? A search for. . . who?

The most glaring words in your post. . . for me. . . were "and i love the God of the Bible...as i have come to understand Him (and Love)"

As you have come to understand Him. . . well, as He is, might serve enlightenment better than any abberant understanding that you place above the reality of God revealed through scripture. And BTW, I have no problem with natural theology. . . as long as it does not run contrary to the revelation of God through scripture. Through Jesus.

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.”

His eternal Power and divine nature.

The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. Their measuring line goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world

God's authoritative voice is evident. The same God of the bible you love. BTW, there are some GREAT teachings on Job, but if your thoughts would be agressively REJECTED by Christians. . . maybe you should rethink them. No?

[OperaBuff]

The whore of Babylon? I thought Madonna was in Scotland.

[cman]

whores hump anything they can

where ever they can

for self gratification

and an illusion of power

[sirguessalot]

sorry Geisha

seems i am as poor a writer

as you are a reader

when i said i got a sense of

"i dont understand what you are saying...therefore you must be delusional and in error"

i was NOT referring to how i respond to that which is mysterious

but how most people seem to respond to that which is mysterious

like...

he dont understand her...so she must be ____

she dont understand him...so he must be ____

we dont understand them...so they must be ____

etc...

i would go as far as to put it near the root of much human conflict

...including this little tiff

but if your thoughts would be agressively REJECTED by Christians. . . maybe you should rethink them. No?

are you implying that you will stop personally harrassing me with false humor, sarcastic insults, vile rhetoric, spastic disinformation, and sloppy social skills if i recant and join your group?

or that some will stop reacting in general if i recant and join your/their group?

:blink:

if so..

then No

but if there is anything i can do that will help you stop...i am all ears

[Tom]

whores hump anything they can

where ever they can

for self gratification

and an illusion of power

How do you know? I don't think whores are born whores, so I would think becoming a whore would be a gradual thing.

[cman]

There's nothing unusual about knowing what's in your own self.

That which is common to all.

So the question 'How would you know?'.

Can be answered on your own.

As in 'How would you find out?'.

If you want to know. It's your question to answer.

Not mine.

If I was to answer, then why would anyone go by my answers and not their own.

I don't expect anyone to go by anything I say.

But I can put forth what I know.

It can be considered or not by others.

That isn't my choice.

I will also add -

'self gratification, regardless of the well being of others'

or 'without any thought or consideration of the consequences to themselves or others'

[geisha779]

sorry Geisha

seems i am as poor a writer

as you are a reader

when i said i got a sense of

"i dont understand what you are saying...therefore you must be delusional and in error"

i was NOT referring to how i respond to that which is mysterious

but how most people seem to respond to that which is mysterious

like...

he dont understand her...so she must be ____

she dont understand him...so he must be ____

we dont understand them...so they must be ____

etc...

i would go as far as to put it near the root of much human conflict

...including this little tiff

are you implying that you will stop personally harrassing me with false humor, sarcastic insults, vile rhetoric, spastic disinformation, and sloppy social skills if i recant and join your group?

or that some will stop reacting in general if i recant and join your/their group?

:blink:

if so..

then No

but if there is anything i can do that will help you stop...i am all ears

Don't overreact too much. Seems to me, if a majority of actual Christ following Christians----who have a personal relationship with Jesus. . . . meaning know Him. . . . have the Holy Spirit indwelling. . . . true believers. . . . would reject your thoughts on Job. . . wouldn't that be a big heads up to rethink it?

Honest question. Seems to me. . . . call me crazy. . . we share a common faith as Christians. . . Now, I can see questioning something. . . but rejecting it?? Pretty strong language there.

As for the first part of my post. Reread it. . . it stands.

Like I said. . . carry on and discuss away.

I was hoping to share with you some of my faith, but I sense it is too Orthodox for you. All I posted was scripture for goodness sake. Very little commentary. . . and you make assumptions. . . it was scripture. . . from the bible. . . your sacred text. . .

And cman. . . that post about a whore. . . vulgar.

[sirguessalot]

to add

for what its worth

i think/feel/believe/wonder if

that "the harlot" is also as ultimately innocent in the eyes of God

as the world is that would bury her in a pile of rocks

in spite of the smorgasborde of crimes

and that the voice of ambiguity is a specific angel with a specific message

but as an angel among a choir...necessary, but not sufficient

odd...how with the rise of post-modernity over the past century

this historically marginalized voice of ambiguity went mainstream for the first time

the gift was a capacity for radical universal social and civil inclusion

but as each "the angels" seemed to point out...every gift has a liability

and each liability is also an opportunity to learn and be rewarded

and while the liabilities of post-modern ambiguity are specific

but also essentially rooted in the same as the liabilities of any perspective

...the illusion of being final

[Bramble]

Innocent in the eyes of God--In real life 'whores' are often victims of sexual abuse as children, or victims of sexual attacks or drug addicts/alchoholics or poverty stricken with few choices. How different were the whores in Bible times than now?

[cman]

Not much, I'd say Bramble.

Even so, progressing past that would yield a unique individual with a capacity to see some things that others may not.

And possibly be able to communicate them, in time.

To communicate-not to replay or relive or 'my story'-but using words of a nature that inspire thought in another.

And not so much about one subject or another.

But a more broader perspective, or simply different.

And yes the innocence would be quite realized.