So do we blame God for what people do with the Bible? Well, if it is done in God’s name, according to God's word, it is written, then who else do we blame? God couldn’t just write the Bible plain for plain folk. No he had to include all this mystery, legal/faith ambiguity, endless genealogies for a sexless God.
So we are to study and rightly divide ambiguity? Like, God is our father, and Jesus Christ is "the son of God", but there is no sex in heaven…
…and the poor holy spirit has no mind of its/her own…
God does not give me more spirit than someone else, but he showed them more, and God is no respecter of persons.
You can blame God if you want to, that is your choice. The bible has also been used to preach the gospel of Christ and reach millions with God's merciful message of salvation.
There are people that RISK their lives smuggling bibles into other countries. One tattered bible shared between villages--pieces of paper with parts of the Holy Scriptures on them. . . cherished.
I guess it is perspective. One man's Holy Word of God is another man's toilet paper.
Read it. A true story. A man cleaning latrines to get the precious word of God. . . cleaning it off after another used it for toilet paper.A prisoner in a communist prison camp.
He found no ambiguity in the scripture. He found comfort and hope.
If the revelation of God in the bible is to be attacked. . . due to its obscurities and mysteries. . . then I suggest the science being used to ascribe God to zero be also questioned.
That seems to dwell in the land of obscurity, mystery, and theory far more than the revelation of God through scripture.
For someone claiming reason as their guide. . . some consistent logic would be good.
Only The Holy Spirit can create. So Zero always can be considered also as one because of Zero's unique inherent potential to create one. One is the image of Zero.
Colossians 1:15 KJV
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Comment: Zero creates time.
0 = 1-1 (living sacrifice)
Then we are one with Zero (eternity), Zero is both finite and infinite. Zero is infinite because Zero can always create time. Zero is finite because Zero is the beginning and the end.
The invisible Omni God is Zero as Elohim, and One as Jehovah. In the beginning Zero created One, and one comprised of two, heaven/earth, male/female… ambiguity.
Elohim is the third word in the Hebrew text of the Bible.
Ephesians 3:18 KJV
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Comment: So we place our foundation upon an invisible God, upon a point the has neither depth nor height, nor form... Sounds like zero to me.
Ephesians 2:21 KJV
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Comment: Zero is the point within the temple where the entire master plans were drawn upon. Zero is the spirit within the temple, zero is the vector origin where all other lines of dimension are drawn from. "Staked to Zero." :)
For someone claiming to break down scripture with reason . . . well you gotta wonder here??
Although I don't think blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is still possible. . . I could be wrong. Given that the Pharisees saw the miracles that Jesus did in the power of the Holy Spirit and still called Him demon possessed. . . probably not possible today.
When TWI called the name of Jesus a devil spirit. . . meaning that the Jesus worshiped in the church and basically by the rest of Christendom. . . was actually a devil spirit. . . that was serious blasphemy. They were actually calling Jesus a demon. TWI was often blasphemous. . . in their teaching of the bible. . . . their worship of it.
There are many definitions of blasphemy. Here is one.
blaspheme - speak of in an irreverent or impious manner; "blaspheme God"
God is Holy and to be praised and worshiped. . . and every knee WILL bow. . . we can run our mouths all day long about God now. . . who He is. . . who He is not. . .
It is just good to keep in the back of your head that you will give an account to Him of which you speak.
The bible is full of. . . consider this. . . . consider that.
Sometimes it is really good to consider what He so graciously asks us to. . . .You have to wonder what all our "Opinions" will be worth when we bow before Him??
For someone claiming to break down scripture with reason . . . well you gotta wonder here??
Although I don't think blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is still possible. . . I could be wrong. Given that the Pharisees saw the miracles that Jesus did in the power of the Holy Spirit and still called Him demon possessed. . . probably not possible today.
When TWI called the name of Jesus a devil spirit. . . meaning that the Jesus worshiped in the church and basically by the rest of Christendom. . . was actually a devil spirit. . . that was serious blasphemy. They were actually calling Jesus a demon. TWI was often blasphemous. . . in their teaching of the bible. . . . their worship of it.
There are many definitions of blasphemy. Here is one.
blaspheme - speak of in an irreverent or impious manner; "blaspheme God"
God is Holy and to be praised and worshiped. . . and every knee WILL bow. . . we can run our mouths all day long about God now. . . who He is. . . who He is not. . .
It is just good to keep in the back of your head that you will give an account to Him of which you speak.
The bible is full of. . . consider this. . . . consider that.
Sometimes it is really good to consider what He so graciously asks us to. . . .You have to wonder what all our "Opinions" will be worth when we bow before Him??
I guess we will all just have to run our mouths until that day. :)
The scriptures tell us to reverently respect God, but not to fear God.
God knoweth the hour and in a moment of time the hour will pass over to the new age. This is not a thing to fear but a thing that all people can rejoice in.
Ambiguity is not sin or God would not walk in ambiguity him/her self. :)
I guess we will all just have to run our mouths until that day. :)
The scriptures tell us to reverently respect God, but not to fear God.
God knoweth the hour and in a moment of time the hour will pass over to the new age. This is not a thing to fear but a thing that all people can rejoice in.
Ambiguity is not sin or God would not walk in ambiguity him/her self. :)
Actually Doc that might be an excellent topic for you to look at. . . the fear of God.. . . one of my favorites . . .
. . . . . for our God is a consuming fire.
do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. . . .
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe. . . . .
You say God walks in ambiguity. . . perhaps God is more a paradox than ambiguitious. Sometimes when we don't understand something. . . we are quick to try and define it. . . it seems a natural human inclination. I get that.
He is awesome and wonderful as revealed through scripture. Beyond really. So, why not seek out the God of the bible instead of ascribing numerical values and characteristics based on our finite understanding.
even though we may not like the z-word..its just a word
but it seems that even if you leave out every doctrine in the universe
and hold a small patch of judeo-christian doctrines
"God" and "Spirit" is very often described as being very "zeroish"
without form
invisible
likened to wind
and air
and breath
"the whole ghost"
the deep
always
already
everywhere
timeless
eternal
witness
simple and obvious
yet mysterious and enigmatic
causal
clear
evident
ultimately fathomless
higher than the highest
lower than the lowest
closer than the closest
farther than the farthest
infinitely inward
and outward from here
always speaking
yet always silent
God has no opposite
to put on the mind of Christ
is to take "God's perspective"
is to take a perspective of such radical clarity and spacious gracious love
Formlessness gives us a lot of space to defrag
in all the big and little ways we do
not only is this our original and final perspective
it is always already constantly "on" and "open"
like a door that never closes
to rest and relax and simply witness and behold the face of God
is to feel and experience how absolutely soaking wet we are with the "Spirit of God"
both inside and out
no, not valueless for lacking value....
but valueless for being unmeasureable and abundantly free
to think that the God is somewhere else
or somehow separate from us
or smaller than
or missing from ALL THIS HERE NOW
is a form heresy
and a blasphemy against "the one whole Spirit"
because we are like fish who dont know we are wet
and suffer on the wrong side of the eye of a needle
...
i mean...what happens when final seal is opened in the throneroom of God?
"God" and "Spirit" is very often described as being very "zeroish"
Hmm, so you say. Perhaps if words mean whatever you want them to mean.
without form? Many things are without form, but are still something more than nothing.
invisible? Kind of silly to describe nothing as invisible, no? Invisible connotes something (more than zero therefore) that can't be seen.
likened to wind? Wind is not a zero. I live in Florida - don't even go there.
and air? Ditto
and breath? Dittojava script:add_smilie("","smid_42")
"the whole ghost?" As opposed to 1/2 the ghost? Or 2 ghosts? Oh, I get it - whole sounds like hole, and the whole of a donut is round, and what is round looks like a zero. OK, I believe this is serious.
the deep? Anyone got a boot?
always? Zero is never.
already? Prior to a time is not a zero point.
everywhere? I lived in a time when everything was everything. THAT I understand, but everything is nothing? Everywhere is nowhere? Everywhen is nowhen? I guess you're guessing a lot that ---well I guess I must have missed it actually. Surely you recognize this "rant" as the rambling of your mind.
I could go on, but why?
Let me try to sum up. If I could borrow the words of DrWW, "Ephesians 3:18 KJV
'May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;'
Comment: So we place our foundation upon an invisible God, upon a point the has neither depth nor height, nor form... Sounds like zero to me."
Well, actually, those are the words of DrWW talking about the words of Paul, umm, ultimately, the Word of God? That IS the POINT (if anyone is looking for a point here) of this discussion, no?
So, Paul just referred to a multidimensional reality, one more dimension than most of us admit to having understanding of (& we're leaving out time here), and Paul says we can comprehend it - "WE," not just you and I, but all saints. We're not talking genius here. Genius is not required to get on this bandwagon of understanding. Actually, reminds me of a verse - Isaiah 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
Dang, I can be a fool and not err on this path.
But, DrWW reads all this everything more than any everything anyone has ever thought about & sees zero. WOW, now, THAT'S amazing (don't mean to pick on DrWW while talking to SirG, but it appears we have 2 threads where we might as well have 1). DrWW, you have discounted such an everything to zero because, you say, we "place our foundation upon an invisible God, upon a point the has neither depth nor height, nor form... Sounds like zero to me."
Upon what foundation do you say God is a "point that has neither depth nor height, nor form?" Hm, hm, hm, don't see that here.
Don't want to drag this silliness on, but this one,
causal? I guess again mentioned as evidence that God is zero. I just thought that was too funny not to mention. No offense intended.
Formlessness gives us a lot of space to defrag in all the big and little ways we do? Defrag on. He certainly has given us a lot of space to do so, but I'm not that sure that lot of space is meant to be occupied my "all the big and little ways we defrag."
"no, not valueless for lacking value....but valueless for being unmeasureable and abundantly free?
Sounds good, but that's not zero.
"to think that the God is somewhere else or somehow separate from us or smaller than or missing from ALL THIS HERE NOW is a form heresy and a blasphemy against "the one whole Spirit"
I think the concern was more that we can be be separated from God, rather than that God was separated from us - but maybe that's just me.
"because we are like fish who dont know we are wet and suffer on the wrong side of the eye of a needle"
What a nice figure, SirG
"i mean...what happens when final seal is opened in the throneroom of God?"
Ooh, you had to ask that! Well, there's been a lot of talk about perspective lately, so let me leave it at this. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm supposing that when you ask about the "final seal," you're playing very loosely with the Word - umm, as your manner is. So, therefore, I'll refrain from too many specifics. You probably meant "the bottom line" when you said "the final seal." Forgive me if I'm wrong.
Depending upon one's perspective, the opening of the final seal will be a time of woe for those who have held on to their pride and screwed irreverently with the Holy Spirit, or a time of rejoicing for those ballsy enough to have held fast to their hope because they know now that their Hope is VERY soon coming at that point.
“I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory’,” Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t-- till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’”
“But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean-- neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master-- that’s all.”
"God" and "Spirit" is very often described as being very "zeroish"
Hmm, so you say. Perhaps if words mean whatever you want them to mean.
without form? Many things are without form, but are still something more than nothing.
invisible? Kind of silly to describe nothing as invisible, no? Invisible connotes something (more than zero therefore) that can't be seen.
likened to wind? Wind is not a zero. I live in Florida - don't even go there.
and air? Ditto
and breath? Dittojava script:add_smilie("","smid_42")
"the whole ghost?" As opposed to 1/2 the ghost? Or 2 ghosts? Oh, I get it - whole sounds like hole, and the whole of a donut is round, and what is round looks like a zero. OK, I believe this is serious.
the deep? Anyone got a boot?
always? Zero is never.
already? Prior to a time is not a zero point.
everywhere? I lived in a time when everything was everything. THAT I understand, but everything is nothing? Everywhere is nowhere? Everywhen is nowhen? I guess you're guessing a lot that ---well I guess I must have missed it actually. Surely you recognize this "rant" as the rambling of your mind.
I could go on, but why?
Let me try to sum up. If I could borrow the words of DrWW, "Ephesians 3:18 KJV
'May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;'
Comment: So we place our foundation upon an invisible God, upon a point the has neither depth nor height, nor form... Sounds like zero to me."
Well, actually, those are the words of DrWW talking about the words of Paul, umm, ultimately, the Word of God? That IS the POINT (if anyone is looking for a point here) of this discussion, no?
So, Paul just referred to a multidimensional reality, one more dimension than most of us admit to having understanding of (& we're leaving out time here), and Paul says we can comprehend it - "WE," not just you and I, but all saints. We're not talking genius here. Genius is not required to get on this bandwagon of understanding. Actually, reminds me of a verse - Isaiah 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
Dang, I can be a fool and not err on this path.
But, DrWW reads all this everything more than any everything anyone has ever thought about & sees zero. WOW, now, THAT'S amazing (don't mean to pick on DrWW while talking to SirG, but it appears we have 2 threads where we might as well have 1). DrWW, you have discounted such an everything to zero because, you say, we "place our foundation upon an invisible God, upon a point the has neither depth nor height, nor form... Sounds like zero to me."
Upon what foundation do you say God is a "point that has neither depth nor height, nor form?" Hm, hm, hm, don't see that here.
Don't want to drag this silliness on, but this one,
causal? I guess again mentioned as evidence that God is zero. I just thought that was too funny not to mention. No offense intended.
Formlessness gives us a lot of space to defrag in all the big and little ways we do? Defrag on. He certainly has given us a lot of space to do so, but I'm not that sure that lot of space is meant to be occupied my "all the big and little ways we defrag."
"no, not valueless for lacking value....but valueless for being unmeasureable and abundantly free?
Sounds good, but that's not zero.
"to think that the God is somewhere else or somehow separate from us or smaller than or missing from ALL THIS HERE NOW is a form heresy and a blasphemy against "the one whole Spirit"
I think the concern was more that we can be be separated from God, rather than that God was separated from us - but maybe that's just me.
"because we are like fish who dont know we are wet and suffer on the wrong side of the eye of a needle"
What a nice figure, SirG
"i mean...what happens when final seal is opened in the throneroom of God?"
Ooh, you had to ask that! Well, there's been a lot of talk about perspective lately, so let me leave it at this. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm supposing that when you ask about the "final seal," you're playing very loosely with the Word - umm, as your manner is. So, therefore, I'll refrain from too many specifics. You probably meant "the bottom line" when you said "the final seal." Forgive me if I'm wrong.
Depending upon one's perspective, the opening of the final seal will be a time of woe for those who have held on to their pride and screwed irreverently with the Holy Spirit, or a time of rejoicing for those ballsy enough to have held fast to their hope because they know now that their Hope is VERY soon coming at that point.
“I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory’,” Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t-- till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’”
“But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean-- neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master-- that’s all.”
Humpty Dumpty mind you.
Tom
Wow... brother.
Praise and thanks.
1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV
For now we see through a glass, darkly ; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known .
And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation [zero] ; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand :
Luke 12:51 KJV
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Tying together ideas from 2 threads is becoming a bit unwieldy - probably a lot of the fault is mine. If so, I'm sorry.
Speaking of the definitions of zero:
Excuse me, cman.
DrWW: you asked if anyone had referenced a dictionary concerning zero. That long list of synonyms ending in zilch and zip (I think) and preceded by a definition or 2 was mostly from a dictionary. I added "the absence of value," supposedly a valid original definition according to Jaime Escalante in the story Stand and Deliver: "Did you know that neither the Greeks nor the Romans were capable of using the concept of zero? It was your ancestors, the Mayans, who first contemplated the zero. The absence of value. True story."
cman, concerning the math, I found this quote that, I think, should be considered on this thread:
"The mathematical zero and the philosophical notion of nothingness are related but are not the same."
And again, "Zero behaves differently from other numbers. The idea of zero is synonymous with absence, so I choose to view the set of all positive integers, and zero as opposite ideas rather than considering zero to be a distinct number like 1, 2 or 3. In set theory, the idea of a null (or empty) set, is a similar idea. I emphacise that it is the number zero, not the idea, that I choose to eliminate. Presence is the opposite idea of zero and in the realm of numbers, zero reflects the absence of numbers. In otherwords, something either exists, or it doesn't. If it exists, then it has a quality that we call number associated with it, and if it doesn't exist we call this absence, zero.
I will leave this discussion to the philosophers to ponder in more depth."
BTW, from what I gather, the term zero is 1st recorded to have appeared in Mesopotamia around 3 BC. It was supposedly invented independently by the Mayans later around 4 AD. Maybe baby Jesus looked around and said, "Hey, Papa, this is a whole lot of nothing." Just kidding - OK, a little humor. OK, OK, a very little bit of humor. On a scale of 1-10, zero humor? Ouch!
OK, back to the reason I brought up the above quotes. I just figure that, if people are going to be faulting the God of the bible (and I know you're not doing this cman, but it has been a generally present thrust in these 2 threads), they ought not to be doing it based on extra biblical constructs. Personally, I think a far more worthy and worthwhile endeavor than tearing the Word apart would be to put it together - God's thoughts being higher than ours and all. Remember, when Humpty Dumpty took his great fall, all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put HIM back together again.
SirG, Humpty's lesson's notwithstanding, I've enjoyed your banter AND your valuable insight. I've not been offended - I trust the feeling is mutual. Likewise, DrWW. Nevertheless, I'm sure the significance of Humpty's words and demise has neither been lost nor relegated to the ranks of obscurity by either of you.
Happy New Year to all. May we, as little children, expand into what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height and know the love of Christ which passes knowledge, that we might be filled with all the fullness of God. Let Christ's power work in you, and, thereby and therein, glorify God.
Tom
i find it a sad truth...how most of us these days cant be quiet, be still, or stop thinking for a minute
let alone a half hour...or for 9 days...or for 40 days...or more
...like so many of the crazy ancients who wrote all that stuff
honestly...how does any of us know what they were talking about
if we havent had the same experiences they were writing about?
Everyone's posts are surely welcome here. No one has derailed the topic any more than I have.
Today I have been thinking of the "falling away" or departure.
Euclidian geometry (so I was told), defines this falling away as a line drawn from within a circle through the circumference to a location outside the circle (zero).
Just thought I would toss that in for consideration.
and it seems weve been counting with Zeros for about as long as we've been playing with wheels and fire
...
that said...in an attempt to rerail my hypertextual self
i'll throw in that a part of "the whore" seems to represent this, our inevitable eventual predictable period of radical global exploitation and bastardization of ALL languages, religions, traditions, art, literature, etc...
where we become lost in the flotsam and jetsam of discourse
in the wake of a severe period of fragmentation of meaning-making
where we find ourselves a million different ways historically disconnected from historic authenticity and lineage
i dunno, perhaps "the whore" speaks english american
regardless, a significant and complicated archetype
in an already troublesome book of books of books
as antithesis is followed by synthesis
i thank God this post-modern deconstruction precedes reconstruction
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geisha779
You can blame God if you want to, that is your choice. The bible has also been used to preach the gospel of Christ and reach millions with God's merciful message of salvation.
There are people that RISK their lives smuggling bibles into other countries. One tattered bible shared between villages--pieces of paper with parts of the Holy Scriptures on them. . . cherished.
I guess it is perspective. One man's Holy Word of God is another man's toilet paper.
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2006/8/13/2154/70327
Read it. A true story. A man cleaning latrines to get the precious word of God. . . cleaning it off after another used it for toilet paper.A prisoner in a communist prison camp.
He found no ambiguity in the scripture. He found comfort and hope.
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geisha779
If the revelation of God in the bible is to be attacked. . . due to its obscurities and mysteries. . . then I suggest the science being used to ascribe God to zero be also questioned.
That seems to dwell in the land of obscurity, mystery, and theory far more than the revelation of God through scripture.
For someone claiming reason as their guide. . . some consistent logic would be good.
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cman
i don't know about science much
but
0+1=1
sounds a bit like
I and my Father are one
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cman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguity
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ambiguity
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DrWearWord
Wow.
Zero is the Holy Spirit.
Only The Holy Spirit can create. So Zero always can be considered also as one because of Zero's unique inherent potential to create one. One is the image of Zero.
Colossians 1:15 KJV
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Comment: Zero creates time.
0 = 1-1 (living sacrifice)
Then we are one with Zero (eternity), Zero is both finite and infinite. Zero is infinite because Zero can always create time. Zero is finite because Zero is the beginning and the end.
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Tom
Zero IS:
The absence of value
A quantity of no importance
0
aught
cipher
cypher
goose egg
nada
naught
nil
nix
nothing
null
zilch
zip
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DrWearWord
The invisible Omni God is Zero as Elohim, and One as Jehovah. In the beginning Zero created One, and one comprised of two, heaven/earth, male/female… ambiguity.
Elohim is the third word in the Hebrew text of the Bible.
Ephesians 3:18 KJV
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Comment: So we place our foundation upon an invisible God, upon a point the has neither depth nor height, nor form... Sounds like zero to me.
Ephesians 2:21 KJV
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Comment: Zero is the point within the temple where the entire master plans were drawn upon. Zero is the spirit within the temple, zero is the vector origin where all other lines of dimension are drawn from. "Staked to Zero." :)
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geisha779
For someone claiming to break down scripture with reason . . . well you gotta wonder here??
Although I don't think blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is still possible. . . I could be wrong. Given that the Pharisees saw the miracles that Jesus did in the power of the Holy Spirit and still called Him demon possessed. . . probably not possible today.
When TWI called the name of Jesus a devil spirit. . . meaning that the Jesus worshiped in the church and basically by the rest of Christendom. . . was actually a devil spirit. . . that was serious blasphemy. They were actually calling Jesus a demon. TWI was often blasphemous. . . in their teaching of the bible. . . . their worship of it.
There are many definitions of blasphemy. Here is one.
blaspheme - speak of in an irreverent or impious manner; "blaspheme God"
God is Holy and to be praised and worshiped. . . and every knee WILL bow. . . we can run our mouths all day long about God now. . . who He is. . . who He is not. . .
It is just good to keep in the back of your head that you will give an account to Him of which you speak.
The bible is full of. . . consider this. . . . consider that.
Sometimes it is really good to consider what He so graciously asks us to. . . .You have to wonder what all our "Opinions" will be worth when we bow before Him??
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DrWearWord
I guess we will all just have to run our mouths until that day. :)
The scriptures tell us to reverently respect God, but not to fear God.
God knoweth the hour and in a moment of time the hour will pass over to the new age. This is not a thing to fear but a thing that all people can rejoice in.
Ambiguity is not sin or God would not walk in ambiguity him/her self. :)
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geisha779
Actually Doc that might be an excellent topic for you to look at. . . the fear of God.. . . one of my favorites . . .
. . . . . for our God is a consuming fire.
do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. . . .
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe. . . . .
You say God walks in ambiguity. . . perhaps God is more a paradox than ambiguitious. Sometimes when we don't understand something. . . we are quick to try and define it. . . it seems a natural human inclination. I get that.
He is awesome and wonderful as revealed through scripture. Beyond really. So, why not seek out the God of the bible instead of ascribing numerical values and characteristics based on our finite understanding.
Just a thought.
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cman
that's not so bad.....
destroy is an interesting word as well as hell
that means what?
-----
so has anyone looked up zero in any reference work?
i guess it might be 'none' in the kjv
the wiki links are interesting
----
well, hell, interesting topic here.....
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sirguessalot
i dunno...a rant
even though we may not like the z-word..its just a word
but it seems that even if you leave out every doctrine in the universe
and hold a small patch of judeo-christian doctrines
"God" and "Spirit" is very often described as being very "zeroish"
without form
invisible
likened to wind
and air
and breath
"the whole ghost"
the deep
always
already
everywhere
timeless
eternal
witness
simple and obvious
yet mysterious and enigmatic
causal
clear
evident
ultimately fathomless
higher than the highest
lower than the lowest
closer than the closest
farther than the farthest
infinitely inward
and outward from here
always speaking
yet always silent
God has no opposite
to put on the mind of Christ
is to take "God's perspective"
is to take a perspective of such radical clarity and spacious gracious love
Formlessness gives us a lot of space to defrag
in all the big and little ways we do
not only is this our original and final perspective
it is always already constantly "on" and "open"
like a door that never closes
to rest and relax and simply witness and behold the face of God
is to feel and experience how absolutely soaking wet we are with the "Spirit of God"
both inside and out
no, not valueless for lacking value....
but valueless for being unmeasureable and abundantly free
to think that the God is somewhere else
or somehow separate from us
or smaller than
or missing from ALL THIS HERE NOW
is a form heresy
and a blasphemy against "the one whole Spirit"
because we are like fish who dont know we are wet
and suffer on the wrong side of the eye of a needle
...
i mean...what happens when final seal is opened in the throneroom of God?
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Tom
"God" and "Spirit" is very often described as being very "zeroish"
Hmm, so you say. Perhaps if words mean whatever you want them to mean.
without form? Many things are without form, but are still something more than nothing.
invisible? Kind of silly to describe nothing as invisible, no? Invisible connotes something (more than zero therefore) that can't be seen.
likened to wind? Wind is not a zero. I live in Florida - don't even go there.
and air? Ditto
and breath? Dittojava script:add_smilie("
","smid_42")
"the whole ghost?" As opposed to 1/2 the ghost? Or 2 ghosts? Oh, I get it - whole sounds like hole, and the whole of a donut is round, and what is round looks like a zero. OK, I believe this is serious.
the deep? Anyone got a boot?
always? Zero is never.
already? Prior to a time is not a zero point.
everywhere? I lived in a time when everything was everything. THAT I understand, but everything is nothing? Everywhere is nowhere? Everywhen is nowhen? I guess you're guessing a lot that ---well I guess I must have missed it actually. Surely you recognize this "rant" as the rambling of your mind.
I could go on, but why?
Let me try to sum up. If I could borrow the words of DrWW, "Ephesians 3:18 KJV
'May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;'
Comment: So we place our foundation upon an invisible God, upon a point the has neither depth nor height, nor form... Sounds like zero to me."
Well, actually, those are the words of DrWW talking about the words of Paul, umm, ultimately, the Word of God? That IS the POINT (if anyone is looking for a point here) of this discussion, no?
So, Paul just referred to a multidimensional reality, one more dimension than most of us admit to having understanding of (& we're leaving out time here), and Paul says we can comprehend it - "WE," not just you and I, but all saints. We're not talking genius here. Genius is not required to get on this bandwagon of understanding. Actually, reminds me of a verse - Isaiah 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
Dang, I can be a fool and not err on this path.
But, DrWW reads all this everything more than any everything anyone has ever thought about & sees zero. WOW, now, THAT'S amazing (don't mean to pick on DrWW while talking to SirG, but it appears we have 2 threads where we might as well have 1). DrWW, you have discounted such an everything to zero because, you say, we "place our foundation upon an invisible God, upon a point the has neither depth nor height, nor form... Sounds like zero to me."
Upon what foundation do you say God is a "point that has neither depth nor height, nor form?" Hm, hm, hm, don't see that here.
Don't want to drag this silliness on, but this one,
causal? I guess again mentioned as evidence that God is zero. I just thought that was too funny not to mention. No offense intended.
Formlessness gives us a lot of space to defrag in all the big and little ways we do? Defrag on. He certainly has given us a lot of space to do so, but I'm not that sure that lot of space is meant to be occupied my "all the big and little ways we defrag."
"no, not valueless for lacking value....but valueless for being unmeasureable and abundantly free?
Sounds good, but that's not zero.
"to think that the God is somewhere else or somehow separate from us or smaller than or missing from ALL THIS HERE NOW is a form heresy and a blasphemy against "the one whole Spirit"
I think the concern was more that we can be be separated from God, rather than that God was separated from us - but maybe that's just me.
"because we are like fish who dont know we are wet and suffer on the wrong side of the eye of a needle"
What a nice figure, SirG
"i mean...what happens when final seal is opened in the throneroom of God?"
Ooh, you had to ask that! Well, there's been a lot of talk about perspective lately, so let me leave it at this. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm supposing that when you ask about the "final seal," you're playing very loosely with the Word - umm, as your manner is. So, therefore, I'll refrain from too many specifics. You probably meant "the bottom line" when you said "the final seal." Forgive me if I'm wrong.
Depending upon one's perspective, the opening of the final seal will be a time of woe for those who have held on to their pride and screwed irreverently with the Holy Spirit, or a time of rejoicing for those ballsy enough to have held fast to their hope because they know now that their Hope is VERY soon coming at that point.
“I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory’,” Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t-- till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’”
“But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean-- neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master-- that’s all.”
Humpty Dumpty mind you.
Tom
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DrWearWord
Wow... brother.
Praise and thanks.
1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV
For now we see through a glass, darkly ; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known .
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waysider
I believe it was Firesign Theater who once posed the question, "How can you be in two places at once when you're not anywhere at all?"
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DrWearWord
Is zero sometimes, "off land"?
Can zero both feed and give? Ambiguity in Zero.
Is not a whore, two faced?
Matthew 12:25 KJV
And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation [zero] ; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand :
Luke 12:51 KJV
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
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Tom
Thank you!
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cman
ahhh-
complications, complications
distractions, distractions
Tom,
Zero is not an absence of anything.
But the guarantee of infinity.
If it can be considered simply.
Even with the definitions of zero.
The action, or what zero actual does to anything.
Or with anything.
Then it's value becomes clearer.
The value is there, a very strong value.
I'm not sure if that's clear.
It's the basic idea though.
Just in math-
0, 10, 100, 1000
how far can it go?
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sirguessalot
and truly sorry if you feel i have interrupted any of your threads, DWW
...i dont want to be rude...i can take it
and Tom,
truly sorry for my personality type
and for providing you with such an abundant stack of sillinesses to correct
i do forgive you for your personality type
and your equally silly stack of presumptions, assumptions and misplaced personal references
...i couldnt possibly keep up with them either
judging by your response...it seems that what i have written makes no sense to you
it seems obvious to me that we dont learn, speak or communicate via all the same rules
though i am not sure what either of us can do about that right now
which is ok with me
at least i hope you enjoy the humor you found in it all
even more...i hope the humor is real
perhaps humpty knows what i mean
i dunno
...
and not that the line-for-line back and forth copy/paste quoting cant be done
or that it cant be somewhat of an effective way to discover what is meant
i just honestly dont have the time or energy or interest to respond in kind
and will likely bow out altogether whenever someone goes that way with me
...
btw, though i almost dont want to mention this ...we'll see i guess
but someone might appreciate knowing that i simply assumed most anyone who was reading here
was either familiar with what happens when the seventh seal on the book of life is opened by the Lamb in The Revelation of Christ...yada yada yada
...or would at least know how to find it if they were interested
Rev 8:1
one interesting point of comparison
how in many many contemplative traditions, Christian and otherwise
it generally takes the body/mind about a half an hour of sitting in silent practice to get "grounded"
or otherwise settle into a "spiritual state of mind" ...or whatever one wants to call it
i find it a sad truth...how most of us these days cant be quiet, be still, or stop thinking for a minute
let alone a half hour...or for 9 days...or for 40 days...or more
...like so many of the crazy ancients who wrote all that stuff
honestly...how does any of us know what they were talking about
if we havent had the same experiences they were writing about?
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sirguessalot
this thread really is rich with wide open questions
littered with koans and riddles
for answers to lap and splash against
there are general notions in the arts of dying
...both modern and ancient hospice, griefwork and midwifery
that from the collapse of an order
rises a higher order
and there is always a collapse
as there is always a higher order
in this light
redemption, healing and salvation is possible
before, during and after loss
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Tom
Tying together ideas from 2 threads is becoming a bit unwieldy - probably a lot of the fault is mine. If so, I'm sorry.
Speaking of the definitions of zero:
Excuse me, cman.
DrWW: you asked if anyone had referenced a dictionary concerning zero. That long list of synonyms ending in zilch and zip (I think) and preceded by a definition or 2 was mostly from a dictionary. I added "the absence of value," supposedly a valid original definition according to Jaime Escalante in the story Stand and Deliver: "Did you know that neither the Greeks nor the Romans were capable of using the concept of zero? It was your ancestors, the Mayans, who first contemplated the zero. The absence of value. True story."
cman, concerning the math, I found this quote that, I think, should be considered on this thread:
"The mathematical zero and the philosophical notion of nothingness are related but are not the same."
And again, "Zero behaves differently from other numbers. The idea of zero is synonymous with absence, so I choose to view the set of all positive integers, and zero as opposite ideas rather than considering zero to be a distinct number like 1, 2 or 3. In set theory, the idea of a null (or empty) set, is a similar idea. I emphacise that it is the number zero, not the idea, that I choose to eliminate. Presence is the opposite idea of zero and in the realm of numbers, zero reflects the absence of numbers. In otherwords, something either exists, or it doesn't. If it exists, then it has a quality that we call number associated with it, and if it doesn't exist we call this absence, zero.
I will leave this discussion to the philosophers to ponder in more depth."
BTW, from what I gather, the term zero is 1st recorded to have appeared in Mesopotamia around 3 BC. It was supposedly invented independently by the Mayans later around 4 AD. Maybe baby Jesus looked around and said, "Hey, Papa, this is a whole lot of nothing." Just kidding - OK, a little humor. OK, OK, a very little bit of humor. On a scale of 1-10, zero humor? Ouch!
OK, back to the reason I brought up the above quotes. I just figure that, if people are going to be faulting the God of the bible (and I know you're not doing this cman, but it has been a generally present thrust in these 2 threads), they ought not to be doing it based on extra biblical constructs. Personally, I think a far more worthy and worthwhile endeavor than tearing the Word apart would be to put it together - God's thoughts being higher than ours and all. Remember, when Humpty Dumpty took his great fall, all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put HIM back together again.
SirG, Humpty's lesson's notwithstanding, I've enjoyed your banter AND your valuable insight. I've not been offended - I trust the feeling is mutual. Likewise, DrWW. Nevertheless, I'm sure the significance of Humpty's words and demise has neither been lost nor relegated to the ranks of obscurity by either of you.
Happy New Year to all. May we, as little children, expand into what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height and know the love of Christ which passes knowledge, that we might be filled with all the fullness of God. Let Christ's power work in you, and, thereby and therein, glorify God.
Tom
I don't know, but I'm going to stop thinking now.
Love ya,
Tom
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DrWearWord
Everyone's posts are surely welcome here. No one has derailed the topic any more than I have.
Today I have been thinking of the "falling away" or departure.
Euclidian geometry (so I was told), defines this falling away as a line drawn from within a circle through the circumference to a location outside the circle (zero).
Just thought I would toss that in for consideration.
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sirguessalot
glad to hear, dww..and thanks again for all the threads and open inquiry
for what its worth...
it was never about Humpty breaking
...but falling
and it seems weve been counting with Zeros for about as long as we've been playing with wheels and fire
...
that said...in an attempt to rerail my hypertextual self
i'll throw in that a part of "the whore" seems to represent this, our inevitable eventual predictable period of radical global exploitation and bastardization of ALL languages, religions, traditions, art, literature, etc...
where we become lost in the flotsam and jetsam of discourse
in the wake of a severe period of fragmentation of meaning-making
where we find ourselves a million different ways historically disconnected from historic authenticity and lineage
i dunno, perhaps "the whore" speaks english american
regardless, a significant and complicated archetype
in an already troublesome book of books of books
as antithesis is followed by synthesis
i thank God this post-modern deconstruction precedes reconstruction
have a happy hopeful new year all
+ODD
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geisha779
Sometimes I just gotta to reign myself in. . . this usually helps. . . God speaks. . .not to a fool or schemer but to a righteous man.
Who is this who obscures [My] counsel with ignorant words?
Get ready to answer Me like a man;when I question you, you will inform Me
Where were you when I established the earth?
Tell [Me], if you have understanding.
Who fixed its dimensions? Certainly you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
What supports its foundations?
Or who laid its cornerstone while the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Who enclosed the sea behind doors when it burst from the womb, when I made the clouds its garment
and thick darkness its blanket, when I determined its boundaries
and put [its] bars and doors in place, when I declared: "You may come this far, but no farther; your proud
waves stop here"?
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