You would have had to be involved in GSC since I was to get a handle on bits and pieces of 'my story', John.
I did enjoy your perspective here in your last post. Though to carry and say you are a professional, could be overstating the facts. But I'm ok with it, as it seems there is no better term for the line of work you are in.
You would have had to be involved in GSC since I was to get a handle on bits and pieces of 'my story', John.
I did enjoy your perspective here in your last post. Though to carry and say you are a professional, could be overstating the facts. But I'm ok with it, as it seems there is no better term for the line of work you are in.
---
And are you ever alone?
Really?
Do you think you can be, honestly?
Are you also watching yourself?
I remain puzzled by your posts. They seem cryptic and oblique to me. I'm hoping you can explain.
It might help if you defined what you mean by professional. I put in the time, did the work, earned the degree, earned the license, have used what I learned, and I'm pleased to say, most of my clients benefit by the work we do together. I'm a licensed psychotherapist in New York State.
Naturally, like any professional worth his or her salt, I know I have much to learn still. And every client I work with teaches me something.
I sometimes think that our belief that no one can understand what we went through in our cults is an extension of the narcissism we were indoctrinated with in our groups. It seems universal that there is some version of "our truth is superior to any other" and "we are saved and they are NOT." And a certain group of former members that no one could possibly understand. I wonder if these things are related?
I personally found it a great relief to find out there wasn't anything particularly special about my experience in Transcendental Meditation. That the broad outlines of what I went through, many thousands of people had gone through in other groups. In fact, I found it easier to talk to people from other cults than my own. I wasn't as triggered by the buzz words. It didn't engage my guilt over leaving. I felt I learned more about my cult by talking to people from TWI, JWs, Siddha Yoga, Scientology, Amway, and so many other groups people reported being abused by.
I can't know that it would be the same for you, cman. And every client I've known has had at least one surprise for me. But I've helped people work through murder, rape, suicidality, criminality, molestation, waking up screaming in the middle of the night, periods of amnesia, memory & cognitive deficits, hatred, shaming, child abuse, loss of family, loss of children -- serious pain.
It could be that being open to yourself discussing your experience with someone with a different experience and perspective might surprise you.
About 10 years ago, I decided to see a psychologist. I began what turned out to be six months of weekly sessions. I'm glad I decided to do it. In a word, my experience there acted as an accelerant. My therapist pushed, pulled, probed and prodded me through a thinking process that I might never have fully accomplished on my own. He accelerated my thinking processes, which in turn accelerated my healing.
I'm puzzled as to why you haven't answered my question about deprogramming/exit counseling. In asking that question, I was not trying to start an argument with you. I simply wanted to know where you stand on that issue. And more importantly, I think it's only fair that others here have the opportunity to know the answer, since you're promoting your counseling business on GSC.
It's your right to ignore me, but it doesn't raise your credibility level, IMO, when you ignore a question that is so pertinent to the type of services you're offering.
About 10 years ago, I decided to see a psychologist. I began what turned out to be six months of weekly sessions. I'm glad I decided to do it. In a word, my experience there acted as an accelerant. My therapist pushed, pulled, probed and prodded me through a thinking process that I might never have fully accomplished on my own. He accelerated my thinking processes, which in turn accelerated my healing.
Great story! From what I know of therapy, I know you did all the work. You deserve all the credit. Good on you!
I'm puzzled as to why you haven't answered my question about deprogramming/exit counseling. In asking that question, I was not trying to start an argument with you. I simply wanted to know where you stand on that issue. And more importantly, I think it's only fair that others here have the opportunity to know the answer, since you're promoting your counseling business on GSC.
It's your right to ignore me, but it doesn't raise your credibility level, IMO, when you ignore a question that is so pertinent to the type of services you're offering.
Hi, Linda Z,
I didn't mean to ignore it. I must have missed it!
Deprogramming doesn't really happen anymore. Ted Patrick was sued back in the early 80s, I believe, for forcible removal of an adult and attempting to coerce someone into leaving a cult. I believe the charges were kidnapping and similar things.
Exit counseling doesn't involve detaining someone, but it is a confrontational process of attempting to talk someone into leaving through an "intervention." Generally, the intervention is arranged for by concerned family members. In 2 to 3 days of day-long sessions, the group member is presented with information about fraudulent material about the group, the techniques of mind control used by their group, and the testimony of other former members.
I don't do either. I'm not comfortable confronting someone and trying to convince them that their group was a cult. It runs against my beliefs and temperament. It frequently doesn't work long time. It doesn't respect the right of adults to make their own decisions for themselves. It's pretty darn expensive: After paying the exit counselor's fees, travel, lodging, phone calls, and incidentals the price tag can run $10 grand, maybe more. And some exit counselors work as a team, with three or so people, confronting the group member. Really expensive.
And, even when it does work, for many people exit counseling is not enough -- challenges continue long after leaving a cult for many people. At best exit counseling is just a beginning for many people. And a good number end up going back to their original cult or drift into another one. (Many do benefit from the experience. I've never seen numbers on a success rate. I do now that a good number of the clients I've worked with underwent exit counseling and continue to have recovery issues even years later.)
I choose to work with people who have already decided to leave their group. Even then, I don't take a directive approach, meaning I don't try to convince them of anything. I strive to give everyone the respect and space to make these important decisions for themselves.
I work with something called a "brief therapy model." This means that we start planning on termination from the first time we meet. What do you want to get out of therapy? How will you know when you have met your goals? With questions like that, we start from the beginning the process of firing me and hiring you to be your own therapist.
Typically my work lasts 12 or so sessions with a client. Sometimes a person's personal needs require longer work. And to disclose fully, I have worked with some clients for a couple of years. This is unusual. But some clients are extremely damaged and require a great deal of support. The point isn't to make a career of therapy!
Now it isn't the case that every client will have dealt with all problems within 12 sessions. But in the majority of cases, clients will have learned the tools that they need to become their own therapist and continue progressing on their own.
Linda Z, I hope this answers your question. Don't hesitate to ask for further details. And I'd like to know your views of exit counseling. Did you or someone you know get involved with exit counseling?
Thanks for answering, John. My responses to you are in blue, below.
I didn't mean to ignore it. I must have missed it!
Deprogramming doesn't really happen anymore. Ted Patrick was sued back in the early 80s, I believe, for forcible removal of an adult and attempting to coerce someone into leaving a cult. I believe the charges were kidnapping and similar things.
I had 3 good friends and one acquaintance who were kidnapped and attempted to be deprogrammed. They all returned to twi with horror stories about how they had been treated: sleep deprivation, shoes taken away to make it harder for them to escape, sometimes food deprivation, constant grilling and badgering. I knew 3 of these people before and after their attempted deprogramming and one I got to know after she went through it. I didn't know any of them to be given to exaggeration or lying, so I had no reason not to believe what they said had happened to them. I was glad the law finally came down hard on Patrick and his ilk.
Exit counseling doesn't involve detaining someone, but it is a confrontational process of attempting to talk someone into leaving through an "intervention." Generally, the intervention is arranged for by concerned family members. In 2 to 3 days of day-long sessions, the group member is presented with information about fraudulent material about the group, the techniques of mind control used by their group, and the testimony of other former members.
You asked at the end of your post what I think about exit counseling. I think so-called exit counseling is simply "deprogramming light"--an old approach in a new, more legally acceptable dress. Not to mention that it seems like a highly profitable one for its practitioners!! I do have a question: If the subjects of exit counseling aren't kidnapped, how do these groups get them to participate? Once the sessions start, are they permitted to walk away at any time?
I don't do either. I'm not comfortable confronting someone and trying to convince them that their group was a cult. It runs against my beliefs and temperament. It frequently doesn't work long time. It doesn't respect the right of adults to make their own decisions for themselves.
I'm very glad to see you say this. It's my opinion that anything can become a "cult" to someone who is vulnerable to sacrificing who they are and their right to make their own decisions, and invest all their time and emotional energy in a group, whether it's a mainstream church or the PTA or a non-mainstream religious group. To me, the important point here is, as you say, that adults have a right to make their own decisions about what they involve themselves in.
It's pretty darn expensive: After paying the exit counselor's fees, travel, lodging, phone calls, and incidentals the price tag can run $10 grand, maybe more. And some exit counselors work as a team, with three or so people, confronting the group member. Really expensive.
I wonder what percentage of that $10 grand or so goes to the exit counselors. I can't imagine what it must be like to be "confronted" by a team of "three or so people" for "2 or 3 day-long sessions." I also wonder if the exit counselors still seek out families to convince them to put up that kind of money to "rescue" their adult children. I seem to recall that Ted Patrick et al were quite aggressive in their marketing to families, and for some of those families, the expense was a great hardship.
And, even when it does work, for many people exit counseling is not enough -- challenges continue long after leaving a cult for many people. (snip for brecity)
It's my opinion that some of those challenges arise from the experience of exit counseling itself.
I choose to work with people who have already decided to leave their group. Even then, I don't take a directive approach, meaning I don't try to convince them of anything. I strive to give everyone the respect and space to make these important decisions for themselves.
I'm relieved to hear this is your position. This is what I wanted to know. I think doing otherwise runs the risk of plunging people into what I call the "anti-cult cult," just switching from one authoritative group or person telling them what to do to another authoritative group or person telling them what to do. Not healthy, in my opinion.
I work with something called a "brief therapy model." This means that we start planning on termination from the first time we meet. What do you want to get out of therapy? How will you know when you have met your goals? With questions like that, we start from the beginning the process of firing me and hiring you to be your own therapist.
That seems to be an excellent plan, one that discourages people from becoming dependent on their therapist
Typically my work lasts 12 or so sessions with a client. Sometimes a person's personal needs require longer work. And to disclose fully, I have worked with some clients for a couple of years. This is unusual. But some clients are extremely damaged and require a great deal of support. The point isn't to make a career of therapy!
Now it isn't the case that every client will have dealt with all problems within 12 sessions. But in the majority of cases, clients will have learned the tools that they need to become their own therapist and continue progressing on their own.
I like your attitude. :)
Linda Z, I hope this answers your question. Don't hesitate to ask for further details. And I'd like to know your views of exit counseling. Did you or someone you know get involved with exit counseling?
Thank you, John, for your forthright answers. I really wasn't trying to put you on the spot, but because of my reservations about exit counseling and some things associated with it, I really wanted to know where you stood. As somneone else said (Groucho, I think), I feel quite protective of my fellow GSers and wanted to make sure you weren't "one of those." :D
Exit counseling doesn't involve detaining someone, but it is a confrontational process of attempting to talk someone into leaving through an "intervention." Generally, the intervention is arranged for by concerned family members. In 2 to 3 days of day-long sessions, the group member is presented with information about fraudulent material about the group, the techniques of mind control used by their group, and the testimony of other former members.
Sounds a lot like my deprogramming, except for the first six words, and the fact that you do not describe how the information is presented.
My question right now is, is it really both a confrontational process and one that doesn't involve detaining someone? I mean, by that someone has to agree to be confronted before the confrontation. If someone has to be detained even for a hopefully short time until they agree to "discuss" things, then that still involves detaining someone.
Yes, Lifted, you were the one I was referring to, but I didn't want to name you, in case you'd rather not engage in this discussion.
And yes, I really am interested in what John thinks about what I asked him. That's why I asked.
Thank you for the courtesy, Linda. However much or little I engage in this, I don't mind being mentioned.
Have you posted your story here? I'd be interested in reading it.
There is that phrase again, more or less. And, as with Linda, I feel sure that John is interested in cman's opinion. If I posted the reason that phrase seems to stick with me though, I would be going and besides courtesy, I have no personal desire to derail this topic.
Thanks for answering, John. My responses to you are in blue, below.
I do have a question: If the subjects of exit counseling aren't kidnapped, how do these groups get them to participate? Once the sessions start, are they permitted to walk away at any time?
They are not physically constrained. But they are asked to sign a contract before the start saying they won't leave. There can be heavy pressure by the exit counselor and family members not to leave.
It's my opinion that some of those challenges arise from the experience of exit counseling itself.
I haven't really found that, but I've never worked for someone who felt they were coerced by exit counselors. It could be that people with that experience don't seek me out.
Thanks for your questions! Just to remind people late in the thread, I choose not to do exit counseling for some of the reasons you mention in your post, Linda.
J.
John, I don't think you have posted your story either.
But no big deal.
If it comes it comes.
Hi, cman,
I haven't posted much here, but some of it is at my website. I don't think it's necessary for anyone to post there story, naturally. I was just curious whether you had because I was interested. I meant no pressure or offense!
If people are interested, I could try to post a summary of my story.
The reason for signing a contract is so they won't be sent to jail for detaining a person against their will-kidnapping or to protect themselves from being sued. Most likely both.
The reason for signing a contract is so they won't be sent to jail for detaining a person against their will-kidnapping or to protect themselves from being sued. Most likely both.
I didn't see the contract mention, but someone would still have to know what he/she were signing for, like being confronted.
I didn't see the contract mention, but someone would still have to know what he/she were signing for, like being confronted.
Yes, I agree.
There is no confrontation in the work that I do. I believe one can deal with the feelings brought up by exploring cult involvement in relative comfort -- if both therapist and client make that one of their goals.
This is as close as I've ever come to telling my own story:
Today, I am a psychotherapist specializing in recovery from toxic groups, abusive churches, and cults. But I spent 23 years in my own cultic relationship with the Transcendental Meditation Organization.
I was 18, a freshman in college when I attended my first introductory lecture on TM. I thought from the poster that the leader, the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, would be there. Instead, there was just "Mark," a 20-something, clean-shaven guy in a blue, three-piece suit and red tie.
He cut quite a discordant figure back in 1971, among the sea of blue jeans, beards, and long hair.
Mark promised me better memory, increased intelligence, and better grades for a one-time fee of $25. He stated, in answer to an audience question, that TM would lead to enlightenment in 5 to 7 years. He mentioned then-current scientific research that he said proved his claims.
Sounded like a deal. I signed up.
Within 5 years, I was living on a TM compound, working for $25 a month on the TM Movement's "Age of Enlightenment Press." Eating exclusively a low-protein, zucchini-and-rice diet. Working up to 36 hours in a shift. Not allowed to read the news. Having to ask permission to leave the compound. Faced with being required to sign a life-time contract working for the TM Organization or face expulsion from the compound.
Yeah, I know. I should have walked out. You probably wonder why I stayed for 18 more years.
How do I define a "cult"? To be honest, as a psychotherapist, I do not concern myself overly much with defining which groups are cultic and which are not. I focus on "cultic relationships." I define a cultic relationship as a relationship between any group and an individual in which the individual experiences such high-intensity demands on time and resources that he or she experiences dysfunction in one or more core life areas: relationships, career, finances, community, physical or emotional well-being, spirituality.
There is no question I had a cultic relationship with TM.
Is it a cult? That's something for each individual to decide.
One of the first exercises I ask my clients to do is a list of losses from their group: things they lost in the group, things they lost after leaving the group, and "opportunity costs" — opportunities that they missed because of group involvement.
Somehow despite my 14 years of cult recovery activism, I've never completed the exercise for myself.
There's no time like the present. So here I go:
I gave TM 23 years of my life. During the 15 years or so of my deepest involvement as a TM Teacher ("Governor"), I saw my family fewer than 5 times. We were encouraged to believe that our families were "too stressed" and would "drain our energy" -- bring our consciousness down if they shared the same space with us. God forbid they should touch us! They would slow our spiritual evolution.
I missed all the important family functions, Holidays, the birth of my sister's first son. My father and I never reconciled over significant childhood wounds. He died while I was in the cult.
I gave up well over $100,000 in money paid for advanced meditation courses, Indian medicines, lucky gems, and more guaranteed means to bring Enlightenment.
I gave up my self respect. The Maharishi pressured us to tell outsiders that we were able to literally levitate. He said back in 1978 that we were so close to "hovering" that it would only be a matter of months until it happened. "Be bold!" in our claims, he importuned us in frequent conference calls. Thirty years later and no one has ever levitated, much less hovered.
And my family and friends went from polite curiosity, to disbelief, to sarcastic humor whenever I brought levitating up.
Harder yet were the lies I was encouraged to tell potential meditators. We told them TM was not a religion, even though we paid to have propitious rituals performed on our behalf to Shiva, Ganesh, Lakshmi, and other Hindu gods. We told them our initiation ceremony was not religious even though we made offerings to Shiva and Shakti and worshipped the guru as Shiva. In fact, one TM leader, Charlie Lutes, told us that we were actually offering the soul of the initiate to Shiva.
I thought I was serving a higher good by not "confusing" new initiates with this knowledge.
By the time I left the TM Organization in 1995, I had given up my mind. Once a National Merit Scholar, I had difficulty remembering names and faces -- even of family members. I had frequent lapses of consciousness -- known as "dissociation" -- lasting from minutes to hours, even in the midst of conversations. I picked up an unusual stutter because I so frequently forgot what I was saying as I said it that I was always anxious speaking.
TM members said I was experiencing "bliss." But I knew I had become a total space cadet.
I developed uncontrolled full body spasms. Quietly, TMers referred to these as "kriyas" -- actions caused by a mystical, spiritual force known as "Kundalini." But they just made it dangerous for me to drive -- and embarrassing for me to be in public.
I had delusional beliefs. I can remember telling my mother in all seriousness that I was an incarnation of Vishnu.
There's more. But space is limited. There was no physical abuse. But my mind, of which I had once been so proud, was thoroughly scrambled.
In leaving the Movement, I lost even more. I lost my friends. They shunned me once they knew I had left. I felt shame and guilt in front of my family. I had talked them into learning TM -- even though I knew I was lying to them about the benefits and the religious aspects of TM.
I believed I lost my chance at enlightenment. Perhaps my connection to God. Ultimately, I became so suspicious of spiritual groups and teachings, I would get the heebie-jeebies just going to church with my wife.
I was told I might be cursed to re-incarnate in hell for thousands of life times.
I lost God.
I lost the intensity and sense of purpose I had while in the TM Movement. Working on staff or as a teacher, nearly every waking moment was spent in the pursuit of world peace through Transcendental Meditation. I lost the sense of belonging to a community.
I lost my world.
And I felt I lost my future. My self-esteem was destroyed. I was haunted with doubts that there was nothing wrong with the TM techniques or the Movement, the problem was that there was something wrong with me. After all, I had watched dozens of people drummed out of the Movement when they expressed doubts. And I had joined in ganging up on them, saying they were impure, "stressed," "unstressing," mentally deranged, damaged -- probably too damaged even when they joined the Movement.
I had nightmares from which I might wake screaming several times a week. I shook when in public. I wore full-length coats all the time: I didn't want anyone to see me.
What opportunities did I miss?
I gave up my intended career. I entered college planning on becoming a doctor. But "relative" knowledge was frowned on. All that really mattered was being a knower of the "Absolute." I managed to scrape up an English degree despite volunteering and living at the local TM center. I took the easiest courses I could find so I wouldn't detract from my true career: evolving my consciousness. (Spending money on more courses to attain enlightenment.)
In the workforce, I jumped from job to job -- leaving every time the Maharishi announced a new months-long course guaranteed to save the world from World War III.
But when I got out of TM at 42, there was no going back to pick up an MD.
I didn't marry until 39, when I was already in the process of leaving the Movement. I had made a private vow of celibacy when the Movement asked it of me. It was supposed to lead to higher states of enlightenment.
I gave up my first marriage. No wife should have to go through the messy recovery my first few years after leaving TM. Crippling depression in which I didn't get out of bed for days. Fistfuls of prescribed psychoactive medications. And more meds to counter their side-effects.
I thought I was going crazy. I probably was.
I gave up having children.
Today, after a lot of conscious, emotional work, I have a happy, comfortable, productive, and fulfilling life. I have a family that is a great refuge for me. I live on a farm with 3 chocolate labs, two cats, and two nasty-tempered cockatiels.
I have a career that I am passionate about.
I notice as I read this diary over that I am not mentioning my grief. The main purpose of the Grief Room. I wish I could describe the disconnect I still experience from my emotions. It's so much easier for me to cry or become angry about my clients' experiences.
It's my hope that by reading the unadorned facts, readers can imagine the anger, guilt, shame, and grief I should be feeling.
I'd never allow a client to ask someone else do the emotional work for them. Yet here I am asking that very thing of you.
Forgive me.
There is a good chance that some commenters will express their own positive experiences with TM below. I can readily believe that many, if not most, TMers enjoy their practice. I think meditation is one of nature's miracles.
I've never tried to convince anyone that their feelings and experiences are wrong or don't matter. It's my hope that someday TM practitioners who criticize me for speaking out will be willing to accept that for many people the TM experience is not good.
It could be, if history is any predictor, that some TMers will post that there are always a few disgruntled members of any group. They may even imply or state that I am damaged or downright crazy -- just as I used to do when someone left the TM Movement.
I can only say that I've worked with thousands of former TM members that tell similar stories of the symptoms and disappointments they experienced. If any medication had the kinds of side-effects that former TMers report, it would be yanked from the shelves immediately.
The TM Movement, like many similar toxic groups, is structured like an onion. Most people paid their money, got their mantra, and have only good, incense-drenched memories of their brush with TM. Others took advanced courses. Others went on to become teachers. Some went on staff full-time for the movement. And a very few others went on to enter the inner circle of the Maharishi himself.
At every level, there were new secrets to be held, new lies to be told, and the chance for ever greater damage. The fact that most people had no bad side-effects has little to do with the problems that people at deeper levels experienced. The severity of symptoms seems to vary by intensity of involvement, its duration, and whatever personal vulnerabilities a person had before entering TM.
This diary is rather longer than I intended. I think I will end here. I hoped for more of a cleansing in posting this. But I don't really feel anything.
I will be active in the comments this evening. I'll try to answer any questions people might have. It's possible in reading your questions and responses, I may awaken my deadened feelings.
There's always hope! Change is possible at any moment.
Thanks to Dem in the Heart of Texas for making this possible. And thank you for reading this long diary.
And, as others have already noted, it's always amazing to see the similarities from one cult to the next. The same seperation from "real" world, the same denial of self, and the same disconnect from basic, everyday, barnyard-variety common sense. And I don't mean to play "if you show me yours, I'll show you mine" when it comes to basic acceptance of people, but I have to admit, I wasn't exactly a fan when you first started posting. I think I've got a bit more favorable of an opinion of you now, if that means anything.
It always amazes me the extremes we'll tolerate to be "in" the group. What with now some 20 years between me and my cult daze, I can't even really tell you why I ever got so involved with WayWorld. There's some weird button someplace that cult leaders learn to push I think. I always hated my involvement with The Way, and seldom volunteered that I was a part of the organization, but there I was, every August, in that fetid cornfield in Ohio, saying "Bless you" to everybody I met. Jeezus, was that really me?
But I think the REAL problem isn't even so much giving allegiance to weird cults, but in the abandoning of reason in favor of magical thinking. The default position of opting for "God's" guidance over our own. The willingness to accept untested, unsupported, unprovable concepts if they're cloaked in some sort of "divine" trappings. "After all, not MY will, but GOD'S will" was our chosen mantra. Ultimately that sort of mindless piety will prove to be our undoing. In the short run AND the long, IMNSHO...
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cman
You would have had to be involved in GSC since I was to get a handle on bits and pieces of 'my story', John.
I did enjoy your perspective here in your last post. Though to carry and say you are a professional, could be overstating the facts. But I'm ok with it, as it seems there is no better term for the line of work you are in.
---
And are you ever alone?
Really?
Do you think you can be, honestly?
Are you also watching yourself?
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John M Knapp LMSW
I remain puzzled by your posts. They seem cryptic and oblique to me. I'm hoping you can explain.
It might help if you defined what you mean by professional. I put in the time, did the work, earned the degree, earned the license, have used what I learned, and I'm pleased to say, most of my clients benefit by the work we do together. I'm a licensed psychotherapist in New York State.
Naturally, like any professional worth his or her salt, I know I have much to learn still. And every client I work with teaches me something.
I sometimes think that our belief that no one can understand what we went through in our cults is an extension of the narcissism we were indoctrinated with in our groups. It seems universal that there is some version of "our truth is superior to any other" and "we are saved and they are NOT." And a certain group of former members that no one could possibly understand. I wonder if these things are related?
I personally found it a great relief to find out there wasn't anything particularly special about my experience in Transcendental Meditation. That the broad outlines of what I went through, many thousands of people had gone through in other groups. In fact, I found it easier to talk to people from other cults than my own. I wasn't as triggered by the buzz words. It didn't engage my guilt over leaving. I felt I learned more about my cult by talking to people from TWI, JWs, Siddha Yoga, Scientology, Amway, and so many other groups people reported being abused by.
I can't know that it would be the same for you, cman. And every client I've known has had at least one surprise for me. But I've helped people work through murder, rape, suicidality, criminality, molestation, waking up screaming in the middle of the night, periods of amnesia, memory & cognitive deficits, hatred, shaming, child abuse, loss of family, loss of children -- serious pain.
It could be that being open to yourself discussing your experience with someone with a different experience and perspective might surprise you.
J.
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OperaBuff
About 10 years ago, I decided to see a psychologist. I began what turned out to be six months of weekly sessions. I'm glad I decided to do it. In a word, my experience there acted as an accelerant. My therapist pushed, pulled, probed and prodded me through a thinking process that I might never have fully accomplished on my own. He accelerated my thinking processes, which in turn accelerated my healing.
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cman
It's not the way int. i'm talking about or doctrines.
More of what has happened since.
So I'm really far from whatever twi did to me.
There is no title to what has transpired in the last 8 almost 9 years since twi.
Others can try to if they like, ok with me.
I have now and some things pushed and pulled.
But now is, and that continues without stopping.
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Linda Z
Hi again, John:
I'm puzzled as to why you haven't answered my question about deprogramming/exit counseling. In asking that question, I was not trying to start an argument with you. I simply wanted to know where you stand on that issue. And more importantly, I think it's only fair that others here have the opportunity to know the answer, since you're promoting your counseling business on GSC.
It's your right to ignore me, but it doesn't raise your credibility level, IMO, when you ignore a question that is so pertinent to the type of services you're offering.
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John M Knapp LMSW
Great story! From what I know of therapy, I know you did all the work. You deserve all the credit. Good on you!
J.
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John M Knapp LMSW
Hi, Linda Z,
I didn't mean to ignore it. I must have missed it!
Deprogramming doesn't really happen anymore. Ted Patrick was sued back in the early 80s, I believe, for forcible removal of an adult and attempting to coerce someone into leaving a cult. I believe the charges were kidnapping and similar things.
Exit counseling doesn't involve detaining someone, but it is a confrontational process of attempting to talk someone into leaving through an "intervention." Generally, the intervention is arranged for by concerned family members. In 2 to 3 days of day-long sessions, the group member is presented with information about fraudulent material about the group, the techniques of mind control used by their group, and the testimony of other former members.
I don't do either. I'm not comfortable confronting someone and trying to convince them that their group was a cult. It runs against my beliefs and temperament. It frequently doesn't work long time. It doesn't respect the right of adults to make their own decisions for themselves. It's pretty darn expensive: After paying the exit counselor's fees, travel, lodging, phone calls, and incidentals the price tag can run $10 grand, maybe more. And some exit counselors work as a team, with three or so people, confronting the group member. Really expensive.
And, even when it does work, for many people exit counseling is not enough -- challenges continue long after leaving a cult for many people. At best exit counseling is just a beginning for many people. And a good number end up going back to their original cult or drift into another one. (Many do benefit from the experience. I've never seen numbers on a success rate. I do now that a good number of the clients I've worked with underwent exit counseling and continue to have recovery issues even years later.)
I choose to work with people who have already decided to leave their group. Even then, I don't take a directive approach, meaning I don't try to convince them of anything. I strive to give everyone the respect and space to make these important decisions for themselves.
I work with something called a "brief therapy model." This means that we start planning on termination from the first time we meet. What do you want to get out of therapy? How will you know when you have met your goals? With questions like that, we start from the beginning the process of firing me and hiring you to be your own therapist.
Typically my work lasts 12 or so sessions with a client. Sometimes a person's personal needs require longer work. And to disclose fully, I have worked with some clients for a couple of years. This is unusual. But some clients are extremely damaged and require a great deal of support. The point isn't to make a career of therapy!
Now it isn't the case that every client will have dealt with all problems within 12 sessions. But in the majority of cases, clients will have learned the tools that they need to become their own therapist and continue progressing on their own.
Linda Z, I hope this answers your question. Don't hesitate to ask for further details. And I'd like to know your views of exit counseling. Did you or someone you know get involved with exit counseling?
J.
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Linda Z
Thanks for answering, John. My responses to you are in blue, below.
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Lifted Up
Sounds a lot like my deprogramming, except for the first six words, and the fact that you do not describe how the information is presented.
My question right now is, is it really both a confrontational process and one that doesn't involve detaining someone? I mean, by that someone has to agree to be confronted before the confrontation. If someone has to be detained even for a hopefully short time until they agree to "discuss" things, then that still involves detaining someone.
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Lifted Up
Thank you for the courtesy, Linda. However much or little I engage in this, I don't mind being mentioned.
There is that phrase again, more or less. And, as with Linda, I feel sure that John is interested in cman's opinion. If I posted the reason that phrase seems to stick with me though, I would be going
and besides courtesy, I have no personal desire to derail this topic.
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cman
To post one's 'story' is pretty deep imo.
Cause one would need to dig deep to bring it out..
Not many can do this fully in one shot.
So that's why I said mine is in bits and pieces all over this place.
As well as many others stories.
John, I don't think you have posted your story either.
But no big deal.
If it comes it comes.
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Lifted Up
No argument there.
It goes back to the trust we were discussing earlier.
Even if it is what I need, I certainly can't expect someone to share their personal details with me, or especially on the web to everyone.
I couldn't ask Kristen to give her account as she did, but I'm glad she did.
I can't expect more of her or anyone than what they are willing to give,
for as you would surely say in some words or others, it ain't easy.
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excathedra
i trust no one, but i love almost everyone
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Oakspear
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John M Knapp LMSW
They are not physically constrained. But they are asked to sign a contract before the start saying they won't leave. There can be heavy pressure by the exit counselor and family members not to leave.
I haven't really found that, but I've never worked for someone who felt they were coerced by exit counselors. It could be that people with that experience don't seek me out.
Thanks for your questions! Just to remind people late in the thread, I choose not to do exit counseling for some of the reasons you mention in your post, Linda.
J.
Hi, cman,
I haven't posted much here, but some of it is at my website. I don't think it's necessary for anyone to post there story, naturally. I was just curious whether you had because I was interested. I meant no pressure or offense!
If people are interested, I could try to post a summary of my story.
J.
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cman
The reason for signing a contract is so they won't be sent to jail for detaining a person against their will-kidnapping or to protect themselves from being sued. Most likely both.
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Lifted Up
I didn't see the contract mention, but someone would still have to know what he/she were signing for, like being confronted.
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excathedra
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Oakspear
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John M Knapp LMSW
Yes, I agree.
There is no confrontation in the work that I do. I believe one can deal with the feelings brought up by exploring cult involvement in relative comfort -- if both therapist and client make that one of their goals.
J.
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John M Knapp LMSW
cman,
Tonight I posted a diary on DailyKos: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/12/8/20.../454/365/670873 .
This is as close as I've ever come to telling my own story:
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waysider
Sounds so much like TWI it's creepy.
Never knew anyone who suffered from tremors but the rest of the stuff is text book.
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DogLover
I agree ... the similarities of our own "cultic organization" are incredible.
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George Aar
Wow! That's some story.
And, as others have already noted, it's always amazing to see the similarities from one cult to the next. The same seperation from "real" world, the same denial of self, and the same disconnect from basic, everyday, barnyard-variety common sense. And I don't mean to play "if you show me yours, I'll show you mine" when it comes to basic acceptance of people, but I have to admit, I wasn't exactly a fan when you first started posting. I think I've got a bit more favorable of an opinion of you now, if that means anything.
It always amazes me the extremes we'll tolerate to be "in" the group. What with now some 20 years between me and my cult daze, I can't even really tell you why I ever got so involved with WayWorld. There's some weird button someplace that cult leaders learn to push I think. I always hated my involvement with The Way, and seldom volunteered that I was a part of the organization, but there I was, every August, in that fetid cornfield in Ohio, saying "Bless you" to everybody I met. Jeezus, was that really me?
But I think the REAL problem isn't even so much giving allegiance to weird cults, but in the abandoning of reason in favor of magical thinking. The default position of opting for "God's" guidance over our own. The willingness to accept untested, unsupported, unprovable concepts if they're cloaked in some sort of "divine" trappings. "After all, not MY will, but GOD'S will" was our chosen mantra. Ultimately that sort of mindless piety will prove to be our undoing. In the short run AND the long, IMNSHO...
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