Anyway, that's it. I have no idea what your motivations really are. Your initial introduction just seriously rubbed me the wrong way, and - as can be seen from some other responses - I'm not alone in that...
Hi, George,
I hear you loud and clear. I'm seriously trying to think about how I can represent myself and my work in some better way. I'm concerned I rubbed you and others the wrong way.
There must be a way to spread the word without irritating people. I'm determined to find it.
I sincerely thank you for taking the time to speak your mind clearly. Many times criticism is more useful than kudos. I learn more from direct speech such as yours.
Please keep in touch,
J.
If you need therapy get it! If you need medication . Take It.
If you need to keep driving your older car to cut cost or whatever . Do it!
Because...YOU are Worth it!
Thank You John for caring about cult victims
Thanks cheranne, excath, Scoutfinch, for your kind words. If you guys, George, or others have some suggestions for how I can make a better first impression, I'd really appreciate the feedback. The last thing I want to do is get people's hackles up when I'm trying to help those who are looking for help!
I hear you loud and clear. I'm seriously trying to think about how I can represent myself and my work in some better way. I'm concerned I rubbed you and others the wrong way.
J.
Maybe part of the problem is that the people who post here are not running a business for profit in regards to their involvement with twi or any other cult (as you are)...it's a community of people who were involved with twi and share their thoughts on their experiences...
...now don't get me wrong...but you are running a business and people recovering from their cult experiences are your prospective clients...it doesn't really matter whether you are getting rich or just making your mortgage payment...it's the idea. You are more like the "Ads" at the top of the page than you are "one of us"...
Here's a question for you...If you were not running this business, would you be posting here?
John, I think your intentions are honorable. However, some here having been bitten once by someone offering good intentions like the late Victor Paul Wierwille are hesitant to take up generous offers such as yours without becoming suspicious and thinking trading one cult for another. Some prefer Lutheran pastor John Juddes occasionally dropping by to comment without convincing us to join his congregation out in California. Some were deprogrammed without their consent and are angry at all religion, making no distinction. Me personally, I sometimes regret ever getting involved with The Way International. I could have gotten a Masters degree in Music, been married and had children, but the lure of Scientificly researching the Bible and being told that all Christians should be ordained, knowing everything that Pastors and priests learned in seminary is mandatory for all believers was intriguing to me when I was 18/19 years old, but instead being spoon-fed what was correct doctrine and every other Christian denominational teaching was heresy and blasephemy(and the clergy/theologians knew it was but did not care) really warped my mind, taking me from 1973 through 1979 when I left, and really has never totally escaped from it nor has been complete healing process. BTW, I also belong to Classmates, Reunion, and Facebook websites. Thanks for letting me getting this off my chest.
Here's a question for you...If you were not running this business, would you be posting here?
Hi, Groucho,
Good points, and a fair question.
Before getting my degree as a therapist, I worked online helping people who had been in toxic groups and cults for 10 years. I was very active on various newsgroups, listservs, and forums. Everything I offered was free -- including my website that had many megabytes of self-help information.
Do you remember No Way Out? It was a website that was part of trancenet.net. I founded trancenet.net and worked with several individuals out of TWI to create No Way Out. Many people found it helpful. I was among the first to offer websites targeted at helping people leaving cults back in 1995.
I found that many of the people I was in touch with had serious problems in their lives even after leaving their cults. I came to the conclusion that "exit counseling" wasn't enough help for some individuals to get their lives back on track.
I saw it as an extension of my mission to get an education and professional credentials in therapy. Once I made it my full-time profession, I had to begin charging for my services. I'll point out that I continue to offer many services for free. And, yes, I have therapy clients who pay no fees because they simply can't afford them. (This number is limited, but I do what I can.)
Would I have posted on GSC if I didn't have a business? Well, I've been posting on a number of forums all along. But I found GSC because someone posted a link to my site back in September. I found GSC in my website statistics, which led me to read the site and begin posting. Since that time a number of people have become clients, so I continue to be interested in GSC.
I have posted material here not directly related to my business and intend to do so again. Because of my limited time, I'm thinking I can't really work on more than one thread at a time. But once this thread has wound down, I have one in mind to post on "Missing the Cult."
The best answer I can think to offer you is I run the business end of my work in order to pay for the free help I can offer. Not the other way around.
I'll repeat a question I asked in another post to another poster: Helping professionals of all kinds -- doctors, dentists, chiropractors, and psychotherapists -- advertise their services and charge even their neediest clients. Very few of them offer the kind of free work that I do. Do you feel they are taking advantage of people?
Now, if it is possible, I'd like to post material that is actually useful to people here. In this thread, I have largely been defending myself. I'm not sure that is of interest to too many -- or really helps anyone. But it's been taking a good portion of the time I dedicate to posting on forums.
I'd like to begin posting substantive material that may help people. My guess is that if I start posting useful content, you and other readers will be much more comfortable with my presence here than presently. So I'd like to move on from defending my practice to actually providing a service.
Would I have posted on GSC if I didn't have a business? Well, I've been posting on a number of forums all along. But I found GSC because someone posted a link to my site back in September. I found GSC in my website statistics, which led me to read the site and begin posting.
Since that time a number of people have become clients, so I continue to be interested in GSC.
I'm confident you didn't mean it QUITE the way that sounded.
Care to explain or rephrase that comment?
I have posted material here not directly related to my business and intend to do so again. Because of my limited time, I'm thinking I can't really work on more than one thread at a time. But once this thread has wound down, I have one in mind to post on "Missing the Cult."
The best answer I can think to offer you is I run the business end of my work in order to pay for the free help I can offer. Not the other way around.
I'll repeat a question I asked in another post to another poster: Helping professionals of all kinds -- doctors, dentists, chiropractors, and psychotherapists -- advertise their services and charge even their neediest clients. Very few of them offer the kind of free work that I do. Do you feel they are taking advantage of people?
Now, if it is possible, I'd like to post material that is actually useful to people here. In this thread, I have largely been defending myself. I'm not sure that is of interest to too many -- or really helps anyone. But it's been taking a good portion of the time I dedicate to posting on forums.
I'd like to begin posting substantive material that may help people. My guess is that if I start posting useful content, you and other readers will be much more comfortable with my presence here than presently. So I'd like to move on from defending my practice to actually providing a service.
In time, my work here may prove my worth to you.
Would that work for you?
J.
I think that would certainly sit better with a lot of people.
Certainly, when certain people *coughJALcough* communicate with us, it's generally both
INDIRECT ("I imagine this will somehow find its way online") and an ADVERTISEMENT
("check out our website and buy our books and tapes"), and then he vanishes,
communicating only when HE can control the venue- thus, the microphone and the rules.
Communicating HERE (or, to the point, on "neutral ground" when he's not in charge and
can't just insist something be closed, deleted, etc when he wants) is something he
gave up on a long time ago.
Certainly, continuing to post- without making each post a "buy my stuff" post- is a
positive step. Continuing open dialogue is another positive step.
I've reread the sentence you emphasized, and I guess I'm not understanding how you are taking it. Because some of my clients are active here, and they feel it's a good place to keep up with TWI matters, I continue to be interested in the site.
How did you understand it?
I have posted in the past here with substantive material. Just not a great deal.
I'm really hoping this thread will die down so that I can put some time into posting something else. I just can't keep up with two threads at once and get any work done.
For me, one of the things that make interpersonal relationships hard is my history in my splinter group. For years everything that I did was scrutinized and proved. When they couldn't find anything wrong with my points it seems that they settled on being able to completely wreck my life and put me down. This went on for years as Isaid before.
Now I seem to be pretty quick at picking up on it when folks are not being transparent. Often times it is when they simply throw verbal feelers out to see where I am at. This usually is boring and annoying for me to deal with, blech. They usually simply are not as smart as they think they are. But as many of us picked up in TWI, this is how things were done. And if an individual is "caught" in this mode of communicating they won't be "transparent" themselves then the relationship disfunction is pretty much unbearable, or at least disheartening to me.
When I consider the possibility of acredited counselling, well as a prospect I feel that it is good that you are transparent as to your intentions. BRAVO JOHN! At least we all know what to expect.
But when folks that I would just as soon be friends are caught up in cold, calculated, and ameturish analization and speculative communication with a fearful undertone after their TWI experiences I find it understandable yet a little disheartening.
My tansparent strategy is to continue being tranparent.
My tansparent strategy is to continue being tranparent.
PEACE,
JEFF
Hi, Jeff,
I really agree with you. My exiting from Transcendental Meditation and later my education as a therapist has led me to a very similar place. My watchwords are transparency, accountability, and concern for others.
I felt so much relief when I began to drop the defensiveness I developed in my cult just to survive.
Defensiveness takes so much energy! I took me a long time to even begin to become open and transparent. But it has been so worth it.
John, the distrust is probably more general than anything. Plus, you could get a pretty good argument going here if you were giving away 100 dollar bills. You didn't make a bad impression IMO.
The fact you were part of putting up Trancenet.net and helped get No Way Out going should be of interest to those who feel this kind of web posting environment is helpful.
I really agree with you. My exiting from Transcendental Meditation and later my education as a therapist has led me to a very similar place. My watchwords are transparency, accountability, and concern for others.
I felt so much relief when I began to drop the defensiveness I developed in my cult just to survive.
Defensiveness takes so much energy! I took me a long time to even begin to become open and transparent. But it has been so worth it.
Do you find something similar?
J.
Dear John, (small chuckle)
For me it's like this here at the Greasespot.
There have been many folks that blessed me a lot with their posts. There have been folks who say that they are lonely or hurting too. Every time I read something like that I feel some compassion and I wish that we could talk in a personal and maybe private manner. I'm probably not in a place to actually help too much, I'm still looking to get back on my own feet right now. But it is not for lack of willingness on my part.
I think that TWI leadership was so dishonest and harmfull that many people here have a hard time taking anyone at face value. And with many of the issues being hard to deal with in the best of circumstances and with the best of friends even that it is too easy to endlessly search for false motives in someone when the possibility of a real human contact might be a good thing. I don't hold it against them, it just gets kind of old.
I see the possibitlity or friendships with a lot of folks here. But I guess that after being damaged by a ministry that was apparently started by a predatory sociopath that I can understand why simple things might seem harder than necessary. And many of us carry the same mannerisms that for others are a reminder of hurtfull TWI leadership.
In general, I believe trust needs to be earned, and for the damaged that is something that is not earned easily.
The best answer I can think to offer you is I run the business end of my work in order to pay for the free help I can offer. Not the other way around.
Would that work for you?
J.
Fair enough John...I'm not out to hound you...
You seem sincere enough in your desire to help people...and I won't knock that. All I ask for is sincerity in your posting ...don't pretend to be "one of us" if you are here hawking business...if you want to hang out and have genuine disussions with people...that's great...if your motive is to make money off of Greasespotters...then maybe you should pay for an ad at the top of the page...know what I mean?
I do appreciate your willingness to answer questions and engage with people...this place has always served as a port in the storm for ex twiers...a place where they could connect with others who had similar experiences...there's been a lot of healing here. Forgive me if I have a protective attitude about this place...we don't want people here who are trying to make a buck off of us...I'm sure you understand....peace.
John, the distrust is probably more general than anything.
socks as well as John Knapp,
I think a little distrust is healthy and quite normal actually, as you may agree.
If one's words do not strike some kind of chord in the soul then there is not much more then talking about the weather or some other thing that isn't a deep concern. Cause I will be willing to talk to someone about heart matters if the heart of that someone can also.
Some can and do speak from the depths of their heart, knowing how to handle those who can't or won't respond in like manner. Those who do not receive or listen to what you are saying is evident, as well as those who see what one would be speaking of.
I do believe that one can know another soul to a point, with or without similar experiences. And it is this factor that differs one from actually helping another or just general advice-one sided.
Socks is right. You might even get an argument around here if you were handing out $100 bills. If you walked through the doors of the GSC announcing that the sky was blue, someone would challenge, "How do you know that?" Someone else might say, "It is not. I was just outside and the sky was grey." Others would take your side and the battle would ensue. :)
Questioning is a good thing as long as it doesn't become badgering, but I don't think it's reached that level in this thread. After all, it was not questioning that got some of us in trouble, wasn't it? So you'll just have to bear with us when we ask what's on our minds.
I've been wondering a couple things. Did you leave TM of your own volition, or did someone do an intervention or deprogram you or "exit counsel" you or whatever it's called these days? Do you feel such interventions are beneficial and healthy?
I'll be fair and tell you up front that I don't think those methods are healthy or based on good, solid, scientific evidence. I know there's at least one GSC member who was deprogrammed who would agree. I think counselling provided after someone has made up his or her mind to leave a controlling religious group can be a wonderful thing. I'm very much not convinced, though, that people should be dragged out against their will (of course I'm talking adults here).
I see the possibitlity or friendships with a lot of folks here. But I guess that after being damaged by a ministry that was apparently started by a predatory sociopath that I can understand why simple things might seem harder than necessary. And many of us carry the same mannerisms that for others are a reminder of hurtfull TWI leadership.
In general, I believe trust needs to be earned, and for the damaged that is something that is not earned easily.
JEFF
(Sigh) I suppose this is a pretty good general statement. Trust can't be demanded, but it is still important and works both ways. It takes trust to talk to others about what happened to you; it takes trust to change your way of thinking as I am guessing many others here have found out. If people got burned in TWI from the assumption of "VPW (or someone else) said it; it must be true", people are going to be wary in the after TWI world as well.
Yea, I agree that trust need to be earned, but I wonder if in some cases it just can't be done.
I'll be fair and tell you up front that I don't think those methods are healthy or based on good, solid, scientific evidence. I know there's at least one GSC member who was deprogrammed who would agree. I think counselling provided after someone has made up his or her mind to leave a controlling religious group can be a wonderful thing. I'm very much not convinced, though, that people should be dragged out against their will (of course I'm talking adults here).
I'd be interested to hear what you think.
Are you assuming too much, Linda?
NOT!
Unless you are referring to someone else; then add me. :)
I think it adds in to what I just posted a little while ago on this thread. Because I had so much stuff jammed down my throat, I have had a strong reluctance over the years to accept some of the bad. Changing my thinking involves a trust I have to give that I am not sure many understand. It makes it even harder when I don't seem to get the trust, even though I myself can picture understandable reasons for not being given the trust.
Whether or not you were referring to me, there is a trust issue I have with your ending line, as stated to me almost word for word by someone else. Sometimes I wonder how much people are interested when they say they are. Not that I am doubting your interest in what John thinks; on the contrary, I believe it is there. Anyway, that was actually the first flag that drew me to your post (Nobody knows how my mind works!)
And you did restore something in my mind with your post, though that would take too much explaining and wouldn't be appropriate here.
Well, I certainly don't know specifically what you are going through. But I've had points of common experience with every client I've ever worked with. The effects of toxic groups are more the same than they are different.
But, then again, every individual and every individual is unique. Sometimes I am truly surprised by a client or a group.
Have you posted your story here? I'd be interested in reading it.
Yes, Lifted, you were the one I was referring to, but I didn't want to name you, in case you'd rather not engage in this discussion.
And yes, I really am interested in what John thinks about what I asked him. That's why I asked.
I would like to know what his position on deprogramming/exit counselling is. It's not an accusation, just a question. If he and I disagree, that won't mean I think he's a bad person. It will just mean we disagree. :)
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John M Knapp LMSW
Hi, George,
I hear you loud and clear. I'm seriously trying to think about how I can represent myself and my work in some better way. I'm concerned I rubbed you and others the wrong way.
There must be a way to spread the word without irritating people. I'm determined to find it.
I sincerely thank you for taking the time to speak your mind clearly. Many times criticism is more useful than kudos. I learn more from direct speech such as yours.
Please keep in touch,
J.
Thanks cheranne, excath, Scoutfinch, for your kind words. If you guys, George, or others have some suggestions for how I can make a better first impression, I'd really appreciate the feedback. The last thing I want to do is get people's hackles up when I'm trying to help those who are looking for help!
J.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Maybe part of the problem is that the people who post here are not running a business for profit in regards to their involvement with twi or any other cult (as you are)...it's a community of people who were involved with twi and share their thoughts on their experiences...
...now don't get me wrong...but you are running a business and people recovering from their cult experiences are your prospective clients...it doesn't really matter whether you are getting rich or just making your mortgage payment...it's the idea. You are more like the "Ads" at the top of the page than you are "one of us"...
Here's a question for you...If you were not running this business, would you be posting here?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
John, I think your intentions are honorable. However, some here having been bitten once by someone offering good intentions like the late Victor Paul Wierwille are hesitant to take up generous offers such as yours without becoming suspicious and thinking trading one cult for another. Some prefer Lutheran pastor John Juddes occasionally dropping by to comment without convincing us to join his congregation out in California. Some were deprogrammed without their consent and are angry at all religion, making no distinction. Me personally, I sometimes regret ever getting involved with The Way International. I could have gotten a Masters degree in Music, been married and had children, but the lure of Scientificly researching the Bible and being told that all Christians should be ordained, knowing everything that Pastors and priests learned in seminary is mandatory for all believers was intriguing to me when I was 18/19 years old, but instead being spoon-fed what was correct doctrine and every other Christian denominational teaching was heresy and blasephemy(and the clergy/theologians knew it was but did not care) really warped my mind, taking me from 1973 through 1979 when I left, and really has never totally escaped from it nor has been complete healing process. BTW, I also belong to Classmates, Reunion, and Facebook websites. Thanks for letting me getting this off my chest.
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John M Knapp LMSW
Hi, Groucho,
Good points, and a fair question.
Before getting my degree as a therapist, I worked online helping people who had been in toxic groups and cults for 10 years. I was very active on various newsgroups, listservs, and forums. Everything I offered was free -- including my website that had many megabytes of self-help information.
Do you remember No Way Out? It was a website that was part of trancenet.net. I founded trancenet.net and worked with several individuals out of TWI to create No Way Out. Many people found it helpful. I was among the first to offer websites targeted at helping people leaving cults back in 1995.
I found that many of the people I was in touch with had serious problems in their lives even after leaving their cults. I came to the conclusion that "exit counseling" wasn't enough help for some individuals to get their lives back on track.
I saw it as an extension of my mission to get an education and professional credentials in therapy. Once I made it my full-time profession, I had to begin charging for my services. I'll point out that I continue to offer many services for free. And, yes, I have therapy clients who pay no fees because they simply can't afford them. (This number is limited, but I do what I can.)
Would I have posted on GSC if I didn't have a business? Well, I've been posting on a number of forums all along. But I found GSC because someone posted a link to my site back in September. I found GSC in my website statistics, which led me to read the site and begin posting. Since that time a number of people have become clients, so I continue to be interested in GSC.
I have posted material here not directly related to my business and intend to do so again. Because of my limited time, I'm thinking I can't really work on more than one thread at a time. But once this thread has wound down, I have one in mind to post on "Missing the Cult."
The best answer I can think to offer you is I run the business end of my work in order to pay for the free help I can offer. Not the other way around.
I'll repeat a question I asked in another post to another poster: Helping professionals of all kinds -- doctors, dentists, chiropractors, and psychotherapists -- advertise their services and charge even their neediest clients. Very few of them offer the kind of free work that I do. Do you feel they are taking advantage of people?
Now, if it is possible, I'd like to post material that is actually useful to people here. In this thread, I have largely been defending myself. I'm not sure that is of interest to too many -- or really helps anyone. But it's been taking a good portion of the time I dedicate to posting on forums.
I'd like to begin posting substantive material that may help people. My guess is that if I start posting useful content, you and other readers will be much more comfortable with my presence here than presently. So I'd like to move on from defending my practice to actually providing a service.
In time, my work here may prove my worth to you.
Would that work for you?
J.
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WordWolf
I'm confident you didn't mean it QUITE the way that sounded.
Care to explain or rephrase that comment?
I think that would certainly sit better with a lot of people.
Certainly, when certain people *coughJALcough* communicate with us, it's generally both
INDIRECT ("I imagine this will somehow find its way online") and an ADVERTISEMENT
("check out our website and buy our books and tapes"), and then he vanishes,
communicating only when HE can control the venue- thus, the microphone and the rules.
Communicating HERE (or, to the point, on "neutral ground" when he's not in charge and
can't just insist something be closed, deleted, etc when he wants) is something he
gave up on a long time ago.
Certainly, continuing to post- without making each post a "buy my stuff" post- is a
positive step. Continuing open dialogue is another positive step.
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cman
If you meet your master on the road, kill him - Buddhist quote
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John M Knapp LMSW
Hi, Wordwolf,
I've reread the sentence you emphasized, and I guess I'm not understanding how you are taking it. Because some of my clients are active here, and they feel it's a good place to keep up with TWI matters, I continue to be interested in the site.
How did you understand it?
I have posted in the past here with substantive material. Just not a great deal.
I'm really hoping this thread will die down so that I can put some time into posting something else. I just can't keep up with two threads at once and get any work done.
J.
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JeffSjo
Hi John,
I hope things are well with you.
For me, one of the things that make interpersonal relationships hard is my history in my splinter group. For years everything that I did was scrutinized and proved. When they couldn't find anything wrong with my points it seems that they settled on being able to completely wreck my life and put me down. This went on for years as Isaid before.
Now I seem to be pretty quick at picking up on it when folks are not being transparent. Often times it is when they simply throw verbal feelers out to see where I am at. This usually is boring and annoying for me to deal with, blech. They usually simply are not as smart as they think they are. But as many of us picked up in TWI, this is how things were done. And if an individual is "caught" in this mode of communicating they won't be "transparent" themselves then the relationship disfunction is pretty much unbearable, or at least disheartening to me.
When I consider the possibility of acredited counselling, well as a prospect I feel that it is good that you are transparent as to your intentions. BRAVO JOHN! At least we all know what to expect.
But when folks that I would just as soon be friends are caught up in cold, calculated, and ameturish analization and speculative communication with a fearful undertone after their TWI experiences I find it understandable yet a little disheartening.
My tansparent strategy is to continue being tranparent.
PEACE,
JEFF
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John M Knapp LMSW
Hi, Jeff,
I really agree with you. My exiting from Transcendental Meditation and later my education as a therapist has led me to a very similar place. My watchwords are transparency, accountability, and concern for others.
I felt so much relief when I began to drop the defensiveness I developed in my cult just to survive.
Defensiveness takes so much energy! I took me a long time to even begin to become open and transparent. But it has been so worth it.
Do you find something similar?
J.
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JeffSjo
I'm working on it, but I may be out of time now.
I'll get back to you on it.
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socks
John, the distrust is probably more general than anything. Plus, you could get a pretty good argument going here if you were giving away 100 dollar bills.
You didn't make a bad impression IMO.
The fact you were part of putting up Trancenet.net and helped get No Way Out going should be of interest to those who feel this kind of web posting environment is helpful.
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JeffSjo
Dear John, (small chuckle)
For me it's like this here at the Greasespot.
There have been many folks that blessed me a lot with their posts. There have been folks who say that they are lonely or hurting too. Every time I read something like that I feel some compassion and I wish that we could talk in a personal and maybe private manner. I'm probably not in a place to actually help too much, I'm still looking to get back on my own feet right now. But it is not for lack of willingness on my part.
I think that TWI leadership was so dishonest and harmfull that many people here have a hard time taking anyone at face value. And with many of the issues being hard to deal with in the best of circumstances and with the best of friends even that it is too easy to endlessly search for false motives in someone when the possibility of a real human contact might be a good thing. I don't hold it against them, it just gets kind of old.
I see the possibitlity or friendships with a lot of folks here. But I guess that after being damaged by a ministry that was apparently started by a predatory sociopath that I can understand why simple things might seem harder than necessary. And many of us carry the same mannerisms that for others are a reminder of hurtfull TWI leadership.
In general, I believe trust needs to be earned, and for the damaged that is something that is not earned easily.
JEFF
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GrouchoMarxJr
Fair enough John...I'm not out to hound you...
You seem sincere enough in your desire to help people...and I won't knock that. All I ask for is sincerity in your posting ...don't pretend to be "one of us" if you are here hawking business...if you want to hang out and have genuine disussions with people...that's great...if your motive is to make money off of Greasespotters...then maybe you should pay for an ad at the top of the page...know what I mean?
I do appreciate your willingness to answer questions and engage with people...this place has always served as a port in the storm for ex twiers...a place where they could connect with others who had similar experiences...there's been a lot of healing here. Forgive me if I have a protective attitude about this place...we don't want people here who are trying to make a buck off of us...I'm sure you understand....peace.
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excathedra
god, i don't feel like i'm one of us
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cman
socks as well as John Knapp,
I think a little distrust is healthy and quite normal actually, as you may agree.
If one's words do not strike some kind of chord in the soul then there is not much more then talking about the weather or some other thing that isn't a deep concern. Cause I will be willing to talk to someone about heart matters if the heart of that someone can also.
Some can and do speak from the depths of their heart, knowing how to handle those who can't or won't respond in like manner. Those who do not receive or listen to what you are saying is evident, as well as those who see what one would be speaking of.
I do believe that one can know another soul to a point, with or without similar experiences. And it is this factor that differs one from actually helping another or just general advice-one sided.
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Linda Z
Hi John:
Socks is right. You might even get an argument around here if you were handing out $100 bills. If you walked through the doors of the GSC announcing that the sky was blue, someone would challenge, "How do you know that?" Someone else might say, "It is not. I was just outside and the sky was grey." Others would take your side and the battle would ensue. :)
Questioning is a good thing as long as it doesn't become badgering, but I don't think it's reached that level in this thread. After all, it was not questioning that got some of us in trouble, wasn't it? So you'll just have to bear with us when we ask what's on our minds.
I've been wondering a couple things. Did you leave TM of your own volition, or did someone do an intervention or deprogram you or "exit counsel" you or whatever it's called these days? Do you feel such interventions are beneficial and healthy?
I'll be fair and tell you up front that I don't think those methods are healthy or based on good, solid, scientific evidence. I know there's at least one GSC member who was deprogrammed who would agree. I think counselling provided after someone has made up his or her mind to leave a controlling religious group can be a wonderful thing. I'm very much not convinced, though, that people should be dragged out against their will (of course I'm talking adults here).
I'd be interested to hear what you think.
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John M Knapp LMSW
:D
J.
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JeffSjo
Dear Excathedra,
Your sharings have had a huge impact on me from the first.
Thank you, thank you hon.
JEFF
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cman
from your website John
not likely.....
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Lifted Up
(Sigh) I suppose this is a pretty good general statement. Trust can't be demanded, but it is still important and works both ways. It takes trust to talk to others about what happened to you; it takes trust to change your way of thinking as I am guessing many others here have found out. If people got burned in TWI from the assumption of "VPW (or someone else) said it; it must be true", people are going to be wary in the after TWI world as well.
Yea, I agree that trust need to be earned, but I wonder if in some cases it just can't be done.
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Lifted Up
Are you assuming too much, Linda?
NOT!
Unless you are referring to someone else; then add me. :)
I think it adds in to what I just posted a little while ago on this thread. Because I had so much stuff jammed down my throat, I have had a strong reluctance over the years to accept some of the bad. Changing my thinking involves a trust I have to give that I am not sure many understand. It makes it even harder when I don't seem to get the trust, even though I myself can picture understandable reasons for not being given the trust.
Whether or not you were referring to me, there is a trust issue I have with your ending line, as stated to me almost word for word by someone else. Sometimes I wonder how much people are interested when they say they are. Not that I am doubting your interest in what John thinks; on the contrary, I believe it is there. Anyway, that was actually the first flag that drew me to your post (Nobody knows how my mind works!)
And you did restore something in my mind with your post, though that would take too much explaining and wouldn't be appropriate here.
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John M Knapp LMSW
Hi, Cman,
Well, I certainly don't know specifically what you are going through. But I've had points of common experience with every client I've ever worked with. The effects of toxic groups are more the same than they are different.
But, then again, every individual and every individual is unique. Sometimes I am truly surprised by a client or a group.
Have you posted your story here? I'd be interested in reading it.
J.
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Linda Z
Yes, Lifted, you were the one I was referring to, but I didn't want to name you, in case you'd rather not engage in this discussion.
And yes, I really am interested in what John thinks about what I asked him. That's why I asked.
I would like to know what his position on deprogramming/exit counselling is. It's not an accusation, just a question. If he and I disagree, that won't mean I think he's a bad person. It will just mean we disagree. :)
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cman
My story is here John.
Only 3 or 4 have seen it most completely.
But it's here in these pages.
Have you ever faced yourself?
Honestly?
Unafraid of what hides in the darkest parts of your heart?
The only one qualified is you for yourself.
Though you will not be alone.
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