My entire extended family was deeply involved in TWI and still retain beliefs from it. They are now apart of offshoots mostly with the exception of one aunt and uncle who are still members (from what I know). I am a Christian concert promoter and recently promoted a major christian act to which an aunt attended. A few night ago I was attacked for a statement that the lead singer made stating " much can be taught to Christians through illness or cancer" my family flipped out over this statement and said that he falsely indoctrinted thousands of people. My statement was that God allows it and we can be sharpened and refined through illness and an example would be Job. They said if a person gets sick it means that he is outside the shelter of God's protection for some reason (it is their own fault). It cannot be used and it is of the devil. They do not listen to any mainstream Christian music and are constantly judging people. Someone explain to me where this came from..I am about to cut them off completely! I was recently in the hospital and apparently it is because I do not have enough faith!
Hi,
I think in part it comes from a real misconception in TWI about happiness vs Joy. Hapiness is fleeting--it is WONDERFUL to be happy, but it is fleeting. Joy is what a true faith in God gives us. Nobody in their right mind stands up and says whoo hoo -- I am sick, now I will really grow!! However, joy in the Lord will sustain us through the tough times. It is often in the darkest times we do learn. . . .
Jesus himself taught us this with the cross.. . . .
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Does that mean he was HAPPY about it? No --He was on His kness sweating blood asking that the cup be passed from Him. Yet, it was God's will and He did it for the joy set before Him. I don't think it was a HAPPY time, but there was an understanding of Joy.
When we are sick and broken--it is the joy we have in Him that often grows. . . we learn in wonder and amazment the true love of God.
In part sickness CAN be a lack of faith. . . in this regard. . .(oddly TWI is more guilty of this than mainstream Christians) God has given us our bodies to steward for His Glory. When our faith is weak and we don't submit our will completely--we justify certain sin against our bodies. That is life. . . . we are never perfect and that is WHY we grow!!
That is NOT--I repeat NOT--how all people get sick!! Things happen. God never promised us a perfect time here. . . but He did promise to be with us.
As for God using things. . . He is God. . . when they mean it for evil--he uses it for good.
I think there is a real disconnect with God in TWI--making Him someone He is not. . .
Another thing to remember is that the power is in the cross. . . they eschew the cross. The power they claim in believing--it is all their own.
It seems they are confused by the things of God. . . that this world is fleeting. . .
BTW My son is a Christian Musician. He has a bunch of "Gigs" in the spring in Nashville, Chicago, Virginia. It is the first time he is going off by himself to do this. I am a nervous mom!! He knows alot of the big Christian bands. . . I have to say. . . many of these guys are amazing saints. . . truly know God and their lives reflect His glory. . . the temptations are there but, they are often such humble servants. They blow me away with their hearts.
I understand the temptation to walk away from your family in TWI. I really do. . . it hurts to be so judged. It is wrong and I know what people trapped in that world can be like. However, you have a chance to really expose them to what Christianity is and how those of us weak and broken CAN reflect the glory of God.
Sounds like you have a fun job and get to be around some GREAT Christians. . . I wish you well.
This is a bit difficult to explain because it involves several TWI doctrines intertwined.
Musically speaking, think of it as a chord rather than a single note melody.
For starters, Way doctrine teaches that they are "the one true household of God" and that God has erected a special "hedge of protection" around them. Leaving the fellowship of The Way (or varying from its doctrines) is, in their thinking, the same as venturing outside the hedge of protection, like leaving a military fortress without a weapon in times of combat.
Secondly, Way doctrine teaches that everything in life is controlled by a process known as "the law of believing". In other words, if I get run over by a dump truck, it must indicate I had a weakness in my ability to "believe" for safety. Add to this, they believe that if you speak something out loud, it will have a direct effect on your "believing". Or, to phrase it in a catchy way, "What you confess is what you'll possess."
Furthermore, they believe that all sickness is death "in part" and that The Adversary (The Devil) is the author of all sickness. They believe that cancer is caused by devil spirit possession. (VP Wierwille, incidentally, died from cancer. That presents quite a doctrinal dilemma for them.) God, on the other hand, never causes sickness or tests our faith by putting adversity in our path.
Add to that, they believe that they must hold fast to their beliefs and never allow themselves to be swayed by critical thinking or thoughtful consideration. Or, as Wierwille admonished, "Having done all, STAND!" That's why they have a need to always be "right" and will not consider any other viewpoints.
Well, that's the basics. There is, of course, more to it but that should give you some understanding of their reaction.
edited to add:
Someone asked me recently what sort of benefit could come from visiting this site. That's a valid question. Being able to provide some insight for people with questions, like motherof2, is part of the answer. (IMO)
I think it depends on who is "sick". If it's someone else, who they have NO CLUE what they are going through, the causes or lack of causes, the physical and emotional ramifications and all, it's due to lack of God's protection.. unbelief in the life of the one whom is sick..
If it is THEM.. it's not a "sickness".. it's a "challenge".. being attacked by the hosts of hell, an "opportunity" to rise up and BELIEVE..
after all, *we* know *we* are right, don't we?
I think it's a sickness or blindness, in the head. That's probably why it is so frustrating to deal with..
In TWI think, weakness of any sort--anything that is less than perfect--is of the Adversary--and someone else's weakness can affect Your good believing and bring disaster to you. Being judgemental and critical of others is considered spiritual maturity--because you are keeping weakness away from you.
If you are sick, it was your lack of believing. The proper reponse to illness is to get rid of it via a miracle or ministering. If that doesn't happen, then the best thing is to try to ignore and hide the illness, and continue on with your ministry responsibilities.
Rarely will anyone in the TWI household offer to help someone dealing with illness other than ministering or prayer--you have to ask for help, and of course it comes with strings attached. If you need lots of help you are a burden to God's people. They also rarely help with other life events such as births and deaths. For help in those times you need to rely on your natural man, earthly family.
Chronic illness, like diabetes, means you have some form of chronic weakness in your life, an open door to the Adversary. You maybe be reproved and rebuked for this illness. No conmfort there.
In fact, in TWI it wasn't uncommon for parents of young children to be reproved alot about childhood illneses like ear infections.
One one of my kids was very ill--pnuemonia, double ear infections, throat infection, following a cold. Kid missed 21 days of kindergarten, (and when school got out we got the tonsils out--but by then we had left TWI). But during that time when the child was sooo ill--we didn't tell anyone in our fellowship. We didn't take the child to evening fellowships anyway because we couldn't get home until 2 hours after kids's bedtime.
I chose not to bring it up during twig prayers because I knew after fellowship I would get nailed by the coordinator for my lack of believing--and I was afraid that would make my believing even worse because of the added fear. Kid wasn't in the hospital, I didn't want kid in the hospital!
Ugly doctrine makes ugly people. Hard times due to illness are made much worse bythe attitude of the believers. I'm so glad to be out of that stuff.
Indeed, the biggest cause of the "look-down-on-the-sick" attitude was the false teaching of "the law of believing." If you had health problems, or financial difficulties, it was your lack of believing, and so it was "your own fault." This wasn't limited to TWI, though. There are many other Christians who hold such ideas. It largely started with E. W. Kenyon, and is continued by such preachers as Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, and Charles Capps. They all focus on the "power of words" and the "power of confession" and many of the same type of ideas we learned in TWI. I have even heard it said that if you are sick or poor, it is a sin!
It is largely based on misinterpretations of Bible passages such as Isaiah 53:5, John 10:10, and III John 2. These and others were taken out of context and used as "proof texts." God wants "above all things" for you to prosper and be in health, so if you aren't prospering and in health, you are contrary to God's will, and therefore sinning. But a closer examination of those verses reveals what they actually mean, and taken together with other verses we are told that we are in a fallen world and can expect suffering until the Lord returns. God can and does deliver many times, but it is nowhere guaranteed, and nowhere are we told we have the right to demand it. And there are, in fact, Biblical references to God turning our sickness and suffering into a learning experience. I have written in detail about this on my website, for anyone who's interested.
because of twi's stance on illness, and especially certain illnesses that they claimed were caused by devil spirits, I lived with severe post-partum depression and a long-time anxiety disorder that I could have got help for.
it turns out that the anxiety disorder became worse and worse BECAUSE of twi and my ex-husband, who used twi leadership to help him "keep me in line". I eventually started getting additional physical sicknesses because of the constant, ongoing stress.
sickness happens. people get depressed. if someone is beaten often enough and erratically enough, they will develop some kind of psychological disorder. the sick person didn't ask for it. the only thing I have learned is that keeping the blamers and beaters in your life won't let you get better, or let you learn to deal with a permanent condition.
I'm also very curious about Wierwille and his devil-spirit cancer... just how long did he have it, for it to metastasize from his eye to his liver? how far back should his followers go to throw out his teachings because he was devil-possessed?
I'm also very curious about Wierwille and his devil-spirit cancer... just how long did he have it, for it to metastasize from his eye to his liver? how far back should his followers go to throw out his teachings because he was devil-possessed?
"Malignant melanoma, or intraocular melanoma, is the most common of all tumors that originate in the eye. Little is known concerning the cause of malignant melanomas. Unlike skin or conjunctiva melanomas, sunlight exposure is not related to these tumors. This type grows from melanin-laden cells in the choroid, iris, or ciliary body. Usually slow to grow and metastasize, it generally affects one eye only and may develop spontaneously or from a mole within the eye. The onset may be at any age, and it is more common among whites than blacks and more often in people who have skin melanoma. According to the US Department of Health and Human Services, malignant melanomas account for up to 80% of all eye malignancies, making them the most common primary (originating in the eye) inner-eye tumor. Nevertheless, little is known about the cause and progression of these tumors.
Symptoms include redness, inflammation, loss of vision, and the presence or development of glaucoma. Pupil distortion may be present in melanoma of the iris. A melanoma can be detected in an examination. It may first appear to be a choroidal hemorrhage, but can be identified further by fluorescein angiography or ultrasonography. Melanomas of the iris are extremely slow-growing and are often treated during observation. Approximately 60% of those diagnosed and treated for malignant melanomas are alive five years after treatment.
Clinical trials to test other treatment methods are ongoing; but three types of treatment are commonly used: surgery, radiation therapy, and photocoagulation.
* Surgery is the most common treatment, which can involve removing all of the diseased eye (enucleation) or just a portion of it.
* Radiation uses X-rays and other high-energy rays to kill cancer cells and shrink tumors. It can be used by itself, or in combination with surgery.
* Photocoagulation treats the melanoma by destroying blood vessels with a tiny beam of light, usually from a laser. Destroying the blood vessels kills the tumor."
When I first became involved with The Way, in 1972, I heard stories of how "Doctor" had burned his eyes out filming PLAF (The Wonder Class). That filming took place in 1967. So, his eye problems date back, at the very latest to 1972 when this story was circulating. Later, after his eye had been removed, VP is quoted as saying, "I gave my eye for The Word. What have you given?"
Even if you can get past this obvious self-martyrdom, he also taught that alcoholism and sexual predation are caused by a devil spirits. (Pages 20 & 21 of the Advanced Class Silly-Bust for those who desire to look it up.) I'm sure by now, most people who have spent any time at Grease Spot Cafe realize the man was in an almost constant state of alcohol induced stupor and viciously preyed upon young TWI women for sexual gratification. So, by his own definition, the man must have been virtually overflowing with devil spirits. Why did no one detect it through the operation of "discerning of spirits" that he taught in The Advanced Class? Of course, if he was wrong about devil spirits causing these things, he could have been wrong about any and everything he ever taught. His credibility is worthless. (IMO)
for people still stuck on the twi hamster wheel, the alcoholism and sexual predation are only ALLEGED at best and vindictive accusations by bitter ex-followers at worst, but vpw's cancer is documented.
but the bottom line is, making the class did not cost vpw his eye. by twi logic, vpw was possessed with devils for god knows how long, and obviously he walked outside of god's protection for A LONG TIME because the cancer killed him.
motherof2, if you can't ignore what your family says to you, tell them your believing is your business and not theirs, and if believing is all it takes then why was victor paul wierwille possessed with a spirit of cancer? FOR YEARS???
because of twi's stance on illness, and especially certain illnesses that they claimed were caused by devil spirits, I lived with severe post-partum depression and a long-time anxiety disorder that I could have got help for.
Did you eventually get the help you needed?
Many people with mood disorders initially deny there are problems and organizations, such as TWI, allow people to live in that denial as the organization itself is in denial. The structure allows for many to exist and even thrive without counseling or medications. Some are able to "fake it 'til you make it." What is wrong is when that doesn't work and your "support" is a self-centered abusing control freak who claims to be acting within the boundaries of a group who is in denial about mental health issues.
What is important to remember is there have been significant social stigmas attached to mood disorders that (have) interfere(d) with people seeking treatment even outside TWI, and it is not alone in pronouncing psychological problems as spiritual in nature.
Potato, I am certainly not excusing the behavior of your husband or TWI in your situation. I am only pointing out that TWI isn't the only religious organization that is flawed in this area.
It directly comes from the TWI falsehood of the "law of believing", an insidious, syphilitic lie that infiltrated every aspect of twi doctrine and culture.
To fully understand it and unravel what it morphed to, read this written by John Juedes:
VP Wierwille's need for control, and his fear of death contributed to the contorted viewpoint that wayers share about sickness and death. It is a gross distortion of how believers are supposed to be loving, kind and supportive of those in need, and in no way represents godliness.
Weeeeell, if it was me, I'd suggest they talk to the person who said it and unleash their bounty of good will and biblical research on them instead of whining to me . But that's just me.
Potato, I am certainly not excusing the behavior of your husband or TWI in your situation. I am only pointing out that TWI isn't the only religious organization that is flawed in this area.
thanks Tzaia, I have, and am, getting the help I need, which is the reason I was able to get out of twi and my train wreck of a marriage.
I know twi isn't the only group of zealots with the same flaw, which is why I decided to give up my christian citizenship and declare myself my own country, with no religious affiliation
and socks, that's an EXCELLENT suggestion. if they come to a concert and want to complain, then they should do it to the band, not the promoter!
gosh, if you turn your back on work because some lyric isn't perfectly in accord with twi doctrine, then the only group you'll have left to promote is the freaking singing ladies/way prod, and they don't sully themselves with performances outside the fold (thank GOD!)
I wish I knew how to highlight what another posted and put it here...but what Geisha said in the entire paragraph that starts with..."In part sickness CAN be..." is so profound.
We can and do bring a lot of stuff on ourselves. Example.....eat KFC everyday, tater chips, processed foods, drink a six pack of soda pops, smoke a gazillion cigarettes everyday and never exercise. We have health problems? Noohh??? Go figger... God "allowed" it?
"Allowing" would be more fitting in the doctrinal forum as I re-think about posting here concerning that issue.
TWI would not win a humanitarian award for reaching out and touching the leper. We remember that teaching.....it was in word only. Really, were we taught application...heart of that? TWI had no flippin clue...it would first have to be analized to find out who committed the sin then analized some more.
I'm totally mystefied by the hold TWI theology has on its followers.
Mainly how people could continue clinging to such false consciousness
still to this day when the leadership was found to have in some cases defrauded
them or in more serious instances misabused their power ------
SNIP
The following is only my opinion:
I believe a real turning point for many TWI followers was session #7 of the PFAL class.
It was in this session that Wierwille taught that Eve was deceived by Satan because she stopped to "consider" what he was saying. The essence of the lesson was that we, too, would be tricked by Satan if we ever allowed ourselves to examine was was being presented in a critical and logical manner. Instead, we were admonished to never consider conflicting viewpoints but, rather, to "STAND!" and never be swayed in our thinking.
This partly explains their stubborn insistence to always be "right".
In addition, we were encouraged to study accounts of people who had exhibited extreme dedication, such as Brother Andrew (God's Smuggler) and Cory ten Boom (The Hiding Place) and strive to achieve that sort of high level commitment.
And, of course, it was widely promoted that if one were to ever leave the "protective hedge" that the "household" provided, dire consequences were sure to follow the individual and their loved ones. Some people who were willing to take that risk with their own lives were much more reluctant to jeopardize the safety of their spouses and children.
I know it's probably still hard to understand but I hope that gives you a bit of insight.
if you want to keep some lines of communication open, maybe don't argue with them.. I think it just feeds the beast.. it actually gives them the polarity that they WANT. Some people in, their self-worth depends on being different, being right, at least in their own eyes..
another thing to consider.. practically EVERY SINGLE "leader" in that organization were trained by, with or followed the man who could "biblically" convince staff it was a godly thing to "loan" him their wives (documented in at least one instance), or enabled him..
to argue with them, is just to argue with insanity, in my opinion..
I'm motherof2's husband, and I've joined in the discussion because
I'm totally mystefied by the hold TWI theology has on its followers.
Mainly how people could continue clinging to such false consciousness
still to this day when the leadership was found to have in some cases defrauded
them or in more serious instances misabused their power to cuckold
spouses of followers they lusted for and desired among the many other cases of malfeasance.
I mean this is powerful stuff; lightning in a bottle.
When you can pull off wifeswapping in the name of Christ,
you have a serious control.
In fairness to the adherents (who are guilty
only insofar as they longed to be filled with a meaning
for their lives that only God can satisfy which TWI took supreme
advantage of) is it possible the collective memory of the powerfully
strong and meaningful experiences of a bonded community of adherents
is stronger than the distaste of betrayal and it
keeps people clinging in the face of todays shallow connectivity in a
mainly wired world. Or is it the kind of pride that ignores
failure beacuse it would negate the real communal expereinces described above
and continues to morph upstream to keep the proverbail fire burning?
Whatever it is, it's like a virus whose wild spread growth has been
stunted for sure, but is it now dormant but still living amongst us
waiting to rear it's ugly head again like a dogmatic ebola?
It's crazy how her relatives act; what can be done????
I don't know if it is fair to say those who adhere to TWI doctrine are only guilty of being taken advantage of. . . There is enough out here now to enlighten even the most stubborn among us, that TWI is an aberant belief system.
That sense of community and being connected seems to be a strong attraction for many, and rightly you have pinpointed how that can serve to keep one engaged.
However earnest a seeker we once were. . . . when you go from a caring unbeliever with a modicum of decency and propriety to a judgemental jerk by way of "Christian Doctrine" it might be time to rethink things.
I don't think we need to lose our humanity to continue in a community and certainly not to serve God.
The only thing I know to be done is to be an example. . . doctrinal discussions are pointless when one has an answer for everything due to some expert INdoctrination. . . . but it sure used to make me VERY uncomfortable when I saw "Carnal Christians" actually living their faith in love and service.
How they went and saw that concert and all those Christians there and walked away with that choice tidbit. . . is just telling. Keep inviting them---challenge them OUT of their comfort zone of "Community".
My entire extended family was deeply involved in TWI and still retain beliefs from it. They are now apart of offshoots mostly with the exception of one aunt and uncle who are still members (from what I know). I am a Christian concert promoter and recently promoted a major christian act to which an aunt attended. A few night ago I was attacked for a statement that the lead singer made stating " much can be taught to Christians through illness or cancer" my family flipped out over this statement and said that he falsely indoctrinted thousands of people. My statement was that God allows it and we can be sharpened and refined through illness and an example would be Job.
They said if a person gets sick it means that he is outside the shelter of God's protection for some reason (it is their own fault). It cannot be used and it is of the devil. They do not listen to any mainstream Christian music and are constantly judging people. Someone explain to me where this came from..I am about to cut them off completely! I was recently in the hospital and apparently it is because I do not have enough faith!
Indeed, the biggest cause of the "look-down-on-the-sick" attitude was the false teaching of "the law of believing." If you had health problems, or financial difficulties, it was your lack of believing, and so it was "your own fault." This wasn't limited to TWI, though. There are many other Christians who hold such ideas. It largely started with E. W. Kenyon, and is continued by such preachers as Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, and Charles Capps. They all focus on the "power of words" and the "power of confession" and many of the same type of ideas we learned in TWI. I have even heard it said that if you are sick or poor, it is a sin!
It is largely based on misinterpretations of Bible passages such as Isaiah 53:5, John 10:10, and III John 2. These and others were taken out of context and used as "proof texts." God wants "above all things" for you to prosper and be in health, so if you aren't prospering and in health, you are contrary to God's will, and therefore sinning. But a closer examination of those verses reveals what they actually mean, and taken together with other verses we are told that we are in a fallen world and can expect suffering until the Lord returns. God can and does deliver many times, but it is nowhere guaranteed, and nowhere are we told we have the right to demand it. And there are, in fact, Biblical references to God turning our sickness and suffering into a learning experience. I have written in detail about this on my website, for anyone who's interested.
For those of you who are unclear how basic this so-called "LAW" of believing is,
I will document it a little.
Right in pfal (and the accompanying orange book), we have this:
"Orange Book, page 44.
"What one fears will surely come to pass. It is a law. Have you ever heard about
people who set the time of their death? When somebody says 'Well, this time next
year I will not be here', if you are a betting man, bet your money, you are going to
win. If a person makes up his mind that this time next year he is going to be dead,
God would have to change the laws of the universe for the person not to be
accomodated."
In "The Bible Tells Me So" (the blue book), we have this:
"Blue Book, page 43-44.
"You may believe rightly or wrongly. Believing works both ways, and you bring to
yourself whatever you believe."
page 44.
"Fear, worry and anxiety are types of believing. If you worry, have fear and are
anxious you will receive the fruit of your negative believing which is defeat."
Page 44.
"The law of believing works equally effectively for both the sinner and the saint..."
They say that your "believing" determines the things that happen to you,
and can prevent bad things from happening to you.
Of course, nobody in twi has been able to "believe" for winning a big lottery
How people can just sit around though.. and debate doctrinal trivialities like there's no tomorrow.. and keep both eyes closed to or justify rampant abuse and bad behavior.. yeah, I was there once too.. I made excuses for loy's and others foul mouths every bit as efficiently as others..
It must be something in the water..
and it goes on and on.. I think you are right about the ebola or mold analogy..
the very last twi offshoot meeting I attended.. a few years ago.. the main teaching in a nutshell:
"why everybody who doesn't think like us are possessed, or at least greatly influenced by debils.."
no kidding..
I smiled, bobbed my head up and down like everybody else.. left after the meeting.. took a long hot shower, and never went back..
I don't know if it is fair to say those who adhere to TWI doctrine are only guilty of being taken advantage of. . . There is enough out here now to enlighten even the most stubborn among us, that TWI is an aberant belief system.
That sense of community and being connected seems to be a strong attraction for many, and rightly you have pinpointed how that can serve to keep one engaged.
However earnest a seeker we once were. . . . when you go from a caring unbeliever with a modicum of decency and propriety to a judgemental jerk by way of "Christian Doctrine" it might be time to rethink things.
I don't think we need to lose our humanity to continue in a community and certainly not to serve God.
The only thing I know to be done is to be an example. . . doctrinal discussions are pointless when one has an answer for everything due to some expert INdoctrination. . . . but it sure used to make me VERY uncomfortable when I saw "Carnal Christians" actually living their faith in love and service.
How they went and saw that concert and all those Christians there and walked away with that choice tidbit. . . is just telling. Keep inviting them---challenge them OUT of their comfort zone of "Community".
I don't know if it is fair to say those who adhere to TWI doctrine are only guilty of being taken advantage of. . . There is enough out here now to enlighten even the most stubborn among us, that TWI is an aberant belief system.
That sense of community and being connected seems to be a strong attraction for many, and rightly you have pinpointed how that can serve to keep one engaged.
However earnest a seeker we once were. . . . when you go from a caring unbeliever with a modicum of decency and propriety to a judgemental jerk by way of "Christian Doctrine" it might be time to rethink things.
I don't think we need to lose our humanity to continue in a community and certainly not to serve God.
The only thing I know to be done is to be an example. . . doctrinal discussions are pointless when one has an answer for everything due to some expert INdoctrination. . . . but it sure used to make me VERY uncomfortable when I saw "Carnal Christians" actually living their faith in love and service.
How they went and saw that concert and all those Christians there and walked away with that choice tidbit. . . is just telling. Keep inviting them---challenge them OUT of their comfort zone of "Community".
here's something that really helped me understand why people stay in: study up on narcissistic personality disorder, particularly in domestic relationships and in the church.
the people who are most easily manipulated by narcissists are the ones they target and groom. victims aren't necessarily out looking for someone to control and abuse them, in fact when twi got their claws in me I was actively trying to recover from the way I was raised, but narcissists are ALWAYS on the lookout for people who are susceptible, which is why twi and my ex-husband swooped in and so effectively changed my life in a very short period of time from an independent thinker to someone almost completely helpless.
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geisha779
Hi,
I think in part it comes from a real misconception in TWI about happiness vs Joy. Hapiness is fleeting--it is WONDERFUL to be happy, but it is fleeting. Joy is what a true faith in God gives us. Nobody in their right mind stands up and says whoo hoo -- I am sick, now I will really grow!! However, joy in the Lord will sustain us through the tough times. It is often in the darkest times we do learn. . . .
Jesus himself taught us this with the cross.. . . .
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Does that mean he was HAPPY about it? No --He was on His kness sweating blood asking that the cup be passed from Him. Yet, it was God's will and He did it for the joy set before Him. I don't think it was a HAPPY time, but there was an understanding of Joy.
When we are sick and broken--it is the joy we have in Him that often grows. . . we learn in wonder and amazment the true love of God.
In part sickness CAN be a lack of faith. . . in this regard. . .(oddly TWI is more guilty of this than mainstream Christians) God has given us our bodies to steward for His Glory. When our faith is weak and we don't submit our will completely--we justify certain sin against our bodies. That is life. . . . we are never perfect and that is WHY we grow!!
That is NOT--I repeat NOT--how all people get sick!! Things happen. God never promised us a perfect time here. . . but He did promise to be with us.
As for God using things. . . He is God. . . when they mean it for evil--he uses it for good.
I think there is a real disconnect with God in TWI--making Him someone He is not. . .
Another thing to remember is that the power is in the cross. . . they eschew the cross. The power they claim in believing--it is all their own.
It seems they are confused by the things of God. . . that this world is fleeting. . .
BTW My son is a Christian Musician. He has a bunch of "Gigs" in the spring in Nashville, Chicago, Virginia. It is the first time he is going off by himself to do this. I am a nervous mom!! He knows alot of the big Christian bands. . . I have to say. . . many of these guys are amazing saints. . . truly know God and their lives reflect His glory. . . the temptations are there but, they are often such humble servants. They blow me away with their hearts.
I understand the temptation to walk away from your family in TWI. I really do. . . it hurts to be so judged. It is wrong and I know what people trapped in that world can be like. However, you have a chance to really expose them to what Christianity is and how those of us weak and broken CAN reflect the glory of God.
Sounds like you have a fun job and get to be around some GREAT Christians. . . I wish you well.
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waysider
This is a bit difficult to explain because it involves several TWI doctrines intertwined.
Musically speaking, think of it as a chord rather than a single note melody.
For starters, Way doctrine teaches that they are "the one true household of God" and that God has erected a special "hedge of protection" around them. Leaving the fellowship of The Way (or varying from its doctrines) is, in their thinking, the same as venturing outside the hedge of protection, like leaving a military fortress without a weapon in times of combat.
Secondly, Way doctrine teaches that everything in life is controlled by a process known as "the law of believing". In other words, if I get run over by a dump truck, it must indicate I had a weakness in my ability to "believe" for safety. Add to this, they believe that if you speak something out loud, it will have a direct effect on your "believing". Or, to phrase it in a catchy way, "What you confess is what you'll possess."
Furthermore, they believe that all sickness is death "in part" and that The Adversary (The Devil) is the author of all sickness. They believe that cancer is caused by devil spirit possession. (VP Wierwille, incidentally, died from cancer. That presents quite a doctrinal dilemma for them.) God, on the other hand, never causes sickness or tests our faith by putting adversity in our path.
Add to that, they believe that they must hold fast to their beliefs and never allow themselves to be swayed by critical thinking or thoughtful consideration. Or, as Wierwille admonished, "Having done all, STAND!" That's why they have a need to always be "right" and will not consider any other viewpoints.
Well, that's the basics. There is, of course, more to it but that should give you some understanding of their reaction.
edited to add:
Someone asked me recently what sort of benefit could come from visiting this site. That's a valid question. Being able to provide some insight for people with questions, like motherof2, is part of the answer. (IMO)
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Ham
I think it depends on who is "sick". If it's someone else, who they have NO CLUE what they are going through, the causes or lack of causes, the physical and emotional ramifications and all, it's due to lack of God's protection.. unbelief in the life of the one whom is sick..
If it is THEM.. it's not a "sickness".. it's a "challenge".. being attacked by the hosts of hell, an "opportunity" to rise up and BELIEVE..
after all, *we* know *we* are right, don't we?
I think it's a sickness or blindness, in the head. That's probably why it is so frustrating to deal with..
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Bramble
In TWI think, weakness of any sort--anything that is less than perfect--is of the Adversary--and someone else's weakness can affect Your good believing and bring disaster to you. Being judgemental and critical of others is considered spiritual maturity--because you are keeping weakness away from you.
If you are sick, it was your lack of believing. The proper reponse to illness is to get rid of it via a miracle or ministering. If that doesn't happen, then the best thing is to try to ignore and hide the illness, and continue on with your ministry responsibilities.
Rarely will anyone in the TWI household offer to help someone dealing with illness other than ministering or prayer--you have to ask for help, and of course it comes with strings attached. If you need lots of help you are a burden to God's people. They also rarely help with other life events such as births and deaths. For help in those times you need to rely on your natural man, earthly family.
Chronic illness, like diabetes, means you have some form of chronic weakness in your life, an open door to the Adversary. You maybe be reproved and rebuked for this illness. No conmfort there.
In fact, in TWI it wasn't uncommon for parents of young children to be reproved alot about childhood illneses like ear infections.
One one of my kids was very ill--pnuemonia, double ear infections, throat infection, following a cold. Kid missed 21 days of kindergarten, (and when school got out we got the tonsils out--but by then we had left TWI). But during that time when the child was sooo ill--we didn't tell anyone in our fellowship. We didn't take the child to evening fellowships anyway because we couldn't get home until 2 hours after kids's bedtime.
I chose not to bring it up during twig prayers because I knew after fellowship I would get nailed by the coordinator for my lack of believing--and I was afraid that would make my believing even worse because of the added fear. Kid wasn't in the hospital, I didn't want kid in the hospital!
Ugly doctrine makes ugly people. Hard times due to illness are made much worse bythe attitude of the believers. I'm so glad to be out of that stuff.
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Mark Clarke
Indeed, the biggest cause of the "look-down-on-the-sick" attitude was the false teaching of "the law of believing." If you had health problems, or financial difficulties, it was your lack of believing, and so it was "your own fault." This wasn't limited to TWI, though. There are many other Christians who hold such ideas. It largely started with E. W. Kenyon, and is continued by such preachers as Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, and Charles Capps. They all focus on the "power of words" and the "power of confession" and many of the same type of ideas we learned in TWI. I have even heard it said that if you are sick or poor, it is a sin!
It is largely based on misinterpretations of Bible passages such as Isaiah 53:5, John 10:10, and III John 2. These and others were taken out of context and used as "proof texts." God wants "above all things" for you to prosper and be in health, so if you aren't prospering and in health, you are contrary to God's will, and therefore sinning. But a closer examination of those verses reveals what they actually mean, and taken together with other verses we are told that we are in a fallen world and can expect suffering until the Lord returns. God can and does deliver many times, but it is nowhere guaranteed, and nowhere are we told we have the right to demand it. And there are, in fact, Biblical references to God turning our sickness and suffering into a learning experience. I have written in detail about this on my website, for anyone who's interested.
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potato
because of twi's stance on illness, and especially certain illnesses that they claimed were caused by devil spirits, I lived with severe post-partum depression and a long-time anxiety disorder that I could have got help for.
it turns out that the anxiety disorder became worse and worse BECAUSE of twi and my ex-husband, who used twi leadership to help him "keep me in line". I eventually started getting additional physical sicknesses because of the constant, ongoing stress.
sickness happens. people get depressed. if someone is beaten often enough and erratically enough, they will develop some kind of psychological disorder. the sick person didn't ask for it. the only thing I have learned is that keeping the blamers and beaters in your life won't let you get better, or let you learn to deal with a permanent condition.
I'm also very curious about Wierwille and his devil-spirit cancer... just how long did he have it, for it to metastasize from his eye to his liver? how far back should his followers go to throw out his teachings because he was devil-possessed?
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waysider
http://www.innvista.com/health/ailments/eyeail/eyecanc.htm
"Malignant melanoma, or intraocular melanoma, is the most common of all tumors that originate in the eye. Little is known concerning the cause of malignant melanomas. Unlike skin or conjunctiva melanomas, sunlight exposure is not related to these tumors. This type grows from melanin-laden cells in the choroid, iris, or ciliary body. Usually slow to grow and metastasize, it generally affects one eye only and may develop spontaneously or from a mole within the eye. The onset may be at any age, and it is more common among whites than blacks and more often in people who have skin melanoma. According to the US Department of Health and Human Services, malignant melanomas account for up to 80% of all eye malignancies, making them the most common primary (originating in the eye) inner-eye tumor. Nevertheless, little is known about the cause and progression of these tumors.
Symptoms include redness, inflammation, loss of vision, and the presence or development of glaucoma. Pupil distortion may be present in melanoma of the iris. A melanoma can be detected in an examination. It may first appear to be a choroidal hemorrhage, but can be identified further by fluorescein angiography or ultrasonography. Melanomas of the iris are extremely slow-growing and are often treated during observation. Approximately 60% of those diagnosed and treated for malignant melanomas are alive five years after treatment.
Clinical trials to test other treatment methods are ongoing; but three types of treatment are commonly used: surgery, radiation therapy, and photocoagulation.
* Surgery is the most common treatment, which can involve removing all of the diseased eye (enucleation) or just a portion of it.
* Radiation uses X-rays and other high-energy rays to kill cancer cells and shrink tumors. It can be used by itself, or in combination with surgery.
* Photocoagulation treats the melanoma by destroying blood vessels with a tiny beam of light, usually from a laser. Destroying the blood vessels kills the tumor."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I first became involved with The Way, in 1972, I heard stories of how "Doctor" had burned his eyes out filming PLAF (The Wonder Class). That filming took place in 1967. So, his eye problems date back, at the very latest to 1972 when this story was circulating. Later, after his eye had been removed, VP is quoted as saying, "I gave my eye for The Word. What have you given?"
Even if you can get past this obvious self-martyrdom, he also taught that alcoholism and sexual predation are caused by a devil spirits. (Pages 20 & 21 of the Advanced Class Silly-Bust for those who desire to look it up.) I'm sure by now, most people who have spent any time at Grease Spot Cafe realize the man was in an almost constant state of alcohol induced stupor and viciously preyed upon young TWI women for sexual gratification. So, by his own definition, the man must have been virtually overflowing with devil spirits. Why did no one detect it through the operation of "discerning of spirits" that he taught in The Advanced Class? Of course, if he was wrong about devil spirits causing these things, he could have been wrong about any and everything he ever taught. His credibility is worthless. (IMO)
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excathedra
try not to get caught up in all this nonsense
if you can find it in yourself, just ignore them and everybody else
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potato
waysider, there's also choroidal melanoma, which might be at least contributed to (not caused) by sunlight exposure.
http://www.emedicine.com/oph/topic403.htm
for people still stuck on the twi hamster wheel, the alcoholism and sexual predation are only ALLEGED at best and vindictive accusations by bitter ex-followers at worst, but vpw's cancer is documented.
but the bottom line is, making the class did not cost vpw his eye. by twi logic, vpw was possessed with devils for god knows how long, and obviously he walked outside of god's protection for A LONG TIME because the cancer killed him.
motherof2, if you can't ignore what your family says to you, tell them your believing is your business and not theirs, and if believing is all it takes then why was victor paul wierwille possessed with a spirit of cancer? FOR YEARS???
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Tzaia
Did you eventually get the help you needed?
Many people with mood disorders initially deny there are problems and organizations, such as TWI, allow people to live in that denial as the organization itself is in denial. The structure allows for many to exist and even thrive without counseling or medications. Some are able to "fake it 'til you make it." What is wrong is when that doesn't work and your "support" is a self-centered abusing control freak who claims to be acting within the boundaries of a group who is in denial about mental health issues.
What is important to remember is there have been significant social stigmas attached to mood disorders that (have) interfere(d) with people seeking treatment even outside TWI, and it is not alone in pronouncing psychological problems as spiritual in nature.
Potato, I am certainly not excusing the behavior of your husband or TWI in your situation. I am only pointing out that TWI isn't the only religious organization that is flawed in this area.
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now I see
It directly comes from the TWI falsehood of the "law of believing", an insidious, syphilitic lie that infiltrated every aspect of twi doctrine and culture.
To fully understand it and unravel what it morphed to, read this written by John Juedes:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/editor...god-needed.html
VP Wierwille's need for control, and his fear of death contributed to the contorted viewpoint that wayers share about sickness and death. It is a gross distortion of how believers are supposed to be loving, kind and supportive of those in need, and in no way represents godliness.
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socks
Weeeeell, if it was me, I'd suggest they talk to the person who said it and unleash their bounty of good will and biblical research on them instead of whining to me . But that's just me.
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potato
thanks Tzaia, I have, and am, getting the help I need, which is the reason I was able to get out of twi and my train wreck of a marriage.
I know twi isn't the only group of zealots with the same flaw, which is why I decided to give up my christian citizenship and declare myself my own country, with no religious affiliation
and socks, that's an EXCELLENT suggestion. if they come to a concert and want to complain, then they should do it to the band, not the promoter!
gosh, if you turn your back on work because some lyric isn't perfectly in accord with twi doctrine, then the only group you'll have left to promote is the freaking singing ladies/way prod, and they don't sully themselves with performances outside the fold (thank GOD!)
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kimberly
I wish I knew how to highlight what another posted and put it here...but what Geisha said in the entire paragraph that starts with..."In part sickness CAN be..." is so profound.
We can and do bring a lot of stuff on ourselves. Example.....eat KFC everyday, tater chips, processed foods, drink a six pack of soda pops, smoke a gazillion cigarettes everyday and never exercise. We have health problems? Noohh??? Go figger... God "allowed" it?
"Allowing" would be more fitting in the doctrinal forum as I re-think about posting here concerning that issue.
TWI would not win a humanitarian award for reaching out and touching the leper. We remember that teaching.....it was in word only. Really, were we taught application...heart of that? TWI had no flippin clue...it would first have to be analized to find out who committed the sin then analized some more.
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bewareofthevictorwerewolf
I'm motherof2's husband, and I've joined in the discussion because
I'm totally mystefied by the hold TWI theology has on its followers.
Mainly how people could continue clinging to such false consciousness
still to this day when the leadership was found to have in some cases defrauded
them or in more serious instances misabused their power to cuckold
spouses of followers they lusted for and desired among the many other cases of malfeasance.
I mean this is powerful stuff; lightning in a bottle.
When you can pull off wifeswapping in the name of Christ,
you have a serious control.
In fairness to the adherents (who are guilty
only insofar as they longed to be filled with a meaning
for their lives that only God can satisfy which TWI took supreme
advantage of) is it possible the collective memory of the powerfully
strong and meaningful experiences of a bonded community of adherents
is stronger than the distaste of betrayal and it
keeps people clinging in the face of todays shallow connectivity in a
mainly wired world. Or is it the kind of pride that ignores
failure beacuse it would negate the real communal expereinces described above
and continues to morph upstream to keep the proverbail fire burning?
Whatever it is, it's like a virus whose wild spread growth has been
stunted for sure, but is it now dormant but still living amongst us
waiting to rear it's ugly head again like a dogmatic ebola?
It's crazy how her relatives act; what can be done????
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waysider
The following is only my opinion:
I believe a real turning point for many TWI followers was session #7 of the PFAL class.
It was in this session that Wierwille taught that Eve was deceived by Satan because she stopped to "consider" what he was saying. The essence of the lesson was that we, too, would be tricked by Satan if we ever allowed ourselves to examine was was being presented in a critical and logical manner. Instead, we were admonished to never consider conflicting viewpoints but, rather, to "STAND!" and never be swayed in our thinking.
This partly explains their stubborn insistence to always be "right".
In addition, we were encouraged to study accounts of people who had exhibited extreme dedication, such as Brother Andrew (God's Smuggler) and Cory ten Boom (The Hiding Place) and strive to achieve that sort of high level commitment.
And, of course, it was widely promoted that if one were to ever leave the "protective hedge" that the "household" provided, dire consequences were sure to follow the individual and their loved ones. Some people who were willing to take that risk with their own lives were much more reluctant to jeopardize the safety of their spouses and children.
I know it's probably still hard to understand but I hope that gives you a bit of insight.
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Ham
Welcome to the cafe friend.
I think if one can doctrinally justify wife swapping, they are rather sick to begin with..
now if they can convince otherwise God-loving people it's the thing to do.. I'd say they are more than sick, they are dangerous.
At least you partly understand some of the mentality involved here..
drawing from way doctrine, even suggesting that sin CAN make one sick.. I rebel frem it only based on the source..
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Ham
as far as "what can be done.."
I think it depends on what you want to do..
if you want to keep some lines of communication open, maybe don't argue with them.. I think it just feeds the beast.. it actually gives them the polarity that they WANT. Some people in, their self-worth depends on being different, being right, at least in their own eyes..
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Ham
another thing to consider.. practically EVERY SINGLE "leader" in that organization were trained by, with or followed the man who could "biblically" convince staff it was a godly thing to "loan" him their wives (documented in at least one instance), or enabled him..
to argue with them, is just to argue with insanity, in my opinion..
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geisha779
I don't know if it is fair to say those who adhere to TWI doctrine are only guilty of being taken advantage of. . . There is enough out here now to enlighten even the most stubborn among us, that TWI is an aberant belief system.
That sense of community and being connected seems to be a strong attraction for many, and rightly you have pinpointed how that can serve to keep one engaged.
However earnest a seeker we once were. . . . when you go from a caring unbeliever with a modicum of decency and propriety to a judgemental jerk by way of "Christian Doctrine" it might be time to rethink things.
I don't think we need to lose our humanity to continue in a community and certainly not to serve God.
The only thing I know to be done is to be an example. . . doctrinal discussions are pointless when one has an answer for everything due to some expert INdoctrination. . . . but it sure used to make me VERY uncomfortable when I saw "Carnal Christians" actually living their faith in love and service.
How they went and saw that concert and all those Christians there and walked away with that choice tidbit. . . is just telling. Keep inviting them---challenge them OUT of their comfort zone of "Community".
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WordWolf
For those of you who are unclear how basic this so-called "LAW" of believing is,
I will document it a little.
Right in pfal (and the accompanying orange book), we have this:
"Orange Book, page 44.
"What one fears will surely come to pass. It is a law. Have you ever heard about
people who set the time of their death? When somebody says 'Well, this time next
year I will not be here', if you are a betting man, bet your money, you are going to
win. If a person makes up his mind that this time next year he is going to be dead,
God would have to change the laws of the universe for the person not to be
accomodated."
In "The Bible Tells Me So" (the blue book), we have this:
"Blue Book, page 43-44.
"You may believe rightly or wrongly. Believing works both ways, and you bring to
yourself whatever you believe."
page 44.
"Fear, worry and anxiety are types of believing. If you worry, have fear and are
anxious you will receive the fruit of your negative believing which is defeat."
Page 44.
"The law of believing works equally effectively for both the sinner and the saint..."
They say that your "believing" determines the things that happen to you,
and can prevent bad things from happening to you.
Of course, nobody in twi has been able to "believe" for winning a big lottery
or anything....
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Ham
How people can just sit around though.. and debate doctrinal trivialities like there's no tomorrow.. and keep both eyes closed to or justify rampant abuse and bad behavior.. yeah, I was there once too.. I made excuses for loy's and others foul mouths every bit as efficiently as others..
It must be something in the water..
and it goes on and on.. I think you are right about the ebola or mold analogy..
the very last twi offshoot meeting I attended.. a few years ago.. the main teaching in a nutshell:
"why everybody who doesn't think like us are possessed, or at least greatly influenced by debils.."
no kidding..
I smiled, bobbed my head up and down like everybody else.. left after the meeting.. took a long hot shower, and never went back..
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bewareofthevictorwerewolf
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potato
here's something that really helped me understand why people stay in: study up on narcissistic personality disorder, particularly in domestic relationships and in the church.
the people who are most easily manipulated by narcissists are the ones they target and groom. victims aren't necessarily out looking for someone to control and abuse them, in fact when twi got their claws in me I was actively trying to recover from the way I was raised, but narcissists are ALWAYS on the lookout for people who are susceptible, which is why twi and my ex-husband swooped in and so effectively changed my life in a very short period of time from an independent thinker to someone almost completely helpless.
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