When I was in, I thought the book offered too much and too little.. I felt it was way too long.. whole paragraphs and painfully overexagerated detail which only gave what one might understand with a trivial reading of the book of Acts to begin with..
so lengthy.. it was like.. "I'll show you what kind of opinion you oughter have.."
dry rambling.. page after page, paragraph after paragraph..
I think the reason innies revere this *great* work is the same reason they think current vey productions are on the cutting edge of christian "entertainment"..
I have the silly-bus too, I just can't remember at this point if the class came first or the book. the book was one of the most excruciating things I've ever had to work through, and we were REQUIRED to work it and teach it in fellowships.
god, what awful times.
was I really dumb enough to waste that much of my life in that god-forsaken organization?
oh yeah. that was me... I wasn't dumb, I was terrorized.
Hey,Kids,Its Mr.Obvious time!!Lcm padded his material,He always took a subject and overkilled it.
Ya know?Ran it in the ground?R and E were no exception,as mentioned early here by a fellow poster,
a simple reading would have been sufficient of acts.
Acts,The word praxis,a fulcrum,(now lets reinvent the wheel,after all I lcm know everything,you know nothing)
ad nasuem...waste a whole 45 miutes of teaching,See we are experts on this subject.So simple ya gotta be stupider than stupid not to understand!No questions as you do not want to be considered stupid.
The figures of speech thing?8 great statements?Are they important?Sure but is that Where it led to?
Lcm seemed to end up at the end that it was a personal thing with Paul,Everyone had turned away,The
"ministry"was in decline,Hmm a simularity to der veg?
Right before I departed der veg,I made a comment to a fellow"believer"You cannot look at acts from this day and time,you have to look at it at the time it was written,There were no way ministry,It had not been invented yet.Wow,That person became agitated,They really got to you,He said.What?give me a break,The
way has been around only a few decades,In his view the way is was and always will be.
Frank, did he say who "they" were, or was it assumed "they" were disgruntled followers, or debils or something?
what an "educated" response.. "they really got to you.."
anyway.. isn't it interesting.. an internet search for "the rise and expansion of the christian church" yeilds little more than a few negative references to the old organization and loy boy's not even second rate work.. and a half a dozen used copies for sale, ranging mostly from $9.95 with shipping to maybe $25 which includes an "autographed" business card.. book supposedly in "pristine" condition..
good luck selling a copy for $25.00.. that's about what it originally sold for, did it not? Considering inflation and such, even that's a loss.
how low has the "work" fallen.. you'd think the whole academic world "missed it" somewhere, wouldn't you..
For the record, the class came first, back in the early '80s. The book was published in '93.
I remember enjoying the class, because the idea of seeing the power of the first century church revived in our day was exciting. Needless to say, it never happened. One of the reviews on Amazon said the following:
"The outreach of the first century may have more to do with the miraculous results, the great deliverance, and the change by way of an inner working, the great new birth, than any formula the author may have stumbled on."
I would also add that part of the reason we don't see the results they saw in the first century is that since then the church has lost sight of the true message that Jesus had commissioned them/us to preach: the Gospel of the Kingdom.
Hey, I could sell my copy?? Get money back for it??
I could do with some of that money that I invested in TWI books and materials.
If they're still selling it in the bookstore, that's another dose of Way hypocrisy.
We all know that as soon as anyone left - writer, musician, whoever - any of that person's works were immediately withdrawn because the person was obviously possessed and all their works must have been subtly influenced by DS and therefore should not be listened to or read. This even extended to requiring followers on the field, just ordinary twig members, to discard their copies of music tapes and books.
So obviously, that's what would happen to all materials authored by or involving LCM, right?
Tell you what - AoS went up well, in the woodburner...! But I still have R&E someplace.
Offers, wnyone? Who'd like to buy it from me? (Form an orderly line, please, this isn't Wal-Mart).
Rise and expansion?...Ironic isn't it?...that the okie who taught this stuff trashed all the successful programs that Vic had put together....The original pfal, the wow program and the roa...these were the guts of Vic's money making empire...and the guy he picks trashes all the successful programs!!!
I have to say...Martindale was dumber than a box of hammers. All he had to do was to keep the trains running on time...instead, he destroyed the whole thing...the only reason they exist today is because of the revenue twi makes from the investments of the money that came in during the 70's and 80's...
...I'm no expert, but I would guess that before you can "rise and expand"...you have to first be a Christian. Martindale and twi fell short of even THAT...in my opinion.
Yeah Tzaia - I made sure my swallow of beer was down before I posted. As I mentioned in another thread - Martindork was kinda of the dumb@$$ side with a propensity for TRYING to sound profound - well I suppose if nothing else it provides me a great entertainment now-a-days
From The Rise and Expansion of the Christian Church------1981
"Dear Believer:
Greetings and God bless you in the name of our living *lord and savior, Jesus Christ"
*(lower case usage is verbatim.)
"It is my priviledge to welcome you to this class on the Book of Acts, 'The Rise and Expansion of the Christian Church.' Our believing is that the truths presented within this teaching aspect of our Way Ministry will cause your believing and commitment to rise beyond your greatest goals to the end that the expansion of the ekklesia will be abundantly multiplied in your Twig and Area. And we trust you will apply what is covered in this class so God's Word can rise and expand in our day, even beyond that in the growth life of the first century believers."
Etc, Etc.---
(Emphasis added)
___________________________
Holy crud! This class is nothing but a cleverly disguised admonition to sell, sell, sell.
"We're going to cause your commitment level to rise so you will apply these lessons and expand the number of sales you close."
that a man who taught a class about, and wrote a book about,
membership in the Christian church and increasing numbers,
is a man who oversaw a religious organization during a time when
it lost over 80% of its members, reversing a steady trend of membership
increases before he was in charge?
There's no mild about it. When I got out and saw that, in the scheme of things, TWI was never more than a Rhode Island of Christian organizations from a size perspective to begin with, and that LCM had basically turned it into Flint, Michigan, that's when I realized TWI is/was a cult. VPW, scoundrel as he was, had/has a loyal following. People overlook(ed) his flaws and TWI grew in spite of what he was doing behind the scenes. It was all based on his personality. He was probably too narcissistic to choose someone to succeed him who would take the spotlight off him, so he went for a "positional" leader who simply didn't have the personality to cause anything other than his south parts to rise and expand.
Not only that, LCM being the narcissist he is, wasn't smart enough to simply emulate VPW as the chosen of VPW, he wanted to be revered for being him. The problem is that LCM came off as an arrogant butthole. VPW may have been an arrogant butthole, but he rarely came off that way.
I think that Vic's selection of Martindale was revealing in and of itself...
If Vic really believed that his ministry had substance, he would have picked Walter...but he knew it was built on his personality...so he attempted to pick someone with a firey personality...albeit, the guy was an a ** hole.
...and he also had delusions of granduer. Sign a loyalty oath?...kiss my a **.
There's no mild about it. When I got out and saw that, in the scheme of things, TWI was never more than a Rhode Island of Christian organizations from a size perspective to begin with, and that LCM had basically turned it into Flint, Michigan, that's when I realized TWI is/was a cult. VPW, scoundrel as he was, had/has a loyal following. People overlook(ed) his flaws and TWI grew in spite of what he was doing behind the scenes. It was all based on his personality. He was probably too narcissistic to choose someone to succeed him who would take the spotlight off him, so he went for a "positional" leader who simply didn't have the personality to cause anything other than his south parts to rise and expand.
Not only that, LCM being the narcissist he is, wasn't smart enough to simply emulate VPW as the chosen of VPW, he wanted to be revered for being him. The problem is that LCM came off as an arrogant butthole. VPW may have been an arrogant butthole, but he rarely came off that way.
Well I may be in the minority here but for me what attracted me to the Way wasn't Weirwille it was the way people were reading the bible and studying it. IT was the first time I ever felt like the word of God was something I could read and understand and it was exciting to actually find some where that tried to be logical about their study of the word. Okay and let me add here that I took the class in 1979 in Colorado. Also in my WOW Family we didn't just go back over teh stuff from PFAL we would share the stuff we were reading in our Bible too. OF course we were a bit of a renegade WOW family but that is neither here nor there.
I never got far enough along to argue if any point was true or false.. mostly becasue I had this flaw(Acording to one Way Corps Guy I knew) I liked to really look everything up that I heaard and try to see for myself if it was true or not. Silly me! :)
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cheranne
Never heard of that book? I worked at Borders Books for years and NEVER heard of lcm's book.
I did hear plenty about "Losing The Way" (good stuff)
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Ham
When I was in, I thought the book offered too much and too little.. I felt it was way too long.. whole paragraphs and painfully overexagerated detail which only gave what one might understand with a trivial reading of the book of Acts to begin with..
so lengthy.. it was like.. "I'll show you what kind of opinion you oughter have.."
dry rambling.. page after page, paragraph after paragraph..
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waysider
Somewhere around here I have a silly-bus of a class by that name.
To be honest, I don't even remember taking the class, much less what the content was.
Must have been pretty impressive, huh?
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Ham
I think the reason innies revere this *great* work is the same reason they think current vey productions are on the cutting edge of christian "entertainment"..
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potato
I forgot the amazon link in case anyone was interested:
http://www.amazon.com/Expansion-Christian-...7585&sr=8-1
I have the silly-bus too, I just can't remember at this point if the class came first or the book. the book was one of the most excruciating things I've ever had to work through, and we were REQUIRED to work it and teach it in fellowships.
god, what awful times.
was I really dumb enough to waste that much of my life in that god-forsaken organization?
oh yeah. that was me... I wasn't dumb, I was terrorized.
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frank123lol
Hey,Kids,Its Mr.Obvious time!!Lcm padded his material,He always took a subject and overkilled it.
Ya know?Ran it in the ground?R and E were no exception,as mentioned early here by a fellow poster,
a simple reading would have been sufficient of acts.
Acts,The word praxis,a fulcrum,(now lets reinvent the wheel,after all I lcm know everything,you know nothing)
ad nasuem...waste a whole 45 miutes of teaching,See we are experts on this subject.So simple ya gotta be stupider than stupid not to understand!No questions as you do not want to be considered stupid.
The figures of speech thing?8 great statements?Are they important?Sure but is that Where it led to?
Lcm seemed to end up at the end that it was a personal thing with Paul,Everyone had turned away,The
"ministry"was in decline,Hmm a simularity to der veg?
way has been around only a few decades,In his view the way is was and always will be.
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Ham
Frank, did he say who "they" were, or was it assumed "they" were disgruntled followers, or debils or something?
what an "educated" response.. "they really got to you.."
anyway.. isn't it interesting.. an internet search for "the rise and expansion of the christian church" yeilds little more than a few negative references to the old organization and loy boy's not even second rate work.. and a half a dozen used copies for sale, ranging mostly from $9.95 with shipping to maybe $25 which includes an "autographed" business card.. book supposedly in "pristine" condition..
good luck selling a copy for $25.00.. that's about what it originally sold for, did it not? Considering inflation and such, even that's a loss.
how low has the "work" fallen.. you'd think the whole academic world "missed it" somewhere, wouldn't you..
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Mark Clarke
For the record, the class came first, back in the early '80s. The book was published in '93.
I remember enjoying the class, because the idea of seeing the power of the first century church revived in our day was exciting. Needless to say, it never happened. One of the reviews on Amazon said the following:
I would also add that part of the reason we don't see the results they saw in the first century is that since then the church has lost sight of the true message that Jesus had commissioned them/us to preach: the Gospel of the Kingdom.
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Twinky
Hey, I could sell my copy?? Get money back for it??
I could do with some of that money that I invested in TWI books and materials.
If they're still selling it in the bookstore, that's another dose of Way hypocrisy.
We all know that as soon as anyone left - writer, musician, whoever - any of that person's works were immediately withdrawn because the person was obviously possessed and all their works must have been subtly influenced by DS and therefore should not be listened to or read. This even extended to requiring followers on the field, just ordinary twig members, to discard their copies of music tapes and books.
So obviously, that's what would happen to all materials authored by or involving LCM, right?
Tell you what - AoS went up well, in the woodburner...! But I still have R&E someplace.
Offers, wnyone? Who'd like to buy it from me? (Form an orderly line, please, this isn't Wal-Mart).
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potato
they're going for less than $5 on amazon, which is about what they're worth.
no wait, I think someone would have to pay me $5 to take a copy, but at least I could use it to start fires in my firepit.
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frank123lol
Mr.Ham,I left the way in early 2000 for awhile,In about Augest,I started talking to the "believers" I made
no secret I had been on the internet.What was the straw that broke the camels back,was not greaspot it was
I was actively seeking to buy a house.Also the fact I refused to go door to door anymore,called old wineskins,that really honked their horn.
my finances came into question,as I had gasp 2 car loans.One car I still have after almost 9 years!
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GrouchoMarxJr
Rise and expansion?...Ironic isn't it?...that the okie who taught this stuff trashed all the successful programs that Vic had put together....The original pfal, the wow program and the roa...these were the guts of Vic's money making empire...and the guy he picks trashes all the successful programs!!!
I have to say...Martindale was dumber than a box of hammers. All he had to do was to keep the trains running on time...instead, he destroyed the whole thing...the only reason they exist today is because of the revenue twi makes from the investments of the money that came in during the 70's and 80's...
...I'm no expert, but I would guess that before you can "rise and expand"...you have to first be a Christian. Martindale and twi fell short of even THAT...in my opinion.
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RumRunner
Dude that is because Martindale thought "rise and expansion" was a motorcoach activity not a church growth activity
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Tzaia
Good thing I had swallowed that Diet Coke.
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RumRunner
Yeah Tzaia - I made sure my swallow of beer was down before I posted. As I mentioned in another thread - Martindork was kinda of the dumb@$$ side with a propensity for TRYING to sound profound - well I suppose if nothing else it provides me a great entertainment now-a-days
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waysider
From The Rise and Expansion of the Christian Church------1981
"Dear Believer:
Greetings and God bless you in the name of our living *lord and savior, Jesus Christ"
*(lower case usage is verbatim.)
"It is my priviledge to welcome you to this class on the Book of Acts, 'The Rise and Expansion of the Christian Church.' Our believing is that the truths presented within this teaching aspect of our Way Ministry will cause your believing and commitment to rise beyond your greatest goals to the end that the expansion of the ekklesia will be abundantly multiplied in your Twig and Area. And we trust you will apply what is covered in this class so God's Word can rise and expand in our day, even beyond that in the growth life of the first century believers."
Etc, Etc.---
(Emphasis added)
___________________________
Holy crud! This class is nothing but a cleverly disguised admonition to sell, sell, sell.
"We're going to cause your commitment level to rise so you will apply these lessons and expand the number of sales you close."
Jeepers!
I'm kinda glad I slept through it. ;)
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RumRunner
Laughing here - I'm kinda glad I left before I ever heard of it
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WordWolf
Doesn't it strike anyone as mildly ironic
that a man who taught a class about, and wrote a book about,
membership in the Christian church and increasing numbers,
is a man who oversaw a religious organization during a time when
it lost over 80% of its members, reversing a steady trend of membership
increases before he was in charge?
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Tzaia
There's no mild about it. When I got out and saw that, in the scheme of things, TWI was never more than a Rhode Island of Christian organizations from a size perspective to begin with, and that LCM had basically turned it into Flint, Michigan, that's when I realized TWI is/was a cult. VPW, scoundrel as he was, had/has a loyal following. People overlook(ed) his flaws and TWI grew in spite of what he was doing behind the scenes. It was all based on his personality. He was probably too narcissistic to choose someone to succeed him who would take the spotlight off him, so he went for a "positional" leader who simply didn't have the personality to cause anything other than his south parts to rise and expand.
Not only that, LCM being the narcissist he is, wasn't smart enough to simply emulate VPW as the chosen of VPW, he wanted to be revered for being him. The problem is that LCM came off as an arrogant butthole. VPW may have been an arrogant butthole, but he rarely came off that way.
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Mark Clarke
That's because LCM was no better at acting than he was at dancing.
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skyrider
Maybe, vpw learned the value of subtle arrogance..........AFTER being kicked out of that Van Wert denomination back in the 50s?
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Tzaia
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think that Vic's selection of Martindale was revealing in and of itself...
If Vic really believed that his ministry had substance, he would have picked Walter...but he knew it was built on his personality...so he attempted to pick someone with a firey personality...albeit, the guy was an a ** hole.
...and he also had delusions of granduer. Sign a loyalty oath?...kiss my a **.
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leafytwiglet
Well I may be in the minority here but for me what attracted me to the Way wasn't Weirwille it was the way people were reading the bible and studying it. IT was the first time I ever felt like the word of God was something I could read and understand and it was exciting to actually find some where that tried to be logical about their study of the word. Okay and let me add here that I took the class in 1979 in Colorado. Also in my WOW Family we didn't just go back over teh stuff from PFAL we would share the stuff we were reading in our Bible too. OF course we were a bit of a renegade WOW family but that is neither here nor there.
I never got far enough along to argue if any point was true or false.. mostly becasue I had this flaw(Acording to one Way Corps Guy I knew) I liked to really look everything up that I heaard and try to see for myself if it was true or not. Silly me! :)
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