Converting the cash to a money order seemed to make sense.
What DIDN'T make sense was having to use personal funds to pay for the cost of the money order and postage.
Most of us hardly had enough money to buy lunch.
We were expressly forbidden to use any of the ABS for such things.
After all, look what happened to Ananais and Saphira!!
Wouldn't want to end up dead like them, now would we?
Really? are we lamenting over the price of a stamp in the 70's what was it six or eight cents? :blink:
-----------plus the cost of the money order, at a time when the average pay was something like $1.50/hour.
But the actual amount is irrelevant.
The money collected was supposed to be used to do God's work.
Why is it that this part of the process didn't fit that definition?
My memory is that I had more than one corp and WoW person writing me asking for nothing more than stamps, paper, envelopes, and pens. When you don't have much of anything, then stamps are very costly.
Stamps went from 6 cents to 15 cents during the 70s. If ABS had to be sent in every week using a money order that cost around 50 cents and stamps that cost around 10 cents each, that would be over $31 a year - or 7 hours of wages at minimum wage, or a week's worth of groceries, or 3 weeks of gas money - at least for me and my family during that time. That is not an insignificant to a person who is struggling to put food on the table, a roof over his/her head, and trying to get to work every day.
If it was sent in once a month, then it would have been less costly - only $7 per year.
You are grossly mistaken.
It was made very clear that we were in no way, shape or form to use ABS or money from "love offerings" for postage, money orders, class expenses or anything else at the local level.
That was the official Way International policy as stated by limb leadership on numerous occasions as the question was raised at statewide branch/twig area leader meetings.
The point here is not the cost of a stamp, etc.
The point is that the money traveled down a path of no return.
Like a roach motel for personal funds.
The money goes in but it never comes back out.
Makes no difference whatsoever if we are talking about a nickel or a thousand dollars.
I view it as one last shakedown of "believers".. for a stinking envelope, and a friggin twenty-nine cent stamp.. after giving one's shirt, they nickeled and dimed us, to DEATH..
oh, they did send out the anniversary envelopes for one to contribute over and above for ministry "holidays".. send money in one of them? You would DEFINITELY be noticed if the customary amount didn't go in the horn that week.
But no stamp on it or prepayed.
They(twi)played off we were honest,If they asked we would tell.
Now it would be F@$k them!! I t aint nor ever was gods money.
No wonder,if even in the stretch of the imagination the "law of believing'
never worked for fo the majority of us.
A stamp or a money order subtracted from their precious abs would not have mattered.
They(twi) truly has a wicked dollar.
You need to read what's written on the page. I wasn't referring to my situation specifically. I was referring to the cost of food, gas, and wages in general, and how the cost of weekly mailing ABS could affect the average person working for minimum wage.
You were saying it was no big deal and I was quantifying the accumulated costs. If you want to spend money on coffee and you figured out a way to keep the costs down that worked with HQ, more power to you. Other's didn't feel they had choices.
I don't believe in the tithe now and I didn't then, either. I believe charity begins at home, particularly when I saw OPM being squandered on Harley tours.
YOU are the one who has redirected this conversation to focus on something other than the the subject at hand.
You should really be ashamed of yourself for criticizing those of us who believed that what we were doing was the proper course of action, taunting us for doing the "right thing" as we knew it. Are you somehow proud that you violated an official (yes, I said official) policy while the vast majority of others complied? By Way standards (whatever that's worth) what you did was tantamount to lying to God. Have you so soon forgotten the lesson of Ananais and Saphira from PLAF? I suppose, at this point, you should be hoping the conclusion reached in that lesson was inaccurate.
We were NEVER told it was OK to use ABS for such expenses. The only explanation I can fathom that would explain your lacking knowledge of this policy, which was verbally conveyed, is that you were never present in any of the countless leadership meetings where this very question was addressed ad infinitum even as early as the early 1970's. And that's fine. I don't care. But don't tell people what they heard or didn't hear if you, yourself, weren't there to hear it.
AAAAH if it was not about the stamp then why bring it up? Apperantly it had some purpose. And then proceeding to justify it with some cost of living analysis. only after that failed then it became not about the stamp.
By the way ....You need to read what is written what I said was
Actually I'm not sure at one time that we were not told it was ok to take the cost out of the ABS
I never said that what you or anyone else heard was wrong, nor that what I did was either, what I said was I'm not sure that at one time that we were not told it was ok to take the cost out of the ABS. I think I was, but since I was not sure ,I stated it as not sure which is correct.
But don't tell people what they heard or didn't hear if you, yourself, weren't there to hear it.
Good advise perhaps you will follow it ,don't tell me what I heard or didn't either.
Each Twig is self-supporting, self-propagating and self-governing in cooperation with its respective Branch as each Branch is to its respective Limb, as each Limb is to its respective Trunk, as each Trunk is to the Root of the Way.
The Way Tree-------1974
(Bold highlight added for emphasis.)
"In context", it means exactly the opposite of what it means when it is stated "out of context".
Even in a botanical sense, the statement falls flat. A twig on a real tree can't support itself, propagate itself or govern itself. It was all an illusion. Smoke and mirrors, my friends. We never REALLY had any say in where the train was headed. We were just along for the ride.
Since your looking at the context lets look at the word you highlighted ..... Cooperation 
–noun 1. an act or instance of working or acting together for a common purpose or benefit; joint action.
Working in a common goal for instance ,the speaking of the scriptures ,or the common goal of The Way, WOW does not mean that every detail of that goal will be performed the same by each person. there is lots of room for diversity. I bet Paul self governed differently than James, or John yet they had the same goal at times.
Speaking of "official policy" Here is a Quote......
What we are endeavoring to do is simply the principle that is laid out in the Way Tree syllabus Each unit is composed of a ruling Elder, a Secretary, Treasurer and Deacons as the need arises. Many Twigs have these "Titles" with mundane assignments, but there aren't many Twigs that are really operating the principle to the extent that they could or should be operating it. This segment of leadership in the Twig should be to the Twig what the Board of Trustees is to the Root. It should be the real nucleus of decision making leadership for that Twig. (*Twig Leadership Training)
Sounds like self governing to me....... Sounds like making decisions to me ,like say for instance buying stamps I bet the board of trustees made the decision that stamps were business expenses. Actually now that I think about it I may have understated it, not only is it clear we have been given the authority to make those decisions, but it was a gentle reproof that we had "mundane assignments" and were not utilizing that authority that we had been given.
There was much funk, bunk and junk going on in twi and some major issues with leadership trying to boss us around. The few twigs I was in was a haven. We were a close family. That part of the twi.....I loved the ride. Have never found fellowship like that since.
...... Sounds like making decisions to me ,like say for instance buying stamps I bet the board of trustees made the decision that stamps were business expenses. Actually now that I think about it I may have understated it, not only is it clear we have been given the authority to make those decisions, but it was a gentle reproof that we had "mundane assignments" and were not utilizing that authority that we had been given.
Your assumption is 100% incorrect and clearly demonstrates an act of defiance to God by virtue of disobedience to leadership. But don't take it personally. All have sinned and fallen short.
AAAAH if it was not about the stamp then why bring it up? Apperantly it had some purpose. And then proceeding to justify it with some cost of living analysis. only after that failed then it became not about the stamp.
Actually, it is you who have made the stamp an issue in an effort to redirect attention away from what the stamp itself symbolizes. I'm not surprised, though. It seems to be your mission in life to direct attention away from anything that might tarnish the reputation of The Way.
WD, it's the principle behind the stamp thing. Even when I was a good little gung-ho Twig leader I found it annoying that I was sending in 100s of dollars to HQ, yet we were told (very clearly, I might add) that God forbid we should take a quarter for a money order and whatever a stamp cost back then out of the ABS. It didn't break me. I didn't go without food over it. It just irked me. Just like saying ABS couldn't be used for ANYTHING except putting in an envelope with that damned blue form (oh, how I hated filling that out every week) and sending it off to Box 328.
One of the greatest things about leaving twi was the freedom to give where and when and to whom I wanted. Toward the end of my twi time, until I walked away altogether, I stopped sending my Twig's money to HQ and encouraged people to give where they wanted. I told them if they wanted to keep supporting what was going on at twi they could send their money there themselves.
After that, giving became fun, not a religious ritual that would keep God spitting on me...so to speak.
Back in "the day" perhaps we shoulda made the stamp the issue..it was only one small compromise after another.
I can already hear the "shoulda could woulda" reply.. but I don't think it fits.. because they won't even get another twenty nine cents out of me, ever again.. or another organization like them.
we ate hot dogs and tripe.. and they shook us down for another 29 cents, and a three cent envelope..
and that's just the tip of the iceberg.. the whole organization reeked of cheapness..
I remember an incident.. a WORK CREW.. the guy running it.. he bought them lunch.. about a dozen fifty nine cent burgers from mcdonalds.. and a few fries.. they raked him over the coals.. how DARE he WASTE "god's" money on a ten dollar lunch for a crew of VOLUNTEERS when they could have made twenty-nine cent peanut butter sandwiches..
and they made it sound convincing.. how it's a CRIME to "waste" "god's" money on something so FRIVOLOUS..
the "cheapness" goes on and on..
I remember assignments to go work over local funeral homes for leftover flowers, for meetings..
at the same time, unbknownst to me, those in charge were rolling in bags of cash, living lives of luxury and every whim fulfilled.. it's the same attitude that I see in the big three CEO's.. cut, slash costs, everywhere but "home"..
One of the last corps here I knew.. they were FUMING.. absolutey ENRAGED about some kind of new local ordinance.. that would prohibit large meetings in non-commercially zoned neighborhoods.. they had already run numerous meetings.. the house was on a corner.. and the only parking was in a CHUCH about a block and a half away.. yes, they got complaints. Something about way bumper stickers on loads of cars.. honestly, I view the complaints as legitimate. You wouldn't open a shop next door, and expect your neighbor to pay for the water, electricity, gas?
What ENRAGED them? Ah.. now we might have to SPEND a little MONEY, to do it "right".. rent a room at holiday inn maybe..
The cheapness in the nineties. and early 2000's.. extended to staffers having to pull their kids from karate, dumping pets God only knows where, no cable tv..
then the no debt issue.. they "encouraged" people to sell their life's dream, of course *we* don't have to say you owe at least ten percent of the proceeds of the sale to da dumb *ministry*, and go rent, and live in cheapness somewhere..
I think it's a ministry of cheapness.. "cheap" classes, "cheap" meetings..
Your assumption is 100% incorrect and clearly demonstrates an act of defiance to God by virtue of disobedience to leadership. But don't take it personally. All have sinned and fallen short.
Really.... what part of but there aren't many Twigs that are really operating the principle to the extent that they could or should be operating it. This segment of leadership in the Twig should be to the Twig what the Board of Trustees is to the Root. It should be the real nucleus of decision making leadership for that Twig. don't you understand?
....should be to the Twig what the Board of Trustees is to the root. that means it functions in like manner trustees make decisions on financial matters , Twigs make decisions on financial matters. The same....
By the way got anything besides you memory to document your case? I thought so.....
the songbooks. Anybody else seemed to have the resources to actually produce a real book..
da way? Noooo. Cut and slash costs.. publish a little stapled, not bound "handout" that they actually CHARGED for..
don't pay anything for publications rights..
I don't think "fair use" exactly applies to wholesale copying, with small changes.. but that didn't stop them from trying.
Then having a training program so CHEAP.. that one was indentured to WORK. Yeah.. the "work program"..
how many actually got PAID for mucking the pond.. manning the switchboard.. making bless patrol rounds..
so cheap they wouldn't charter a stinking BUS to take participants to lead, etc..
it wasn't about "character building".. I hitchhiked in the early seventies, and I was STILL a doper..
and if you could not survive in the environment of cheapness, and come back in one piece, and ON TIME.. and with the sole twenty bucks you were graciously "blessed" with, for emergencies, you were "screwed"..
the only reason one had the cash? There are areas of the country that if one cannot produce evidence of having SOME money.. they will prosecute one for vagrancy. Probably happened once.. and they found it CHEAPER to simply send people with a twenty dollar bill..
Even the original *historical* BRC was CHEAP.. the lowest price of construction.. required the absolute LEAST amount of "labor" though it was DONATED.. probably the most expensive part of it was pouring the foundation..
un-friggin-believable..
It was a stinking NATIONAL HOME. Prefabricated.. shipped in larger sections.. CHEAP. BARELY a step up from trailer accommodations..
a NATIONAL HOME..
good frigging grief..
came as a KIT.. no intellect required. No measuring.. no cutting..one didn't need even common sense..
simple enough to build, that the likes of uncle howey could do it..
National homes were popular because of the returning soldiers from WWII.. they were SUPPOSED to be a CHEAP, QUICK solution to the housing shortage.. and they weren't intended to last over twenty years..
so.. the most "holy" place on the whole stinking property.. is a NATIONAL HOME..
Have you even noticed that my "memory" has been echoed by other posters who experienced the same thing-------several states away?
And that the directives came from limb leadership?
How do you explain that?
Seems to me you are suggesting we are fabricating this issue.
(Polite way of calling us liars)
Is that what you are suggesting?
Have you ever noticed that I document my memory with Official policy something that you seem fond of invoking but never providing. What you have before you was documented facts they are pretty self explanitory I'd say.
Again policy says and I quote" but there aren't many Twigs that are really operating the principle to the extent that they could or should be operating it. This segment of leadership in the Twig should be to the Twig what the Board of Trustees is to the Root. It should be the real nucleus of decision making leadership for that Twig."
Seems to me you are suggesting we are fabricating this issue.
(Polite way of calling us liars)
Is that what you are suggesting?
What I suggested was that clearly authority was given, in (official policy even[) not from memory, and for whatever reason you decided, you simply decided not to exercise it. You've been given it, but you failed to use it. Only you can explain why you chose to do that and why a ten cent stamp caused you such missery
I remember the boasting in some kind of historical handout.. how that right after they constructed the mighty "research center" they ran out of room.. not enough room for the thronging masses..
How many thronging masses can you fit in a stinking little NATIONAL HOME?
I grew up in one. We had a party with about seventeen or so in it once..
What I suggested was that clearly authority was given, in (official policy even[) not from memory, and for whatever reason you decided, you simply decided not to exercise it. You've been given it, but you failed to use it. Only you can explain why you chose to do that and why a ten cent stamp caused you such missery [/color]
Once again, you have misrepresented the essence of my statements.
Please stop doing that.
I never said that a ten cent stamp caused me misery.
Please take note that not all twig leaders, who were subject to this policy, were graduates of the Twig Leadership Training class.
I, myself, was a twig leader long before this class even existed.
Furthermore, your insistence that only Way policies which were written are valid is ludicrous and misguided.
You have heard many people offer their substantiation of this policy and practice and yet you choose to ignore the obvious.
Stating that you flagrantly thumbed your nose at this policy and practice, in fact, demonstrates you knew of its existence.
. But there is a big difference between irked and it made me miss food on my table. . . . . Lots of things irked me ,few if any made me miss lunch. Had it been stated as an irking thing, different story, the attempt to portray it as the cause for starvation while at the same time, giving hundreds of dollars to that same organization.... is at best laughable. It makes no sense unless of course one is looking at the bottom of the barrel for something to rant about. I seriously doubt a stamp caused such damage as is portrayed here, but what's new over exaggeration runs rampant.
It is the idea that we had out of pocket expenses for such things. Most organizations pay for the cost of postage when you are DONATING to them! It is the arrogance. The GREED!! The money grubbing--mammon loving --hypocrisy!!
White Dove were you ever a WOW? I mentioned missing meals and we did miss some--I DID lose weight as a WOW--I was reed thin at the ROA--We sent in our ABS to HQ instead of buying good healthy food. I am actually a bit jealous of Ham's tripe! We ate Mac and Cheese and lettuce with vinegar as a salad. It was pathetic! We had no money after we gave of our abundance!
They took advantage of kids committed to serving God and willing to sacrifice to do it. The stamp? It is a form of usery at the lowest most vile level.
Why didn't I do otherwise or leave? I thought I was serving God--and I was at the limb where the Limb Leader was breathing down my neck. . .
Do you think any of those SOB's at HQ sacrificed? I flew on Ambassador One with HA once. He sat in the back of the plane--in a convienent cozy little compartment --swilling booze and being waited on!! Those guys lived well ABOVE the poverty level -- in SIN-- on the money WE sent in!
Private jets--a fleet of cars--motorcycles--A BEAUTIFUL Chalet. . . buildings--grounds-- expensive suits. . .All paid for with OUR money(We paid to send in) and cheap or SLAVE labor.
Irked doesn't cover it. But, I am glad you are smarter than the rest of us peons who still have a bad feeling about what happened. But, then again--IMHO such behavoir deserves a bit of anger.
Would it make you happy to hear we are all stupid for doing it--and we all admire your sound judgment and reason? Is that the point of all this deflection from the real issue?
Well, I will give you this much. . . .I was a very naive silly kid--I really thought I was doing right. . . that should clue you in to how CLUELESS I really was.
The stamp, and the small cost of it was not the real issue. Many posters have said so, and explained their reasoning. One poster has ignored these explanations and chooses to cling to a misunderstanding, or perhaps a deliberate mischaracterization.
No one has said that they were in misery due to having to pay for postage.
No one said that they missed any meals due to paying for postage.
These statements are either dramatic exagerrations or strawman arguments.
So, there's documentation to supposedly substantiate that twigs were truly self-supporting. This in no way indicates that they actually were.
I believe that twi not only abused people and took advantage of them, but they bred this notion into the heads of their "leadership"
2 quick examples...
A girl who had just started attending my twig was asked by the ordained clergy guy branch leader if she would like to work for him for a day in his window cleaning business...she was badly in need of money and agreed...at the end of the day he refused to pay her telling her that she would be "blessed" for helping him for free...she never came to another twig.
This same "leader" asked a guy in my twig to drive him around town so that he could conduct his business (having a driver made him feel important)...at the end of the day, he refused to give the guy any gas money and made him pay for his own lunch...AND chewed him out because his tires were a little bald and he was endangering the life of God's leader!!!
Wierwille's great con had a trickledown effect and instilled arrogance in many people...When it came to finances, work, or anything else that required effort, twi's policy was to take...not give.
I never had a leader expect me to work in his "secular" business, but I spent plenty of time cleaning leader's homes and mowing their lawns as if it was their due.
Whether we fell for it or not, there was an expectation that we should be "blessed" to do work for our leaders that they should have been doing themselves.
TRhis became even more ludicrous when they were working full time for TWI and had no 40 hour gig to go to.
Wow Groucho, that branch leader sounds just like someone I remember from twi, were his initials GH? Â
How horrible these abusive people were our "spiritual leaders"!
No...his initials weren't GH...which only illustrates my point...this was quite widespread. Twi leaders became kings in their own little kingdoms...they felt that their "status" or "title" was a license to use people.
...and anyone who complained was "spiritually immature" and a trouble maker. I was in the corps and I know that what I am saying is true.
I do not recall ever attending any twi meeting (with corps leadership), where giving something to a believer in need was ever discussed...it was ALWAYS...how can we get people to give and do more.
I do not recall ever attending any twi meeting (with corps leadership), where giving something to a believer in need was ever discussed...it was ALWAYS...how can we get people to give and do more.
I'll need to see the transcripts from those meetings.
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waysider
-----------plus the cost of the money order, at a time when the average pay was something like $1.50/hour. But the actual amount is irrelevant. The money collected was supposed to be used to do God'
frank123lol
They(twi) did not CARE how you got the money to them,as long as they got their money,Oh and it better not be late,or you are slothful.You will be reproved,humiliated,marked out.Ok we reproved you,Wher
Tzaia
My memory is that I had more than one corp and WoW person writing me asking for nothing more than stamps, paper, envelopes, and pens. When you don't have much of anything, then stamps are very costly.
coolchef
i never "freely"recieved a damn thing from that god forsaken cornfield.!
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Oakspear
Hmmm...no whining!
Just more subject changing and distractions! <_<
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WhiteDove
AAAAH if it was not about the stamp then why bring it up? Apperantly it had some purpose. And then proceeding to justify it with some cost of living analysis. only after that failed then it became not about the stamp.
By the way ....You need to read what is written what I said was
I never said that what you or anyone else heard was wrong, nor that what I did was either, what I said was I'm not sure that at one time that we were not told it was ok to take the cost out of the ABS. I think I was, but since I was not sure ,I stated it as not sure which is correct.
Good advise perhaps you will follow it ,don't tell me what I heard or didn't either.
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WhiteDove
Since your looking at the context lets look at the word you highlighted ..... Cooperation 
–noun 1. an act or instance of working or acting together for a common purpose or benefit; joint action.
Working in a common goal for instance ,the speaking of the scriptures ,or the common goal of The Way, WOW does not mean that every detail of that goal will be performed the same by each person. there is lots of room for diversity. I bet Paul self governed differently than James, or John yet they had the same goal at times.
Speaking of "official policy" Here is a Quote......
What we are endeavoring to do is simply the principle that is laid out in the Way Tree syllabus Each unit is composed of a ruling Elder, a Secretary, Treasurer and Deacons as the need arises. Many Twigs have these "Titles" with mundane assignments, but there aren't many Twigs that are really operating the principle to the extent that they could or should be operating it. This segment of leadership in the Twig should be to the Twig what the Board of Trustees is to the Root. It should be the real nucleus of decision making leadership for that Twig. (*Twig Leadership Training)
Sounds like self governing to me....... Sounds like making decisions to me ,like say for instance buying stamps I bet the board of trustees made the decision that stamps were business expenses. Actually now that I think about it I may have understated it, not only is it clear we have been given the authority to make those decisions, but it was a gentle reproof that we had "mundane assignments" and were not utilizing that authority that we had been given.
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kimberly
There was much funk, bunk and junk going on in twi and some major issues with leadership trying to boss us around. The few twigs I was in was a haven. We were a close family. That part of the twi.....I loved the ride. Have never found fellowship like that since.
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waysider
Your assumption is 100% incorrect and clearly demonstrates an act of defiance to God by virtue of disobedience to leadership. But don't take it personally. All have sinned and fallen short.
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waysider
Actually, it is you who have made the stamp an issue in an effort to redirect attention away from what the stamp itself symbolizes. I'm not surprised, though. It seems to be your mission in life to direct attention away from anything that might tarnish the reputation of The Way.
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Linda Z
WD, it's the principle behind the stamp thing. Even when I was a good little gung-ho Twig leader I found it annoying that I was sending in 100s of dollars to HQ, yet we were told (very clearly, I might add) that God forbid we should take a quarter for a money order and whatever a stamp cost back then out of the ABS. It didn't break me. I didn't go without food over it. It just irked me. Just like saying ABS couldn't be used for ANYTHING except putting in an envelope with that damned blue form (oh, how I hated filling that out every week) and sending it off to Box 328.
One of the greatest things about leaving twi was the freedom to give where and when and to whom I wanted. Toward the end of my twi time, until I walked away altogether, I stopped sending my Twig's money to HQ and encouraged people to give where they wanted. I told them if they wanted to keep supporting what was going on at twi they could send their money there themselves.
After that, giving became fun, not a religious ritual that would keep God spitting on me...so to speak.
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Ham
Back in "the day" perhaps we shoulda made the stamp the issue..it was only one small compromise after another.
I can already hear the "shoulda could woulda" reply.. but I don't think it fits.. because they won't even get another twenty nine cents out of me, ever again.. or another organization like them.
we ate hot dogs and tripe.. and they shook us down for another 29 cents, and a three cent envelope..
and that's just the tip of the iceberg.. the whole organization reeked of cheapness..
I remember an incident.. a WORK CREW.. the guy running it.. he bought them lunch.. about a dozen fifty nine cent burgers from mcdonalds.. and a few fries.. they raked him over the coals.. how DARE he WASTE "god's" money on a ten dollar lunch for a crew of VOLUNTEERS when they could have made twenty-nine cent peanut butter sandwiches..
and they made it sound convincing.. how it's a CRIME to "waste" "god's" money on something so FRIVOLOUS..
the "cheapness" goes on and on..
I remember assignments to go work over local funeral homes for leftover flowers, for meetings..
at the same time, unbknownst to me, those in charge were rolling in bags of cash, living lives of luxury and every whim fulfilled.. it's the same attitude that I see in the big three CEO's.. cut, slash costs, everywhere but "home"..
One of the last corps here I knew.. they were FUMING.. absolutey ENRAGED about some kind of new local ordinance.. that would prohibit large meetings in non-commercially zoned neighborhoods.. they had already run numerous meetings.. the house was on a corner.. and the only parking was in a CHUCH about a block and a half away.. yes, they got complaints. Something about way bumper stickers on loads of cars.. honestly, I view the complaints as legitimate. You wouldn't open a shop next door, and expect your neighbor to pay for the water, electricity, gas?
What ENRAGED them? Ah.. now we might have to SPEND a little MONEY, to do it "right".. rent a room at holiday inn maybe..
The cheapness in the nineties. and early 2000's.. extended to staffers having to pull their kids from karate, dumping pets God only knows where, no cable tv..
then the no debt issue.. they "encouraged" people to sell their life's dream, of course *we* don't have to say you owe at least ten percent of the proceeds of the sale to da dumb *ministry*, and go rent, and live in cheapness somewhere..
I think it's a ministry of cheapness.. "cheap" classes, "cheap" meetings..
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WhiteDove
Really.... what part of but there aren't many Twigs that are really operating the principle to the extent that they could or should be operating it. This segment of leadership in the Twig should be to the Twig what the Board of Trustees is to the Root. It should be the real nucleus of decision making leadership for that Twig. don't you understand?
....should be to the Twig what the Board of Trustees is to the root. that means it functions in like manner trustees make decisions on financial matters , Twigs make decisions on financial matters. The same....
By the way got anything besides you memory to document your case? I thought so.....
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waysider
Have you even noticed that my "memory" has been echoed by other posters who experienced the same thing-------several states away?
And that the directives came from limb leadership?
How do you explain that?
Seems to me you are suggesting we are fabricating this issue.
(Polite way of calling us liars)
Is that what you are suggesting?
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Ham
almost EVERYTHING was "cheap"..
the songbooks. Anybody else seemed to have the resources to actually produce a real book..
da way? Noooo. Cut and slash costs.. publish a little stapled, not bound "handout" that they actually CHARGED for..
don't pay anything for publications rights..
I don't think "fair use" exactly applies to wholesale copying, with small changes.. but that didn't stop them from trying.
Then having a training program so CHEAP.. that one was indentured to WORK. Yeah.. the "work program"..
how many actually got PAID for mucking the pond.. manning the switchboard.. making bless patrol rounds..
so cheap they wouldn't charter a stinking BUS to take participants to lead, etc..
it wasn't about "character building".. I hitchhiked in the early seventies, and I was STILL a doper..
and if you could not survive in the environment of cheapness, and come back in one piece, and ON TIME.. and with the sole twenty bucks you were graciously "blessed" with, for emergencies, you were "screwed"..
the only reason one had the cash? There are areas of the country that if one cannot produce evidence of having SOME money.. they will prosecute one for vagrancy. Probably happened once.. and they found it CHEAPER to simply send people with a twenty dollar bill..
I REALLY think it was a ministry of "cheapness"..
"what did da word cost YOU?"
"not a whole heck of a lot.."
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Ham
Even the original *historical* BRC was CHEAP.. the lowest price of construction.. required the absolute LEAST amount of "labor" though it was DONATED.. probably the most expensive part of it was pouring the foundation..
un-friggin-believable..
It was a stinking NATIONAL HOME. Prefabricated.. shipped in larger sections.. CHEAP. BARELY a step up from trailer accommodations..
a NATIONAL HOME..
good frigging grief..
came as a KIT.. no intellect required. No measuring.. no cutting..one didn't need even common sense..
simple enough to build, that the likes of uncle howey could do it..
National homes were popular because of the returning soldiers from WWII.. they were SUPPOSED to be a CHEAP, QUICK solution to the housing shortage.. and they weren't intended to last over twenty years..
so.. the most "holy" place on the whole stinking property.. is a NATIONAL HOME..
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WhiteDove
Have you ever noticed that I document my memory with Official policy something that you seem fond of invoking but never providing. What you have before you was documented facts they are pretty self explanitory I'd say.
Again policy says and I quote" but there aren't many Twigs that are really operating the principle to the extent that they could or should be operating it. This segment of leadership in the Twig should be to the Twig what the Board of Trustees is to the Root. It should be the real nucleus of decision making leadership for that Twig."
What I suggested was that clearly authority was given, in (official policy even[) not from memory, and for whatever reason you decided, you simply decided not to exercise it. You've been given it, but you failed to use it. Only you can explain why you chose to do that and why a ten cent stamp caused you such missery
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Ham
Nothing but the "best" for "gawd's people"..
I remember the boasting in some kind of historical handout.. how that right after they constructed the mighty "research center" they ran out of room.. not enough room for the thronging masses..
How many thronging masses can you fit in a stinking little NATIONAL HOME?
I grew up in one. We had a party with about seventeen or so in it once..
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waysider
Once again, you have misrepresented the essence of my statements.
Please stop doing that.
I never said that a ten cent stamp caused me misery.
Please take note that not all twig leaders, who were subject to this policy, were graduates of the Twig Leadership Training class.
I, myself, was a twig leader long before this class even existed.
Furthermore, your insistence that only Way policies which were written are valid is ludicrous and misguided.
You have heard many people offer their substantiation of this policy and practice and yet you choose to ignore the obvious.
Stating that you flagrantly thumbed your nose at this policy and practice, in fact, demonstrates you knew of its existence.
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geisha779
It is the idea that we had out of pocket expenses for such things. Most organizations pay for the cost of postage when you are DONATING to them! It is the arrogance. The GREED!! The money grubbing--mammon loving --hypocrisy!!
White Dove were you ever a WOW? I mentioned missing meals and we did miss some--I DID lose weight as a WOW--I was reed thin at the ROA--We sent in our ABS to HQ instead of buying good healthy food. I am actually a bit jealous of Ham's tripe! We ate Mac and Cheese and lettuce with vinegar as a salad. It was pathetic! We had no money after we gave of our abundance!
They took advantage of kids committed to serving God and willing to sacrifice to do it. The stamp? It is a form of usery at the lowest most vile level.
Why didn't I do otherwise or leave? I thought I was serving God--and I was at the limb where the Limb Leader was breathing down my neck. . .
Do you think any of those SOB's at HQ sacrificed? I flew on Ambassador One with HA once. He sat in the back of the plane--in a convienent cozy little compartment --swilling booze and being waited on!! Those guys lived well ABOVE the poverty level -- in SIN-- on the money WE sent in!
Private jets--a fleet of cars--motorcycles--A BEAUTIFUL Chalet. . . buildings--grounds-- expensive suits. . .All paid for with OUR money(We paid to send in) and cheap or SLAVE labor.
Irked doesn't cover it. But, I am glad you are smarter than the rest of us peons who still have a bad feeling about what happened. But, then again--IMHO such behavoir deserves a bit of anger.
Would it make you happy to hear we are all stupid for doing it--and we all admire your sound judgment and reason? Is that the point of all this deflection from the real issue?
Well, I will give you this much. . . .I was a very naive silly kid--I really thought I was doing right. . . that should clue you in to how CLUELESS I really was.
Feel better?
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Oakspear
The stamp, and the small cost of it was not the real issue. Many posters have said so, and explained their reasoning. One poster has ignored these explanations and chooses to cling to a misunderstanding, or perhaps a deliberate mischaracterization.
No one has said that they were in misery due to having to pay for postage.
No one said that they missed any meals due to paying for postage.
These statements are either dramatic exagerrations or strawman arguments.
So, there's documentation to supposedly substantiate that twigs were truly self-supporting. This in no way indicates that they actually were.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I believe that twi not only abused people and took advantage of them, but they bred this notion into the heads of their "leadership"
2 quick examples...
A girl who had just started attending my twig was asked by the ordained clergy guy branch leader if she would like to work for him for a day in his window cleaning business...she was badly in need of money and agreed...at the end of the day he refused to pay her telling her that she would be "blessed" for helping him for free...she never came to another twig.
This same "leader" asked a guy in my twig to drive him around town so that he could conduct his business (having a driver made him feel important)...at the end of the day, he refused to give the guy any gas money and made him pay for his own lunch...AND chewed him out because his tires were a little bald and he was endangering the life of God's leader!!!
Wierwille's great con had a trickledown effect and instilled arrogance in many people...When it came to finances, work, or anything else that required effort, twi's policy was to take...not give.
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now I see
Wow Groucho, that branch leader sounds just like someone I remember from twi, were his initials GH? Â
How horrible these abusive people were our "spiritual leaders"!
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Oakspear
I never had a leader expect me to work in his "secular" business, but I spent plenty of time cleaning leader's homes and mowing their lawns as if it was their due.
Whether we fell for it or not, there was an expectation that we should be "blessed" to do work for our leaders that they should have been doing themselves.
TRhis became even more ludicrous when they were working full time for TWI and had no 40 hour gig to go to.
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Rocky
1) I don't see the point of having merged these two threads.
2) What point is there to arguing with whitedove?
:)
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GrouchoMarxJr
No...his initials weren't GH...which only illustrates my point...this was quite widespread. Twi leaders became kings in their own little kingdoms...they felt that their "status" or "title" was a license to use people.
...and anyone who complained was "spiritually immature" and a trouble maker. I was in the corps and I know that what I am saying is true.
I do not recall ever attending any twi meeting (with corps leadership), where giving something to a believer in need was ever discussed...it was ALWAYS...how can we get people to give and do more.
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waysider
I'll need to see the transcripts from those meetings.
:lol:
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