as soon as those people were found out, they were held up as examples of ungodliness and spoken about in the vilest of terms, and not just for withholding money. entire catalogs of sin were opened up. I know that sins were at times made up about people to explain their hard-heartedness, but I also know that lockbox confessions were aired in special meetings to show how people got pulled down so far that they would cheat "the ministry" and "stop the word from moving" by deciding to operate as a welfare agency.
It was made very clear that we were in no way, shape or form to use ABS or money from "love offerings" for postage, money orders, class expenses or anything else at the local level.
That was the official Way International policy as stated by limb leadership on numerous occasions as the question was raised at statewide branch/twig area leader meetings.
I Must have missed that memo cause as far as I see at least from as you put it "official Way International policy" Each twig shall be self supporting,self propagating and self governing. Works for me.......
The point here is not the cost of a stamp, etc.
The point is that the money traveled down a path of no return.
Like a roach motel for personal funds.
The money goes in but it never comes back out.
Makes no difference whatsoever if we are talking about a nickel or a thousand dollars.
Perhaps, but it sure is a lot of whining over a ten cent stamp, I guess the point was obscured what's next the grade of copy paper they used? It still looks like scraping the bottom of the barrel for something to complain about to me.
Fortunately, there were many renegades in twi who didn't follow the rules...I could mention a few, but I will refrain for the sake of discretion.
I know of ordained clergy who withheld ABS in order to help local people who had real problems...If twi was unwilling to follow the admonition of "distribution was made to every man according to their needs"...there were many who took it upon themselves to " do what was necessary"...
"Each twig is self-supporting,self-propagating and self governing."
Anyone remember the example used in "the class" to demonstrate context?
"There is no God".
Yup, that's what it says, right there in the Bible.
Oh, but wait, the context reads:
"The fool hath said in his heart--------There is no God".
Context is a big deal, not just in the Bible, but in everything we read and write.
Now look at that twig statement in context.
Each Twig is self-supporting, self-propagating and self-governing in cooperation with its respective Branch as each Branch is to its respective Limb, as each Limb is to its respective Trunk, as each Trunk is to the Root of the Way.
The Way Tree-------1974
(Bold highlight added for emphasis.)
"In context", it means exactly the opposite of what it means when it is stated "out of context".
Even in a botanical sense, the statement falls flat. A twig on a real tree can't support itself, propagate itself or govern itself. It was all an illusion. Smoke and mirrors, my friends. We never REALLY had any say in where the train was headed. We were just along for the ride.
Wow. Thank you for pointing that out, Waysider. I know I took the way tree class and all that, but for all the times that sentence about a twig being self-**** was quoted, it was almost never quoted in its full context. (and that, from the ministry that prided itself on looking at the full context... oh, man!!)
Once again, I am stunned over something I shouldn't be stunned over... where the heck was my head back then? Oh, I know, it was firmly up... well, never mind.
The point is, I believed in the goodness of twi and its tree structure. To think that a twig had freedom only within the context of the whole tree never struck me as odd because you don't think of a tree as being selective or secretive about what it passes along to the twigs. The same nourishment flows throughout: root to tip. That's what we were told was happening and that's what I believed for so long.
Each Twig is self-supporting, self-propagating and self-governing in cooperation with its respective Branch as each Branch is to its respective Limb, as each Limb is to its respective Trunk, as each Trunk is to the Root of the Way.
The Way Tree-------1974
Thanks waysider.........
In wierwille's setup........self-supporting was the first key element: Do NOT expect one thin dime of financial support from twi's hq. Self-propagating: Each twi needs to reproduce or multiply as hq sits in comfy chairs and sends out teaching tapes each week. Self-governing: Nice in theory, but in actuality the mandating from hq encroached every fiber of every twig, its weekly teachings and policies.
Wierwille's way tree setup was the structuring of his false ministry. Heck,.....if it's "The Word, the Word, and nothing but The Word".....shouldn't wierwille have used Scripture to set his structure on solid footing??...i.e. the One Body, with each member in particular, and Christ as The Head be the right setup, the right analogy to use..???
By sleight of hand, wierwille interchanged words, meanings, cliches, etc to HIS advantage......ALWAYS.
Each Twig is self-supporting, self-propagating and self-governing in cooperation with its respective Branch as each Branch is to its respective Limb, as each Limb is to its respective Trunk, as each Trunk is to the Root of the Way.
looks more like a rough schematic diagram of a multi-level marketing scheme..
if I remember correctly.. the "in cooperation with" indicated that there was a two-way flow of "resources" between twigs and the root.. through the respective structure of course.
so.. what did the branch actually contribute, other than a few bible teachings and barking orders?
and rather heavy hands on training to help one SELL the product?
most twig coordinator meetings I remember.. about 75 percent of the time was spent on who's doing what.. who's been "witnessed" to.. who's following up.. brief anecdotes of individual's successful sells.. refining witnessing techniques..
and if one was not getting "results".. why not? Continual failure to produce for a planned class was pretty bad news..
much like an amway or shaklee meeting in the early seventies. If one could not sell enough soap, "they" really didn't have much use for you..
You're right potato...but not all of them were "found out"...
...it was always about the money with the top twi people.
yeah, the only way to really help people while working within the twi structure was to knowingly rebel against their policies. the only way to make your twig truly self-supporting was to knowingly rebel against twi's policies on handling ABS. so... either twi's policies are just downright "off the word" or the people who did things their own way were "off the word".
and WD, defending twi's policies by telling people they were optional is pretty naive. yeah, some people did it and got away with it for a while, but the witch hunts pretty much wiped them all out. and, if you did it that way, you had to keep it a secret or some well-meaning person in your twig might spill the beans during one of the interrogations that leadership liked to conduct.
and the people are right, it's not the actual cost of the stamps, envelopes, and money orders. it's the fact that twi is so goddam greedy that they wouldn't absorb those costs as a cost of doing business... because bottom line, they are a business.
That's right- the only PROFESSIONAL training the Corps ever got was DALE CARNEGIE
SALES COURSES. Nothing on counseling, or any subject that was actually covered IN
the Corps- only HOW TO SELL A PRODUCT.
</snip>
I realized the damage done by this policy as I was leaving twi.
as a follower of twi, you're expected to rely on your fellowship. if you can't get what you need there (counseling etc.) you're to go up the tree.
too many families were subjected to counseling sessions and advice from untrained and even self-serving leaders. my region coordinator broke the law by failing to report child abuse. he gave me very bad advice. fellowship coordinators gave their opinion on how I should live my life according to what was actually how they liked to live theirs. my ex-husband was directed to give me orders to do things or not do things. a fellowship coordinator also told me to break the law in a family court dispute.
other stories around here range into leadership telling people to beat their children, leadership lying about people to justify M&A, leadership having affairs with members of the flock.
yes, the corps were good at selling whatever lie twi told them to, and if they turned their brains off (as I saw quite a lot of them do), that's all they ended up being able to do. I think corps training sucks the heart out of people.
and if they turned their brains off (as I saw quite a lot of them do), that's all they ended up being able to do.
That's why I think they put these characters in charge in some places..
some people have to develop some REAL intellectual and/or moral incompetence to blindly follow orders..
and they WILL comply.. even if the mandates goes morally and common sense wise against what brain that's left.. they do know enough (and likely are reminded on a regular basis) to realize there is really no other place to go. Wife, kids to feed and support..
"leader in a second-rate cult for over twenty years" wouldn't look so good on a resume. I know some who would have to go back to cleaning windows after not having worked an honest days labor for over twenty years.. at fifty some years old, doesn't sound like a lot of fun.. good luck, you might find the competition a little more fierce these days..
I disagree that those who have brought up the cost of a stamp are whining. No one is claiming that the cost of the stamps put them into financial ruin.
The spotlight should more properly be cast upon the multi-million dollar "ministry" that "whined" about twig leaders deducting postage and money order costs.
. But I disagree that was the complaint if it was, one could have simply stated it as such, rather than whining about a ten cent stamp, and then proceeding to justify it with some cost of living analysis, the evidence clearly indicates that simply by the defense of what financial ruin it caused, it was about the stamp. I doubt it was that big of deal really, just something to complain about
. Actually I'm not sure at one time that we were not told it was ok to take the cost out of the ABS
How many more times do you need to hear it?
It's not about the stamp.
Never was, never will be.
YOU are the one who has redirected this conversation to focus on something other than the the subject at hand.
You should really be ashamed of yourself for criticizing those of us who believed that what we were doing was the proper course of action, taunting us for doing the "right thing" as we knew it. Are you somehow proud that you violated an official (yes, I said official) policy while the vast majority of others complied? By Way standards (whatever that's worth) what you did was tantamount to lying to God. Have you so soon forgotten the lesson of Ananais and Saphira from PLAF? I suppose, at this point, you should be hoping the conclusion reached in that lesson was inaccurate.
We were NEVER told it was OK to use ABS for such expenses. The only explanation I can fathom that would explain your lacking knowledge of this policy, which was verbally conveyed, is that you were never present in any of the countless leadership meetings where this very question was addressed ad infinitum even as early as the early 1970's. And that's fine. I don't care. But don't tell people what they heard or didn't hear if you, yourself, weren't there to hear it.
. . . . . We were NEVER told it was OK to use ABS for such expenses. The only explanation I can fathom that would explain your lacking knowledge of this policy, which was verbally conveyed, is that you were never present in any of the countless leadership meetings where this very question was addressed ad infinitum even as early as the early 1970's. And that's fine. I don't care. But don't tell people what they heard or didn't hear if you, yourself, weren't there to hear it.
I second that. . . We were NEVER told it was okay to take it out of ABS--I remember the drill as a WOW Family/Twig coordinator.
Those stamps and MO's were out of pocket expenses. The whole thing was a pain in the neck. . . not to mention seeing money we could have used to eat with. . . going to Ohio.
On the plus side. . . I went down a few sizes as a WOW.
On the plus side. . . I went down a few sizes as a WOW.
Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron? Plus side, down a few sizes? Sorry nothing personal intended but I couldn't resist noticing the juxtaposition of words...
Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron? Plus side, down a few sizes? Sorry nothing personal intended but I couldn't resist noticing the juxtaposition of words...
Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron? Plus side, down a few sizes? Sorry nothing personal intended but I couldn't resist noticing the juxtaposition of words...
I personally know of one twig in the late 1970's that met several times a week, in and out of scheduled "twig times".
They were all retired people with limited incomes.
They gave very little in terms of ABS or "love offerings" but had an otherwise vibrant, active twig.
Getting together to sing, pray, listen to tapes, etc. was a source of great enjoyment for them.
They were told, by Int. HQ, that, if they wanted to continue on in the same manner, they would have to stop calling it a twig and refrain from stating they were part of The Way Ministry. Of course, the official reason given was that, because they were all retired senior citizens, there was not enough diversity being represented. So much for "self governing".
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waysider
-----------plus the cost of the money order, at a time when the average pay was something like $1.50/hour. But the actual amount is irrelevant. The money collected was supposed to be used to do God'
frank123lol
They(twi) did not CARE how you got the money to them,as long as they got their money,Oh and it better not be late,or you are slothful.You will be reproved,humiliated,marked out.Ok we reproved you,Wher
Tzaia
My memory is that I had more than one corp and WoW person writing me asking for nothing more than stamps, paper, envelopes, and pens. When you don't have much of anything, then stamps are very costly.
potato
as soon as those people were found out, they were held up as examples of ungodliness and spoken about in the vilest of terms, and not just for withholding money. entire catalogs of sin were opened up. I know that sins were at times made up about people to explain their hard-heartedness, but I also know that lockbox confessions were aired in special meetings to show how people got pulled down so far that they would cheat "the ministry" and "stop the word from moving" by deciding to operate as a welfare agency.
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GrouchoMarxJr
You're right potato...but not all of them were "found out"...
...it was always about the money with the top twi people.
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WhiteDove
Exactly...........
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waysider
"Each twig is self-supporting,self-propagating and self governing."
Anyone remember the example used in "the class" to demonstrate context?
"There is no God".
Yup, that's what it says, right there in the Bible.
Oh, but wait, the context reads:
"The fool hath said in his heart--------There is no God".
Context is a big deal, not just in the Bible, but in everything we read and write.
Now look at that twig statement in context.
Each Twig is self-supporting, self-propagating and self-governing in cooperation with its respective Branch as each Branch is to its respective Limb, as each Limb is to its respective Trunk, as each Trunk is to the Root of the Way.
The Way Tree-------1974
(Bold highlight added for emphasis.)
"In context", it means exactly the opposite of what it means when it is stated "out of context".
Even in a botanical sense, the statement falls flat. A twig on a real tree can't support itself, propagate itself or govern itself. It was all an illusion. Smoke and mirrors, my friends. We never REALLY had any say in where the train was headed. We were just along for the ride.
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TheHighWay
Wow. Thank you for pointing that out, Waysider. I know I took the way tree class and all that, but for all the times that sentence about a twig being self-**** was quoted, it was almost never quoted in its full context. (and that, from the ministry that prided itself on looking at the full context... oh, man!!)
Once again, I am stunned over something I shouldn't be stunned over... where the heck was my head back then? Oh, I know, it was firmly up... well, never mind.
The point is, I believed in the goodness of twi and its tree structure. To think that a twig had freedom only within the context of the whole tree never struck me as odd because you don't think of a tree as being selective or secretive about what it passes along to the twigs. The same nourishment flows throughout: root to tip. That's what we were told was happening and that's what I believed for so long.
HAH! I was so naive.
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skyrider
Thanks waysider.........
In wierwille's setup........self-supporting was the first key element: Do NOT expect one thin dime of financial support from twi's hq. Self-propagating: Each twi needs to reproduce or multiply as hq sits in comfy chairs and sends out teaching tapes each week. Self-governing: Nice in theory, but in actuality the mandating from hq encroached every fiber of every twig, its weekly teachings and policies.
Wierwille's way tree setup was the structuring of his false ministry. Heck,.....if it's "The Word, the Word, and nothing but The Word".....shouldn't wierwille have used Scripture to set his structure on solid footing??...i.e. the One Body, with each member in particular, and Christ as The Head be the right setup, the right analogy to use..???
By sleight of hand, wierwille interchanged words, meanings, cliches, etc to HIS advantage......ALWAYS.
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Ham
looks more like a rough schematic diagram of a multi-level marketing scheme..
if I remember correctly.. the "in cooperation with" indicated that there was a two-way flow of "resources" between twigs and the root.. through the respective structure of course.
so.. what did the branch actually contribute, other than a few bible teachings and barking orders?
and rather heavy hands on training to help one SELL the product?
most twig coordinator meetings I remember.. about 75 percent of the time was spent on who's doing what.. who's been "witnessed" to.. who's following up.. brief anecdotes of individual's successful sells.. refining witnessing techniques..
and if one was not getting "results".. why not? Continual failure to produce for a planned class was pretty bad news..
much like an amway or shaklee meeting in the early seventies. If one could not sell enough soap, "they" really didn't have much use for you..
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WordWolf
Ultimately, the only PROFESSIONAL contribution that could come from anyone "on the field"
was whatever they HAD to offer. The only thing vpw was willing to spend any money on
to guarantee a PROFESSIONAL level (as opposed to just putting out the minimum amount
of money to get something done) was DALE CARNEGIE SALES COURSES.
That's right- the only PROFESSIONAL training the Corps ever got was DALE CARNEGIE
SALES COURSES. Nothing on counseling, or any subject that was actually covered IN
the Corps- only HOW TO SELL A PRODUCT.
What is the reason someone's expenses prioritize HOW TO SELL A PRODUCT?
Right- their primary interest is in SELLING A PRODUCT.
What is the reason someone prioritizes SELLING A PRODUCT?
Right-their primary interest is in MAKING MONEY.
That makes sense for a business, but not a supposed "ministry", something to supposedly
"serve God."
"Freely have you received- freely give."
I didn't see EITHER at twi- receiving cost $$ for each class, and each event.
"Giving" was the same.
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waysider
Great responses, one and all.
There are many words that could be used to describe "the twig".
AUTONOMOUS is not one of them.
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potato
yeah, the only way to really help people while working within the twi structure was to knowingly rebel against their policies. the only way to make your twig truly self-supporting was to knowingly rebel against twi's policies on handling ABS. so... either twi's policies are just downright "off the word" or the people who did things their own way were "off the word".
and WD, defending twi's policies by telling people they were optional is pretty naive. yeah, some people did it and got away with it for a while, but the witch hunts pretty much wiped them all out. and, if you did it that way, you had to keep it a secret or some well-meaning person in your twig might spill the beans during one of the interrogations that leadership liked to conduct.
and the people are right, it's not the actual cost of the stamps, envelopes, and money orders. it's the fact that twi is so goddam greedy that they wouldn't absorb those costs as a cost of doing business... because bottom line, they are a business.
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potato
I realized the damage done by this policy as I was leaving twi.
as a follower of twi, you're expected to rely on your fellowship. if you can't get what you need there (counseling etc.) you're to go up the tree.
too many families were subjected to counseling sessions and advice from untrained and even self-serving leaders. my region coordinator broke the law by failing to report child abuse. he gave me very bad advice. fellowship coordinators gave their opinion on how I should live my life according to what was actually how they liked to live theirs. my ex-husband was directed to give me orders to do things or not do things. a fellowship coordinator also told me to break the law in a family court dispute.
other stories around here range into leadership telling people to beat their children, leadership lying about people to justify M&A, leadership having affairs with members of the flock.
yes, the corps were good at selling whatever lie twi told them to, and if they turned their brains off (as I saw quite a lot of them do), that's all they ended up being able to do. I think corps training sucks the heart out of people.
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Ham
That's why I think they put these characters in charge in some places..
some people have to develop some REAL intellectual and/or moral incompetence to blindly follow orders..
and they WILL comply.. even if the mandates goes morally and common sense wise against what brain that's left.. they do know enough (and likely are reminded on a regular basis) to realize there is really no other place to go. Wife, kids to feed and support..
"leader in a second-rate cult for over twenty years" wouldn't look so good on a resume. I know some who would have to go back to cleaning windows after not having worked an honest days labor for over twenty years.. at fifty some years old, doesn't sound like a lot of fun.. good luck, you might find the competition a little more fierce these days..
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cheranne
hmmmm
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Welcome to the hotel Wierwille/Martindale
:unsure: :wacko: :blink: 
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cheranne
sorry someone hacked into all my twi related stuff!
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Oakspear
I disagree that those who have brought up the cost of a stamp are whining. No one is claiming that the cost of the stamps put them into financial ruin.
The spotlight should more properly be cast upon the multi-million dollar "ministry" that "whined" about twig leaders deducting postage and money order costs.
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waysider
How many more times do you need to hear it?
It's not about the stamp.
Never was, never will be.
YOU are the one who has redirected this conversation to focus on something other than the the subject at hand.
You should really be ashamed of yourself for criticizing those of us who believed that what we were doing was the proper course of action, taunting us for doing the "right thing" as we knew it. Are you somehow proud that you violated an official (yes, I said official) policy while the vast majority of others complied? By Way standards (whatever that's worth) what you did was tantamount to lying to God. Have you so soon forgotten the lesson of Ananais and Saphira from PLAF? I suppose, at this point, you should be hoping the conclusion reached in that lesson was inaccurate.
We were NEVER told it was OK to use ABS for such expenses. The only explanation I can fathom that would explain your lacking knowledge of this policy, which was verbally conveyed, is that you were never present in any of the countless leadership meetings where this very question was addressed ad infinitum even as early as the early 1970's. And that's fine. I don't care. But don't tell people what they heard or didn't hear if you, yourself, weren't there to hear it.
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geisha779
I second that. . . We were NEVER told it was okay to take it out of ABS--I remember the drill as a WOW Family/Twig coordinator.
Those stamps and MO's were out of pocket expenses. The whole thing was a pain in the neck. . . not to mention seeing money we could have used to eat with. . . going to Ohio.
On the plus side. . . I went down a few sizes as a WOW.
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RumRunner
Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron? Plus side, down a few sizes? Sorry nothing personal intended but I couldn't resist noticing the juxtaposition of words...
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GrouchoMarxJr
Rumrunner...you nippin' on the rum again tonight?
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RumRunner
Nope Groucho - just my Arrogant B@st@rd Ale from Stone Brewing Company in San Marcos. Yeah that must be it - I'm stickin' with that excuse.
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geisha779
Well, . . . I thought it was pretty cute. :)
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waysider
I personally know of one twig in the late 1970's that met several times a week, in and out of scheduled "twig times".
They were all retired people with limited incomes.
They gave very little in terms of ABS or "love offerings" but had an otherwise vibrant, active twig.
Getting together to sing, pray, listen to tapes, etc. was a source of great enjoyment for them.
They were told, by Int. HQ, that, if they wanted to continue on in the same manner, they would have to stop calling it a twig and refrain from stating they were part of The Way Ministry. Of course, the official reason given was that, because they were all retired senior citizens, there was not enough diversity being represented. So much for "self governing".
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Ham
It was pathetic.. I mean, we gave them hundreds and thousands of dollars.. slick vic and company were rich beyond their wildest dreams..
and they STILL hit us up for spare change. like bullies at school trying to shake the last fifty cents out of a kid's pocket..
I'm suprised we didn't have to print up our own blue forms..
we had to hustle every venue one could imagine, to give twi free room and board for branch meetings, classes, etc..
they couldn't offer the consideration of a POSTAGE STAMP.. and figure it in as administrative costs..
they are to "christianity" what walmart is to retail business..
miserable, cheap bastards..
call it whining if you want. I call it indicting..
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