What about today? Are "real" churches required to send donors statements for tax purposes? I don't belong to any church so have no idea. Seems like they ought to.
Mine does. CES did the same thing.
Also, my memory on this is vague, but I seem to recall HQ required money orders to be sent and didn't want any personal checks. Anyone else remember that?
We sent persona checks always, but we've itemized since we've owned a home since we've been married. We also never gave through the twig unless it was to help pay for something used within our twig or branch.
We were told to do all sorts of things, but we ignored any directives which seemed unreasonable.
I heard stories of people who put cash in the horn getting reamed from higher up the food chain for not ABS'ing, so I always paid my membership dues by check.
I recall not being allowed to write a personal check to replace cash ABS, (get a MO instead) but we always did checks for our own ABS. This made sense actually, because using my own check to cover twig cash abs would allow me to ostensibly claim more of a charitable donation come tax time.
I too remember getting personal year end statements for awhile, but not for the twig blue forms. Seems that did not last long, and only lasted thru the IRS investigation years of the mid to late 70s as I recall.
In the late 70's. early 80's , I filled out those blue forms when I was coordinating twigs. I never saw a statement from hq. I did have a branch coord pull out my forms during a twig leaders meeting and go through them. "How come Joe Smith gave this much this week, and not as much the following week". From that moment on I stopped writing names next to contributions, unless someone wanted it for tax purposes, which was almost never since no one earned enough money to itemize anyway.
For all of it's talk about attention to detail, I found most communication with hq shoddy at best. With all the moving around I did, I never sent a change of address to Ohio. It wasn't until I took the advanced class that they had an address for me, and that only lasted until I moved. Interesting in that I was usually a twig coordinator, with no subscription to the way rag, and only getting 'official' letters when they came through the state limb coord.
...and think about all the money that was collected in the form of cash...all the big meetings where they passed the "horn"...are you kidding me? They would screw your wife but they wouldn't lie about the money?
Thanks Groucho......I saw this last night and am still laughing.
When it came to the money, Vic Wierwille had it going on...I'll bet they had boxes of cash that nobody knew about...probably hidden in their secret bunker next to the cases of automatic weapons...
...and today, they continue to live off the assets of yesteryear. Outreach, new classes, ABS, new money making ventures....they aren't important anymore. The people running the show are content with riding out their remaining years living off twi's assets....40 million drawing interest.
All they need to do is keep up the facade of being a tax exempt religious organization. That's their goal...that's their mission.
They(twi) did not CARE how you got the money to them,as long as they got their money,Oh and it better not be late,or you are slothful.You will be reproved,humiliated,marked out.Ok we reproved you,Where is the next check?Increase it to15 percent or god will not spit in your direction.
Gods work you say?Why! It is gods work for me to have a 2000 dollar suit,and 250 dollar shoes,riding in a brand new Lincoln mark.To hell with the needs of the "believers".Oh and God bless you,You are the best!!
Many things with TWI seemed back-asswards to me. It seemed to me that HQ should have been sending money to its WOWs, to help us get settled in "the field" and take care of at least part of our needs. HQ invested nothing in us to help us succeed. Nothing. I'm all for self-reliance, but if you want me to wear your stupid nametag and sell your wares, YOU should be paying ME.
And I never liked all that "field" talk, sending WOWs out into "the field" like we were going onto a battlefield. It wasn't a battlefield. It was the US! It was Alabama, for cryin out loud! Field, schmield. The only field I knew about that needed a battle waged upon it was the field where HQ sat. But I suppose that was part of the mystique, wasn't it. We were spiritual warriors out there, making minimum wage and driving cars that belonged in a junk yard.
Really? are we lamenting over the price of a stamp in the 70's what was it six or eight cents? :blink:
My memory is that I had more than one corp and WoW person writing me asking for nothing more than stamps, paper, envelopes, and pens. When you don't have much of anything, then stamps are very costly.
Stamps went from 6 cents to 15 cents during the 70s. If ABS had to be sent in every week using a money order that cost around 50 cents and stamps that cost around 10 cents each, that would be over $31 a year - or 7 hours of wages at minimum wage, or a week's worth of groceries, or 3 weeks of gas money - at least for me and my family during that time. That is not an insignificant to a person who is struggling to put food on the table, a roof over his/her head, and trying to get to work every day.
If it was sent in once a month, then it would have been less costly - only $7 per year.
My memory is that I had more than one corp and WoW person writing me asking for nothing more than stamps, paper, envelopes, and pens. When you don't have much of anything, then stamps are very costly.
Stamps went from 6 cents to 15 cents during the 70s. If ABS had to be sent in every week using a money order that cost around 50 cents and stamps that cost around 10 cents each, that would be over $31 a year - or 7 hours of wages at minimum wage, or a week's worth of groceries, or 3 weeks of gas money - at least for me and my family during that time. That is not an insignificant to a person who is struggling to put food on the table, a roof over his/her head, and trying to get to work every day.
I faced that same struggle, I don't know it never seemed to be such a problem, I spent more on coffee , sounds like more of scraping the bottom of the barrel to dig up something to complain about to me......... But if it was such a big deal that it sent you into financial ruin. I think there were solutions...... for instance I opened a free checking account, banks give those to community groups especially then. I sent a check from that account with the fellowship name that way it was not claimable on my income. In some 18 years I never heard one word from INT. most of the money was undesignated cash but if someone wanted the credit the blue form accompanied it. As for the stamp all of eight to ten cents, you could have taken it from your ABS or even from the collection. we always seemed to have change rattling around somewhere. I'd say that was a legitimate cost of doing business. Gosh if you were that desperate you could have cashed in a few pop bottles....... I'd be more concerned why as little as $2.80 had such a impact on your financial life.
I find it interesting that you gave 10% of the income you are lamenting about ,yet your complaint is about pennies. It doesnt add up if you were in such a financial state it seems to me that the 10% was the bigger problem of the two. And yet you are justifing the cost of a stamp.
As for the stamp all of eight to ten cents, you could have taken it from your ABS or even from the collection.
You are grossly mistaken.
It was made very clear that we were in no way, shape or form to use ABS or money from "love offerings" for postage, money orders, class expenses or anything else at the local level.
That was the official Way International policy as stated by limb leadership on numerous occasions as the question was raised at statewide branch/twig area leader meetings.
The point here is not the cost of a stamp, etc.
The point is that the money traveled down a path of no return.
Like a roach motel for personal funds.
The money goes in but it never comes back out.
Makes no difference whatsoever if we are talking about a nickel or a thousand dollars.
I view it as one last shakedown of "believers".. for a stinking envelope, and a friggin twenty-nine cent stamp.. after giving one's shirt, they nickeled and dimed us, to DEATH..
oh, they did send out the anniversary envelopes for one to contribute over and above for ministry "holidays".. send money in one of them? You would DEFINITELY be noticed if the customary amount didn't go in the horn that week.
They(twi)played off we were honest,If they asked we would tell.
Man, if that don't just hit the nail smack dab on the proverbial head!!
They were kind enough to inform us that if we were ever less than completely honest and open to "leadership" inquiries, we would somehow suffer spiritual consequences because it was out of fellowship to disobey a leader. Same thing as disobeying God, really. Heck, they could have gotten the order they fired at you by direct revelation from God Almighty! Doesn't get much heavier than that, now does it?
Good gravy! Might even wind up like old Ananais and Saphira. They lied to God and woke up dead the next morning. No siree, even a nickel out of that horn could cost you plenty. And they will know. They'll see it in your failure to manifest positives. Yep, they'll just know.
I find it interesting that you gave 10% of the income you are lamenting about ,yet your complaint is about pennies. It doesnt add up if you were in such a financial state it seems to me that the 10% was the bigger problem of the two. And yet you are justifing the cost of a stamp.
You need to read what's written on the page. I wasn't referring to my situation specifically. I was referring to the cost of food, gas, and wages in general, and how the cost of weekly mailing ABS could affect the average person working for minimum wage.
You were saying it was no big deal and I was quantifying the accumulated costs. If you want to spend money on coffee and you figured out a way to keep the costs down that worked with HQ, more power to you. Other's didn't feel they had choices.
I don't believe in the tithe now and I didn't then, either. I believe charity begins at home, particularly when I saw OPM being squandered on Harley tours.
Many things with TWI seemed back-asswards to me. It seemed to me that HQ should have been sending money to its WOWs, to help us get settled in "the field" and take care of at least part of our needs. HQ invested nothing in us to help us succeed. Nothing. I'm all for self-reliance, but if you want me to wear your stupid nametag and sell your wares, YOU should be paying ME.
And I never liked all that "field" talk, sending WOWs out into "the field" like we were going onto a battlefield. It wasn't a battlefield. It was the US! It was Alabama, for cryin out loud! Field, schmield. The only field I knew about that needed a battle waged upon it was the field where HQ sat. But I suppose that was part of the mystique, wasn't it. We were spiritual warriors out there, making minimum wage and driving cars that belonged in a junk yard.
some of us didn't even have cars..
I didn't have one until about four years later either.. couldn't afford it.. some promise of material "abundance"..
not complaining.. those are just the facts of the case..
Maybe someone should have read Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol" to Wierwille, Martindale, Howard Allen, and the rest of the gang. Proably VPW and LCM would have exorcised the Christmas spirits as devil spirits, and never changed their attitude. (or is it?).
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waysider
-----------plus the cost of the money order, at a time when the average pay was something like $1.50/hour. But the actual amount is irrelevant. The money collected was supposed to be used to do God'
frank123lol
They(twi) did not CARE how you got the money to them,as long as they got their money,Oh and it better not be late,or you are slothful.You will be reproved,humiliated,marked out.Ok we reproved you,Wher
Tzaia
My memory is that I had more than one corp and WoW person writing me asking for nothing more than stamps, paper, envelopes, and pens. When you don't have much of anything, then stamps are very costly.
Tzaia
Mine does. CES did the same thing.
We sent persona checks always, but we've itemized since we've owned a home since we've been married. We also never gave through the twig unless it was to help pay for something used within our twig or branch.
We were told to do all sorts of things, but we ignored any directives which seemed unreasonable.
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potato
I heard stories of people who put cash in the horn getting reamed from higher up the food chain for not ABS'ing, so I always paid my membership dues by check.
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HAPe4me
I recall not being allowed to write a personal check to replace cash ABS, (get a MO instead) but we always did checks for our own ABS. This made sense actually, because using my own check to cover twig cash abs would allow me to ostensibly claim more of a charitable donation come tax time.
I too remember getting personal year end statements for awhile, but not for the twig blue forms. Seems that did not last long, and only lasted thru the IRS investigation years of the mid to late 70s as I recall.
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waysider
Converting the cash to a money order seemed to make sense.
What DIDN'T make sense was having to use personal funds to pay for the cost of the money order and postage.
Most of us hardly had enough money to buy lunch.
We were expressly forbidden to use any of the ABS for such things.
After all, look what happened to Ananais and Saphira!!
Wouldn't want to end up dead like them, now would we?
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hiway29
In the late 70's. early 80's , I filled out those blue forms when I was coordinating twigs. I never saw a statement from hq. I did have a branch coord pull out my forms during a twig leaders meeting and go through them. "How come Joe Smith gave this much this week, and not as much the following week". From that moment on I stopped writing names next to contributions, unless someone wanted it for tax purposes, which was almost never since no one earned enough money to itemize anyway.
For all of it's talk about attention to detail, I found most communication with hq shoddy at best. With all the moving around I did, I never sent a change of address to Ohio. It wasn't until I took the advanced class that they had an address for me, and that only lasted until I moved. Interesting in that I was usually a twig coordinator, with no subscription to the way rag, and only getting 'official' letters when they came through the state limb coord.
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frank123lol
Those at the top committed hienous acts,why do we think they would not steal too?
Alot of monies I bet were never reported.
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skyrider
Thanks Groucho......I saw this last night and am still laughing.
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WhiteDove
Really? are we lamenting over the price of a stamp in the 70's what was it six or eight cents? :blink:
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GrouchoMarxJr
When it came to the money, Vic Wierwille had it going on...I'll bet they had boxes of cash that nobody knew about...probably hidden in their secret bunker next to the cases of automatic weapons...
...and today, they continue to live off the assets of yesteryear. Outreach, new classes, ABS, new money making ventures....they aren't important anymore. The people running the show are content with riding out their remaining years living off twi's assets....40 million drawing interest.
All they need to do is keep up the facade of being a tax exempt religious organization. That's their goal...that's their mission.
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waysider
-----------plus the cost of the money order, at a time when the average pay was something like $1.50/hour.
But the actual amount is irrelevant.
The money collected was supposed to be used to do God's work.
Why is it that this part of the process didn't fit that definition?
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frank123lol
They(twi) did not CARE how you got the money to them,as long as they got their money,Oh and it better not be late,or you are slothful.You will be reproved,humiliated,marked out.Ok we reproved you,Where is the next check?Increase it to15 percent or god will not spit in your direction.
Gods work you say?Why! It is gods work for me to have a 2000 dollar suit,and 250 dollar shoes,riding in a brand new Lincoln mark.To hell with the needs of the "believers".Oh and God bless you,You are the best!!
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OperaBuff
Exactly right, waysider.
Many things with TWI seemed back-asswards to me. It seemed to me that HQ should have been sending money to its WOWs, to help us get settled in "the field" and take care of at least part of our needs. HQ invested nothing in us to help us succeed. Nothing. I'm all for self-reliance, but if you want me to wear your stupid nametag and sell your wares, YOU should be paying ME.
And I never liked all that "field" talk, sending WOWs out into "the field" like we were going onto a battlefield. It wasn't a battlefield. It was the US! It was Alabama, for cryin out loud! Field, schmield. The only field I knew about that needed a battle waged upon it was the field where HQ sat. But I suppose that was part of the mystique, wasn't it. We were spiritual warriors out there, making minimum wage and driving cars that belonged in a junk yard.
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Tzaia
My memory is that I had more than one corp and WoW person writing me asking for nothing more than stamps, paper, envelopes, and pens. When you don't have much of anything, then stamps are very costly.
Stamps went from 6 cents to 15 cents during the 70s. If ABS had to be sent in every week using a money order that cost around 50 cents and stamps that cost around 10 cents each, that would be over $31 a year - or 7 hours of wages at minimum wage, or a week's worth of groceries, or 3 weeks of gas money - at least for me and my family during that time. That is not an insignificant to a person who is struggling to put food on the table, a roof over his/her head, and trying to get to work every day.
If it was sent in once a month, then it would have been less costly - only $7 per year.
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outandabout
I remember being told that we should get our ABS in ASAP because Howard Allen said they were losing on interest.
It annoyed me that they couldn't even be happy that they were getting the money. If it's a "non-profit" why would it matter?
(Non-profit my a$$)
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WhiteDove
I faced that same struggle, I don't know it never seemed to be such a problem, I spent more on coffee , sounds like more of scraping the bottom of the barrel to dig up something to complain about to me......... But if it was such a big deal that it sent you into financial ruin. I think there were solutions...... for instance I opened a free checking account, banks give those to community groups especially then. I sent a check from that account with the fellowship name that way it was not claimable on my income. In some 18 years I never heard one word from INT. most of the money was undesignated cash but if someone wanted the credit the blue form accompanied it. As for the stamp all of eight to ten cents, you could have taken it from your ABS or even from the collection. we always seemed to have change rattling around somewhere. I'd say that was a legitimate cost of doing business. Gosh if you were that desperate you could have cashed in a few pop bottles....... I'd be more concerned why as little as $2.80 had such a impact on your financial life.
I find it interesting that you gave 10% of the income you are lamenting about ,yet your complaint is about pennies. It doesnt add up if you were in such a financial state it seems to me that the 10% was the bigger problem of the two. And yet you are justifing the cost of a stamp.
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cheranne
right.we were just glad to have deodorant and tampons,bible highlighters maybe a care package from
home and then in the end that piece of crap tin wow pin made in china.
We had better things to do like believe(cough)for a ride to work to pay the fat cat more !
All so wows could row the slave ship more to the point of no return,but.....wasn't it worth it all cause we
we "The Best"
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waysider
You are grossly mistaken.
It was made very clear that we were in no way, shape or form to use ABS or money from "love offerings" for postage, money orders, class expenses or anything else at the local level.
That was the official Way International policy as stated by limb leadership on numerous occasions as the question was raised at statewide branch/twig area leader meetings.
The point here is not the cost of a stamp, etc.
The point is that the money traveled down a path of no return.
Like a roach motel for personal funds.
The money goes in but it never comes back out.
Makes no difference whatsoever if we are talking about a nickel or a thousand dollars.
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Ham
I view it as one last shakedown of "believers".. for a stinking envelope, and a friggin twenty-nine cent stamp.. after giving one's shirt, they nickeled and dimed us, to DEATH..
oh, they did send out the anniversary envelopes for one to contribute over and above for ministry "holidays".. send money in one of them? You would DEFINITELY be noticed if the customary amount didn't go in the horn that week.
But no stamp on it or prepayed.
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frank123lol
They(twi)played off we were honest,If they asked we would tell.
Now it would be F@$k them!! I t aint nor ever was gods money.
No wonder,if even in the stretch of the imagination the "law of believing'
never worked for fo the majority of us.
A stamp or a money order subtracted from their precious abs would not have mattered.
They(twi) truly has a wicked dollar.
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waysider
Man, if that don't just hit the nail smack dab on the proverbial head!!
They were kind enough to inform us that if we were ever less than completely honest and open to "leadership" inquiries, we would somehow suffer spiritual consequences because it was out of fellowship to disobey a leader. Same thing as disobeying God, really. Heck, they could have gotten the order they fired at you by direct revelation from God Almighty! Doesn't get much heavier than that, now does it?
Good gravy! Might even wind up like old Ananais and Saphira. They lied to God and woke up dead the next morning. No siree, even a nickel out of that horn could cost you plenty. And they will know. They'll see it in your failure to manifest positives. Yep, they'll just know.
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Tzaia
You need to read what's written on the page. I wasn't referring to my situation specifically. I was referring to the cost of food, gas, and wages in general, and how the cost of weekly mailing ABS could affect the average person working for minimum wage.
You were saying it was no big deal and I was quantifying the accumulated costs. If you want to spend money on coffee and you figured out a way to keep the costs down that worked with HQ, more power to you. Other's didn't feel they had choices.
I don't believe in the tithe now and I didn't then, either. I believe charity begins at home, particularly when I saw OPM being squandered on Harley tours.
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waysider
Your ABS dollars at work
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Ham
some of us didn't even have cars..
I didn't have one until about four years later either.. couldn't afford it.. some promise of material "abundance"..
not complaining.. those are just the facts of the case..
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Maybe someone should have read Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol" to Wierwille, Martindale, Howard Allen, and the rest of the gang. Proably VPW and LCM would have exorcised the Christmas spirits as devil spirits, and never changed their attitude.
(or is it?).
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