Plagiarism Again?

[spectrum49]

Hi All!

Did TWI base its presentation of “Athletes of the Spirit” on the same theme which was behind the movie “Staying Alive”? I should have noticed this long ago myself when it first came out. Nevertheless, my wife brought this to my attention recently, so I first watched the movie and then TWI’s “original” production again on VHS, finding so many similarities that it I CANNOT BELIEVE they are coincidental!

I’ve made up MY MIND – you decide for yourself – here are some facts:

First of all, consider the timing. “Staying Alive”, starring John Travolta was released in mid-1983, and was a major success. Allow a few months to a year or so for the public to either see it at the movies or wait until its release in the video stores. Now it is mid-1984. Consider TWI choosing this “hot idea” to EMMULATE. Allow about a year or so to write the script, build sets, score music, have TWI orchestra learn the score, the players memorize their lines and practice the choreography. Then after all of that, try teaching LCM how to “dance” – if you can really call it that – HEY! – better make it at least another 6 months after that thought! We are now around the beginning of 1986. Give ‘em all another 6 months to rehearse it and VOILA! – You are now pretty damn near the Fall of 1986 – “Athletes of the Spirit” was released in the Autumn of 1986. Now, I could be sorely mistaken, but it sure looks to me like they didn’t waste any time considering, except to get busy PLAGERIZING! NEED I SAY ANY MORE? But there IS more…….

The movie is about a dancer who gets a part in a Broadway play entitled “Satan’s Alley” and is about a man who descends into hell to do battle with demonic spirits. His main adversary is a seductive woman, who wears crimson-red tights and heavy eye make-up.

The TWI’s production is about a man also doing battle against devil spirits, his main adversary being a seducing spirit, played by a woman wearing crimson-red tights and heavy eye make-up….hmmmm!

In both shows steel cages of several heights with platforms atop were used for various dancers to perform on, and the “evil woman” usually descended from the highest one to get to the man on the floor below to tempt him. Many other demons were either writing (oops! editing now = writhing) on the floor, or stood up to fight against the man. In both cases, at times you hear the groaning of demons in the background; and again in both, many of the other women’s tights are similarly designed with sequins.

In both productions there was a lot of smoke near the floor, many lasers or spotlights to indicate lightening, and of course lots of thunder.

The lead dancer Travolta wore a headband and so did LCM, except Craig’s was multi-colored like a spectrum (the result of the refraction of light) signifying himself as godly because God calls Himself light in the Bible. Their costumes were also similar in fashion; sometimes tights, sometimes loin cloths.

In both scenarios, the final act is winning against the seductive female demon. In the movie, the man holds her in the air as a bolt of lightening strikes her from above, and TWI’s method is to have Craig give her (the “antichrist”) a fatal karate-chop while bent over his knee. Was he playing Jesus Christ or God to do that? (I thought he was just an ordinary believer who rose up to be a leader…hmmmm!)

Maybe many of you out there remember these two shows, or can watch them again and respond to this post with even more valuable input! Thank you all in advance!

One last note: If you cannot find the “Athletes of the Spirit” for FREE, I would not suggest paying even a nickel for it. If you want to pay to see something, go rent an old “spaghetti western” or something. (no offense to Old West fans out there! – Ha! Ha!)

SPEC

Edited November 22, 2008 by spectrum49

[WordWolf]

Let's see, a few of the previous posts about this....

I feel a derailing coming on

I remember when they were working on AOS, Du*e Cl*rke told me that they had modeled the production from the movie, "Staying Alive" with John Travolta. I think that is what it was called. He is a dancer and has a rival(female) and the whole scaffolding scene is in the movie too. D#ke mentioned to me how many millions it took to make the Travolta movie, and that TWI was making it for much less. Can't remember the figures exactly.

'til the next time...

This reminds me of the whole athletes of the spirit fiasco....<BR><BR>

LCM came to the advanced class ...he was so excited about having seen the *staying alive* movie with John Travolta....there was a scene where in the production John Travolta was doing involving a battle with devil spirits....Lcm was all hepped up about how twi could do it better ....more accuratly more skillfully more dramatically...yada yada ...and thus the conception of aos was born...simply because HE, lcm wanted to show the wolrd how twi could do it bigger and better than Holly wood ever could......

You know........even vpw couldn`t dissuade him from it....

That ws the way it always was when I was in twi....if they hadn`t done it first....it wasn`t worth doing..

Twi`s critisisms are so childish.

"NO NO NO.....YOU STILL DONT UNDERSTAND.........<BR>John Travolta stole that line from LCM!!!"

---------------------------

Radar, how could I forget that any original idea comes from the mog/wog because God gave it by revelation? Man, am I becoming natural-minded or what??? I better go renew my mind, and then tell God what I want Him to do (since that's how I used to pray as a Wayfer.)

I guess I should have remembered that since "Stayin' Alive" stole ideas from "Athletes of the Spirit" (even though Stayin' Alive" came out almost 2 years BEFORE AOS).

I've been out of twi for over a year and already I'm missng the cutting edge of being spiritual....... :P-->

ckeer, Jun 16 2005, 02:38 PM , "Athletes of the Spirit" thread.

"I assume you are talking about the movie Staying Alive and the Show within the movie- Satans Alley. I remeber LCM saying he used it as a basis for Atheletes- I think I rember him showing clips from it at an explanation/ teaching about AOS."

TheHighWay, Jun 16 2005, 11:52 AM, same thread.

"Do you all remember that Loy-boy accused Sly of stealing his ideas for this movie from their original Athletes ROA production?

Supposedly that was part of the reason Loy wanted to do a full-blown AOS... he stated he wanted to "do it right" and thumb his nose at Hollywood's devil spirits.

Oh my... talk about ego."

Bob, Jun 17 2005, 11:23 AM, same thread.

"Here's what I recall Craig saying about AOS and Staying Alive:

Sometime in the late 70's / early 80's, TWI did a skit on the ROA stage about AOS. Supposedly, someone from Hollywood was in the audience watching, liked what he saw, and copied it for use in Staying Alive.

Loy got ticked off when Staying Alive came out, said they copied their ROA skit. So Loy copied, verbatim, the Satan's Alley section for AOS.

If anyone can be sued for copyright infringement, it would be TWI by the producers of Staying Alive."

outandabout, Jun 17 2005, 12:53 PM.

"LCM came through San Diego one time around 1984-85. He used a scripture about learning things from "a little bird."

In other words, the devil could transmit info via devil spirits. Thus, the original Athletes from ROA was given to the people who made "Stayin Alive." Therefore, TWI could take what they did in the movie and use it because it originally came from TWI.

Uh huh... of course it all made sense to me at the time because LCM said it.

He also was on his Seed of the Serpent trip. His big example was Steven Spielberg."

TheHighWay, Jun 17 2005, 09:35 PM.

" I was in-rez the year they were working on AOS, and every time Craig came to town (Emporia) he would talk at great length about every aspect of the production... his thought processes, the reasons behind all the costumes and dance moves, blah-dee-blah-blah... I'm sure I have the specifics somewhere in my notes, but off the top of my head, he stated that Sly Stallone was clearly "influenced" because at the time he and his wife were planning the timing of the conception of their child with star charts and the like. Because Sly was "influenced" he was getting insight into how to put "Satan's Alley" together accurately... ruling spirits, underling spirits, the decadence,writhing, etc. Craig said he wanted to do it from a Godly, Biblically accurate perspective. (essentially showing the devil up, not that he put it like that)."

My list of ripoffs from that thread:

"I caught the "Satan's Alley" segment.

They could have sued his head off.

"Satan's Alley" features:

the scaffolding

the villianess in red

the villains in masks

the grasping/writhing

the "hero" in white

the rising podium section

the grunting/yelling sound effects

the jumping combat

the flying kick

the white light representing the presence of God

the one-one-one combat towards the end with the guy's shirt off"

==============

Rascal, from the thread on the Passion of the Christ,

Mar 24 2004, 11:39 AM

"This reminds me of the whole athletes of the spirit fiasco....

LCM came to the advanced class ...he was so excited about having seen the *staying alive* movie with John Travolta....there was a scene where in the production John Travolta was doing involving a battle with devil spirits....Lcm was all hepped up about how twi could do it better ....more accuratly more skillfully more dramatically...yada yada ...and thus the conception of aos was born...simply because HE, lcm wanted to show the wolrd how twi could do it bigger and better than Holly wood ever could......

You know........even vpw couldn`t dissuade him from it....

That ws the way it always was when I was in twi....if they hadn`t done it first....it wasn`t worth doing...

Twi`s critisisms are so childish."

(snip)

Well, I can give you one example of LCM copying someone else's work - Athletes of the Spirit: the dance production.

He took that from Travolta's movie Stayin' Alive.

Of course, LCM said, in explanation, that God gave him the revelation first and once it was out there,

the debil got ahold of it, and was able to use it before LCM had a chance to get it together.

Yeah, right.

At one point in my life I bought that bs, but not anymore. Not Anymore.

[spectrum49]

Let's see, a few of the previous posts about this....

Thanks for the assistance WordWolf! I am rather new here, and should have realized this is an old topic. Who here at GreaseSpot could not have noticed such a blatant similarity between these two productions? (My wife and I rather saw this on our own, though.)

However, your response caused me to study just a bit about the site here and learn how to use their wonderful SEARCH ENGINE!

I learned how to use boolean operators to narrow the search and also noticed it seems best to "list the matches as posts". I simply entered: +staying +alive +athletes +spirit. The results were few and simple.

Thank you for "alerting me" about this nice feature, and have a good day!

:)

Spec

[potato]

this reminds me that I've never seen staying alive (although I absolutely love the song by the bee gees!) so I should go rent it.

I thought AOS was stupid the first time I saw it. I didn't know who lcm was and when I complained about what an awful dancer he was and why would anyone let him dance the lead, I was soundly chastised and told that he was a football player who so wanted to serve god that he learned to dance just so he could dance in that production.

Edited November 22, 2008 by potato

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

If I remember correctly, the lead was to be danced by a male Broadway dancer(supposedly homosexual) and the female lead suggested Craig as the substitute(maybe he "bagged"her in the dressing room?) :huh: <_< :unsure: :wacko: :blink: :ph34r:

[GrouchoMarxJr]

If I remember correctly, the lead was to be danced by a male Broadway dancer(supposedly homosexual) and the female lead suggested Craig as the substitute(maybe he "bagged"her in the dressing room?) :huh: <_< :unsure: :wacko: :blink: :ph34r:

bagged her?...to be sure. It was common knowledge that lcm was having sex with the female "serpent seed" lady in the production...and turning her husband into a cuckold in the process.

He destroyed that marriage as well as many others...minister of God?...right, and I'm the fifth Beatle.

[shazdancer]

I recall seeing the original dance that later sparked the big production. It was during the time when Wierwille was first pushing this "athletes" thing, his reinterpretation of Ephesians 6. He said that he would like to see some of those things depicted in the arts, as they could be made much more vivid. I suppose the choreographer's original attempt was a response to that suggestion -- which was supposed to be taken as a command, of course.

I don't recall any of the battle with devils thing that was put in the later production. I could be wrong, it was a long time ago, but I think I would have recalled the choreographer as seductress and writhing demons!

So that stuff about someone from Staying Alive seeing the original is bogus, as the original wasn't anything like Staying Alive. And we were taught in TWI that the adversary was in the 5 senses realm, and could only counterfeit something that had been in the 5 senses realm. So Staying Alive could not have been a counterfeit or AOS, since Staying Alive came first.

And yeah, sounds like TWI could have had their butts sued, and since Staying Alive certainly registered their copyright, they could have lost a bundle (a fine of up to $100K and any profits made from the production).

-- Shaz

[WordWolf]

Here is a tidbit on the AOS project which I have found to be an example of the seduction of self and hubris that is part of what makes the an organization like TWI a cult.

I was at gunnysack for the first block of the in residence 16th WC training. My twig coordinator was Terr* G*ll, who had been heavily involved in producing AOS.

One day she shared how LCM became the lead character. It was at her and another woman’s suggestion. Their reasoning was that since they were having such a difficult time find a male lead with the technical skill and the “spiritual awareness” or words to that effect that it would be easier to teach LCM how to dance (since he had all that natural athletic ability) than it would be to teach a good performer spiritual matters to the depth required for such a critical role.

How could LCM say no? (He asked VP and he did not nix it)-- This what caused his head to puff up in the picture above-- As a result the whole process and production helped bring out establish and the worst in LCM fed by an almost rock and roll entourage of ego reinforcement. I believe that LCM's role in AOS litteraly set the stage for and established his role for the fog years and TWI II.

Part of what makes a cult a cult is that it brings out the worst in people: particularly leaders, all the while making it appear to themselves, other leaders and the committed followers that it is actually their best.

If he had just stayed in narration like he did in two scenes, he would have been fine.

(The productiion would still have been a bad idea, but not so painful to watch.)

I also think that different people may well be convinced that they talked lcm into

being the lead, even twisting his arm around it,

but I personally believe he had himself in mind for the lead from the beginning,

and just made sure to drop vague hints until someone suggested it so he could

be surprised.

Coolchef, I'm with you, he could have walked through it (kinda like Rex Harrison speaking his songs). But the idea that they "couldn't find" anyone was horsepucky. There were enough connections to NYC believers alone to come up with a Twiggie who could do the job. There were also believers who were connected to U of Utah dance department, and other places. And the original guy could have done a better job than LCM in a heartbeat.

Makes me think that LCM kinda "hinted" that he wanted the job, as has been suggested.

And once it became clear (and it had to be clear to the dancers, even with Waybrain) that Craig was not going to be able to do the part, why was no one able to admit that the emperor had no clothes? I'm betting that there were a lot of conversations behind closed doors, but that LCM had them convinced that "spirituality" was maore important than ability.

Add to that, that the choreographer's eyes were blinded by something less than "spiritual," and I think we have us a star....

Regards,

Shaz

I'm with you guys.

Yeah. The story was that they talked Craig into doing it. Craig created such a buzz around it though. It was hard to "hear" anything without getting caught up in the buzz. From my POV the initial excitement was aound us doing the biggest Way Productions thing we'd ever done in the ministry. There was all of this biggest & the best stuff buzzing around it...

It was like the Jedi mind trick from the Star Wars movies. You know where Luke Skywalker rides up in his scooter and the Storm Troopers are guarding the gate? Luke says to the guard while he waves his Jedi finger across the guards view,

"I need to get through here..."

Guard then says, in a dazed manner, not even knowing what he's saying.... "You need to get through here..."

Skywalker, "Yes, I'll be passing through now...."

Guard, "Yes, pass through now."

It was like whatever Craig said, had to happen. It was like we had no choice. He talked about how he was actually living the part of the Athlete of the Spirit "minister" while he was going to consult with all of the best minds in the minstry to formulate his training routine. He was going to get back into competitive shape, cut some weight, re-tone some muscle, gain some flexibility, learn the dance and martial arts moves and do this awesome thing.

What was most awesome about it was the fact that he actually WAS doing it. I think people just assumed that H@yw@rd Ch@ppell would do the lead role. After all H@yw@rd Ch@ppell had danced the lead in every Way Prod Dance thing out of HQ for like the past ten years, as had Murphy. It was like a no-brainer. Hayward already had the body, the skills, and the experience w/Way Prod dancing the role even. I felt like it was a sort of slap in Hayward's face that after all he'd done to help build The Way Dance Co. he was "out" when the company did it's biggest thing ever.

It was like "all of the top" people in various areas did their thing in Athletes. Hayward handled the snub graciously. I actually figured that Craig would do some sort of scaled down version of dancing. There was just no way a bulky tight end football player could become a graceful dancer and hang with Murphy.

They said part of the reasoning was height. There were a few guys in the cast who could have handled the role easily. They were way too short to partner Murphy. The rehearsals were closed. They only folks who saw Craig prior to the show were the other dancers who trained and rehearsed separately from Murphy & Craig. He actually did a lot of his training/rehearsing away from HQ in Cleveland where Murphy lived. He just Jedi mind tricked us,

"My training is coming along, I've lost __________ much weight."

He was getting slimmer. He had stories about funny things in his training and how he felt about what he called trading in his spikes for the little dancing shoes. It wasn't until it was unveiled when it was like, "What?" Then it was like too late to make any changes. Plus. YOU tell the boss his dancing sucks.

Gee boss, you look like a dancin' bull in china shop!

[spectrum49]

Wow Wordwolf!

What you showed was so right-on! I believe this topic is now covered in sufficient enough detail!

It is amazing how the people involved seemed to know LCM's very heart, thinking, motives, ego, pride,

concerning all aspects of this AOS project. They were no fools, including you.

By the way, I had to chuckle at your mention of "Gunnysack". Ha! Ha! I get a kick out of stuff like that

here at GreaseSpot, like "Loy-Boy" and "PLAF", etc. How silly it all seems now, looking back.

Thanks for the heart - and especially the "levity"!

Spec

[cheranne]

Lil Abner Gomer Pyle wanna be Travolta!

[Watered Garden]

I think the dancing chief devil girl was supposed to be "seed of the serpent" in AOS, whatever that was supposed to be - someone who has confessed Satan as their lord I seem to recall.

I wonder if he's thought recently about trying out for Dancing with the Stars? It would be truly hilarious to watch until the British guy opened his mouth and spoke forth the truth.

WG

[WordWolf]

I think the dancing chief devil girl was supposed to be "seed of the serpent" in AOS, whatever that was supposed to be - someone who has confessed Satan as their lord I seem to recall.

That was what the narration said-it was pretty clear, and gave the twi

doctrine on that-complete with the permanent evil connection.

(The narration's explanation, BTW, was the weakest one I ever heard

in twi.)

I wonder if he's thought recently about trying out for Dancing with the Stars? It would be truly hilarious to watch until the British guy opened his mouth and spoke forth the truth.

WG

"Dancing With the Stars" would imply he was ever a star.

"So You Think You Can Dance?" is more his speed.

[WordWolf]

Wow Wordwolf!

What you showed was so right-on! I believe this topic is now covered in sufficient enough detail!

Between the various threads, yes. I didn't quote every interesting post,

so I do recommend reading the original threads.

(Just follow the arrows back to the threads.)

It is amazing how the people involved seemed to know LCM's very heart, thinking, motives, ego, pride,

concerning all aspects of this AOS project. They were no fools, including you.

In fairness, the other people were the ones who were insiders at the time,

had gotten to know lcm, and could speak on the day-to-day stuff.

My analysis is after-the-fact. I do more in terms of COLLECTING THEIR INFORMATION

and connecting the dots after they report in, than I do reporting what I saw.

I wasn't in long enough for many insider experiences.

(Although I do remember AOS fairly well.)

Back then, I was young and foolish, and didn't think lcm was on a

total ego trip in AOS. (I DID think the production made a number of

mistakes in practice- mainly in the arbitrary elevation of the minister,

and the mismatching forces, leaving out angels and putting us vs devils

instead of vs humans serving the devil-those were reserved for the minister

who was improperly elevated. Little did I know that was only the tip of the

iceberg.)

By the way, I had to chuckle at your mention of "Gunnysack". Ha! Ha! I get a kick out of stuff like that

here at GreaseSpot, like "Loy-Boy" and "PLAF", etc. How silly it all seems now, looking back.

Thanks for the heart - and especially the "levity"!

Spec

"Gunnysack" was something ckeer said-I just quoted the post.

I don't think I have the knack of really making this as funny as it can be.

(Then again, I DID do threads on the twi Drinking Game and twi Mad Libs,

which probably earn me "honorable mention.")

[Mark Clarke]

In case you haven't seen this... (or if you have, it's appropos and still good for a laugh) -

[TheHighWay]

"Dancing With the Stars" would imply he was ever a star.

"So You Think You Can Dance?" is more his speed.

Not to derail but have you ever watched this show?? Don't let the name fool you. The folks who compete on "So You Think You Can Dance" are very talented and do routines every week that are AMAZING. Most of the competitors are already trained dancers, they are just looking for their break to move up to professional level. To compare it to "Dancing with the Stars" is like comparing Baryshnikov to Athletes of the Spirit.

((stepping down off my soapbox now))

[Rejoice]

'Mark Clarke' In case you haven't seen this... (or if you have, it's appropos and still good for a laugh) -

My goodness---watching that production, he looks more like a Dying Swan in lead-filled shoes rather than a spiritual athelete! :blink: :wacko:

Edited November 24, 2008 by Rejoice

[penworks]

Just to chime in a little as one who was at HQ during the time prior to and during the first few productions, and I was on the Research Team then to boot. LCM never, I repeat never, checked any of his so-called "research" he said went into that production with anyone I know of on the team at that time, including Walter Cummins, the head of the Research Department. Not that it would've made much difference, IMO. Anyhow, we were on "the other side of the hall" literally and figuratively. Whew. Some of us wanted no part of what he was doing. Some of us did more than roll our eyes about it. It was VERY strange being there at that time...

[Mark Clarke]

I remember hearing that even VPW disapproved of the production. Was that just in POP or did anybody else hear of it from other sources?

[Ham]

Yeah.. vic put the "chill" on the seed of the serpent stuff.

loy said something like "he only had to tell me ONCE.."

at least from what I remember.

what's interesting in this thread.. here we have someone kinda new to the forums.. and they find a remarkable similarity between "god breathed truth" and "commercial endeavor"..

maybe it would be nice to see the connection rediscovered..

we have a whole different "mix" of folks.. like Penworks around..

maybe a few others..

I find it interesting that we have a few "smart folks" if you will accept the role..

:)

on the "other side of the aisle"..

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

Somewhere I read that Wierwille only taught Spiritual atheletes once on Ephesians 6, instead of military terminology and Craig took off and ran with it. It is said VPW later rejected that interpretation and reverted back to military usage, but Craig wouldn't let go of the Olympic-atheletic version(other scriptures do use things like running the course like a marathon, but it was inappropiate for Ephesians).

[WordWolf]

Not to derail but have you ever watched this show?? Don't let the name fool you. The folks who compete on "So You Think You Can Dance" are very talented and do routines every week that are AMAZING. Most of the competitors are already trained dancers, they are just looking for their break to move up to professional level. To compare it to "Dancing with the Stars" is like comparing Baryshnikov to Athletes of the Spirit.

((stepping down off my soapbox now))

I was thinking of the open tryouts. I watch those for the schadenfreude.

The vast majority of the people they have to reject have no idea they can't dance.

So, someone stumbling around the stage "like a ruptured chimpanzee"

would fit in the tryouts.

I wasn't thinking of anyone who moves on in the show past the cattle-call.

Just to chime in a little as one who was at HQ during the time prior to and during the first few productions, and I was on the Research Team then to boot. LCM never, I repeat never, checked any of his so-called "research" he said went into that production with anyone I know of on the team at that time, including Walter Cummins, the head of the Research Department. Not that it would've made much difference, IMO. Anyhow, we were on "the other side of the hall" literally and figuratively. Whew. Some of us wanted no part of what he was doing. Some of us did more than roll our eyes about it. It was VERY strange being there at that time...

That's interesting, considering he did a 2-part taped teaching at one point to try to

insert the athletic terminology into Ephesians 6.

[WordWolf]

Somewhere I read that Wierwille only taught Spiritual atheletes once on Ephesians 6, instead of military terminology and Craig took off and ran with it. It is said VPW later rejected that interpretation and reverted back to military usage, but Craig wouldn't let go of the Olympic-atheletic version(other scriptures do use things like running the course like a marathon, but it was inappropiate for Ephesians).

As we've seen here, vpw liked to make a big deal over military personnel in twi,

suggest he actually knew something about the military (and supposedly based

the corps on the military, despite there being little resemblance between

the two), and so on. If vpw really had wanted to make a major production,

it would probably have used a military model.

As we've also seen, the education lcm received was as a football player,

a student of Psychology (who apparently retained little, since he described

someone having some sort of psychiatric episode as "gooney-bird"),

and whatever he picked up in twi.

lcm's "contributions" kept involving athletics and exercise.

(His photo in "the way:living in love" shows him leading students on a run...)

lcm also insisted on inserting himself everywhere (including High Country

Caravan.) Although there is educational television, the only real time

he encouraged TV viewing on-grounds was during the Olympics.

(Someone told me he had a setup in place to display the games during

one Olympics.)

Knowing all this, it's obvious lcm would insert athletics into the Bible,

and himself as the center of attention when he did that.

It's just what he did.

[Mark Sanguinetti]

Here is something from Karl Kahler's book.

http://www.ex-way.com/excerpts/chapter12.htm

[TheHighWay]

I've posted this elsewhere but it bears repeating:

I was in-rez at Emporia while they were putting AOS together. Craig visited several times and each time he would tell us how the production was going.... about the dance steps, the costuming, the set, etc. And I distinctly remember thinking to myself that it sounded like he was making it up as he went along. Having been in theater productions through high school and college myself, it didn't make sense to me that "god was still showing him" new stuff almost all the way up to opening night!!

Of course, I quickly tried to shut down those thoughts because they were "devilish" you know.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Just to chime in a little as one who was at HQ during the time prior to and during the first few productions, and I was on the Research Team then to boot. LCM never, I repeat never, checked any of his so-called "research" he said went into that production with anyone I know of on the team at that time, including Walter Cummins, the head of the Research Department. Not that it would've made much difference, IMO. Anyhow, we were on "the other side of the hall" literally and figuratively. Whew. Some of us wanted no part of what he was doing. Some of us did more than roll our eyes about it. It was VERY strange being there at that time...

I suspect by the time lcm was "mantled", he had become totally delusional. Every thought that jumped into his okie skull, he thought was divinely inspired...who needs a research department when you're the mog!

In hindsight, it seems obvious that Martindale was a dull bulb who lost his mind...Vic really should have known better than to pick this guy...really.