I think mark and avoid has always been a tool in their crib, despite uncle howie's mouthing about how "yall's welcome at da way.."
and for a long time that was the system.. til the loyster passed out that little paper with "scriptures to adhere to".. then it was "official".
I understand they now claim it never happened.. all I can say is, try a little stroll on way property as a "former follower" who just wants to see what they've done with the dump.. and see how non-mark and avoid they are..
or just "show up" to a sns..
If one could get in, that would suggest at least a drastic change in unwritten policy..
I can't tell you when it started but the practice was already in evidence in 1972 when I first took PLAF (The Wonder Class). Granted, though, it was not called "Mark and Avoid" and it was much more subtle. The buzz-word of the day was "tripped out". At classes and branch meetings we were supposed to keep our "babes" away from the "trip-outs". If they started to develop a friendship with a "trip-out", we were supposed to jump in and keep them preoccupied with helping string chairs, etc. so they wouldn't have time for the other person. And, we poured on the "unequaled yoke" stuff pretty heavy so it would make them feel guilty about enjoying the company of unbelievers. Speaking on a personal level, there was a huge wedge that was deliberately driven between me and my "old-man" friends and family. Unfortunately, rather than desert my family, I opted to drag them into TWI. I have since apologized. In addition, at the direction of my local leaders and undershepherders, I deliberately distanced myself from a long time friend who had serious mental health problems and always looked to me for support. He took his own life soon after. This kind of action was not just "verbal tradition" or a local practice. It was spelled out rather clearly in a communique that originated in New Knothead, Ohio. It was taught, in turn, at twig leader meetings. Those meetings were where official information and proclamations were supposed to be disseminated. In addition, it was very clearly and vehemently promoted in "Dealing With The Adversary", though the exact terminology was not yet in use as far as I recall.
However, vpw himself dismissed a later corps without warning, and kicked them all
out. Then he said they could re-enter, if they declared their loyalty to him.
(It's in lcm's book, 'vp and me'.)
A very nearly exact scenario was played out one morning at 2 or 3am in Fellow Laborers of Ohio (FLO).
That would have been in about 1976 or 1977.
This stuff was all choreographed and staged.
They played it out like it was based on some Earth shaking revelation when in reality it was a totally contrived sham designed to force us into submission.
WW, yes, I wondered about the zero Corps. Not much known about them. Or what became of them after they left.
Ham - no doubt any Spotter wouldn't be welcome at the Way - though clearly some returnees are. As I live so far away, opportunities for strolling round the grounds again are somewhat less likely than my opportunities for visiting Antarctica.
Waysider - where would you meet the "tripped out" believers? You make it sound as if they were in the vicinity - at your local meeting, for example - which wouldn't make them completely M&A'd. The bit about avoiding your "old man" friends is a different policy. (I'm sorry to hear about your friend with MH problems. You might have been able to offer genuine help, if only just a listening ear.)
The earlier practices don't seem to have been quite so vicious, but perhaps I am mistaken.
At a guess, after PoP, LCM upped it to another level in his attempt to regain control and impose his will. Wouldn't want anybody going after the leaders (in particular) who had chosen not to give the pledge of allegiance to him. Some of those people went and hung out with CGeer. I remember some pretty nasty things being said about "cop outs" in the late 80s.
I think it ratchetted to another level again in the early to mid-90s, when the pressure from the lawsuits was falling upon him more, though we didn't know about it at the time. (This bit, I know from personal experience, was spite and viciousness unadulterated.)
Does that sound about right?
No doubt LCM as WC2 would have heard one way or another about the zero Corps and it would have been drummed into him how bad they were. It was his elder Corps, after all, and he wouldn't want to follow their example.
Waysider - where would you meet the "tripped out" believers? You make it sound as if they were in the vicinity - at your local meeting, for example - which wouldn't make them completely M&A'd. The bit about avoiding your "old man" friends is a different policy. (I'm sorry to hear about your friend with MH problems. You might have been able to offer genuine help, if only just a listening ear.)
The earlier practices don't seem to have been quite so vicious, but perhaps I am mistaken.
Twinky
Yes, they were in our area. We had an open branch meeting every Sunday evening. Attendance was open to anyone.Usually, about 50 to 75 people would show up. A lot of people knew each other from pre-Way days. (high school chums and such) So, sometimes "trip-outs" would come to meetings to reconnect with old friends rather than to "hear The Word". We made a very deliberate effort to protect our newbies from them as they were prone to take the post teaching fellowship conversations into subjects we deemed inappropriate. We told our newbies it was o.k. to associate with them if, and only "if", in doing so, they were actively focusing on bringing them back into the fold. Otherwise, it was not cool to simply "hang out" with them because they would drag you down instead of you pulling them up.
I also remember a time (1973 or 1974) when there was a huge push to contact any and all grads who had tripped out and recruit them back into the fold. The goal was to show their names on class attendance sheets.. (I think this may have been some kind of qualifying test for branch leaders who were WC candidates.) In this instance, the branch leaders met with their twig leaders at the weekly twig leader meeting and handed out printed lists of all the people in the area who were PLAF grads but tripped out. This list apparently came from International HQ or, at the very least, Limb HQ. Then, at the monthly branch leaders meeting, the branch leaders were called upon to show how they had increased their active numbers. In reality, it was a convoluted form of artificially inflating sales numbers.
It was nowhere near as vicious as M&A. It does illustrate, however, that the organization (at its core level) was driven by sales goals, not a genuine desire to help people, even back in "the good old days".
It's such cheap drama, that ridiculous 'mark and avoid' policy. Mark and avoid fellow Christians, fellow Way grads, brothers and sisters? Why? Because someone, somewhere had some paranoid idea that a brother or sister had made a mistake that would somehow cause irreparable damage to the ministry? What happened in the minds of these twi leaders that would uproot their belief in the power of the love of God, and living in God's great grace? Why retrench and come up with some cheap, cheesy, Hollywood B-movie, mark and avoid policy? What on earth were they so obviously afraid of?
The mark and avoid policy was an inadvertent admission to a failure of leadership, a revealing window into the rot and corruption hiding at the top. That policy started in earnest after I left The Way. Looking at it now, from afar, is like seeing a leader wear a hat that says "Hi, I'm Full of Fear. Follow Me."
What gets me is that they based in on a Bible verse that they completely misread!
Rom. 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Notice it doesn't say, "Mark them which disagree with you" or "Mark them which don't bow to your leadership." It's talking about "them which cause divisions." Who in these cases is causing the division - the people who ask questions, or the organization that kicks them out for doing so, badmouths them afterward, and forbids any other followers from contacting them? I like to say we marked and avoided THEM!
Shunning---or M&A is practiced in many extreme or radical groups--it is based in part on this. . .
It just took awhile for TWI to sink their teeth into it!!
I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." 1 Cor 5-9
Ironically the ones doing the shunning are the ones acting immorally.
Like Twinky said. . . JW's also practice this as well as other cults. . .
Twinky... My recollection from my limited time and remember I was out west we didn't have teh same level of contact with head quarters as those in the east.. but in 79 after I finished PFAL i went to a way gathering at Camp Gunnison I think it was in July any way VPW was heavily promoting seperating from your family if they were not in the ministry... telling everyone there to avoid their family and seperate from them and Shun them.(I don't ythink he called it shunning but it was what he taught about that day)
Also I know a month later when I went to ROA and was on the Maintenance crew I heard about the 0 corps... but there were also lots of rumors flying that year(among the corps there) about who was being booted out and to not talk to them I don't remember it being called Mark and Avoid at that point but I was pretty much wrapped up in my own issues with going WOW.
And I do know that at ROA 81 or 82 Sorry My MEmory is a bit foggy on the exact one but I believe it was 82 IT was called Mark and Avoid as they were applying it to a Corp man and his wife who left supposedly because he was an alcoholic. (The IRony about this does not escape me either now..)
I do know that by 82 out west the practice was starting to trickle down to the Twig level... We had more Corps then as all of the 9the Corps was out on the field and 8th so perhaps by din't of them bringing it out with them it just made itself evident at twigs.
always the two scriptures mentioned above were used in conjunction with teh implement of it.
I also have no doubt that when we left in early 83 (Husband and I) we were labeled Mark and Avoid. Although I am not sure what reason they gave fore it but I am sure it was interesting.
Twinky... My recollection from my limited time and remember I was out west we didn't have teh same level of contact with head quarters as those in the east.. but in 79 after I finished PFAL i went to a way gathering at Camp Gunnison I think it was in July any way VPW was heavily promoting seperating from your family if they were not in the ministry... telling everyone there to avoid their family and seperate from them and Shun them.(I don't ythink he called it shunning but it was what he taught about that day)
Also I know a month later when I went to ROA and was on the Maintenance crew I heard about the 0 corps... but there were also lots of rumors flying that year(among the corps there) about who was being booted out and to not talk to them I don't remember it being called Mark and Avoid at that point but I was pretty much wrapped up in my own issues with going WOW.
Yeeh..............MORE and MORE CORPS were heading out on the field and did NOT want to be micro-managed. Wierwille had no answer for these "defections".......except to strong-arm them with verbal abuse and twisted doctrine....ie "tripped-out, copped-out, possessed, or mark-and-avoid."
Really....imo, it was bound to take this direction as wierwille's "corps-training" was evolving into a cult hierarchy where wierwille was fast approaching his end of days. The corps did NOT sign up for a lifetime to wierwille-mandated servitude..!!!
When those three 8th corps wrote a research paper in 1978 contrary to wierwille's "research".......the hornet's nest was stirred and the true colors of wierwille-control SURFACED on a larger scale than the days of H3fn3r and D00p.
When those three 8th corps wrote a research paper in 1978 contrary to wierwille's "research".......the hornet's nest was stirred and the true colors of wierwille-control SURFACED on a larger scale than the days of H3fn3r and D00p.
IT wasn't even just them I mean they weren't the only ones speaking out with doctrine that was counter to Weirwille that 79 ROA was rife with talk among the Corps there about who believed what and some very very different studies... One was about Christ having sex with Mary and another person was talking about Christ having kids... I didn't pay too close of attention at the time but I know there was a lot of argument about some of the stuff.. IT is interesting to me that I didn't hear the same stuff in 80 but that could be becasue I was too busy as I had just finished my WOW year. They had us going from meeting to meeting for ROA that year.
M&A as a term didn't get used when I was involved 1970-1987, but the practice sure was in place. After I left, I first heard the term in 1998 from someone who would know about it.
***************
“I say that religion isn’t about believing things. It’s ethical alchemy. It’s about behaving in a way that changes you, that gives you intimations of holiness and sacredness.” Karen Armstrong, authority on comparative religions
When those three 8th corps wrote a research paper in 1978 contrary to wierwille's "research".......the hornet's nest was stirred and the true colors of wierwille-control SURFACED on a larger scale than the days of H3fn3r and D00p.
Is there a way to know more about that paper? just from a curious former 8th corps.
IT wasn't even just them I mean they weren't the only ones speaking out with doctrine that was counter to Weirwille that 79 ROA was rife with talk among the Corps there about who believed what and some very very different studies...
Sorry, lefty......I didn't mean to imply that this "8th corps research paper" was the thrust and backbone of wierwille's attempts to CIRCLE THE WAGONS.
Heck, there was LOTS going on........Deprogrammiing episodes were on the rise, more graduating corps were going back to college & careers, more pregnancies and corps kids, five campuses to oversee, pfal '77 was not good enough to replace old class, jim jones and all those dead bodies, etc. etc.
Is there a way to know more about that paper? just from a curious former 8th corps.
Lifted Up......sorry, I don't remember. Although I did sit in the 1978 Adv Class Branch Leaders Mtg where wierwille was still pi$$ed and let all of us know it. What an eye-opener for a young punk like me who thought this bible stuff was about Jesus and love.
I don't want this to be a discussion about this abusive practice, of which there are many other threads. Just wondering when it started in TWI.
Many thanks for the replies on this. Seems pretty clear it was around from the beginning, from when the WC was first established anyway. Pretty much everyone has heard about the Zero Corps, of which nothing since has ever been heard.
But someone has said or at least hinted that it might be a direct result of VPW himself having been chucked out of his original church (ie, marked and avoided himself). Looks like he spent the rest of his "ministry" enjoying getting even (trying to think like a psychopath here).
Another foundational nugget that he "stole" from some other church, along with PFAL and RHST!
I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." 1 Cor 5-9
Not to associate with sexually immoral people...uh, that would be pervy uncle vic wouldn't it? We should have booted him out. With such a man do not even eat...we sat at his feet thinking he was something good.
Is there a way to know more about that paper? just from a curious former 8th corps.
From vpw's 6 pg. letter to the Corps dated October 20, 1978: "They got seriously involved and "hooked" into a subject known as eschatology, which is far too advanced for their abilities in research at this time."
"Eschatology is a Christian term that means the study of the end of history from a religious perspective. Probably more obscure theological text has been written on this topic than on any other belief in Christendom. The Bible contains many prophecies about the future. The Christian Scriptures (New Testament) in particular talks extensively about the return of Jesus Christ to this earth. This is usually called his "second coming," or "parousia." The Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 24, is devoted to this topic, as is much of the book of Revelation, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18."
IMO, although vpw went ahead and later invited some of us to be on the team, the clamp down from this episode had lasting effects...
Probably ticked him off royally that they were studying a subject about which he, himself, knew little and had very few answers.
My memory of it was that he actually pretty much dismissed any research on it at least to twiggies.... and I think by squelching their studies he created an atmosphere of curiosity about what else was forbidden ...
you know there is nothing so inticing as being told something is forbidden fruit...
I could be wrong but I think it had something to do with supporting the trinity position...
From pen works earlier post
From vpw's 6 pg. letter to the Corps dated October 20, 1978: "They got seriously involved and "hooked" into a subject known as eschatology, which is far too advanced for their abilities in research at this time."
That said again at that time there were a lot of different ideas being discussed from that particular corps group.. some being did Jesus have children with Mary Magdelin and of course the Trinity stuff... and more.
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Ham
I think mark and avoid has always been a tool in their crib, despite uncle howie's mouthing about how "yall's welcome at da way.."
and for a long time that was the system.. til the loyster passed out that little paper with "scriptures to adhere to".. then it was "official".
I understand they now claim it never happened.. all I can say is, try a little stroll on way property as a "former follower" who just wants to see what they've done with the dump.. and see how non-mark and avoid they are..
or just "show up" to a sns..
If one could get in, that would suggest at least a drastic change in unwritten policy..
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waysider
I can't tell you when it started but the practice was already in evidence in 1972 when I first took PLAF (The Wonder Class). Granted, though, it was not called "Mark and Avoid" and it was much more subtle. The buzz-word of the day was "tripped out". At classes and branch meetings we were supposed to keep our "babes" away from the "trip-outs". If they started to develop a friendship with a "trip-out", we were supposed to jump in and keep them preoccupied with helping string chairs, etc. so they wouldn't have time for the other person. And, we poured on the "unequaled yoke" stuff pretty heavy so it would make them feel guilty about enjoying the company of unbelievers. Speaking on a personal level, there was a huge wedge that was deliberately driven between me and my "old-man" friends and family. Unfortunately, rather than desert my family, I opted to drag them into TWI. I have since apologized. In addition, at the direction of my local leaders and undershepherders, I deliberately distanced myself from a long time friend who had serious mental health problems and always looked to me for support. He took his own life soon after. This kind of action was not just "verbal tradition" or a local practice. It was spelled out rather clearly in a communique that originated in New Knothead, Ohio. It was taught, in turn, at twig leader meetings. Those meetings were where official information and proclamations were supposed to be disseminated. In addition, it was very clearly and vehemently promoted in "Dealing With The Adversary", though the exact terminology was not yet in use as far as I recall.
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WordWolf
I'm confident that the concept was in effect by the "zero corps", when vpw dismissed
all the applicants. Our information about why they were dismissed after a few weeks
of program is completely absent, so specifics are speculation.
However, vpw himself dismissed a later corps without warning, and kicked them all
out. Then he said they could re-enter, if they declared their loyalty to him.
(It's in lcm's book, 'vp and me'.)
vpw never hesitated to kick anyone out if they didn't do whatever he wanted.
He also kicked out a guy from the corps for not taking notes when he talked-
as if that was a rule anyplace.
(lcm himself, again, documented it in "vp and me.")
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=8019
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/waydal.../vp-and-me.html
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waysider
A very nearly exact scenario was played out one morning at 2 or 3am in Fellow Laborers of Ohio (FLO).
That would have been in about 1976 or 1977.
This stuff was all choreographed and staged.
They played it out like it was based on some Earth shaking revelation when in reality it was a totally contrived sham designed to force us into submission.
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RumRunner
Excellent name - gotta remember that one - thanks
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Twinky
Thanks for the replies on this.
WW, yes, I wondered about the zero Corps. Not much known about them. Or what became of them after they left.
Ham - no doubt any Spotter wouldn't be welcome at the Way - though clearly some returnees are. As I live so far away, opportunities for strolling round the grounds again are somewhat less likely than my opportunities for visiting Antarctica.
Waysider - where would you meet the "tripped out" believers? You make it sound as if they were in the vicinity - at your local meeting, for example - which wouldn't make them completely M&A'd. The bit about avoiding your "old man" friends is a different policy. (I'm sorry to hear about your friend with MH problems. You might have been able to offer genuine help, if only just a listening ear.)
The earlier practices don't seem to have been quite so vicious, but perhaps I am mistaken.
At a guess, after PoP, LCM upped it to another level in his attempt to regain control and impose his will. Wouldn't want anybody going after the leaders (in particular) who had chosen not to give the pledge of allegiance to him. Some of those people went and hung out with CGeer. I remember some pretty nasty things being said about "cop outs" in the late 80s.
I think it ratchetted to another level again in the early to mid-90s, when the pressure from the lawsuits was falling upon him more, though we didn't know about it at the time. (This bit, I know from personal experience, was spite and viciousness unadulterated.)
Does that sound about right?
No doubt LCM as WC2 would have heard one way or another about the zero Corps and it would have been drummed into him how bad they were. It was his elder Corps, after all, and he wouldn't want to follow their example.
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waysider
Twinky
Yes, they were in our area. We had an open branch meeting every Sunday evening. Attendance was open to anyone.Usually, about 50 to 75 people would show up. A lot of people knew each other from pre-Way days. (high school chums and such) So, sometimes "trip-outs" would come to meetings to reconnect with old friends rather than to "hear The Word". We made a very deliberate effort to protect our newbies from them as they were prone to take the post teaching fellowship conversations into subjects we deemed inappropriate. We told our newbies it was o.k. to associate with them if, and only "if", in doing so, they were actively focusing on bringing them back into the fold. Otherwise, it was not cool to simply "hang out" with them because they would drag you down instead of you pulling them up.
I also remember a time (1973 or 1974) when there was a huge push to contact any and all grads who had tripped out and recruit them back into the fold. The goal was to show their names on class attendance sheets.. (I think this may have been some kind of qualifying test for branch leaders who were WC candidates.) In this instance, the branch leaders met with their twig leaders at the weekly twig leader meeting and handed out printed lists of all the people in the area who were PLAF grads but tripped out. This list apparently came from International HQ or, at the very least, Limb HQ. Then, at the monthly branch leaders meeting, the branch leaders were called upon to show how they had increased their active numbers. In reality, it was a convoluted form of artificially inflating sales numbers.
It was nowhere near as vicious as M&A. It does illustrate, however, that the organization (at its core level) was driven by sales goals, not a genuine desire to help people, even back in "the good old days".
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OperaBuff
It's such cheap drama, that ridiculous 'mark and avoid' policy. Mark and avoid fellow Christians, fellow Way grads, brothers and sisters? Why? Because someone, somewhere had some paranoid idea that a brother or sister had made a mistake that would somehow cause irreparable damage to the ministry? What happened in the minds of these twi leaders that would uproot their belief in the power of the love of God, and living in God's great grace? Why retrench and come up with some cheap, cheesy, Hollywood B-movie, mark and avoid policy? What on earth were they so obviously afraid of?
The mark and avoid policy was an inadvertent admission to a failure of leadership, a revealing window into the rot and corruption hiding at the top. That policy started in earnest after I left The Way. Looking at it now, from afar, is like seeing a leader wear a hat that says "Hi, I'm Full of Fear. Follow Me."
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Mark Clarke
What gets me is that they based in on a Bible verse that they completely misread!
Rom. 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Notice it doesn't say, "Mark them which disagree with you" or "Mark them which don't bow to your leadership." It's talking about "them which cause divisions." Who in these cases is causing the division - the people who ask questions, or the organization that kicks them out for doing so, badmouths them afterward, and forbids any other followers from contacting them? I like to say we marked and avoided THEM!
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geisha779
Shunning---or M&A is practiced in many extreme or radical groups--it is based in part on this. . .
It just took awhile for TWI to sink their teeth into it!!
I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." 1 Cor 5-9
Ironically the ones doing the shunning are the ones acting immorally.
Like Twinky said. . . JW's also practice this as well as other cults. . .
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/s50.html
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leafytwiglet
Twinky... My recollection from my limited time and remember I was out west we didn't have teh same level of contact with head quarters as those in the east.. but in 79 after I finished PFAL i went to a way gathering at Camp Gunnison I think it was in July any way VPW was heavily promoting seperating from your family if they were not in the ministry... telling everyone there to avoid their family and seperate from them and Shun them.(I don't ythink he called it shunning but it was what he taught about that day)
Also I know a month later when I went to ROA and was on the Maintenance crew I heard about the 0 corps... but there were also lots of rumors flying that year(among the corps there) about who was being booted out and to not talk to them I don't remember it being called Mark and Avoid at that point but I was pretty much wrapped up in my own issues with going WOW.
And I do know that at ROA 81 or 82 Sorry My MEmory is a bit foggy on the exact one but I believe it was 82 IT was called Mark and Avoid as they were applying it to a Corp man and his wife who left supposedly because he was an alcoholic. (The IRony about this does not escape me either now..)
I do know that by 82 out west the practice was starting to trickle down to the Twig level... We had more Corps then as all of the 9the Corps was out on the field and 8th so perhaps by din't of them bringing it out with them it just made itself evident at twigs.
always the two scriptures mentioned above were used in conjunction with teh implement of it.
I also have no doubt that when we left in early 83 (Husband and I) we were labeled Mark and Avoid. Although I am not sure what reason they gave fore it but I am sure it was interesting.
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skyrider
Yeeh..............MORE and MORE CORPS were heading out on the field and did NOT want to be micro-managed. Wierwille had no answer for these "defections".......except to strong-arm them with verbal abuse and twisted doctrine....ie "tripped-out, copped-out, possessed, or mark-and-avoid."
Really....imo, it was bound to take this direction as wierwille's "corps-training" was evolving into a cult hierarchy where wierwille was fast approaching his end of days. The corps did NOT sign up for a lifetime to wierwille-mandated servitude..!!!
When those three 8th corps wrote a research paper in 1978 contrary to wierwille's "research".......the hornet's nest was stirred and the true colors of wierwille-control SURFACED on a larger scale than the days of H3fn3r and D00p.
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leafytwiglet
IT wasn't even just them I mean they weren't the only ones speaking out with doctrine that was counter to Weirwille that 79 ROA was rife with talk among the Corps there about who believed what and some very very different studies... One was about Christ having sex with Mary and another person was talking about Christ having kids... I didn't pay too close of attention at the time but I know there was a lot of argument about some of the stuff.. IT is interesting to me that I didn't hear the same stuff in 80 but that could be becasue I was too busy as I had just finished my WOW year. They had us going from meeting to meeting for ROA that year.
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penworks
M&A as a term didn't get used when I was involved 1970-1987, but the practice sure was in place. After I left, I first heard the term in 1998 from someone who would know about it.
***************
“I say that religion isn’t about believing things. It’s ethical alchemy. It’s about behaving in a way that changes you, that gives you intimations of holiness and sacredness.” Karen Armstrong, authority on comparative religions
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Lifted Up
Is there a way to know more about that paper? just from a curious former 8th corps.
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skyrider
Sorry, lefty......I didn't mean to imply that this "8th corps research paper" was the thrust and backbone of wierwille's attempts to CIRCLE THE WAGONS.
Heck, there was LOTS going on........Deprogrammiing episodes were on the rise, more graduating corps were going back to college & careers, more pregnancies and corps kids, five campuses to oversee, pfal '77 was not good enough to replace old class, jim jones and all those dead bodies, etc. etc.
Lifted Up......sorry, I don't remember. Although I did sit in the 1978 Adv Class Branch Leaders Mtg where wierwille was still pi$$ed and let all of us know it. What an eye-opener for a young punk like me who thought this bible stuff was about Jesus and love.
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Lifted Up
Really??? Now how would I have known that???
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Twinky
Many thanks for the replies on this. Seems pretty clear it was around from the beginning, from when the WC was first established anyway. Pretty much everyone has heard about the Zero Corps, of which nothing since has ever been heard.
But someone has said or at least hinted that it might be a direct result of VPW himself having been chucked out of his original church (ie, marked and avoided himself). Looks like he spent the rest of his "ministry" enjoying getting even (trying to think like a psychopath here).
Another foundational nugget that he "stole" from some other church, along with PFAL and RHST!
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now I see
Not to associate with sexually immoral people...uh, that would be pervy uncle vic wouldn't it? We should have booted him out. With such a man do not even eat...we sat at his feet thinking he was something good.
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penworks
From vpw's 6 pg. letter to the Corps dated October 20, 1978: "They got seriously involved and "hooked" into a subject known as eschatology, which is far too advanced for their abilities in research at this time."
fyi - For those interested, here's some info from http://www.religioustolerance.org/millenni.htm
"Eschatology is a Christian term that means the study of the end of history from a religious perspective. Probably more obscure theological text has been written on this topic than on any other belief in Christendom. The Bible contains many prophecies about the future. The Christian Scriptures (New Testament) in particular talks extensively about the return of Jesus Christ to this earth. This is usually called his "second coming," or "parousia." The Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 24, is devoted to this topic, as is much of the book of Revelation, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18."
IMO, although vpw went ahead and later invited some of us to be on the team, the clamp down from this episode had lasting effects...
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waysider
Probably ticked him off royally that they were studying a subject about which he, himself, knew little and had very few answers.
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leafytwiglet
My memory of it was that he actually pretty much dismissed any research on it at least to twiggies.... and I think by squelching their studies he created an atmosphere of curiosity about what else was forbidden ...
you know there is nothing so inticing as being told something is forbidden fruit...
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GrouchoMarxJr
I could be wrong but I think it had something to do with supporting the trinity position...
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leafytwiglet
From pen works earlier post
From vpw's 6 pg. letter to the Corps dated October 20, 1978: "They got seriously involved and "hooked" into a subject known as eschatology, which is far too advanced for their abilities in research at this time."
That said again at that time there were a lot of different ideas being discussed from that particular corps group.. some being did Jesus have children with Mary Magdelin and of course the Trinity stuff... and more.
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