the poisen was ingrained in all of us from the ordained to the new babe ,in differant levels,to a two year old three feet is deep and you can drown,to a fifteen year old it is shallow but all it has to be is over your head..what does that mean?
It means leaving the past behind,your earthly family,if it meant being kicked out on the street...sure no problem.
the way was now our family,our sisters,our brothers our mother and father figures..before i took the class the last thing on my mind was to join a biblical research and teaching "ministry" and go live with strangers and we were all going deeper and deeper into danger spiritually without even knowing it
..like count to 100 then you go to surgery and you make it to 7 and the surgery begins and you get to find your way back ,problem was the dr. was a quack and the surgery deformed your spirit life if that is what you were going for the whole born again,filled with the holy spirit
,but we had freedom of choice did we not or did we just think we did?
BF Skinner proposed something rather radical in the sixties.. that man essentially doesn't have freedom of will.. just conditioned and wired in response.. or something like that.
having "needs" such as wanting love, belonging.. it has been shown that it is mostly learned behavior formed early in childhood.
some people who lost the stability offered by belonging to a functional family like myself, both parents dead by the time I was in high school, were an easy target.
I forgot where I found this but I wanted to add it here!)
The differance between spiritual LIFE and spiritual DEATH. The Way International as most CULTS do poison the Word of God(just alter it a little and its spiritual darkness and warfare for you soul. Do you know how little the amount of CYANIDE it took to turn the "Jonestown koolaid" (flavoraid) from a refreshing drink into a deadly poison? Not a lot. Probably didn't affect the taste, even. Take the ventilation system of a skyscraper, with ionized, filtered air. Clean and pure. Introduce a TINY amount of SARIN to the air, and the people will all suddenly drop dead. Why? Because when something pure has small amounts of something DANGEROUS and DEADLY added to it, adulterating its contents, the entire substance is compromised. Would you be willing to drink a liter of spring water that had a 1/2 ounce of arsenic added? If so, do so in the lobby of the hospital, or you'll never make it in time.
I forgot where I found this but I wanted to add it here!)
The differance between spiritual LIFE and spiritual DEATH. The Way International as most CULTS do poison the Word of God(just alter it a little and its spiritual darkness and warfare for you soul. Do you know how little the amount of CYANIDE it took to turn the "Jonestown koolaid" (flavoraid) from a refreshing drink into a deadly poison? Not a lot. Probably didn't affect the taste, even. Take the ventilation system of a skyscraper, with ionized, filtered air. Clean and pure. Introduce a TINY amount of SARIN to the air, and the people will all suddenly drop dead. Why? Because when something pure has small amounts of something DANGEROUS and DEADLY added to it, adulterating its contents, the entire substance is compromised. Would you be willing to drink a liter of spring water that had a 1/2 ounce of arsenic added? If so, do so in the lobby of the hospital, or you'll never make it in time.
Everything from "Do you know" was from me discussing 'the Leaven Principle' and
'the leaven of twi.'
(I can't find the origin of the first 2 sentences.)
Home Leaving a Cult? Coping With Trace States: The Aftermath of Leaving Coping With Trace States: The Aftermath of Leaving
Trance states, derealization, dissociation, spaceyness ... What are they? What strategies can we use to cope with them?
Trance states: By trance states, we mean dissociation, depersonalization and derealization.
In the group we called it spacing out or higher/altered states of consciousness.
All humans have some propensity to have moments of dissociation. However, certain practices (meditation, chanting, learned processes of speaking in tongues, prolonged guided imagery, etc.) appear to have ingrained in many former members a reflexive response to involuntarily enter altered states of consciousness.
Even after leaving the group and ceasing its consciousness-altering practices, this habitual, learned response tends to recur under stress.
For some former members this can be distressing and affect their functioning. When this happens, it tends to impair one's concentration, attention, memory and coping skills.
Many former members coming from prolonged consciousness-altering groups find that the intensity, frequency and duration of the episodes decrease when they deliberately and consistently use the strategies outlined below.
It is important to note that when one is tired, ill, or under stress the feelings of spaceyness, dissociation, depersonalization and derealization may temporally return.
By developing the ability to immediately label these states and attempting the following strategies, one can return to consistent state of mental functioning.
DEFINITIONS from Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-III):
Dissociative Disorders: The essential feature is a sudden, temporary alteration in the normally integrative functions of consciousness, identity, or motor behavior. If the alteration occurs in consciousness, important personal events cannot be recalled.
If it occurs in identity, either the individual's customary identity is temporarily forgotten and a new identity is assumed, or the customary feeling of one's own reality is lost and replaced by a feeling of unreality. If the alteration occurs in motor behavior, there is also a concurrent disturbance in consciousness or identity.
Atypical Dissociative Disorder (300.15): Trance-like states, derealization unaccompanied by depersonalization, and those more prolonged dissociated states may occur in persons who have been subjected to periods of prolonged and intense coercive persuasion (brainwashing, thought reform, and indoctrination while captive of terrorists or cultists).
Depersonalization Disorder (300.60): The essential feature is the occurrence of one or more episodes of depersonalization that cause social or occupational impairment.
The symptom of depersonalization involves an alteration in the perception or experience of the self so that the usual sense of one's own reality is temporarily lost or changed. This is manifested by a sensation of self-estrangement or unreality, which may include the feeling that one's extremities have changed in size, or the experience of seeming to perceive oneself from a distance. In addition, the individual may feel "mechanical" or as though in a dream. Various types of sensory anesthesia and feeling of not being in complete control of one's actions, including speech, are often present.
Associated features: Derealization is frequently present. This is manifested by a strange alteration in the perception of one's surroundings so that a sense of the reality of the external world is lost. A perceived change in the size of shape of objects in the external world is common. People may be perceived as dead or mechanical.
Other common associated features include dizziness, depression, obsessive ruminations, anxiety, fear of going insane, and disturbance in the subjective sense of time. There is often the feeling that recall is difficult or slow.
EX-MEMBERS' COPING STRATEGIES
Maintain a routine.
Make change slowly: physical, emotional, nutritional, geographical, etc.
Monitor health, including nutrition, medical checkups. Avoid drugs and alcohol.
Daily exercise reduces dissociation (spaceyness, anxiety and insomnia).
Avoid sensory overload. Avoid crowds or large spaces without boundaries (shopping malls, video arcades, etc.).
Drive consciously without music.
Reality orientation:
Establish time and place landmarks such as calendars and clocks.
Make lists of activities in advance. Update lists daily or weekly. Difficult tasks and large projects should be kept on separate lists.
Before going on errands, review list of planned activities, purchases and projects. Mark items off as you complete them.
Keep updated on current news. News shows (CNN, Headline News talk radio) are helpful because they repeat, especially if you have memory/concentration difficulties.
Reading:
Try to read one complete news article daily to increase comprehension.
Develop reading "stamina" with the aid of a timer. Increasing reading periods progressively.
Sleep interruptions:
Leave TALK radio/television, news programs (not music) on all night. (Preferably not Rush, though.)
Don't push youself. Dissociation is an acquired habit, so it will take time break. [ Back ]
Home Leaving a Cult? Coping With Trace States: The Aftermath of Leaving Coping With Trace States: The Aftermath of Leaving
Trance states, derealization, dissociation, spaceyness ... What are they? What strategies can we use to cope with them?
Trance states: By trance states, we mean dissociation, depersonalization and derealization. ...
Hhmmmm, ... how about Leaving a Religion? Any similar characteristics from your list applicable there too? ... No?
How about the following characteristics of one leaving a religion (and yes, Virginia, I have experienced all of these in leaving Christianity)
1) Lingering fear of being punished/struck down/judged by God at the Final Judgment/similar thoughts, which usually (for quite some time) used to pop in, out, and back in again.
2) Lingering fear of being open with still religious people about leaving God, since they will either a) try to convert you back again, b) treat you with pity/suspicion/distrust/or even downright volatility, or c) ignore you as tho' you aren't worthy to listen to.
3) Selfsame fear in opening up to your parents/family about walking away, for the reasons just mentioned.
4) Apprehension as to being found out in your work area/school/public life/etc. Again, for the same reason. ... Oh, and don't even think about running for political office, unless you live in an area where religious influence in your district is minimal, and maybe not even then. (This I have not experienced myself, but have talked with those who have. <_< )
Before anybody here thinks that this is derailing this thread, stop and compare the two concepts for a minute, will you?
Concept #1: The effects upon a person when they leave a 'cult', and
Concept #2: The effects upon a person when they leave religion (ie., the Judaeo-Christian one in this instance, since that viewpoint is the most predominant.)
Although they might not be identical in every way, consider the psychological effects in each approach. Consider what the individual goes through mentally, what they go through socially, the major changes they go through in such a transition; the leaving, the walking away from something that they used to believe in and invest pert near their entire lives in. And now that they broke free (in both comparisons) and are having nothing more to do with their respective belief systems (and no matter what the deceptive, browbeating, manipulative tactics were/are being used in _both_ to varying respective degrees, they (both 'cult' and religion) are belief systems), ... those people who walk away go through one helluva psychological trauma of sorts.
See, this is what I find so hilarious when people speak of 'cults' and religions, as tho they are two totally distinctive animals. ... Uummmm, they aren't. Not really. (As a matter of fact, the term 'cult' used in the dictionary used to have a neutral meaning that communicated simply 'a group of followers of a person, idea, or thing.' Which includes any and all religions.)
Cheranne, I just finished Morton's Tom Cruise Bio. The thing that amazed me is how exactly like twi they are. For example, Sea Orgs, Scientology's discipes who are paid $35 per week, LIVE in the Cruise's house. They are their housekeepers, do laundry, buy groceries, in effect, wait on them constantly because of Tom's celebrity status. They did that during Nicole's marriage to Tom also. Sound familiar? In addition, they each have a Scientology person assigned to them who go EVERYWHERE with them. Tom's is usually the leader of the group who is also his "best friend," and Katie has some woman who goes everywhere with her. How creepy is that?
As Oeno said, Scientology makes twi look like Sunday School, but some posters might disagree with that. People who have left the group and gone public telling what it was/it like, have been harassed, stalked, and some have even committed suicide. As I said, some may think it is closer to twi than others.
I think CONTROL and MONEY are the duo bottom lines. Tom left Nicole, e.g. moved his things out of their house after she gave an interview in which she answered a question by stating that Scientology, Roman Catholicism, and something else made up her religious beliefs. Can't have that. His spouse has to believe totally in S., according to Morton. I read his book because he claimed to have interview many, many ex-Scientologists. Also, it's creepy that Tom of course has custody of the two adopted children and is raising them completely in S. Nicole has video cam visitation with them. I suppose she decided she couldn't fight them...
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cheranne
the poisen was ingrained in all of us from the ordained to the new babe ,in differant levels,to a two year old three feet is deep and you can drown,to a fifteen year old it is shallow but all it has to be is over your head..what does that mean?
It means leaving the past behind,your earthly family,if it meant being kicked out on the street...sure no problem.
the way was now our family,our sisters,our brothers our mother and father figures..before i took the class the last thing on my mind was to join a biblical research and teaching "ministry" and go live with strangers and we were all going deeper and deeper into danger spiritually without even knowing it
..like count to 100 then you go to surgery and you make it to 7 and the surgery begins and you get to find your way back ,problem was the dr. was a quack and the surgery deformed your spirit life if that is what you were going for the whole born again,filled with the holy spirit
,but we had freedom of choice did we not or did we just think we did?
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Ham
BF Skinner proposed something rather radical in the sixties.. that man essentially doesn't have freedom of will.. just conditioned and wired in response.. or something like that.
having "needs" such as wanting love, belonging.. it has been shown that it is mostly learned behavior formed early in childhood.
some people who lost the stability offered by belonging to a functional family like myself, both parents dead by the time I was in high school, were an easy target.
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cheranne
I forgot where I found this but I wanted to add it here!)
The differance between spiritual LIFE and spiritual DEATH. The Way International as most CULTS do poison the Word of God(just alter it a little and its spiritual darkness and warfare for you soul. Do you know how little the amount of CYANIDE it took to turn the "Jonestown koolaid" (flavoraid) from a refreshing drink into a deadly poison? Not a lot. Probably didn't affect the taste, even. Take the ventilation system of a skyscraper, with ionized, filtered air. Clean and pure. Introduce a TINY amount of SARIN to the air, and the people will all suddenly drop dead. Why? Because when something pure has small amounts of something DANGEROUS and DEADLY added to it, adulterating its contents, the entire substance is compromised. Would you be willing to drink a liter of spring water that had a 1/2 ounce of arsenic added? If so, do so in the lobby of the hospital, or you'll never make it in time.
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WordWolf
Everything from "Do you know" was from me discussing 'the Leaven Principle' and
'the leaven of twi.'
(I can't find the origin of the first 2 sentences.)
and
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cheranne
Thanks :) Very profound!
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cheranne
(from Cult Awareness)
Home Leaving a Cult? Coping With Trace States: The Aftermath of Leaving Coping With Trace States: The Aftermath of Leaving
Trance states, derealization, dissociation, spaceyness ... What are they? What strategies can we use to cope with them?
Trance states: By trance states, we mean dissociation, depersonalization and derealization.
In the group we called it spacing out or higher/altered states of consciousness.
All humans have some propensity to have moments of dissociation. However, certain practices (meditation, chanting, learned processes of speaking in tongues, prolonged guided imagery, etc.) appear to have ingrained in many former members a reflexive response to involuntarily enter altered states of consciousness.
Even after leaving the group and ceasing its consciousness-altering practices, this habitual, learned response tends to recur under stress.
For some former members this can be distressing and affect their functioning. When this happens, it tends to impair one's concentration, attention, memory and coping skills.
Many former members coming from prolonged consciousness-altering groups find that the intensity, frequency and duration of the episodes decrease when they deliberately and consistently use the strategies outlined below.
It is important to note that when one is tired, ill, or under stress the feelings of spaceyness, dissociation, depersonalization and derealization may temporally return.
By developing the ability to immediately label these states and attempting the following strategies, one can return to consistent state of mental functioning.
DEFINITIONS from Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-III):
Dissociative Disorders: The essential feature is a sudden, temporary alteration in the normally integrative functions of consciousness, identity, or motor behavior. If the alteration occurs in consciousness, important personal events cannot be recalled.
If it occurs in identity, either the individual's customary identity is temporarily forgotten and a new identity is assumed, or the customary feeling of one's own reality is lost and replaced by a feeling of unreality. If the alteration occurs in motor behavior, there is also a concurrent disturbance in consciousness or identity.
Atypical Dissociative Disorder (300.15): Trance-like states, derealization unaccompanied by depersonalization, and those more prolonged dissociated states may occur in persons who have been subjected to periods of prolonged and intense coercive persuasion (brainwashing, thought reform, and indoctrination while captive of terrorists or cultists).
Depersonalization Disorder (300.60): The essential feature is the occurrence of one or more episodes of depersonalization that cause social or occupational impairment.
The symptom of depersonalization involves an alteration in the perception or experience of the self so that the usual sense of one's own reality is temporarily lost or changed. This is manifested by a sensation of self-estrangement or unreality, which may include the feeling that one's extremities have changed in size, or the experience of seeming to perceive oneself from a distance. In addition, the individual may feel "mechanical" or as though in a dream. Various types of sensory anesthesia and feeling of not being in complete control of one's actions, including speech, are often present.
Associated features: Derealization is frequently present. This is manifested by a strange alteration in the perception of one's surroundings so that a sense of the reality of the external world is lost. A perceived change in the size of shape of objects in the external world is common. People may be perceived as dead or mechanical.
Other common associated features include dizziness, depression, obsessive ruminations, anxiety, fear of going insane, and disturbance in the subjective sense of time. There is often the feeling that recall is difficult or slow.
EX-MEMBERS' COPING STRATEGIES
Maintain a routine.
Make change slowly: physical, emotional, nutritional, geographical, etc.
Monitor health, including nutrition, medical checkups. Avoid drugs and alcohol.
Daily exercise reduces dissociation (spaceyness, anxiety and insomnia).
Avoid sensory overload. Avoid crowds or large spaces without boundaries (shopping malls, video arcades, etc.).
Drive consciously without music.
Reality orientation:
Establish time and place landmarks such as calendars and clocks.
Make lists of activities in advance. Update lists daily or weekly. Difficult tasks and large projects should be kept on separate lists.
Before going on errands, review list of planned activities, purchases and projects. Mark items off as you complete them.
Keep updated on current news. News shows (CNN, Headline News talk radio) are helpful because they repeat, especially if you have memory/concentration difficulties.
Reading:
Try to read one complete news article daily to increase comprehension.
Develop reading "stamina" with the aid of a timer. Increasing reading periods progressively.
Sleep interruptions:
Leave TALK radio/television, news programs (not music) on all night. (Preferably not Rush, though.)
Don't push youself. Dissociation is an acquired habit, so it will take time break. [ Back ]
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cheranne
This is intresting too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUeThYv6z5A
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GarthP2000
Hhmmmm, ... how about Leaving a Religion? Any similar characteristics from your list applicable there too? ... No?
How about the following characteristics of one leaving a religion (and yes, Virginia, I have experienced all of these in leaving Christianity)
1) Lingering fear of being punished/struck down/judged by God at the Final Judgment/similar thoughts, which usually (for quite some time) used to pop in, out, and back in again.
2) Lingering fear of being open with still religious people about leaving God, since they will either a) try to convert you back again, b) treat you with pity/suspicion/distrust/or even downright volatility, or c) ignore you as tho' you aren't worthy to listen to.
3) Selfsame fear in opening up to your parents/family about walking away, for the reasons just mentioned.
4) Apprehension as to being found out in your work area/school/public life/etc. Again, for the same reason. ... Oh, and don't even think about running for political office, unless you live in an area where religious influence in your district is minimal, and maybe not even then. (This I have not experienced myself, but have talked with those who have. <_< )
Before anybody here thinks that this is derailing this thread, stop and compare the two concepts for a minute, will you?
Concept #1: The effects upon a person when they leave a 'cult', and
Concept #2: The effects upon a person when they leave religion (ie., the Judaeo-Christian one in this instance, since that viewpoint is the most predominant.)
Although they might not be identical in every way, consider the psychological effects in each approach. Consider what the individual goes through mentally, what they go through socially, the major changes they go through in such a transition; the leaving, the walking away from something that they used to believe in and invest pert near their entire lives in. And now that they broke free (in both comparisons) and are having nothing more to do with their respective belief systems (and no matter what the deceptive, browbeating, manipulative tactics were/are being used in _both_ to varying respective degrees, they (both 'cult' and religion) are belief systems), ... those people who walk away go through one helluva psychological trauma of sorts.
See, this is what I find so hilarious when people speak of 'cults' and religions, as tho they are two totally distinctive animals. ... Uummmm, they aren't. Not really. (As a matter of fact, the term 'cult' used in the dictionary used to have a neutral meaning that communicated simply 'a group of followers of a person, idea, or thing.' Which includes any and all religions.)
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cheranne
If your church is acting cult like you probably are better off leaving.
I never had a problem leaving a religon and I have tried a few,the differance being I
never left God just organizied religon.
I believe the body of Christ is made up of many people,of many walks of life and how
you worship is your choice.
If organized religon works for you that is fantastic.
The Way International liked to control people like some kinda of little special army for God.
But what it came down to was MONEY and pyrimid buiding blocks they substitued for "faith".
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waterbuffalo
Cheranne, I just finished Morton's Tom Cruise Bio. The thing that amazed me is how exactly like twi they are. For example, Sea Orgs, Scientology's discipes who are paid $35 per week, LIVE in the Cruise's house. They are their housekeepers, do laundry, buy groceries, in effect, wait on them constantly because of Tom's celebrity status. They did that during Nicole's marriage to Tom also. Sound familiar? In addition, they each have a Scientology person assigned to them who go EVERYWHERE with them. Tom's is usually the leader of the group who is also his "best friend," and Katie has some woman who goes everywhere with her. How creepy is that?
As Oeno said, Scientology makes twi look like Sunday School, but some posters might disagree with that. People who have left the group and gone public telling what it was/it like, have been harassed, stalked, and some have even committed suicide. As I said, some may think it is closer to twi than others.
I think CONTROL and MONEY are the duo bottom lines. Tom left Nicole, e.g. moved his things out of their house after she gave an interview in which she answered a question by stating that Scientology, Roman Catholicism, and something else made up her religious beliefs. Can't have that. His spouse has to believe totally in S., according to Morton. I read his book because he claimed to have interview many, many ex-Scientologists. Also, it's creepy that Tom of course has custody of the two adopted children and is raising them completely in S. Nicole has video cam visitation with them. I suppose she decided she couldn't fight them...
Edited by wb to add MONEY to the bottom line.
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cheranne
yep. Control and Money
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