Well, you could try telling her that TWI is dead against anything that affects the mind, or might open up the mind to devil spirits (hence the two-drink rule).
She will probably say something along the lines of, "It's grace, we can do what we like." That would authorize her smoking pot.
Although TWI might have had roots in the 60s pot and pop culture, it's certainly not there now. Pot would be a serious no-no when I was in. In fact, even smoking ordinary cigarettes was a major no-no and Corps people were dismissed for smoking. One of those unwritten rules.
I think on the good side, it might show she has a streak of rebellion/independence that means she will shuck off TWI once she gets to [her university]. TWI and its hangers-on may lose their appeal against so much other new stuff.
So, some (if not most of the regulars) here know about my friend who is in TWI, and who's going to school at the xxxxxxxxxxxxx. We haven't talked in about a month and a half and just last night she called and we caught up.
I know xxx is a huge party school, so is the University of Arkansas, where I'll be going in a year, but even so, she drinks and smokes pot practically every f**king night! I worry about the gal, sure, but this made any possibility of a future relationship go out the window immediately. She knows about Sara (my current girlfriend) and she's fine with it, but I find that she still has feelings for me and I honestly want to tell her that I see absolutely, unequivocally, no possibility whatsoever of she and I being together in the future.
And oh, the religious implications! What she's been doing has made me wonder about TWI's sense of morality, if the stories here haven't made me wonder enough. In our same conversation says she loves God so much and that she's so into her faith. And she loves this campus ministry that TWI has at xxx, but I'm thinking to myself as we're talking, "Okay...no offense to you, but I have trouble believing that. Actions speak louder than words, so they say."
So, I don't know...just bothered me.
EDIT: I meant to put the title as "A Rant, if You Don't Mind" Could someone change that for me?
Are you a Christian? Is that what bothers you about her actions or the hypocrisy?
What kind of language(above) is that for any Christian to use? Just wondering? What about your sense of morality? Just seems an odd observation for you to be making while using such a foul word.
If you don't claim Christianity as your faith fine. . . . direct her to AA or NA. Get her some help.
As I recall, this young lady was pretty much under her parents' control while under their roof. Perhaps she is just letting off steam, exploring new unfettered freedom, and will settle down after a while. I hope so.
By the Way, Geisha, my very own ears heard VPW and LCM use the "F" word more than once. Being a Christian doesn't necessarily rule out the use of Anglo-Saxon expletives.
As I recall, this young lady was pretty much under her parents' control while under their roof. Perhaps she is just letting off steam, exploring new unfettered freedom, and will settle down after a while. I hope so.
IMHO, that's PART of it.
When I finished high school, the saludatorian was seen as an extreme geek, with no room in his life for
anything but classes.
A little over a year later, I heard from someone who'd seen him in college, in his first year.
He had turned into a party animal, who partied more in a week than I did all semester, at the time.
Having left his hermetic seal of "nothing but studying", he burned out quickly and all he DID was party.
If I were to hazard a guess, this is similar. Someone's been kept under the thumb of a situation where they
haven't been allowed to think for themself- and then, suddenly, ALL their decisions were their own.
The result? They don't have the maturity-or the PRACTICE- of making sound decisions, so they just
turned into a party animal.
Perhaps I am wrong, and this is temporary. After all, I know very little about this person, about their situation.
By the Way, Geisha, my very own ears heard VPW and LCM use the "F" word more than once. Being a Christian doesn't necessarily rule out the use of Anglo-Saxon expletives.
WG
Somewhere between "thou shalt not even use the name "Balzac" in discussing philosophy"
and
"do whatever thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"
is a lot of room, including space for an expletive or two.
Perhaps it is improper to use them. Perhaps this is not a formal setting and it doesn't matter if they're
If I'm reading you right Brush, this is more of a personal concern on your part, than a TWI policies and procedures question. That said -
I'd agree that drinking, smoking pot and "partying" around isn't the highest level for any lifestyle, Christian or otherwise. But people do it, that are members of churches and go to church and probably consider themselves Christian. TWI has it's share, although they're experts at rationalizing and explaining away immoral and unethical behavior. But then, who isn't? One man's ceiling is another man's garage. People do what they will.
She may not be a product of that though, what she does may have nothing to do with her TWI affiliations, for or against. You'd have to get that from her, how she feels her lifestyle is informed by what she really believes, TWI, etc.
There was some discussion on one of those Wayfer boards where the quesiton came up about "what about pot, is it okay?" A lot of them were students, and I'd been reading in on the board for awhile and that intrigued me. There were a lot of weezy responses about the bible and what was best and what wasn't. I've only posted once and that was it. I'd say to her and anyone the same thing -
Pot's an illegal drug. Buying it puts the average "street" user one level away from some pretty nasty and dangerous people. Until it's completely legal and distribution channels for it are above board, it's breaking the law to buy it, use it and sell it, to varying degrees, and it's probably supporting some highly illegal activity a level or two into the distribution chain. Medicinal uses aside, there's little to recommend it. Oh yeah - you get "high".
I got no response on that board to my post and the thread died after that. I didn't quote any verses from the bible though, so their brains might have fogged over upon reading "words".
Are you a Christian? Is that what bothers you about her actions or the hypocrisy?
What kind of language(above) is that for any Christian to use? Just wondering? What about your sense of morality? Just seems an odd observation for you to be making while using such a foul word.
If you don't claim Christianity as your faith fine. . . . direct her to AA or NA. Get her some help.
geisha779, yes, in fact I am a Christian. And yeah, using that specific expletive was a bit out of line, but I tend to do that sometimes when I'm frustrated or irritated about something. I'm not justifying it, and I probably shouldn't speak like that, but this is just an fyi.
Brushstroke, it is important to find out her motivation for partying like this, as Socks said, she may be acting out on her own, outside of her beliefs.
On the other hand twi is infamous for teaching one thing and really having an undercurrent of practice which is quite the opposite, a culture within the biblical teachings where everyone gets a "pass" for their actions no matter how bad they are.
There is quite an elitist attitude wherein everyone is so righteous that they can do whatever they want because all it takes is an "I'm sorry" to God for broken fellowship and everything is back to normal again. Â
There was a whole subculture where partying, binge drinking, and casual sex, was acceptable. Â
There is an attitude that twi has the market cornered on truth, no other organization is up to par, that they are better than anyone else in the world, which also feeds into the attitude that there is no accountability. Â They are taught there's in no condemnation (in Christ), which also translates into do what ever you want, the penalties are low. Â In contrast, the leaders use the scriptures politically as a club to impose order and to elimanate members that don't measure up. Â
TWI is a unconventionally weird conglomeration of doctrine vs practice.
There is quite an elitist attitude wherein everyone is so righteous that they can do whatever they want
That's true - remember the "if you can handle it" logic? That reasoning allowed a person to go further "out" of the moral and ethical boxes of man's making if, if IF they and those around them weren't offended or viewed what was being done as wrong, IE "sin". By rounding corners off some otherwise very straightforward instructions and commandments from the N.T. it allowed for a wide range of behavior to take place.
There is a very shakey biblical basis for that interpretation, the "make a brother stumble" stuff and a few other places, I forget, I'd have to look 'em up. But it has strong limitations - logically a rule can't be broken and protected by another if both rules are required. Those parts of the bible used to cover freedoms and liberalities actually lead a person towards restriction rather than allowance because everyone is required to not only behave in a brother or sisters best interests, it's also recommended they behave in a manner that doesn't give them a "stumblingblock".
So it's kind of like the bible is really saying "you can do whatever you want as long as you obey the spirit of the law of life in Christ, walk in love, never cause a brother to stumble by what you do and speak in a way that edifies others, and worship God in a manner that befits the great forgiveness and grace He's bestowed on you while always remembering that it's just as important what you think and feel, along with what you do. And then, yeah - then whatever you want, go for it.
S0 - pretty much whatever a person allows for themselves that they feel is "okay" but might be offensive to others - guess what? I'd never know about it because they're keeping it personal and limited in scope and activity. So if you're hearing about it, something's wrong. And you ALWAYS hear about it. Ever notice that? Hmmm...there must be a pattern there and possibly something to learn from that, maybe - no. Nope. Naaaaw!
This explains so much if ex-Wayfers and Wayfers alike would understand it. These ex-Wayfer Rev's who constantly can't keep it in their pants, or can't stay married or have one debacle after another - the message from God is...
Take a hint. CHANGE WHAT YOU'RE DOING and CHANGE THE RESULTS. DUMMY! It AIN'T WORKING! YOU THINK IT IS BUT YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE!
That's a pretty linear wordy post but I hope it makes some sense. Wayfers that have absorbed that "do it if it feels good just hide it" philosophy by trickle down influence are all wet. If she's gotten a swig of that thinking, take her to task over it and try to understand how in the world she really got to that conclusion.
geisha779, yes, in fact I am a Christian. And yeah, using that specific expletive was a bit out of line, but I tend to do that sometimes when I'm frustrated or irritated about something. I'm not justifying it, and I probably shouldn't speak like that, but this is just an fyi.
Well, I just wondered. Struck me as odd and actually reminded me of TWI --we spoke about God with mouths like drunken sailors. I still spit one out every now and then. . . usually when the Red Sox blow it.
Frustration I do understand. Especially when dealing with TWI.
Her life reflects the reality of intellectual assent. That is what TWI is in most respects--when it comes to the things of God. It takes some convoluted justification IMHO.
Do you think she would read Oswald Chambers? My Utmost for His Highest?
Pray for her as I am sure you do. . . . God is able and willing. . . .it may take years. . . you may never see it. . . but He is faithful. Make intercession for her, she is unable right now. . . but God is always able. He will have to be the one to really reach her.
So, some (if not most of the regulars) here know about my friend who is in TWI, and who's going to school at the xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.
I know xxx is a huge party school, so is the University of Arkansas, where I'll be going in a year, but even so, she drinks and smokes pot practically every f**king night
She's a college student who smokes pot and likes to drink...in all honesty, I wouldn't make that much out of it...
Regret to say one of the things I learned from TWI was how to swear. Interesting F-words ... in "sermons."
JC used some culturally strong language - to confront the Pharisees. He never used such language to address his congregation or flock.
Generally speaking nowadays, I only use such strong language (and then not much) when I hear or think about abuses carried out in God's name. If mere me gets riled up, what must God do?
All evening yesterday I was wondering how to approach you with some constructive criticism on this thread of yours.
When I go into a rant, and it may.....ahem.....have happened occasionally, I consider the effects of the rant on all involved. As you are a young man who has shown a very mature level of introspection, I would simply ask you, are you certain that as a Christian that you are comfortable with the motives behind your rant. I must point out again that as far as rants go it was well restrained IMO, but that doesn't speak to the motives either. And I don't know the situation well enough to judge any involved.
All evening yesterday I was wondering how to approach you with some constructive criticism on this thread of yours.
When I go into a rant, and it may.....ahem.....have happened occasionally, I consider the effects of the rant on all involved. As you are a young man who has shown a very mature level of introspection, I would simply ask you, are you certain that as a Christian that you are comfortable with the motives behind your rant. I must point out again that as far as rants go it was well restrained IMO, but that doesn't speak to the motives either. And I don't know the situation well enough to judge any involved.
PEACE
JEFF
Jeff,
Motives behind the rant? I don't see any real "motive" behind a rant, other than to just get some anger out.
But if you're talking about the content of the rant, then rest assured, I'm looking at her best interest. I'm just concerned about the constant drinking and partying, and she even mentioned that she thought she should probably drink less than she has been. And when we talked about how our classes are going, she mentioned that things aren't going as well as she had hoped -- she's tired all the time, not getting stuff handed in, sleeping in class. It worries me, that's all. The notion of hypocrisy was an observation made in addendum.
If I'm reading you right Brush, this is more of a personal concern on your part, than a TWI policies and procedures question. That said -
I'd agree that drinking, smoking pot and "partying" around isn't the highest level for any lifestyle, Christian or otherwise. But people do it, that are members of churches and go to church and probably consider themselves Christian. TWI has it's share, although they're experts at rationalizing and explaining away immoral and unethical behavior. But then, who isn't?
(snip)
(snip)
On the other hand twi is infamous for teaching one thing and really having an undercurrent of practice which is quite the opposite, a culture within the biblical teachings where everyone gets a "pass" for their actions no matter how bad they are.
There is quite an elitist attitude wherein everyone is so righteous that they can do whatever they want because all it takes is an "I'm sorry" to God for broken fellowship and everything is back to normal again.
There was a whole subculture where partying, binge drinking, and casual sex, was acceptable.
There is an attitude that twi has the market cornered on truth, no other organization is up to par, that they are better than anyone else in the world, which also feeds into the attitude that there is no accountability. They are taught there's in no condemnation (in Christ), which also translates into do what ever you want, the penalties are low. In contrast, the leaders use the scriptures politically as a club to impose order and to elimanate members that don't measure up.
TWI is a unconventionally weird conglomeration of doctrine vs practice.
That's true - remember the "if you can handle it" logic? That reasoning allowed a person to go further "out" of the moral and ethical boxes of man's making if, if IF they and those around them weren't offended or viewed what was being done as wrong, IE "sin". By rounding corners off some otherwise very straightforward instructions and commandments from the N.T. it allowed for a wide range of behavior to take place.
There is a very shakey biblical basis for that interpretation, the "make a brother stumble" stuff and a few other places, I forget, I'd have to look 'em up. But it has strong limitations - logically a rule can't be broken and protected by another if both rules are required. Those parts of the bible used to cover freedoms and liberalities actually lead a person towards restriction rather than allowance because everyone is required to not only behave in a brother or sisters best interests, it's also recommended they behave in a manner that doesn't give them a "stumblingblock".
So it's kind of like the bible is really saying "you can do whatever you want as long as you obey the spirit of the law of life in Christ, walk in love, never cause a brother to stumble by what you do and speak in a way that edifies others, and worship God in a manner that befits the great forgiveness and grace He's bestowed on you while always remembering that it's just as important what you think and feel, along with what you do. And then, yeah - then whatever you want, go for it.
S0 - pretty much whatever a person allows for themselves that they feel is "okay" but might be offensive to others - guess what? I'd never know about it because they're keeping it personal and limited in scope and activity. So if you're hearing about it, something's wrong. And you ALWAYS hear about it. Ever notice that? Hmmm...there must be a pattern there and possibly something to learn from that, maybe - no. Nope. Naaaaw!
This explains so much if ex-Wayfers and Wayfers alike would understand it. These ex-Wayfer Rev's who constantly can't keep it in their pants, or can't stay married or have one debacle after another - the message from God is...
Take a hint. CHANGE WHAT YOU'RE DOING and CHANGE THE RESULTS. DUMMY! It AIN'T WORKING! YOU THINK IT IS BUT YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE!
That's a pretty linear wordy post but I hope it makes some sense. Wayfers that have absorbed that "do it if it feels good just hide it" philosophy by trickle down influence are all wet. If she's gotten a swig of that thinking, take her to task over it and try to understand how in the world she really got to that conclusion.
Motives behind the rant? I don't see any real "motive" behind a rant, other than to just get some anger out.
But if you're talking about the content of the rant, then rest assured, I'm looking at her best interest. I'm just concerned about the constant drinking and partying, and she even mentioned that she thought she should probably drink less than she has been. And when we talked about how our classes are going, she mentioned that things aren't going as well as she had hoped -- she's tired all the time, not getting stuff handed in, sleeping in class. It worries me, that's all. The notion of hypocrisy was an observation made in addendum.
Dear Brushstroke,
When I was younger and in TWI people had a hard time handling the sex and drugs issue. It seems clear to me now that because of Wierwille's lifestyle that many people who could have used genuine love and guidance in these categories could not receive the help that they needed, myself included.
IMO, people that have a strict religious controlling influence in their life that isn't accompanied by the kind of love that would lead to a real change of heart will go off the deep end (so to speak) when given the opportunity.
I'm glad that you feel that you have your friend's best interest at heart too.
JEFF
Edited to remove Brushstroke's friend's name so that the WayGB or her parents don't give her holy heck for what he's revealed about her in this thread. Everyone: Please stop referring to her by name or mentioning her locaton or the name of the college she attends. Thanks, ModRocker
Thanks Wolf - and here's the versese I was thinking of -
1 Cor. 10:23, 24-
All things are lawful; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful; but not all things edify. Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbor's good.
The context is important - it's making a case for what the intent is and the aim of a thing done. Offerings to "idols" have nothing (less I suppose) to do with what the offering is and what is or isn't permissible by way of kinds of things offered, the real issue is the offering being done to an "idol". At this point the verses are simply stating that something can be "okay" but may not be good to do. Duh.
It's okay to eat food, but not food that's poisonous. Why? You die. Okay to drink wine but not get drunk and beat your parakeet. Why? Your brain hurts later and the parakeet will repress the memories, join a street gang, rob and steal, do dope, and someday have Little 'Keets that will do worse.
It's okay to murder, but not murder a friend - wait! There's a law against that, friends or enemies. Murder isn't okay. So it doesn't take a long ruler to measure the parameters of what's being spoken about. "All" things aren't anything.
The logic is simple, common sense and doesn't require a theological microscope to understand.
Moreover there's clarification on the breadth of application - Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbor's good. It may be "okay" for you but if it harms another in some way, don't do it.
This verse can't be applied, understood or used to support that any action can be okay, but just make sure it's between trusted friends and allies who understand and won't be "harmed" but will be "mature" enough to understand. In the author's world, it doesn't matter if it's a pig, goat, tomato or cracker - if it's offered in idolatrous effort (if it breaks another "law" or rule) or/and if it causes another harm, it's wrong. Don't do it. In fact, it's a great verse for Tree Huggers and other do-gooders, since it's inferring that a "Christian" not only do right by his neighbor but look out for them. "My brother's keeper", indeed.
People sit in their rooms alone or get together with a few "trusted" friends and get toasted and assume it's okay. Is it? You can poke your own eye out till you can't see - is it okay? Do I just watch and understand? Grab a pencil?
Only a fool will err in the answer.
* Lest this get the whole rant moved to the Popsicle Stand forum I better make some effort to relate to the original post in a less than obtuse fashion - hypocrisy isn't limited to religious followers, human nature says one thing and does another ("I'm on a diet - well, maybe one piece won't hurt...") Everyone makes their own allowances and this young lady is probably not thinking that a few lost brain cells matter at her age. So the whole party-on deal may be just related to a youthful lack of foresight. Or, if it's related to any "biblical" excuse, this is meant to provide some insight into why that is - bulls--t, a religious term for baseless.
Modrockers response has me re-evaluating things. How are you doing?
In my mind there is a huge difference between your friend and my former splinter group, not to mention TWI. The things that will help them at this point I believe need to be harsh.
My rants are not directed at my boy's mom however.
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Ham
Is this the same gal in a graduate program, or am I mistaking her for someone else?
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Twinky
Well, you could try telling her that TWI is dead against anything that affects the mind, or might open up the mind to devil spirits (hence the two-drink rule).
She will probably say something along the lines of, "It's grace, we can do what we like." That would authorize her smoking pot.
Although TWI might have had roots in the 60s pot and pop culture, it's certainly not there now. Pot would be a serious no-no when I was in. In fact, even smoking ordinary cigarettes was a major no-no and Corps people were dismissed for smoking. One of those unwritten rules.
I think on the good side, it might show she has a streak of rebellion/independence that means she will shuck off TWI once she gets to [her university]. TWI and its hangers-on may lose their appeal against so much other new stuff.
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coolchef
i dont smoke pot now but i did back in the70's
so did the limb leader and branch leader
oh, the kinder genteler days!
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geisha779
Are you a Christian? Is that what bothers you about her actions or the hypocrisy?
What kind of language(above) is that for any Christian to use? Just wondering? What about your sense of morality? Just seems an odd observation for you to be making while using such a foul word.
If you don't claim Christianity as your faith fine. . . . direct her to AA or NA. Get her some help.
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Watered Garden
As I recall, this young lady was pretty much under her parents' control while under their roof. Perhaps she is just letting off steam, exploring new unfettered freedom, and will settle down after a while. I hope so.
By the Way, Geisha, my very own ears heard VPW and LCM use the "F" word more than once. Being a Christian doesn't necessarily rule out the use of Anglo-Saxon expletives.
WG
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WordWolf
IMHO, that's PART of it.
When I finished high school, the saludatorian was seen as an extreme geek, with no room in his life for
anything but classes.
A little over a year later, I heard from someone who'd seen him in college, in his first year.
He had turned into a party animal, who partied more in a week than I did all semester, at the time.
Having left his hermetic seal of "nothing but studying", he burned out quickly and all he DID was party.
If I were to hazard a guess, this is similar. Someone's been kept under the thumb of a situation where they
haven't been allowed to think for themself- and then, suddenly, ALL their decisions were their own.
The result? They don't have the maturity-or the PRACTICE- of making sound decisions, so they just
turned into a party animal.
Perhaps I am wrong, and this is temporary. After all, I know very little about this person, about their situation.
Somewhere between "thou shalt not even use the name "Balzac" in discussing philosophy"
and
"do whatever thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"
is a lot of room, including space for an expletive or two.
Perhaps it is improper to use them. Perhaps this is not a formal setting and it doesn't matter if they're
used a little.
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JeffSjo
Dear Brushstroke,
It sounds to me like you are dealing with the things concerning [your friend] well and I'm glad to hear it.
Oh yeah, the rant seemed well restrained, good job.
PEACE
JEFF
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socks
If I'm reading you right Brush, this is more of a personal concern on your part, than a TWI policies and procedures question. That said -
I'd agree that drinking, smoking pot and "partying" around isn't the highest level for any lifestyle, Christian or otherwise. But people do it, that are members of churches and go to church and probably consider themselves Christian. TWI has it's share, although they're experts at rationalizing and explaining away immoral and unethical behavior. But then, who isn't? One man's ceiling is another man's garage. People do what they will.
She may not be a product of that though, what she does may have nothing to do with her TWI affiliations, for or against. You'd have to get that from her, how she feels her lifestyle is informed by what she really believes, TWI, etc.
There was some discussion on one of those Wayfer boards where the quesiton came up about "what about pot, is it okay?" A lot of them were students, and I'd been reading in on the board for awhile and that intrigued me. There were a lot of weezy responses about the bible and what was best and what wasn't. I've only posted once and that was it. I'd say to her and anyone the same thing -
Pot's an illegal drug. Buying it puts the average "street" user one level away from some pretty nasty and dangerous people. Until it's completely legal and distribution channels for it are above board, it's breaking the law to buy it, use it and sell it, to varying degrees, and it's probably supporting some highly illegal activity a level or two into the distribution chain. Medicinal uses aside, there's little to recommend it. Oh yeah - you get "high".
I got no response on that board to my post and the thread died after that. I didn't quote any verses from the bible though, so their brains might have fogged over upon reading "words".
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Brushstroke
geisha779, yes, in fact I am a Christian. And yeah, using that specific expletive was a bit out of line, but I tend to do that sometimes when I'm frustrated or irritated about something. I'm not justifying it, and I probably shouldn't speak like that, but this is just an fyi.
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now I see
Brushstroke, it is important to find out her motivation for partying like this, as Socks said, she may be acting out on her own, outside of her beliefs.
On the other hand twi is infamous for teaching one thing and really having an undercurrent of practice which is quite the opposite, a culture within the biblical teachings where everyone gets a "pass" for their actions no matter how bad they are.
There is quite an elitist attitude wherein everyone is so righteous that they can do whatever they want because all it takes is an "I'm sorry" to God for broken fellowship and everything is back to normal again. Â
There was a whole subculture where partying, binge drinking, and casual sex, was acceptable. Â
There is an attitude that twi has the market cornered on truth, no other organization is up to par, that they are better than anyone else in the world, which also feeds into the attitude that there is no accountability. Â They are taught there's in no condemnation (in Christ), which also translates into do what ever you want, the penalties are low. Â In contrast, the leaders use the scriptures politically as a club to impose order and to elimanate members that don't measure up. Â
TWI is a unconventionally weird conglomeration of doctrine vs practice.
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socks
That's true - remember the "if you can handle it" logic? That reasoning allowed a person to go further "out" of the moral and ethical boxes of man's making if, if IF they and those around them weren't offended or viewed what was being done as wrong, IE "sin". By rounding corners off some otherwise very straightforward instructions and commandments from the N.T. it allowed for a wide range of behavior to take place.
There is a very shakey biblical basis for that interpretation, the "make a brother stumble" stuff and a few other places, I forget, I'd have to look 'em up. But it has strong limitations - logically a rule can't be broken and protected by another if both rules are required. Those parts of the bible used to cover freedoms and liberalities actually lead a person towards restriction rather than allowance because everyone is required to not only behave in a brother or sisters best interests, it's also recommended they behave in a manner that doesn't give them a "stumblingblock".
So it's kind of like the bible is really saying "you can do whatever you want as long as you obey the spirit of the law of life in Christ, walk in love, never cause a brother to stumble by what you do and speak in a way that edifies others, and worship God in a manner that befits the great forgiveness and grace He's bestowed on you while always remembering that it's just as important what you think and feel, along with what you do. And then, yeah - then whatever you want, go for it.
S0 - pretty much whatever a person allows for themselves that they feel is "okay" but might be offensive to others - guess what? I'd never know about it because they're keeping it personal and limited in scope and activity. So if you're hearing about it, something's wrong. And you ALWAYS hear about it. Ever notice that? Hmmm...there must be a pattern there and possibly something to learn from that, maybe - no. Nope. Naaaaw!
This explains so much if ex-Wayfers and Wayfers alike would understand it. These ex-Wayfer Rev's who constantly can't keep it in their pants, or can't stay married or have one debacle after another - the message from God is...
Take a hint. CHANGE WHAT YOU'RE DOING and CHANGE THE RESULTS. DUMMY! It AIN'T WORKING! YOU THINK IT IS BUT YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE!
That's a pretty linear wordy post but I hope it makes some sense. Wayfers that have absorbed that "do it if it feels good just hide it" philosophy by trickle down influence are all wet. If she's gotten a swig of that thinking, take her to task over it and try to understand how in the world she really got to that conclusion.
Otherwise - the drinks are on her!
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geisha779
Well, I just wondered. Struck me as odd and actually reminded me of TWI --we spoke about God with mouths like drunken sailors. I still spit one out every now and then. . . usually when the Red Sox blow it.
Frustration I do understand. Especially when dealing with TWI.
Her life reflects the reality of intellectual assent. That is what TWI is in most respects--when it comes to the things of God. It takes some convoluted justification IMHO.
Do you think she would read Oswald Chambers? My Utmost for His Highest?
Pray for her as I am sure you do. . . . God is able and willing. . . .it may take years. . . you may never see it. . . but He is faithful. Make intercession for her, she is unable right now. . . but God is always able. He will have to be the one to really reach her.
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GrouchoMarxJr
She's a college student who smokes pot and likes to drink...in all honesty, I wouldn't make that much out of it...
...but that's just me.
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Brushstroke
Yeah, but over half the people I know (which is a lot of people), myself included, don't do it every other night. There's a pretty big difference.
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Twinky
Regret to say one of the things I learned from TWI was how to swear. Interesting F-words ... in "sermons."
JC used some culturally strong language - to confront the Pharisees. He never used such language to address his congregation or flock.
Generally speaking nowadays, I only use such strong language (and then not much) when I hear or think about abuses carried out in God's name. If mere me gets riled up, what must God do?
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JeffSjo
Dear Brushstroke,
All evening yesterday I was wondering how to approach you with some constructive criticism on this thread of yours.
When I go into a rant, and it may.....ahem.....have happened occasionally, I consider the effects of the rant on all involved. As you are a young man who has shown a very mature level of introspection, I would simply ask you, are you certain that as a Christian that you are comfortable with the motives behind your rant. I must point out again that as far as rants go it was well restrained IMO, but that doesn't speak to the motives either. And I don't know the situation well enough to judge any involved.
PEACE
JEFF
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Brushstroke
Jeff,
Motives behind the rant? I don't see any real "motive" behind a rant, other than to just get some anger out.
But if you're talking about the content of the rant, then rest assured, I'm looking at her best interest. I'm just concerned about the constant drinking and partying, and she even mentioned that she thought she should probably drink less than she has been. And when we talked about how our classes are going, she mentioned that things aren't going as well as she had hoped -- she's tired all the time, not getting stuff handed in, sleeping in class. It worries me, that's all. The notion of hypocrisy was an observation made in addendum.
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WordWolf
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JeffSjo
Dear Brushstroke,
When I was younger and in TWI people had a hard time handling the sex and drugs issue. It seems clear to me now that because of Wierwille's lifestyle that many people who could have used genuine love and guidance in these categories could not receive the help that they needed, myself included.
IMO, people that have a strict religious controlling influence in their life that isn't accompanied by the kind of love that would lead to a real change of heart will go off the deep end (so to speak) when given the opportunity.
I'm glad that you feel that you have your friend's best interest at heart too.
JEFF
Edited to remove Brushstroke's friend's name so that the WayGB or her parents don't give her holy heck for what he's revealed about her in this thread. Everyone: Please stop referring to her by name or mentioning her locaton or the name of the college she attends. Thanks, ModRocker
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socks
Thanks Wolf - and here's the versese I was thinking of -
1 Cor. 10:23, 24-
All things are lawful; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful; but not all things edify. Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbor's good.
The context is important - it's making a case for what the intent is and the aim of a thing done. Offerings to "idols" have nothing (less I suppose) to do with what the offering is and what is or isn't permissible by way of kinds of things offered, the real issue is the offering being done to an "idol". At this point the verses are simply stating that something can be "okay" but may not be good to do. Duh.
It's okay to eat food, but not food that's poisonous. Why? You die. Okay to drink wine but not get drunk and beat your parakeet. Why? Your brain hurts later and the parakeet will repress the memories, join a street gang, rob and steal, do dope, and someday have Little 'Keets that will do worse.
It's okay to murder, but not murder a friend - wait! There's a law against that, friends or enemies. Murder isn't okay. So it doesn't take a long ruler to measure the parameters of what's being spoken about. "All" things aren't anything.
The logic is simple, common sense and doesn't require a theological microscope to understand.
Moreover there's clarification on the breadth of application - Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbor's good. It may be "okay" for you but if it harms another in some way, don't do it.
This verse can't be applied, understood or used to support that any action can be okay, but just make sure it's between trusted friends and allies who understand and won't be "harmed" but will be "mature" enough to understand. In the author's world, it doesn't matter if it's a pig, goat, tomato or cracker - if it's offered in idolatrous effort (if it breaks another "law" or rule) or/and if it causes another harm, it's wrong. Don't do it. In fact, it's a great verse for Tree Huggers and other do-gooders, since it's inferring that a "Christian" not only do right by his neighbor but look out for them. "My brother's keeper", indeed.
People sit in their rooms alone or get together with a few "trusted" friends and get toasted and assume it's okay. Is it? You can poke your own eye out till you can't see - is it okay? Do I just watch and understand? Grab a pencil?
Only a fool will err in the answer.
* Lest this get the whole rant moved to the Popsicle Stand forum I better make some effort to relate to the original post in a less than obtuse fashion - hypocrisy isn't limited to religious followers, human nature says one thing and does another ("I'm on a diet - well, maybe one piece won't hurt...") Everyone makes their own allowances and this young lady is probably not thinking that a few lost brain cells matter at her age. So the whole party-on deal may be just related to a youthful lack of foresight. Or, if it's related to any "biblical" excuse, this is meant to provide some insight into why that is - bulls--t, a religious term for baseless.
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JeffSjo
Dear Modrocker,
You are quite right, thank you!
Dear Brushstroke,
Modrockers response has me re-evaluating things. How are you doing?
In my mind there is a huge difference between your friend and my former splinter group, not to mention TWI. The things that will help them at this point I believe need to be harsh.
My rants are not directed at my boy's mom however.
JEFF
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