Whoo Hooo! Step one accomplished

[Ham]

I gave a nice power point presentation in my world politics class last night..

after seeing slides of the towering sulfur laden pollution, sweat shops, and other horrors, I would estimate 28 or 29 out of thirty students will never buy at walmart again..

well, I think they would, provided the big corp chooses to "play nice"..

[Lifted Up]

The world is full of political and moral evil. Don't buy anything from anyone. That'l show them!

[Ham]

I've actually considered that.

well.. if the economy tanks, it's a moot point anyway..

[Ham]

I dunno.. it very well may be a dog eat dog world.. but isn't that kinda canabalistic?

I mean.. if one HAS to do it to survive, that's one thing.. but gorge oneself at the banquet with one's neighbor's flesh ..

roughly 400,000 chinese die prematurely yearly due to respiratory failure to pay for the banquet..

and we're not even looking at what's happening in India.. Equador.. Mexico..

one day, America's largest employer very well may be the largest non-voluntary contributor to some form of a global superfund to clean up the mess and make restitution..

it happened here. The local chemical company just dumped raw dioxin contaminated sewage into the river, without giving it a second thought.. now they are paying..

you'd think we'd learned something.. but nooooo..

I

[Lifted Up]

The world is full of political and moral evil. Don't buy anything from anyone. That'l show them!

It wasn't absolute, but my wife's family did a fair job of that in past years in Siberia, because they had to, growing a bunch of their own food, had their own mild source, and making a lot of their own clothes.

I should have mentioned this first, but beyond my sarcasm, I congratulate you on what evidently was an effective presentation.

[Lifted Up]

I would estimate 28 or 29 out of thirty students will never buy at walmart again..

Aha, but there was that one (or two) you didn't reach...must have a relative working there or work there themselves.

[Ham]

I still think our destiny is basically in our own hands..

I can't blame or criticize people for living as they must.. the three dollar a month drug plan and all.. if that's what you have to do to live..that's not exactly discretionary spending. I had to pull out of my local drugstore and go to kroger's seven dollar a month plan. I won't go to walmart unless it's the last resort.. if I can't afford to pay the additional four dollars a month to pick up medicine at a place within walking distance, I think I'm in trouble..

it's the spending of discretionary income.. buying little trinkets made in china, india.. Equador..manufactured with sulfur and slave labor.. I can't buy it and keep a clean conscience..

the big question to the class was, given a choice, if you can buy a widget produced for fourteen dollars, vs. one for three dollars, manufactured unethically, which would you choose?

Only one person said they'd buy the three dollar version. Simply because that's all they could "afford".. I didn't beat them up over it.. it's your money.. do what you gotta do..

but there really is a different scenario here.. the "widget" isn't exactly ESSENTIAL to life, is it?

choice one: buy the fourteen dollar widget..

choice two: buy the three dollar widget...

choice three: DON'T BUY THE DAGGONE WIDGET!!!

I know.. it's "unamerican" and all..

[waysider]

Hey!

Let's buy a run down old property in the middle of Podunk, U.S.A.

Then we'll get 50 or so "volunteers" to dedicate their every waking moment to fixing up the place.

We'll promise them lessons in life they can't get anywhere else.

If they start to see through our plan, we'll tell them the boogie-man will get them if they dare to leave.

Yeah, that's it.

We'll have them grow their own veggies and build a root cellar. (Just in case.)

Maybe even convince them it's all part of a bigger cause.

OOPS!-----I guess that one's been done before.

Edited November 18, 2008 by waysider

[Ham]

Maybe the whole point is: when you get the stimulus check, don't have a bank account or don't want to open one.. go ahead, wally mart will cash it for you.. get in, cash it for a small fee, get your meds.. or ESSENTIAL items, and walk out. Of course after paying for them..

I think a close second to wally world- the dollar stores. They exist to sell trinkets.. little pieces of plastic manufactured under the same conditions..

I can't dictate my personal plan to others.. I might suggest it..

If I pick up ESSENTIAL cleaning supplies.. I'm in and out. No walk down the useless tool aisle.. what am I going to do with another set of screwdrivers.. I've already got a dozen of all makes and sizes..

no trip down the "artsie" trinket aisle..

no gadgets..

the last time I purchased three cheap flashlights.. within six months none were usable. I mean.. they wore out, just sitting on the shelf..

the maglite I have is still fully operational.. and it has one of the LED bulbs in it, a big one.. the bulb cost about seventeen dollars, but the flashlight has the same set of alkaline batteries in it that I originally put in it three years ago.. even with use, they will last over their rated shelf life- which expires in something like 2012.

It likely will NEVER go to the landfill.

the three cheap ones did..

[Lifted Up]

Try this...let admonitions of where not to buy be accompanied by choices from which we should choose where to buy.

Then we will see how fast someone can rip apart the "good" choices.

[Ham]

Hey!

Let's buy a run down old property in the middle of Podunk, U.S.A.

Then we'll get 50 or so "volunteers" to dedicate their every waking moment to fixing up the place.

We'll promise them lessons in life they can't get anywhere else.

If they start to see through our plan, we'll tell them the boogie-man will get them if they dare to leave.

Yeah, that's it.

We'll have them grow their own veggies and build a root cellar. (Just in case.)

Maybe even convince them it's all part of a bigger cause.

OOPS!-----I guess that one's been done before.

Now now. I'm not suggesting an "Amish" way of life here..

I think they are in "survival mode" to be honest. Holed up waiting for the end of the world..

I think it's like twi circa 1976..

I don't really object so much about growing their own vegies.. it's just everything else that comes with it..

I don't think the battle is an "us vs. them" scenario.. it's an "us vs. us".. we are the ones who fund the corporations.. every purchase of a useless bauble is another vote of confidence..

all of that sulfur, unburned hydrocarbons and God only knows whatever else that's slowly wafting across the Pacific ocean- technically, it's not *them*, it's US.. we are doing it to ourselves..

[Ham]

Try this...let admonitions of where not to buy be accompanied by choices from which we should choose where to buy.

Then we will see how fast someone can rip apart the "good" choices.

Tomato products are probably the number one staple at my house..

I buy bushels of tomatos in the fall from a local small time farmer.

Of these, I have about twenty five or so gallons of tomato product that I canned for the winter, and they'll probably be enough for half of the following year..

sure, he uses a tractor, that uses foreign oil.. but he doesn't need a big truck or trailer to haul his vegies to market- people come to him. For a better price- and there is less pollution produced.

Not to mention that he also has a vested interest in his land.. he won't deplete it with overly heavy production.

He uses far less pesticides and fertilizer.. so there's less junk leaching off in the ground water..

The tomatos aren't genetically engineered, with spliced in fish dna.. so they are perishable. That's the whole point of preserving them in jars.. it's a better product, and after heating costs to cook them and can, the cost is still radically less than what one would buy the same product in a store (even wally mart) in the dead of winter.

I don't can beans, or corn, except to consume a little in the summer. I just don't consume enough yearly to justify the labor and expense putting them away.

So I'm happy.. I've saved a considerable amount of money, gotten a product better than can be outright bought, the farmer is happy- he's gotten more profit from his crop than if he were forced to haul to market, or sell to the big corps.. the environment is far happier- everybody is happy.

I actually gave him a dollar more per bushel than he asked.. and I'm still way ahead..

I really WANT him "happy".. I'd like to see him around next year..

[Lifted Up]

So I'm happy.. I've saved a considerable amount of money, gotten a product better than can be outright bought, the farmer is happy- he's gotten more profit from his crop than if he were forced to haul to market, or sell to the big corps.. the environment is far happier- everybody is happy.

Do you think you can transfer this "everybody is happy" idea to the political forum? :o

[Zshot]

Just to add more fuel to the fire

Next time you pick up a ball to play a sport or put on athletic clothing, think about who manufactured the clothing, ball or equipment. Currently, many of our sporting goods are made overseas. There are very few companies here in America that still make athletic equipment.

[Ham]

Naw.. I've got enough rude comments about *them* there as it is..

I'd like to see this thread evolve into some discussion about how to make the world a little better.. maybe increase a little global self-awareness..

I don't think there's any real political blame to pass around. Conservatives can pollute just as efficiently as Liberals..

besides- it has been shown that at least one rather large political entity cannot be forced to act in favor of it's own common good..

[GeorgeStGeorge]

it happened here. The local chemical company just dumped raw dioxin contaminated sewage into the river, without giving it a second thought.. now they are paying..

you'd think we'd learned something.. but nooooo..

Interesting. Dioxin notwithstanding, dumping raw sewage into a public waterway is illegal.

As far as the dioxin goes, how much WAS there, parts per billion, parts per trillion? With the tremendous outcry against dioxins in the 80's, Dow developed analytical methods to determine it in parts per QUADRILLION. The problem with that is that people think that ANY is a hazard and so the ability to find such infinitesimal quantities is actually counterproductive, because people will think that there is a hazard where there is none. Background levels of dioxins are generally in the low parts per billion, because they are formed pretty much whenever trees, grass, etc., burn.

George

[Ham]

Just to add more fuel to the fire

Next time you pick up a ball to play a sport or put on athletic clothing, think about who manufactured the clothing, ball or equipment. Currently, many of our sporting goods are made overseas. There are very few companies here in America that still make athletic equipment.

there is a store here, I haven't checked to see if it's still open.. they are called "Play it Again, Sam". My kids ended up with a couple of baseball gloves from there.

they buy, recondition, and resell athletic goods for less than they originally sold. Sure, the original item may have been produced in the far east.. but if it's life can be tripled- that's one-third the amount of sulphur in the air, and less junk in the landfill..

So.. the consumer is happy.. he has a usable, decent product, less than what he could buy a new glove for..

the guy who owns the little shop is happy.. he's just turned more profit on selling a used glove than what he would if he sold overpriced junk.. the environment is at least happier..

Now I'd draw the line SOMEWHERE. Used athletic protection cups? I don't think so.. shoes? I don't know if there are any good options other than just breaking down any buying them..

point is, there is generally a better choice.

[waysider]

About 25 years ago, I worked on a maintenance/construction crew for a super-sized logistics operation.

Our particular location specialized in clothing.(hanging)

We did a lot of welding and cutting. We had one very old welding blanket that was falling apart. Every time we moved it, which was several times a day, clouds of asbestos filled the immediate vicinity. I complained to management. Next thing i know, it's been replaced with a newer, safer model. But, no one seemed to know what happened to the old one or if it had been properly disposed of. Next, we had a massive flooring project. Management was reluctant to buy new materials because they had boxes and boxes of asbestos laden tiles left over from the original construction of the building, as well as used tiles being stored from previous revamping.. They had us grind and cut those used tiles to fit the areas. Saved a few dollars, I suppose. "Someone" placed an anonymous call to OSHA. When they arrived, all the boxes of tainted tile had mysteriously vanished. Three guesses who found himself looking for a new employer over that one.

(Doing the "right thing" isn't nearly all it's cracked up to be.)

Edited November 18, 2008 by waysider

[Ham]

Interesting. Dioxin notwithstanding, dumping raw sewage into a public waterway is illegal.

As far as the dioxin goes, how much WAS there, parts per billion, parts per trillion? With the tremendous outcry against dioxins in the 80's, Dow developed analytical methods to determine it in parts per QUADRILLION. The problem with that is that people think that ANY is a hazard and so the ability to find such infinitesimal quantities is actually counterproductive, because people will think that there is a hazard where there is none. Background levels of dioxins are generally in the low parts per billion, because they are formed pretty much whenever trees, grass, etc., burn.

George

maybe not sewage.. it's more a witches brew of phenols.. mercury, chromium and only God knows what else..

I think that Dow might be unfairly targeted for every problem known to man.. they have their own skeletons though.

What about the other big chemical company that was in (I think) St. Louis, Michigan? If I'm not mistaken, they are upstream of Dow.. and they were a heavy polluter. They have been out of business for DECADES.

The fish here do have a high level of mercury.. and the problem with mercury is cumulative. It goes in the environment, and generally stays there. Was it from Dow, or the other company? Who knows..

but look at this little treat:

I can't believe he's letting his dog drink whatever it is.. maybe it isn't his dog..

just what IS in the water? Red food dye? Maybe that's it.. they are making red "designer" water to sell to the elite in europe..

oh yes.. you like fish? Mercury from china and india is now detectable in waters off of New England..

and there is no political entity whose feet to place the blame at.. we are doing this to ourselves..

[Lifted Up]

Hey, didn't WALL-E just come out on DVD?

Edited November 18, 2008 by Lifted Up

[Ham]

About 25 years ago, I worked on a maintenance/construction crew for a super-sized logistics operation.

Our particular location specialized in clothing.(hanging)

We did a lot of welding and cutting. We had one very old welding blanket that was falling apart. Every time we moved it, which was several times a day, clouds of asbestos filled the immediate vicinity. I complained to management. Next thing i know, it's been replaced with a newer, safer model. But, no one seemed to know what happened to the old one or if it had been properly disposed of. Next, we had a massive flooring project. Management was reluctant to buy new materials because they had boxes and boxes of asbestos laden tiles left over from the original construction of the building, as well as used tiles being stored from previous revamping.. They had us grind and cut those used tiles to fit the areas. Saved a few dollars, I suppose. "Someone" placed an anonymous call to OSHA. When they arrived, all the boxes of tainted tile had mysteriously vanished. Three guesses who found himself looking for a new employer over that one.

(Doing the "right thing" isn't nearly all it's cracked up to be.)

yeah.. life can "suck"..

In China, there wouldn't be a phone call to begin with..

they were interviewing some sweatshop workers, asked them "who do you go to when there's a 'problem' with *management*.."

they couldn't understand the question.. the concept was so foreign, so non-existent..

[washn'wear]

It starts back here, but not with the guy who walks into wallyworld.

Maybe if we actually taxed imports the way the rest of the world taxes the H out of us for our imports to their countries...

We are already seeing things slow down because the fuel to bring it to the US is still prohibitive (we are only in a hiatus right now)

[Ham]

true.. government intervention would change a few things.. but the likelihood is rather slim.. in the face of disaster, we still have bigwigs standing loudly praising the virtues of (supposed) free trade.

I'm not against world trade as such.. it's unethical "trade". Without trade, I couldn't enjoy a banana once in a while.. or hazel nuts, coffee..

It's just the unmitigated practice of capitalism on it's quest for the "holy grail".. FREE labor. Not overworked, underpaid.. mistreated.. just free- and it will have it if it can, even at the public costs in terms of welfare, subsidies, tax breaks..

or even labor that pays for the "priviledge" to be there..

the "real" problem with China is.. EVENTUALLY, they will pull out operations for greener pastures.. and what will they leave behind.. basically a destroyed way of life.. it may have been bad before, but the worst is yet to come- they'll leave behind parched lands, unusable water- they won't be able to use it to irrigate farms..

or even climate change that would circumvent any form of agriculture to begin with.

[Ham]

and industrialists goods are stained with blood. At least one chinese government official took the blame for an environmental release of tons of benzene and equally nasty stuff in the Songhua river..

basically because the China power company was operating on a shoestring.. didn't have enough infrastructure built to circumvent it..

cheap power. that's what fuels a lot of this insanity.. and one official paid for it with his life..

that's what an "official" is there for.. when something goes wrong..

Edited November 18, 2008 by Ham

[Ham]

It starts back here, but not with the guy who walks into wallyworld.

Maybe if we actually taxed imports the way the rest of the world taxes the H out of us for our imports to their countries...

We are already seeing things slow down because the fuel to bring it to the US is still prohibitive (we are only in a hiatus right now)

The way I look at it..

government isn't going to enact any kind of tarriff.. on petroleum, durable products.. basically nothing..

the chinese government isn't going to significantly change anything, other than (literally) axe a few scapegoat "officials"..

the ONLY GUY IN THIS SITUATION.. who has ANY kind of power- is the poor palooka who struts into walley world..

it's really pathetic.. but I think that's the way it is..

I fight the bastards fifty eight cents at a time..