Firearms and "church"

[Ham]

I'd just like a little information..

especially if you are aware of any of this regarding the pop meetings, or twi Sunday night services, special limb or region meetings, etc. Corps night at locations would qualify.

Edited November 9, 2008 by Ham

[Ham]

Rock of Ages and larger classes like advanced class and specials would also qualify.

[Sudo]

Ham,

There's a big problem with your poll... there's no box to check on question #2 if someone was unaware of any gun toting. However, if you leave that blank... none of the other questions count. I'd suggest modifying it so that folks (like me) who saw no guns have an option to click.

sudo

[Ham]

Thanks.. I modified it, and it looks like it didn't trash the poll.. last time I modified a poll midstream like this I lost a few contributions..

Edited November 9, 2008 by Ham

[waysider]

I know there were guns in Fellow Laborers. I had one as did many others. Mostly we used them to target practice. There was never really any time to use them to hunt. And, WG has related an incident that involved the limb leader discharging one recklessly. That particular incident, though potentially tragic, was really an example of foolish and capricious handling, not of any malicious intent. I bring this up to draw a distinction between the incidents I cited and the very different subject of your thread.

[Jim]

Never saw a weapon in public, never was aware of anyone carrying.

I did go to one "old boys" meeting in the barn at HQ. Anyone on staff was invited to join the informal shooters club that met in the barn near where VPW's bikes were stored. We could use the makeshift range at one of the outlying Way farms, maybe the Kip farm, and some reloading equipment in the barn.

I have to admit that I was probably responsible for at least 3 believers becoming firearm owners. As I've posted before, I used to be a fairly avid shooter. I grew up around guns and have had weapons training and experience in the military.

[Ham]

I don't have any issues with firearms in general.. my dad taught me how to handle a rifle.. we did some target practice and such.. but he taught me the respect to NEVER point it at anyone, how to walk with it in a non-threatening manner..

I'm thinking more of these mobsters showing up packing heat to what is supposed to be a christian "fellowship"..

during the pop meetings.. what would motivate someone to pack heat, in case something might go "awry"?

I don't want to take John Juedes thread any more off topic..

If I were to ask Juedes how many times he felt he had to "pack heat" to one of his services, the answer would probably be "zero".. and I would even imagine his church does not participate in firearm safety training courses.. etc, etc..

same for any other reputable group..

what made the way different?

what could possibly be in a "minister"'s soul, that he felt compelled to pack heat to a "worship service"?

or a "leadership" meeting, and make sure all present KNEW he was packing.. and would not hesitate to use it..

Or train dogs conditioned to attack.. to protect a sleezeball of a mogster..

I'm sure he wasn't the only one.

[Ham]

It's just.. packing heat to a church meeting? How anybody can think that's "normal" is beyond me..

Was he so desperately paranoid.. that he thought he needed "protection" because devils would jump in people's heads, and move them to kill him?

I kinda agree with excies "evaluation".. he musta been psycho..

[Sudo]

Ham,

Like I was saying earlier.. I never saw or even HEARD about anyone having guns in TWI. But I left around 1987.... before all the paranoia as I understand it happened.

sudo

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Firearms?...You bet! How about the famous "clergy meeting" where Geer pulled out his handgun and laid it on the lecturn next to his bible...or how about B*** L*** when he leveled his gun on several clergy who decided to leave the meeting early...

guns?...this goes back to the Wierwille and Del Duncan days...there was a paramilitary atmosphere among certain of the "highly initiated ones" back in the late 70's and early 80's...

[Brushstroke]

Why would they feel the need to bring firearms into a church service? :huh:

[Ham]

well.. that's what made some way meetings so "special"

it's not JUST a church service.. we're battling devils, to the death ya know.. serious (deluded) business..

the insane part of all this.. some people STILL follow these numbnuts around like they are God in the flesh..

[Ham]

I'm almost suprised we didn't have a Jonestown kind of incident at good ole hq..

with the geer readings.. it sounds like it came close..

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Why would they feel the need to bring firearms into a church service? :huh:

Church service?... Not hardly...These egomaniacs were so absorbed by their delusional concept of their own self importance that they packed guns in order to face the "reality of the adversary's attacks"...

IMHO, they were just a few steps away from a Jim Jones or David Koresh type of incident. I went through the Mal pack training in the 10th corps...these guys were REALLY whacked out.

I recall during that training that lcm told us that he was considering breaking broom sticks in half and giving us each a piece...so that we could kill the guy who was trying to steal our loaf of bread...are you kidding me?

Edited November 9, 2008 by GrouchoMarxJr

[Ham]

and this was supposed to be a "biblical research teaching and fellowship" organization.. i.e. a "bible" group?

it's just kinda hard figuring out what stabbing somebody with a broken broomstick has anything to do with the bible..

must be the "fellowship" part..

Edited November 10, 2008 by Ham

[waysider]

I think VP was afraid the wrong person (ie: father, husband, brother,etc.) would get wise to his sexual antics and take matters into their own hands. Those fears were well founded.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

For these guys at the "top"...(such as lcm), this was like an Indiana Jones movie combined with a little Stephen King. They lived in a make believe world where they were central figures in an epoch scenario...the spiritual fate of the world rested in their hands...

They were the nut cases that screamed and intimidated...and yes, guns eventually found their way into the stronghold of Zion...the place where the highly initiated ones ( nut cases ) stood in the gap...what insanity it was.

[penguin]

Our area had at least one individual in the 90's and 2000's that would pack heat at branch and/or area meetings. Always thought it odd.

[frank123lol]

Lcm said he would take out his hand gun in his house,and act as if someone had "invaded" his house.

Practice ya know,so he would be "ready".

[potato]

I never saw a gun in a meeting, but we were all expected to own one and know how to shoot it, and preferably to carry it legally in our vehicles (i.e. with ammo in separate area, unloaded and safety on) when traveling in case of civil unrest or natural disaster.

[Ham]

The organization was hardly what it advertised to be.. a nice bible teaching group..

"wanna have fun? woncha come to twig with me..."

we were following lunatics.. at least at the top..

lunatics packing heat..

[geisha779]

I think VP was afraid the wrong person (ie: father, husband, brother,etc.) would get wise to his sexual antics and take matters into their own hands. Those fears were well founded.

Oh My Gosh!! That really does make the most sense!! I never thought of that, but other than his bloated sense of self-importance--that really seems spot on!

[Ham]

Looks like several voted on the bodyguard.. now why would a mild mannered, benevolent mogster type need a body guard, at CHURCH?

Some people might not like that term, especially the guy who started the thing.. but twi- wasn't it supposed to be just another CHURCH? At least by strict definition..

I haven't met any mainstream minister who needs a bodyguard close by to "protect his back" while he's "moving da word"..

or a guy in a ministerial association, who relied on displaying a handgun, along with a goon leveling a firearm at other clergy to demand "respect"..

pretty surreal thought, now, isn't it?

[Ham]

and to those who still follow him, take his classes.. revere his teachings.. and give him money.. I ask, why?

do you agree with him that this is actually a NORMAL thing to do, and actually appropriate?

"extreme times require extreme measures".. really?

maybe extreme paranoia..

[Ham]

"well.. it was justified.. so da WORD could *live*.."

is that so?

give me ONE SINGLE CONTRIBUTION all of this has given to society.. other than a few arcane, little known teachings..

other than another raging sycophant with a rather limited audience.. there is basically nothing to show, after twenty five or more years..