Oak, there are enough debt threads already Perhaps you might like to revive one of those - give a bigger history, including from some who no longer post here.
ClayJay, didn't realize it was so long ago.
Unfortunately I was in rez in the early 90s.
It was horrible.
I mean, LCM and his tirades were horrible. And the atmosphere was oppressive.
But I met some fine God-hearted people, most of whom got kicked out or crushed.
When I got out, I did do my best but I also know I was too hard on some people, not intending to be mean, but "tough love" - even though that really cut across the grain for me. Because "tough love" was how I'd learned "to receive." I'm still looking for some people, to apologize.
Here's some food for thought, maybe. I personally never held a position higher than a twig coordinator. It's easy for me, sometimes, to point fingers at those who held those higher positions and list their offenses. From that I can derive a great feeling of self-righteousness. If I get honest with myself, though, I realize that my heart wasn't much different. The only difference between me and some of these abusive leaders, quite frankly, is opportunity and sphere of influence. I sure wanted to climb that corporate ladder, though!
I'm not sure what you mean by that but I think you may mean that "I am down" meaning "I am ready for", or "am willing to" be involved with the struggle to "get my life right".
I believe you when you say you're no longer struggling with TWI stuff. I was referring more to the stuff we all struggle with day to day in trying to be the best we can be, and to make a positive contribution to others while we're here. I appreciate your good wishes in my journey. I still struggle with some TWI things like you said, having just recently discovered stuff. It's a necessary step I think and I won't stay here forever, at least I hope not. Our TWI backgrounds are similar as far as the timeframe and length of time. I'm definitely a city boy, though. I lived in Northern Idaho for awhile and just loved it. I figure the only place more beautiful than Northern Idaho is probably Alaska.
Lots of strange people in Northern Idaho, though. The HQ for the Aryan Nations is there. Not that kind of people to sit down and have a friendly "chat", unless you have an uzzi and a couple of hand grenades. Maybe some tear gas.
Thanks Broken Arrow. And, I wish you all Godspeed in your recovery. But one thing I will say. I remember the old "If you walk away from this ministry you will die!" line of thinking. I never told anyone that, but I remember it being something from the mouth of Martindale and I always had a hard time with it. And, the day we got the boot (which I knew was coming because of my "insubordination"), I knew that that threat of death if I walked away was pure and unadulterated bull..... When I put the salt to my lips, I made a commitment to God and "It Is Written", not to any daggone ministry. I may not have carried out my commitment all the time but I tried. But when it was evident that "It Is Written" was far and away from the standard of The Way at that time and forever afterward, I (we-my wife and I) had no fear because of our new "non-involvement/walked away" status. We really did become involved at first because we wanted to help people with what we believed was God's Word. But the "Tractor Beam" was drawing us in though, and when we saw it, we made up our minds that it was time to go. My over all point is, please please please you all, who were indoctrinated with the "if you walk away you will die" mentality, DO NOT EVEN GIVE IT A SECOND THOUGHT! You are fine! You are now in the bright sunlight! God's promises are in fact yeah and amen! And He will love you and protect you all the days of your life, so fear not and cast that evil doctrine into the sewage ditch, and.....Fuggedaboudit! Love you all!
I remember the old "If you walk away from this ministry you will die!" line of thinking. I never told anyone that, but I remember it being something from the mouth of Martindale and I always had a hard time with it. And, the day we got the boot (which I knew was coming because of my "insubordination"), I knew that that threat of death if I walked away was pure and unadulterated bull.....
Actually, it was a curse and a fear tactic and downright devilish. (I realize "devilish" carries some TWI connotations here, but that word is befitting in this case).
My over all point is, please please please you all, who were indoctrinated with the "if you walk away you will die" mentality, DO NOT EVEN GIVE IT A SECOND THOUGHT! You are fine! You are now in the bright sunlight! God's promises are in fact yeah and amen! And He will love you and protect you all the days of your life, so fear not and cast that evil doctrine into the sewage ditch, and.....Fuggedaboudit! Love you all!
i can't believe about making the ministry look bad if you died on grounds
like the ministry doesn't look bad with people living in trailers on grounds. if someone died there they would at least have some excitement instead of a bunch of bored robots walking around.
I was pretty speechless myself. No "are you feeling better?" or "Thank God your husband got you to the ER when he did." Just, "you would make the ministry look bad."
And this guy's wife was the one who changed the subject every time I had told her I didn't feel well and needed to know if she knew a good doctor in the area. She was just sooooo spiritual, I figured if I needed a doctor God would tell her to quit interrupting me with stories of how perfect her children were and give me the name of a physician. Unfortunately, she was just a self-absorbed idiot who built herself up by tearing me down.
Keep in mind, this all happened after we had left FWC and I had been told we were failures because I was insufficiently under my husband's subjection and not nearly as submissive as I should be. So pile a chronic disease on top of that little tidbit of information, and I was ready to be hanged, drawn, racked and quartered for my sin.
In September, 1994, shortly after the ROA, LCM opens a Sunday night tape with another portentous statement: "If you have chronic disease in your life, it is because you have chronic sin in your life." I knew he meant me, as well as the other dozen or so ROA attenders who ended up in the ER with diabetes complications. I was mortified. I still have trouble believing God still gives a rat's nose about me.
TWI is not the only religious organization that teaches this, however. I've had plenty of experience with this dumb-butt doctrine and I will lob rocks at it until it crumbles in my own life and anyone else's who is afflicted by this BS.
In regard to the title of this thread, I doubt if either of these folks or any of their four perfect, now mostly grown children ever look at GSC. If they do, they will know who I am and can apologize publicly or privately.
In September, 1994, shortly after the ROA, LCM opens a Sunday night tape with another portentous statement: "If you have chronic disease in your life, it is because you have chronic sin in your life." I knew he meant me, as well as the other dozen or so ROA attenders who ended up in the ER with diabetes complications. I was mortified. I still have trouble believing God still gives a rat's nose about me.
I had been out quite a while by 1994 because my son was born (free) in 1994
look, martindale had chronic sin in his life and chronic f'd-upness !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
these nutcases have a disease of the soul damn it
oh dear WG, no wonder you have trouble believing god gives a rat's a-s-s about you, but he surely does
i pray for you in my simple no-way-brain that he can somehow show you his love for you his baby girl
And I about yours, Exxie. Look, we both have visited the brook Cherith and were sustained, and came out stronger than before. We are survivors. We will not allow these bastards to define us.
I think about those trials when before the convicted killer is sentenced, the victim's relatives have a chance to tell him and the whole court what hurt he caused. Maybe it'll be like that. Maybe you'll get to stand before the Judge of Judges and tell all the saints what hurt, what harm, what theft of innocence occurred.
Agreed. I think after awhile denial becomes their their only option. Who would possibly want to admit they have spent their entire adult life hurting others on a routine basis?
This is why I don't buy into the positive thinking bull permeating our culture. Have you ever notice the ones that sell this schtick are the most negative people you can find. Denial is more than a river in Egypt. In order to be positive, you have to create a shadow personality for the negative self. Everybody else sees and hears it. But that shadow personality can't penetrate the positve filter.
I mean I always laugh at the people that tell me to be positive. Usually what they're really saying is be my patsy. Check out how much positive thinking really exists in this culture. Apply for a job, they're not looking at you and saying "S/he can handle it" they're looking for reasons to check you off the list. Approach a potential romantic partner, they're not saying, "S/he will make me happy." They're looking for reasons to reject you. Come up for a raise, they're not looking at all you positive qualities, they're looking for negative qualities so they can fudge on it as much as the can.
...I almost wonder if a certain minority of individuals who were attracted to the concept of being leaders weren't a bit on the sociopathic side...
I think this is very true. My experiences seem to be a bit different than most accounts I've read here in that it wasn't the higher leadership who were most abusive during my stint in TWI, but the lower leaders and the members. The branch coordinator was a wimp. He stood back and let others do the "confronting", while he nervously hovered in the background. The household coordinator was a little dictator, and he was aided and abetted by one of the couples, the wife of which seemed to be the real power in the household. Anything the nasty old biddy said was accepted without question. The husband desperately tried to posture like he was wearing the pants in the family in accordance with TWI doctrine. The household joes constantly blathered about how "the Word is not always nice" and "everything is not always pleasant", until they started reminding me of Himmler's speech to the SS about the need to be "hard". Indeed, my former Household leaders had more than a passing resemblance to Brownshirts. The Household leadership and witch-behind-the-throne had more than a few sociopathic traits too. They lacked any sort of empathy for anyone. They believed THEY were the sole arbiters of right and wrong. They expected everyone to obey them without question. They were cowards as well, only saying anything when gang was standing behind them.
I lived in the Sofla area for eight years after I bailed out of TWI, and certainly never expected anyone to ever come forth with anything even hinting of regret, much less an apology. I was not wrong. About a year after I split from TWI, I ran into the girl who introduced me to TWI, and who had stood and let the Household Hitler scream and yell (literally) without saying a word. Amazingly, she looked as if she actually expected me to dash over to her and gallantly bow with all smiles. I purposefully waited to see if she would approach me with anything like remorse, but of course it didn't happen.
My guess is that the odds of getting an apology out of anyone still active in TWI are slim to none, and slim just walked out the door! This is just more evidence that leaving was the right thing to do.
About a year after I split from TWI, I ran into the girl who introduced me to TWI, and who had stood and let the Household Hitler scream and yell (literally) without saying a word. Amazingly, she looked as if she actually expected me to dash over to her and gallantly bow with all smiles. I purposefully waited to see if she would approach me with anything like remorse, but of course it didn't happen.
My guess is that the odds of getting an apology out of anyone still active in TWI are slim to none, and slim just walked out the door! This is just more evidence that leaving was the right thing to do.
Funny running into old TWI people. Some are human beings and all right. Others are a waste of human life - have the same dumb-@$$ smugness they always had. And TWI leadership is so spiritually blind they cannot see the difference. And most of them are in the second category.
I almost wonder if a certain minority of individuals who were attracted to the concept of being leaders weren't a bit on the sociopathic side. WG
Whether or not they're unhealthy, I think that certain types are definitely attracted to leadership. I used to mention personality sometimes, when trying to explain some person-person issue, and my "elders" would usually dismiss that idea - we were supposed to love everyone, listen to everyone, we all have the same spirit etc. That didn't convince me that personality doesn't matter, especially when it came to the verses that people would latch onto and use to teach/confront other types.
Confronting - that reminds me of when a Bigwig from HQ told a group of European men that they were wimps. I sort of admired this person but it bothered me, of course, and was one of those things that I put away for pondering. Later I decided that it was just that he was one of those energetic, forceful people who expects others to want to be like that.
That "slim just walked out the door" made me laugh too - must remember that.
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oenophile
Ah yes, the Nuremburg defense.
finallyunderstand
At one point, I was under so much pressure and fear from leadership. I would try to live up to their list of demands and it was exhausting. No matter how many people I signed up for the class or bro
Nottawayfer
My first WOW Family Coordinator contacted me and apologized for his actions during our short tenure together (about 4 months of hell with an alcoholic). He was kicked off the WOW Field and out of the
Twinky
Oak, there are enough debt threads already Perhaps you might like to revive one of those - give a bigger history, including from some who no longer post here.
ClayJay, didn't realize it was so long ago.
It was horrible.
I mean, LCM and his tirades were horrible. And the atmosphere was oppressive.
But I met some fine God-hearted people, most of whom got kicked out or crushed.
When I got out, I did do my best but I also know I was too hard on some people, not intending to be mean, but "tough love" - even though that really cut across the grain for me. Because "tough love" was how I'd learned "to receive." I'm still looking for some people, to apologize.
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smarter
Broken Arrow gets it.
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Broken Arrow
I believe you when you say you're no longer struggling with TWI stuff. I was referring more to the stuff we all struggle with day to day in trying to be the best we can be, and to make a positive contribution to others while we're here. I appreciate your good wishes in my journey. I still struggle with some TWI things like you said, having just recently discovered stuff. It's a necessary step I think and I won't stay here forever, at least I hope not. Our TWI backgrounds are similar as far as the timeframe and length of time. I'm definitely a city boy, though. I lived in Northern Idaho for awhile and just loved it. I figure the only place more beautiful than Northern Idaho is probably Alaska.
Lots of strange people in Northern Idaho, though. The HQ for the Aryan Nations is there. Not that kind of people to sit down and have a friendly "chat", unless you have an uzzi and a couple of hand grenades. Maybe some tear gas.
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ClayJay
Thanks Broken Arrow. And, I wish you all Godspeed in your recovery. But one thing I will say. I remember the old "If you walk away from this ministry you will die!" line of thinking. I never told anyone that, but I remember it being something from the mouth of Martindale and I always had a hard time with it. And, the day we got the boot (which I knew was coming because of my "insubordination"), I knew that that threat of death if I walked away was pure and unadulterated bull..... When I put the salt to my lips, I made a commitment to God and "It Is Written", not to any daggone ministry. I may not have carried out my commitment all the time but I tried. But when it was evident that "It Is Written" was far and away from the standard of The Way at that time and forever afterward, I (we-my wife and I) had no fear because of our new "non-involvement/walked away" status. We really did become involved at first because we wanted to help people with what we believed was God's Word. But the "Tractor Beam" was drawing us in though, and when we saw it, we made up our minds that it was time to go. My over all point is, please please please you all, who were indoctrinated with the "if you walk away you will die" mentality, DO NOT EVEN GIVE IT A SECOND THOUGHT! You are fine! You are now in the bright sunlight! God's promises are in fact yeah and amen! And He will love you and protect you all the days of your life, so fear not and cast that evil doctrine into the sewage ditch, and.....Fuggedaboudit! Love you all!
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Ham
soo.. what does one do when the "hurters" just open shop somewhere else? Praying to gawd(?) that nobody knows who they really are, or were..
http://sowersonline.com/default.aspx
*they* actually consider the kind of documentation here *good*. i.e. free advertising..
the only thing I wonder about is.. whatever came of what's his name's daughter.. involved in da organization..
you know. The dumbass who continued trespassing on way property, thinking it was holy ground or something..
that says a lot, doesn't it?
fame of da word.. to the extent that somebody is straining and can't remember your name.. pathetic..
"uncle mac".. Ha.
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excathedra
that was admirable -- your story -- clay
there are so many hurtful accounts on here. i can't believe about making the ministry look bad if you died on grounds --- i'm speechless
so many hurts. how screwed up were they !!!! and me for buying into it for a while
i'm glad i'm not a wayfer. i felt sick through many of these ordeals, but somehow i talked myself into / out of.....
i'm older A LOT older damn it and wiser :)
i wouldn't give a splinter the time of day
i also feel very sad and sometimes mad about some non-splinter "leaders" who think they are god's chosen elect
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Broken Arrow
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chockfull
like the ministry doesn't look bad with people living in trailers on grounds. if someone died there they would at least have some excitement instead of a bunch of bored robots walking around.
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Watered Garden
I was pretty speechless myself. No "are you feeling better?" or "Thank God your husband got you to the ER when he did." Just, "you would make the ministry look bad."
And this guy's wife was the one who changed the subject every time I had told her I didn't feel well and needed to know if she knew a good doctor in the area. She was just sooooo spiritual, I figured if I needed a doctor God would tell her to quit interrupting me with stories of how perfect her children were and give me the name of a physician. Unfortunately, she was just a self-absorbed idiot who built herself up by tearing me down.
Keep in mind, this all happened after we had left FWC and I had been told we were failures because I was insufficiently under my husband's subjection and not nearly as submissive as I should be. So pile a chronic disease on top of that little tidbit of information, and I was ready to be hanged, drawn, racked and quartered for my sin.
In September, 1994, shortly after the ROA, LCM opens a Sunday night tape with another portentous statement: "If you have chronic disease in your life, it is because you have chronic sin in your life." I knew he meant me, as well as the other dozen or so ROA attenders who ended up in the ER with diabetes complications. I was mortified. I still have trouble believing God still gives a rat's nose about me.
TWI is not the only religious organization that teaches this, however. I've had plenty of experience with this dumb-butt doctrine and I will lob rocks at it until it crumbles in my own life and anyone else's who is afflicted by this BS.
In regard to the title of this thread, I doubt if either of these folks or any of their four perfect, now mostly grown children ever look at GSC. If they do, they will know who I am and can apologize publicly or privately.
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excathedra
I had been out quite a while by 1994 because my son was born (free) in 1994
look, martindale had chronic sin in his life and chronic f'd-upness !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
these nutcases have a disease of the soul damn it
oh dear WG, no wonder you have trouble believing god gives a rat's a-s-s about you, but he surely does
i pray for you in my simple no-way-brain that he can somehow show you his love for you his baby girl
i'm so sorry
i'm so sick about your experiences
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Watered Garden
And I about yours, Exxie. Look, we both have visited the brook Cherith and were sustained, and came out stronger than before. We are survivors. We will not allow these bastards to define us.
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excathedra
very true you are right WG
when i think about him telling me i needed a real man of god to heal me from sexual abuse, i could almost faint or fall of the chair laughing
but back then i was young and a victim waiting to be VICtimized lol
no more
i'm good
maybe someday our dear lord will give me a chance to spit (sowwy)
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Watered Garden
I think about those trials when before the convicted killer is sentenced, the victim's relatives have a chance to tell him and the whole court what hurt he caused. Maybe it'll be like that. Maybe you'll get to stand before the Judge of Judges and tell all the saints what hurt, what harm, what theft of innocence occurred.
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OldSkool
Sowers gives me the creeps.
There, some free advertising for ya.
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Ham
I'm surprised rocky hasn't weighed in on this (yet once again..)
the whole "problem" with da sowers thingy.. I was invited. No, not by the now whoever is in charge, but gramps.
No strangers at "da way"..
is it "da way" or isn't it?
new name, different farm..
weather perhaps slightly more hospitable in February..
oh yeah.. not to mention one of the "keeds" sold his soul to me for a tank of gas..
so I was invited. Are you going to attempt to pull in the welcome mat at this late date?
there are more than a few reasons your "prayers" haven't done much to change the situation here..
yeah.. I know the "drill"..
why didn't it work..
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Ham
the sad thing here.. I am the best friend that they possibly could have..
and they will never figure it out..
I shouldn't say never.. pigs can fly. It's happened before..
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Ham
maybe they'll take a lesson from gramps. Invite me to speak at their advanced class..
so interesting..
gramps and Arthur Ford were friends..
bizarre..
Ha! that was it. The Superman world where nothing was where it belonged.. Bizarro..
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Gen-2
Would you feel better if it was
Apple's Way
&
The Apple Corps?
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Ham
Ha!
At least apple cores have a possibility of actually producing something..
ah yes.. was it a meeting in Greenville Michigan? Many years ago..
Free apples for the eating..
the instructions were for the most part.. "screw the cores into the ground.. one out of four of them will germinate.."..
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So_crates
This is why I don't buy into the positive thinking bull permeating our culture. Have you ever notice the ones that sell this schtick are the most negative people you can find. Denial is more than a river in Egypt. In order to be positive, you have to create a shadow personality for the negative self. Everybody else sees and hears it. But that shadow personality can't penetrate the positve filter.
I mean I always laugh at the people that tell me to be positive. Usually what they're really saying is be my patsy. Check out how much positive thinking really exists in this culture. Apply for a job, they're not looking at you and saying "S/he can handle it" they're looking for reasons to check you off the list. Approach a potential romantic partner, they're not saying, "S/he will make me happy." They're looking for reasons to reject you. Come up for a raise, they're not looking at all you positive qualities, they're looking for negative qualities so they can fudge on it as much as the can.
SoCrates
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DocHoliday
I think this is very true. My experiences seem to be a bit different than most accounts I've read here in that it wasn't the higher leadership who were most abusive during my stint in TWI, but the lower leaders and the members. The branch coordinator was a wimp. He stood back and let others do the "confronting", while he nervously hovered in the background. The household coordinator was a little dictator, and he was aided and abetted by one of the couples, the wife of which seemed to be the real power in the household. Anything the nasty old biddy said was accepted without question. The husband desperately tried to posture like he was wearing the pants in the family in accordance with TWI doctrine. The household joes constantly blathered about how "the Word is not always nice" and "everything is not always pleasant", until they started reminding me of Himmler's speech to the SS about the need to be "hard". Indeed, my former Household leaders had more than a passing resemblance to Brownshirts. The Household leadership and witch-behind-the-throne had more than a few sociopathic traits too. They lacked any sort of empathy for anyone. They believed THEY were the sole arbiters of right and wrong. They expected everyone to obey them without question. They were cowards as well, only saying anything when gang was standing behind them.
I lived in the Sofla area for eight years after I bailed out of TWI, and certainly never expected anyone to ever come forth with anything even hinting of regret, much less an apology. I was not wrong. About a year after I split from TWI, I ran into the girl who introduced me to TWI, and who had stood and let the Household Hitler scream and yell (literally) without saying a word. Amazingly, she looked as if she actually expected me to dash over to her and gallantly bow with all smiles. I purposefully waited to see if she would approach me with anything like remorse, but of course it didn't happen.
My guess is that the odds of getting an apology out of anyone still active in TWI are slim to none, and slim just walked out the door! This is just more evidence that leaving was the right thing to do.
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waysider
slim just walked out the door!
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chockfull
Funny running into old TWI people. Some are human beings and all right. Others are a waste of human life - have the same dumb-@$$ smugness they always had. And TWI leadership is so spiritually blind they cannot see the difference. And most of them are in the second category.
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cara
Whether or not they're unhealthy, I think that certain types are definitely attracted to leadership. I used to mention personality sometimes, when trying to explain some person-person issue, and my "elders" would usually dismiss that idea - we were supposed to love everyone, listen to everyone, we all have the same spirit etc. That didn't convince me that personality doesn't matter, especially when it came to the verses that people would latch onto and use to teach/confront other types.
Confronting - that reminds me of when a Bigwig from HQ told a group of European men that they were wimps. I sort of admired this person but it bothered me, of course, and was one of those things that I put away for pondering. Later I decided that it was just that he was one of those energetic, forceful people who expects others to want to be like that.
That "slim just walked out the door" made me laugh too - must remember that.
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