any of the former "hurters" that graced our presence didn't come to apologize, but to try to call people back to more abuse.. jl in particular.. "leaked" a couple of drive-by posts..
and that's about it.. that I can remember.
I think most of the "hurters" are too busy trying to build offshoots and resurrect "the way it was"..
I wrote to Pa*l M*squeda and he didn't even remember me or how he destroyed us. I had heard that he made it a point to apologize to those he had hurt, but he didn't even pretend to care when he wrote me back. It was insulting.
I have had conversations with several ex "fellow believers" that were very rewarding as we both apologized for being stupid and hurting each other at different times.
But, without exception, when I have encountered past leadership (at any level) they have done all the things mentioned above: 1) couldn't remember doing the bad deed 2) didn't apologize for the harm done 3) blamed someone higher on the food chain than themselves
I have heard of a few exceptions (Jeff M@hn, Raph D) but even though I knew them both neither of them did me any harm in the first place, so I can't vouch personally.
I am sorry to hear Paul M. didn't live up to a higher standard...
since I went out wow and completed my apprentice corpse year during the lcm reign of terror, and was married to a moglet wannabe, I most certainly hurt people. because I followed directives, there is no way my hands are clean.
to what extent, I don't know. it makes me sad to think of some of the things I said to people in the name of the "ministry". to anyone I hurt, I am truly sorry. I won't list names and I can't list mine, so sadly personal apologies are probably out of the question, but I would if I could.
an ex-corpse couple apologized to me once. so did a joe-blow believer for thinking evil of me after my ex destroyed my rep. they were the only ones.
One of the hallmarks of a Wierwille sychophant is arrogance. It was palpable in every action. I don't believe it just vanishes without some humbling from up above.
Seems an apology would require some cognizance of wrong behavior. From the volume of offshoots taking their rightful place in the Kingdom of Cults--the ones who did the most damage are busy and an apology seems unlikely.
I am sure there are those who have understood the pain caused--probably the ones who had an actual conscience going in and managed to keep a semblance of it until leaving.
The ones who strived not to destroy others. I know many here have grieved behavior, as have I. . . . But
as for the "Big Shots"--I am not holding my breath.
In a couple of cases I actually sought the person out to see what they had to say, but without exception they blamed the organization and would take no responsibility for what came out of their mouths.
Many, many years ago after my self-confidence was shattered by T*m J*nk*ns*n during a block at Gunnison and I left the Corps six weeks shy of graduation, I called him (he was still "in" at Emporia then, sufffering from the shock of POP) I wrote him and he had NO recollection of what he might have done, but did call, I believe, to say he was sorry (this would have been 1986).
When a friend of mine asked for that same consideration from him in the early years of THIS decade, the silence was deafening.
Same goes with W*r*e*n "Barney" B*rn*a*t ... (my 10th Corps WOW Coordinator) total silence, even when asked if we could put hard feelings behind us, as Ephesians 4:32 mandates ... I guess he just decided that part of the Bible didn't apply to him in his new Geerite group.
But, without exception, when I have encountered past leadership (at any level) they have done all the things mentioned above: 1) couldn't remember doing the bad deed 2) didn't apologize for the harm done 3) blamed someone higher on the food chain than themselves
interesting.. makes me wonder how one could merely forget..
I can't exactly forget the mean spirited ugly things I did.. and they are only a handful..
maybe after a point of ugliness, people just turn off their conscience.. maybe it's a coping mechanism, I dunno..
interesting.. makes me wonder how one could merely forget..
I can't exactly forget the mean spirited ugly things I did.. and they are only a handful..
maybe after a point of ugliness, people just turn off their conscience.. maybe it's a coping mechanism, I dunno..
I think it could be either. but if someone on staff calls enough people "dangerous with brains as full of holes as swiss cheese", maybe they just forget who've they've told that and who they haven't, so their claim of forgetting is not the act itself, just the who where when?
Perhaps.. or from the sheer numbers of people they casually "confronted", defamed, declared "possessed".. they honestly just can't remember.. you're just another face in the crowd, and they can't quite recognize you..
I think one sign of healing if you've been abused is that you come to grips with the fact that the abuser may never change - but you can move on. That is very empowering.
I've not been in a 12 step program but I believe one of the steps is to make amends to people - but they say to do it in a way that won't make their life worse. So sometimes that means not getting in touch with them.
Many people leave the way but join a splinter group that teaches much the same thing about power and abuse (maybe not sex abuse but emotional). So if you were hurt by them, obviously you won't get much satisfaction.
I'd feel weird if someone from the past who I was not currently communicating with reached out just to say sorry. I'd think they were doing it for themselves not really for me. But my level of being hurt in the way was minor compared to some of the stories I've learned about.
I didn't abuse anyone sexually and I tried not to be an .... with my position while I was in. But I'm sure I lead people astray and did hurt them. As I've bumped into people here in the "afterlife" I have apologized at times and often it was met with "No, what you did saved my life" or some other form of disconnect. I don't always know how to take this.
interesting.. makes me wonder how one could merely forget..
I can't exactly forget the mean spirited ugly things I did.. and they are only a handful..
maybe after a point of ugliness, people just turn off their conscience.. maybe it's a coping mechanism, I dunno..
Personally, I think they were so deeply into what twi taught them, and in some cases so naturally arrogant, they didn't perceive they were doing any harm at the time, so they are just not going to remember it in the kind of detail those of us on the receiving end will retain.
In my case, I had the opportunity to explain in detail what was done, by whom, and the disastrous results... that's when I got the "well, we were just following orders" routine. Really??? Well, I guess that makes it okay then, right?
I know a lot of the hurt I inflicted on others came from direct orders from my higher-ups, but I have eagerly apologized for my actions whenever the chance has presented itself. Even if I've hurt someone and not realized it, if they came to me and explained how I had hurt them, I've apologized. Not to do so just shows me someone STILL doesn't think they really did anything wrong (or in some cases that they are even capable of doing something wrong) and therefore they aren't really sorry.
well what's really sinister is when they go on to start it all over again.. never grew a conscience to begin with..
they have whole classes to learn how to excercise godlessness.. like the momentus "experience".. kill the victim and all.. pillow beatining and the throw your neighbor off the lifeboat simulation..
what have they learned, how have they changed?
myself- I've learned some of my own conditioned behavior, and it really BOTHERS me.. it's just not the way to treat another human being for ANY reason.. sure, it was taught- but on the basic human level I really should have known better.
I can't imagine someone waking up with a conscience in regards to several hundred atrocities against their neighbors..
.. sure, it was taught- but on the basic human level I really should have known better.
I can't imagine someone waking up with a conscience in regards to several hundred atrocities against their neighbors..
Agreed. I think after awhile denial becomes their their only option. Who would possibly want to admit they have spent their entire adult life hurting others on a routine basis?
At one point, I was under so much pressure and fear from leadership. I would try to live up to their list of demands and it was exhausting. No matter how many people I signed up for the class or brought to twig or cleaned their houses, I was usually pulled aside to be told where I had missed it. I spent all of my time trying to be in the good graces of leadership. I did not take care of myself physically, mentally, emotionally, mentally, spiritually or financially. I was a complete mess.
Even so, I was not very proud of myself when I came to the realization about my behavior. I could have had some great friendships with some wonderful believers, but I rejected them in favor of pleasing leadership who really never cared about me. But what was worse, I was really harsh on a couple of people. They were going through some tough times and I basically told them it was because they weren't renewing their minds. I was also suspicious of the "commitment level" of one of them and told leadership this. They in turn confronted her about her commitment level amongst other things, and she was subjected to a face melting in front of several people. That's what she got for comming to me for help. Some friend I was.
When I finally saw what I had become, I felt really guilty about it. I apologized prufusely to the first person, and we are still friends to this day. But the other one had moved away from our city (wise move on her part) so I let that be my rational for not contacting her. But the truth was, I was afraid to talk to her. Every now and then I would see her at a ministry event. I would notice her tense up when she saw me comming towards her so I would chicken out and we would exchange phony pleasantries with each other. I still remember her tight smile and the steelness in her voice.
Well, a beautiful thing happened. She got healed without any help from me. I saw her one day and she went out of her way to come talk to me. She was so loving and kind towards me. I could tell it was important to her to let me know she was OK and that she loved and forgave me. Then I was healed too. This lovely beautiful woman is the one who fixed it for us when nobody would have blamed her if she resented me forever.
I try really hard to get my kids to understand the power of forgiveness, especially now that they tend to get caught up in all the high school dramas that go on in this city. (Too bad it couldn't be a High School Musical, oh well...) I hope one day they will see that even if they have been hurt by someone, that person does not have power over them. They can get healed and be happy even without appropriate acknowledgement from the offender. But I also tell them to be the first to apologize and try to make things right. If I had been a bigger person, this wonderful lady probably could have healed much sooner. I'm thankful she was a better person than I was and for the gift she gave me.
Perhaps.. or from the sheer numbers of people they casually "confronted", defamed, declared "possessed".. they honestly just can't remember.. you're just another face in the crowd, and they can't quite recognize you..
Several years ago; don't remember whether it was on Waydale or the early days of GS, I got a query/conditional apology from one of our fine posters who recalled that he had been an SOB or equivalent at times to some people in the corps. At the time I said not needed because nothing stood out on the moment, but "on further review", or reflection, I did remember he had been less than kind (I think the word he used was "mean") a couple times. I never thought it was important enough to correct myself to him because he has certainly been one fine fellow here over the years.
I think it is perfectly acceptable and appropriate to be outraged by some of these people's behaviors!!!
At what point did outrage become the wrong emotion to feel?
Now, what you choose to do with your outrage is a separate issue, but to have it in the first place is nothing more or less (in my humble opinion) than righteous anger...
I think that anger in these cases is natural. but one of my favorite stories came from Cory Tenboom concerning how she dealt with one of the Nazi guards who abused her and her sister in a Nazi prison camp. She was running a place to help victims heal and all of the sudden in walked a man who she recognized as one of her abusers. If I recall right it was obvious to Cory that this man was distraught by his actions and came to this place of healing as part of his recover for him BEING AN ABUSER.
When Cory saw him she knew that she didn't have the strength to forgive him, but prayed to the Lord that if HE WANTED HER TO FORGIVE HIM that He would give her the strength to do just that.
To make a longer story short..... she forgave him and credited the Lord with being able to do it.
I think that perhaps it might have healed the former Nazi guard more than it helped even Cory heal.
What I like about the Tenboom sharing (It was published but I don't remember the book's name.) was that the former Nazi guard was in a place of despair where the implications of his actions was hitting him pretty hard. I think that it is easier to see why a man in despair would consider being forgiven a gift from God. Who knows what he might have done to himself if it hadn't happened.
It doesn't look like many former abusers from TWI leadership will ever be worthy of receiving this gift to me though.
First off, there is a steady history of lying about it all. Speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their consciences seared with a hot iron.
Secondly, apparently most of think that they deserve to be forgiven, they're leadership and God owes it to them. Let nobody like that think that they will receive forgiveness from the Lord!!!
Thirdly, a lot of their souls have been twisted by the TWI game of playing with these things in order to simply BE THE BIG DOG. They only use people's sins to put them down and cannot be honest for fear of being treated like they've treated many.
GEE, other than these few things and many other things I'm sure, they are just a swell group of folks....gaaack!
(added in editing)
The folks that anger me are the ones who demand forgiveness from TWI victims right here at the greasespot. Where could their heads be.... let me think.... maybe they just want TWI victims to shut up. Sorry dudes and dudettes, I think that it's still time to shout Wierwille and companies sins from the rooftops... IT IS WRITTEN.
THEY HAVE NOT CHANGED, LET THE WHOLE WORLD SEE THEM FOR WHAT THEY WERE. It still might help save a few of them.
That's my opinion, but I'm not anticipating much in the way of changing it coming down the pike.
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oenophile
Ah yes, the Nuremburg defense.
finallyunderstand
At one point, I was under so much pressure and fear from leadership. I would try to live up to their list of demands and it was exhausting. No matter how many people I signed up for the class or bro
Nottawayfer
My first WOW Family Coordinator contacted me and apologized for his actions during our short tenure together (about 4 months of hell with an alcoholic). He was kicked off the WOW Field and out of the
Ham
the silence is deafening, is it not..
any of the former "hurters" that graced our presence didn't come to apologize, but to try to call people back to more abuse.. jl in particular.. "leaked" a couple of drive-by posts..
and that's about it.. that I can remember.
I think most of the "hurters" are too busy trying to build offshoots and resurrect "the way it was"..
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bowtwi
I wrote to Pa*l M*squeda and he didn't even remember me or how he destroyed us. I had heard that he made it a point to apologize to those he had hurt, but he didn't even pretend to care when he wrote me back. It was insulting.
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TheHighWay
I have had conversations with several ex "fellow believers" that were very rewarding as we both apologized for being stupid and hurting each other at different times.
But, without exception, when I have encountered past leadership (at any level) they have done all the things mentioned above: 1) couldn't remember doing the bad deed 2) didn't apologize for the harm done 3) blamed someone higher on the food chain than themselves
I have heard of a few exceptions (Jeff M@hn, Raph D) but even though I knew them both neither of them did me any harm in the first place, so I can't vouch personally.
I am sorry to hear Paul M. didn't live up to a higher standard...
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potato
since I went out wow and completed my apprentice corpse year during the lcm reign of terror, and was married to a moglet wannabe, I most certainly hurt people. because I followed directives, there is no way my hands are clean.
to what extent, I don't know. it makes me sad to think of some of the things I said to people in the name of the "ministry". to anyone I hurt, I am truly sorry. I won't list names and I can't list mine, so sadly personal apologies are probably out of the question, but I would if I could.
an ex-corpse couple apologized to me once. so did a joe-blow believer for thinking evil of me after my ex destroyed my rep. they were the only ones.
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cheranne
well, I feel we ALL did damage to someone somewhere while we were in The Way,either the people
we were telling about TWI and running classes,friends, family ...I know I did damage to people and
I am sorry.
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geisha779
One of the hallmarks of a Wierwille sychophant is arrogance. It was palpable in every action. I don't believe it just vanishes without some humbling from up above.
Seems an apology would require some cognizance of wrong behavior. From the volume of offshoots taking their rightful place in the Kingdom of Cults--the ones who did the most damage are busy and an apology seems unlikely.
I am sure there are those who have understood the pain caused--probably the ones who had an actual conscience going in and managed to keep a semblance of it until leaving.
The ones who strived not to destroy others. I know many here have grieved behavior, as have I. . . . But
as for the "Big Shots"--I am not holding my breath.
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oenophile
Ah yes, the Nuremburg defense.
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DogLover
Many, many years ago after my self-confidence was shattered by T*m J*nk*ns*n during a block at Gunnison and I left the Corps six weeks shy of graduation, I called him (he was still "in" at Emporia then, sufffering from the shock of POP) I wrote him and he had NO recollection of what he might have done, but did call, I believe, to say he was sorry (this would have been 1986).
When a friend of mine asked for that same consideration from him in the early years of THIS decade, the silence was deafening.
Same goes with W*r*e*n "Barney" B*rn*a*t ... (my 10th Corps WOW Coordinator) total silence, even when asked if we could put hard feelings behind us, as Ephesians 4:32 mandates ... I guess he just decided that part of the Bible didn't apply to him in his new Geerite group.
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Belle
I was never a leader but I did hurt people and have apologized to folks as I come across them.
I have seen some people go to great lengths to apologize to others and, likewise, some arrogant arses who do not even acknowledge their evil.
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Ham
interesting.. makes me wonder how one could merely forget..
I can't exactly forget the mean spirited ugly things I did.. and they are only a handful..
maybe after a point of ugliness, people just turn off their conscience.. maybe it's a coping mechanism, I dunno..
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potato
I think it could be either. but if someone on staff calls enough people "dangerous with brains as full of holes as swiss cheese", maybe they just forget who've they've told that and who they haven't, so their claim of forgetting is not the act itself, just the who where when?
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Ham
Perhaps.. or from the sheer numbers of people they casually "confronted", defamed, declared "possessed".. they honestly just can't remember.. you're just another face in the crowd, and they can't quite recognize you..
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My3Cents
I have several disjointed thoughts on the matter.
I think one sign of healing if you've been abused is that you come to grips with the fact that the abuser may never change - but you can move on. That is very empowering.
I've not been in a 12 step program but I believe one of the steps is to make amends to people - but they say to do it in a way that won't make their life worse. So sometimes that means not getting in touch with them.
Many people leave the way but join a splinter group that teaches much the same thing about power and abuse (maybe not sex abuse but emotional). So if you were hurt by them, obviously you won't get much satisfaction.
I'd feel weird if someone from the past who I was not currently communicating with reached out just to say sorry. I'd think they were doing it for themselves not really for me. But my level of being hurt in the way was minor compared to some of the stories I've learned about.
I didn't abuse anyone sexually and I tried not to be an .... with my position while I was in. But I'm sure I lead people astray and did hurt them. As I've bumped into people here in the "afterlife" I have apologized at times and often it was met with "No, what you did saved my life" or some other form of disconnect. I don't always know how to take this.
So just my 2 cents and one for inflation.
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TheHighWay
Personally, I think they were so deeply into what twi taught them, and in some cases so naturally arrogant, they didn't perceive they were doing any harm at the time, so they are just not going to remember it in the kind of detail those of us on the receiving end will retain.
In my case, I had the opportunity to explain in detail what was done, by whom, and the disastrous results... that's when I got the "well, we were just following orders" routine. Really??? Well, I guess that makes it okay then, right?
I know a lot of the hurt I inflicted on others came from direct orders from my higher-ups, but I have eagerly apologized for my actions whenever the chance has presented itself. Even if I've hurt someone and not realized it, if they came to me and explained how I had hurt them, I've apologized. Not to do so just shows me someone STILL doesn't think they really did anything wrong (or in some cases that they are even capable of doing something wrong) and therefore they aren't really sorry.
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Ham
yeah..
well what's really sinister is when they go on to start it all over again.. never grew a conscience to begin with..
they have whole classes to learn how to excercise godlessness.. like the momentus "experience".. kill the victim and all.. pillow beatining and the throw your neighbor off the lifeboat simulation..
what have they learned, how have they changed?
myself- I've learned some of my own conditioned behavior, and it really BOTHERS me.. it's just not the way to treat another human being for ANY reason.. sure, it was taught- but on the basic human level I really should have known better.
I can't imagine someone waking up with a conscience in regards to several hundred atrocities against their neighbors..
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TheHighWay
Agreed. I think after awhile denial becomes their their only option. Who would possibly want to admit they have spent their entire adult life hurting others on a routine basis?
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finallyunderstand
At one point, I was under so much pressure and fear from leadership. I would try to live up to their list of demands and it was exhausting. No matter how many people I signed up for the class or brought to twig or cleaned their houses, I was usually pulled aside to be told where I had missed it. I spent all of my time trying to be in the good graces of leadership. I did not take care of myself physically, mentally, emotionally, mentally, spiritually or financially. I was a complete mess.
Even so, I was not very proud of myself when I came to the realization about my behavior. I could have had some great friendships with some wonderful believers, but I rejected them in favor of pleasing leadership who really never cared about me. But what was worse, I was really harsh on a couple of people. They were going through some tough times and I basically told them it was because they weren't renewing their minds. I was also suspicious of the "commitment level" of one of them and told leadership this. They in turn confronted her about her commitment level amongst other things, and she was subjected to a face melting in front of several people. That's what she got for comming to me for help. Some friend I was.
When I finally saw what I had become, I felt really guilty about it. I apologized prufusely to the first person, and we are still friends to this day. But the other one had moved away from our city (wise move on her part) so I let that be my rational for not contacting her. But the truth was, I was afraid to talk to her. Every now and then I would see her at a ministry event. I would notice her tense up when she saw me comming towards her so I would chicken out and we would exchange phony pleasantries with each other. I still remember her tight smile and the steelness in her voice.
Well, a beautiful thing happened. She got healed without any help from me. I saw her one day and she went out of her way to come talk to me. She was so loving and kind towards me. I could tell it was important to her to let me know she was OK and that she loved and forgave me. Then I was healed too. This lovely beautiful woman is the one who fixed it for us when nobody would have blamed her if she resented me forever.
I try really hard to get my kids to understand the power of forgiveness, especially now that they tend to get caught up in all the high school dramas that go on in this city. (Too bad it couldn't be a High School Musical, oh well...) I hope one day they will see that even if they have been hurt by someone, that person does not have power over them. They can get healed and be happy even without appropriate acknowledgement from the offender. But I also tell them to be the first to apologize and try to make things right. If I had been a bigger person, this wonderful lady probably could have healed much sooner. I'm thankful she was a better person than I was and for the gift she gave me.
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shortfuse
Sadly I think this is really true.
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Lifted Up
Several years ago; don't remember whether it was on Waydale or the early days of GS, I got a query/conditional apology from one of our fine posters who recalled that he had been an SOB or equivalent at times to some people in the corps. At the time I said not needed because nothing stood out on the moment, but "on further review", or reflection, I did remember he had been less than kind (I think the word he used was "mean") a couple times. I never thought it was important enough to correct myself to him because he has certainly been one fine fellow here over the years.
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Twinky
Well I might be finding out about someone soon.
I forgive him
I forgive him
I forgivehim
Iforgivehim
Iforgive
If I say it enough maybe I won't get so outraged at his behavior.
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TheHighWay
I think it is perfectly acceptable and appropriate to be outraged by some of these people's behaviors!!!
At what point did outrage become the wrong emotion to feel?
Now, what you choose to do with your outrage is a separate issue, but to have it in the first place is nothing more or less (in my humble opinion) than righteous anger...
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JeffSjo
I think that anger in these cases is natural. but one of my favorite stories came from Cory Tenboom concerning how she dealt with one of the Nazi guards who abused her and her sister in a Nazi prison camp. She was running a place to help victims heal and all of the sudden in walked a man who she recognized as one of her abusers. If I recall right it was obvious to Cory that this man was distraught by his actions and came to this place of healing as part of his recover for him BEING AN ABUSER.
When Cory saw him she knew that she didn't have the strength to forgive him, but prayed to the Lord that if HE WANTED HER TO FORGIVE HIM that He would give her the strength to do just that.
To make a longer story short..... she forgave him and credited the Lord with being able to do it.
I think that perhaps it might have healed the former Nazi guard more than it helped even Cory heal.
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JeffSjo
I've been thinking about this some more.....
What I like about the Tenboom sharing (It was published but I don't remember the book's name.) was that the former Nazi guard was in a place of despair where the implications of his actions was hitting him pretty hard. I think that it is easier to see why a man in despair would consider being forgiven a gift from God. Who knows what he might have done to himself if it hadn't happened.
It doesn't look like many former abusers from TWI leadership will ever be worthy of receiving this gift to me though.
First off, there is a steady history of lying about it all. Speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their consciences seared with a hot iron.
Secondly, apparently most of think that they deserve to be forgiven, they're leadership and God owes it to them. Let nobody like that think that they will receive forgiveness from the Lord!!!
Thirdly, a lot of their souls have been twisted by the TWI game of playing with these things in order to simply BE THE BIG DOG. They only use people's sins to put them down and cannot be honest for fear of being treated like they've treated many.
GEE, other than these few things and many other things I'm sure, they are just a swell group of folks....gaaack!
(added in editing)
The folks that anger me are the ones who demand forgiveness from TWI victims right here at the greasespot. Where could their heads be.... let me think.... maybe they just want TWI victims to shut up. Sorry dudes and dudettes, I think that it's still time to shout Wierwille and companies sins from the rooftops... IT IS WRITTEN.
THEY HAVE NOT CHANGED, LET THE WHOLE WORLD SEE THEM FOR WHAT THEY WERE. It still might help save a few of them.
That's my opinion, but I'm not anticipating much in the way of changing it coming down the pike.
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waysider
"The Hiding Place"
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