How(with a straight face)can one say that TWI was “one of the most significant movements in the history of the Christian Church . . . or ". . . stands out on the spectrum of Church history as an amazingly significant Christian movement."? ---Doesn't this reveal an arrogance bordering on inane?--I wanted to add an s to that word inane.
It could reveal arrogance. It could also point to a desperate need to constantly prop one's self up. Think of a small child in a room full of adults - jumping as high as he can to get some attention. If the jumping doesn't work, it's time to climb some furniture.
After all, if JAL keeps lauding his roots to the sky, doesn't he in turn also give himself a higher starting point than "his competitors." (Think about that same child shouting, "My foundation is higher than your's! I can get higher and do it faster.)
And he went one step further and showed anyone who would sit still where his mentor erred.
It could reveal arrogance. It could also point to a desperate need to constantly prop one's self up. Think of a small child in a room full of adults - jumping as high as he can to get some attention. If the jumping doesn't work, it's time to climb some furniture.
After all, if JAL keeps lauding his roots to the sky, doesn't he in turn also give himself a higher starting point than "his competitors." (Think about that same child shouting, "My foundation is higher than your's! I can get higher and do it faster.)
And he went one step further and showed anyone who would sit still where his mentor erred.
This is the TWI top leadership game (part of it anyway) the best way that I see it. A lot of my perspective comes from my splinter group experience but fits many of your TWI stories IMO.
When Wierwille was in charge, he was the only one that was allowed to have real love and loyalty given to him. But it was inevitable that folks learned from him how to own people like this. When a leader owns the complete love and loyalty of followers anything spoken against him/her is automatically heretical. Substance is put away because for a carnal leader, playing the top dog game was more effective in terms of numbers and feedback.
When I was thinking this weekend about how my former splinter group leader has trained young women to defend him it almost made me ill. What a waste of a life, to be trained to give a sincere yet knee-jerk defense for a man who is a false prophet and a destructive s.o.b. like this guy. But they think they love a man of God..... BARF.
A while back my splinter leader's second in command said that in his opinion that most of TWI leadership's problem was that after Wierwille's time that many leaders sought to have their own followers like Wierwille did. This is a very good opinion to be taught to a second in command I would say! But I say that TWI leadership just did what Wierwille did. And that it seems to me that my former splinter group leader is comparable to Wierwille in terms of method, even if the number of the deceived is not comparable.
The reports of how JAL has acted seem very, VERY familiar to me, blech.
I'm serious about the nausea, it was hard to think about the things that I've seen done to decent people simply to promote the kingdom of a twisted man.
I've been doing other things for the last few years. I was disappointed to see how the doctrinal threads have disintegrated, but I was glad to see old familiar and dear persons here.
Back when Rafael was catagorizing the errors in PFAL, I was of the opinion that Wierwille was a deliberate con-man, knowing that what he was doing was wrong. How could Wierwille NOT have seen that he was teaching a lie about who Romans 9-11 is addressed to, while preaching the importance of paying attention "to whom it is addressed"?
But I've changed my opinion since then. Jeremiah 17:9a says, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:who can know it?" The heart is deceitful above all things because: "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise." (Proverbs 12:15), "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the Lord weigheth the spirits." (Proverbs 16:2), and "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the heart." (Proverbs 21:2)
I think a person's "eyes" refers to what a person pays habitual attention to. "In his own eyes" means the person pays habitual attention to himself, without regard to anybody else's opinion, even the Lord's. Every thing that comes out of my own heart can seem perfectly right and innocent to me, because I'm the one who originally programmed the thoughts and intents of my heart. Where my treasure is there will my heart be also. The things I habitually attach a certain value to in my thinking, will automatically assume the same value in my heart, whether my habitual thinking is right or wrong. The heart accepts the mind's rationalizations, and cannot criticize them.
Wierwille believed his own lies. His heart told him the things he was doing were right and innocent, even when he was drugging and raping his followers. This doesn't excuse him. He will still have to give account for his decisions and actions, and there will be consequences. Grace is not a license to sin.
The reason Wierwille fell prey to his heart's own deceptive wickedness was because he did not fear the Lord, and he taught us that we (including John Lynn) should not fear the Lord, either.
Fear is NOT believing in reverse. Fear is NOT sand in the machinery of life. Fear is an emotion, a feeling that MOVES us to do something. Fear moves us to get into right relation with the thing we are afraid of. The right relation with a rattle-snake is far away. The right relation with the IRS is to have filings accurate and on time, and taxes paid up. The right relation with the Lord is to recognize that HE is the Lord, and I am NOT.
If we can't trust our own hearts to tell us what's right and what's wrong, what can we trust? "The word of God is quick [living] and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner [critic] of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12) The word is living where the spirit of God working in our minds (the subjective witness) and the written word (the objective witness) agree. The living word can tell us where our heart is right and where it is wrong.
But we have to be willing to submit the thoughts and intents of our hearts to somebody else's criticism. That's where the fear of the Lord comes in. If we are not moved to get into right relation with the Lord, then we don't care whether we are right or wrong in HIS eyes.
Wierwille taught us that fearing the Lord doesn't mean "fear" but "respect", then he demonstrated that we didn't need to have any more respect for the Lord than we have for a vending machine.
Psalm 36:1-4 (NIV)
"1 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: there is no fear of God before his eyes.
"2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin.
"3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful: he hath ceased to be wise and to do good.
"4 Even on his bed he plots evil; he commits himself to a sinful course and does not reject what is wrong."
"He has ceased to be wise and to do good." It wasn't always that way. A person can start off being wise and doing good, but if he makes it a habit NOT to pay attention to the feelings that move him to get into right relation with God, then he makes it a habit to pay attention to his OWN correctness, his OWN smartness, his OWN sufficiency. He flatters himself, so much so, that he CANNOT recognize when he is wrong, and doesn't care.
I think that's what happened to Wierwille. I think it's what happened to all of us to the extent that we were influenced by Wierwille's teaching. I think it is the poison DNA of all the offshoots.
CES took Wierwille's "idiom of permission" several steps farther when they published "Don't Blame God". Once they commit something doctrinal to writing (and it's usually foolish - "the words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful"), they WILL NOT be brought to reconsider, even in the light of scripture. For them, God has become a cosmic wimp, groping blindly in the dark. John CANNOT recognize his own arrogance.
Wierwille perverted Romans 12:3, "For I say... to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly...". He told us the last part of Romans 11:20, "Be not highminded, but fear:", was not written to us. Wierwille did not think soberly. He thought of himself more highly than he ought. He did not fear, and he became highminded. He taught us to do the same.
Through the mercy and the grace of God, I have been delivered from this error, and I work daily to eradicate its influence from my thinking. I pray that the same can happen for John, along with all tjhe rest of us.
I think that is the first post of yours that I've ever read. Much of what you share scripturally concerning your speculation as to what was going on in Wierwille's heart are similar to the things that I consider also. It sounds like you've been around TWI for quite some time to me and your post is something that I'll consider for a while, I'm sure. I think we'll both agree that when the Lord has his say as to the specific things that occur in mens' hearts that the hidden things shall be revealed and that He'll have the final say.
As to the doctrinal section Steve, I haven't been in it for quite some time even though I've been around other areas of the site. But in general it seems clear to me that you consider yourself capable of improving the situation since you feel that it has "disintegrated." How about you get busy posting in the doctrinal section to bring your perceived potential improvement of the doctrinal section and we shall all see how things go then.....
I was involved with TWI from '80 to '87, went WOW to Tucson, AZ, in '82-'83, coordinated a twig in Newport, MN, from '83-'85, enrolled in the 16th Corps and spent two blocks in residence at Emporia and Gunnison before the Passing of A Patriarch hit the fan in late winter of '85-'86. I went back home to Indiana and watched the disintegration of The Way from across the state line.
I was involved with CES from the late-'80s to the mid-'90s. I worked on their "Dialogue" newsletter until genuine dialogue withered and died there. I was a grad of Momentus, and when I started to wake up a year later to the reality of the abuses that had been committed in the name of Momentus, it was the final straw for me.
I also took Dale Sides' Exercising Spiritual Authority class and attended one of his "ministerial conferences".
I was a frequent poster at Greasespot from about the turn of the millenium to a couple of years ago.
As far as the doctrinal threads go, there was a period where a number of us, capably led by Rafael, debated and catalogued the doctrinal errors of PFAL. Those were some stirring threads! You can find them in the archives.
I'm afraid I no longer have the stamina to participate the way I used to. About a year-and-a-half ago, I drove into the clinic I frequent to get a regular check up, so I could have my prescriptions rewritten. I wasn't feeling very well, but I had just had some root canal work done, and I thought that was the cause of my discomfort.
In the examing room they said, "You've lost thirty pounds."
I thought, "That's cool. I wasn't even trying."
Then they said, "Your blood pressure is low."
My blood pressure usually tends to the high side.
Then they said "CALL AN AMBULANCE!!!!"
My blood sugar was 1010 on a scale of 1-1000. Over 300 presents danger of siezures, coma and death. I went into intensive care. I am dead... or at least I ought to be. For you fellow gamers out there, I needed to roll 101 on a d100 to save.
I thank God that He didn't let this happen to me before I got "the law of believing" flushed out of my thinking! I'd be going bonkers trying to figure out how it happened, and guilting myself because I can't "believe" like that in the financial catagory :-)
I may not have the stamina I used to have, but any day above ground is a good one!
If you want to see some of my old posts, Jeff, go to the "Members" section of Greasespot, search my name, and click on the button (I think it's called) "Find Posts".
I'm very sorryto hear about your challenges, but I am glad that you've made headway as far as the old teaching on believing so that you are not condemning yourself for your health challenges. I for one am not condemning you either.
From my perspective it is easy to be critical and hard to actually help. When I read your comments about the doctrinal section it was simple to think, well...Steve thinks that things have went down hill, but what can he contribute? But now, I certainly would not expect you to contribute something that is outside of your physical capabilities.
As I said, I haven't been over in "doctrinal" for a while and don't have much of a clue as to how things are going. But when I was in doctrinal it seemed to me that some folks were engaging in some good discussion. What I remember looking back at my time with TWI is that the idea that we knew the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century is mostly fiction. If God ever gave Wierwille a conditional promise concerning knowledge of God's Word it seems obvious to me that either Wierwille absolutely and completely blew it or that it never happened. I am content to wait until the Lord has his say to say that I'm certain, but either option still seems like a valid opinion to me in the mean time. For folks who are still caught up in thinking that TWI "has it all" I think that for them perhaps most of all the Greasespot has something good to offer in terms of holding forth many facts and perspectives that could potentially help someone come down from what I now consider to be a falsly inflated opinion of TWI and sometimes the value of their own mininstries.
Even though I don't personally know John Lynn, I've heard enough to think that it's possible that he could be benefitted by having his beliefs at least tweaked or even revolutionized by the many facts and considerations here at the Greasespot that rightly run far, far outside the box of the old TWI ways of thinking. Shees, I've heard that he nicknamed himself JALVIS. I'm sorry, but I cannot think any good way to think of Lynn and "The King" in the same context.....
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doojable
It could reveal arrogance. It could also point to a desperate need to constantly prop one's self up. Think of a small child in a room full of adults - jumping as high as he can to get some attention. If the jumping doesn't work, it's time to climb some furniture.
After all, if JAL keeps lauding his roots to the sky, doesn't he in turn also give himself a higher starting point than "his competitors." (Think about that same child shouting, "My foundation is higher than your's! I can get higher and do it faster.)
And he went one step further and showed anyone who would sit still where his mentor erred.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Is that what you call it?...a loaf?
as in pinching a loaf?
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doojable
Who wants a whole moldy loaf?
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Ham
besides.. who needs a whole loaf, when a few crumbs are more than enough.. sounds kinda "needs and wants not parallel" to me..
isn't the loaf concept "greedy"?
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waysider
Who needs a loaf of bread when you can have a bowl of familia with fig pep and extra flax seeds?
:wacko:
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doojable
Oh good gawd people... no more "loaf" analogies! (I know, I know I did it too....but I'm an idiot!)
Why in the hell JAL would keep conjuring up the spectre of something he himself deemed as dead is beyond logic.
Unless ... you consider the fact that he maybe has found enough sheep lost in the wrong pasture still looking for their missing pastor.
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WhiteDove
Naw it's abundance to share with those who hunger.....
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geisha779
Boy, that analogy fits like a hand in a glove!
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JeffSjo
This is the TWI top leadership game (part of it anyway) the best way that I see it. A lot of my perspective comes from my splinter group experience but fits many of your TWI stories IMO.
When Wierwille was in charge, he was the only one that was allowed to have real love and loyalty given to him. But it was inevitable that folks learned from him how to own people like this. When a leader owns the complete love and loyalty of followers anything spoken against him/her is automatically heretical. Substance is put away because for a carnal leader, playing the top dog game was more effective in terms of numbers and feedback.
When I was thinking this weekend about how my former splinter group leader has trained young women to defend him it almost made me ill. What a waste of a life, to be trained to give a sincere yet knee-jerk defense for a man who is a false prophet and a destructive s.o.b. like this guy. But they think they love a man of God..... BARF.
A while back my splinter leader's second in command said that in his opinion that most of TWI leadership's problem was that after Wierwille's time that many leaders sought to have their own followers like Wierwille did. This is a very good opinion to be taught to a second in command I would say! But I say that TWI leadership just did what Wierwille did. And that it seems to me that my former splinter group leader is comparable to Wierwille in terms of method, even if the number of the deceived is not comparable.
The reports of how JAL has acted seem very, VERY familiar to me, blech.
I'm serious about the nausea, it was hard to think about the things that I've seen done to decent people simply to promote the kingdom of a twisted man.
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Steve Lortz
Hi, all!
I've been doing other things for the last few years. I was disappointed to see how the doctrinal threads have disintegrated, but I was glad to see old familiar and dear persons here.
Back when Rafael was catagorizing the errors in PFAL, I was of the opinion that Wierwille was a deliberate con-man, knowing that what he was doing was wrong. How could Wierwille NOT have seen that he was teaching a lie about who Romans 9-11 is addressed to, while preaching the importance of paying attention "to whom it is addressed"?
But I've changed my opinion since then. Jeremiah 17:9a says, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:who can know it?" The heart is deceitful above all things because: "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise." (Proverbs 12:15), "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the Lord weigheth the spirits." (Proverbs 16:2), and "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the heart." (Proverbs 21:2)
I think a person's "eyes" refers to what a person pays habitual attention to. "In his own eyes" means the person pays habitual attention to himself, without regard to anybody else's opinion, even the Lord's. Every thing that comes out of my own heart can seem perfectly right and innocent to me, because I'm the one who originally programmed the thoughts and intents of my heart. Where my treasure is there will my heart be also. The things I habitually attach a certain value to in my thinking, will automatically assume the same value in my heart, whether my habitual thinking is right or wrong. The heart accepts the mind's rationalizations, and cannot criticize them.
Wierwille believed his own lies. His heart told him the things he was doing were right and innocent, even when he was drugging and raping his followers. This doesn't excuse him. He will still have to give account for his decisions and actions, and there will be consequences. Grace is not a license to sin.
The reason Wierwille fell prey to his heart's own deceptive wickedness was because he did not fear the Lord, and he taught us that we (including John Lynn) should not fear the Lord, either.
Fear is NOT believing in reverse. Fear is NOT sand in the machinery of life. Fear is an emotion, a feeling that MOVES us to do something. Fear moves us to get into right relation with the thing we are afraid of. The right relation with a rattle-snake is far away. The right relation with the IRS is to have filings accurate and on time, and taxes paid up. The right relation with the Lord is to recognize that HE is the Lord, and I am NOT.
If we can't trust our own hearts to tell us what's right and what's wrong, what can we trust? "The word of God is quick [living] and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner [critic] of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12) The word is living where the spirit of God working in our minds (the subjective witness) and the written word (the objective witness) agree. The living word can tell us where our heart is right and where it is wrong.
But we have to be willing to submit the thoughts and intents of our hearts to somebody else's criticism. That's where the fear of the Lord comes in. If we are not moved to get into right relation with the Lord, then we don't care whether we are right or wrong in HIS eyes.
Wierwille taught us that fearing the Lord doesn't mean "fear" but "respect", then he demonstrated that we didn't need to have any more respect for the Lord than we have for a vending machine.
Psalm 36:1-4 (NIV)
"1 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: there is no fear of God before his eyes.
"2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin.
"3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful: he hath ceased to be wise and to do good.
"4 Even on his bed he plots evil; he commits himself to a sinful course and does not reject what is wrong."
"He has ceased to be wise and to do good." It wasn't always that way. A person can start off being wise and doing good, but if he makes it a habit NOT to pay attention to the feelings that move him to get into right relation with God, then he makes it a habit to pay attention to his OWN correctness, his OWN smartness, his OWN sufficiency. He flatters himself, so much so, that he CANNOT recognize when he is wrong, and doesn't care.
I think that's what happened to Wierwille. I think it's what happened to all of us to the extent that we were influenced by Wierwille's teaching. I think it is the poison DNA of all the offshoots.
CES took Wierwille's "idiom of permission" several steps farther when they published "Don't Blame God". Once they commit something doctrinal to writing (and it's usually foolish - "the words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful"), they WILL NOT be brought to reconsider, even in the light of scripture. For them, God has become a cosmic wimp, groping blindly in the dark. John CANNOT recognize his own arrogance.
Wierwille perverted Romans 12:3, "For I say... to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly...". He told us the last part of Romans 11:20, "Be not highminded, but fear:", was not written to us. Wierwille did not think soberly. He thought of himself more highly than he ought. He did not fear, and he became highminded. He taught us to do the same.
Through the mercy and the grace of God, I have been delivered from this error, and I work daily to eradicate its influence from my thinking. I pray that the same can happen for John, along with all tjhe rest of us.
Love,
Steve
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Jim
Who needs a bowl of familia with fig pep and extra flax seeds when you can have a plate of cold millet and a cup of well water.
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JeffSjo
Hi Steve Lortz,
I think that is the first post of yours that I've ever read. Much of what you share scripturally concerning your speculation as to what was going on in Wierwille's heart are similar to the things that I consider also. It sounds like you've been around TWI for quite some time to me and your post is something that I'll consider for a while, I'm sure. I think we'll both agree that when the Lord has his say as to the specific things that occur in mens' hearts that the hidden things shall be revealed and that He'll have the final say.
As to the doctrinal section Steve, I haven't been in it for quite some time even though I've been around other areas of the site. But in general it seems clear to me that you consider yourself capable of improving the situation since you feel that it has "disintegrated." How about you get busy posting in the doctrinal section to bring your perceived potential improvement of the doctrinal section and we shall all see how things go then.....
JEFF
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Steve Lortz
Hi, Jeff!
I was involved with TWI from '80 to '87, went WOW to Tucson, AZ, in '82-'83, coordinated a twig in Newport, MN, from '83-'85, enrolled in the 16th Corps and spent two blocks in residence at Emporia and Gunnison before the Passing of A Patriarch hit the fan in late winter of '85-'86. I went back home to Indiana and watched the disintegration of The Way from across the state line.
I was involved with CES from the late-'80s to the mid-'90s. I worked on their "Dialogue" newsletter until genuine dialogue withered and died there. I was a grad of Momentus, and when I started to wake up a year later to the reality of the abuses that had been committed in the name of Momentus, it was the final straw for me.
I also took Dale Sides' Exercising Spiritual Authority class and attended one of his "ministerial conferences".
I was a frequent poster at Greasespot from about the turn of the millenium to a couple of years ago.
As far as the doctrinal threads go, there was a period where a number of us, capably led by Rafael, debated and catalogued the doctrinal errors of PFAL. Those were some stirring threads! You can find them in the archives.
I'm afraid I no longer have the stamina to participate the way I used to. About a year-and-a-half ago, I drove into the clinic I frequent to get a regular check up, so I could have my prescriptions rewritten. I wasn't feeling very well, but I had just had some root canal work done, and I thought that was the cause of my discomfort.
In the examing room they said, "You've lost thirty pounds."
I thought, "That's cool. I wasn't even trying."
Then they said, "Your blood pressure is low."
My blood pressure usually tends to the high side.
Then they said "CALL AN AMBULANCE!!!!"
My blood sugar was 1010 on a scale of 1-1000. Over 300 presents danger of siezures, coma and death. I went into intensive care. I am dead... or at least I ought to be. For you fellow gamers out there, I needed to roll 101 on a d100 to save.
I thank God that He didn't let this happen to me before I got "the law of believing" flushed out of my thinking! I'd be going bonkers trying to figure out how it happened, and guilting myself because I can't "believe" like that in the financial catagory :-)
I may not have the stamina I used to have, but any day above ground is a good one!
If you want to see some of my old posts, Jeff, go to the "Members" section of Greasespot, search my name, and click on the button (I think it's called) "Find Posts".
I'll be back from time to time.
Love,
Steve
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JeffSjo
Dear Steve,
I'm very sorryto hear about your challenges, but I am glad that you've made headway as far as the old teaching on believing so that you are not condemning yourself for your health challenges. I for one am not condemning you either.
From my perspective it is easy to be critical and hard to actually help. When I read your comments about the doctrinal section it was simple to think, well...Steve thinks that things have went down hill, but what can he contribute? But now, I certainly would not expect you to contribute something that is outside of your physical capabilities.
As I said, I haven't been over in "doctrinal" for a while and don't have much of a clue as to how things are going. But when I was in doctrinal it seemed to me that some folks were engaging in some good discussion. What I remember looking back at my time with TWI is that the idea that we knew the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century is mostly fiction. If God ever gave Wierwille a conditional promise concerning knowledge of God's Word it seems obvious to me that either Wierwille absolutely and completely blew it or that it never happened. I am content to wait until the Lord has his say to say that I'm certain, but either option still seems like a valid opinion to me in the mean time. For folks who are still caught up in thinking that TWI "has it all" I think that for them perhaps most of all the Greasespot has something good to offer in terms of holding forth many facts and perspectives that could potentially help someone come down from what I now consider to be a falsly inflated opinion of TWI and sometimes the value of their own mininstries.
Even though I don't personally know John Lynn, I've heard enough to think that it's possible that he could be benefitted by having his beliefs at least tweaked or even revolutionized by the many facts and considerations here at the Greasespot that rightly run far, far outside the box of the old TWI ways of thinking. Shees, I've heard that he nicknamed himself JALVIS. I'm sorry, but I cannot think any good way to think of Lynn and "The King" in the same context.....
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now I see
Jim,
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