Apparently what they think that they know isn`t enough.
Knowledge puffeth up Dude, That is why so many ex way are so arrogant that they will never actually know the truth.
What they know is invariably used as an excuse to dismiss themselves from their spiritual responsibilities and the glaring lack of fruit from one who is supposedly of the spirit.
Well said Geisha, it has been a chilling thought to me. How many of us ex twi are going to one day be told to *depart for I knew you not*? In spite of having prophesied in his name and cast out demons....sigh
SIMPLE BUT TRUE FOR ME, IF I THINK THAT I KNOW ANYTHING, I DO NOT KNOW IT YET AS I OUGHT. Who could possibly be too big for them to think that this sentiment that the Apostle Paul shared does not apply to them?
VPW said, "You can't go any further than what you know." He also said, "Learn to read what's written on the page." I personally found those two sentences compelling, and I found it interesting that he said those things and then did opposite of what he said. What I found was that "what you know" was constrained to what was taught through TWI and "what's written on the page" was through the eyes of a TWI person who was "properly" instructed in "rightly dividing the Word" and supposedly not subject to "private interpretation." I chose to live by a more literal interpretation of what VPW said. I did my own study and came to my own conclusions, which were not the conclusions of TWI's "researchers." I was amazed at some of the conclusions, particularly the last book on Romans and submitting to authority, but I was never one to go along to get along.
JAL was raised in a decent, large, and affluent church, but I doubt if it was "on fire," as that's not a word used to describe Presbyterians. I'm sure TWI was far edgier at the time. However, I know a few people from his former church and they aren't as he described, but then again he hasn't been involved in that church since the 60s.
I didn't know JAL during his TWI days (although I knew his family fairly well), so I can't comment about how he was in TWI beyond how I hear he was with my husband over taking medication (which JAL apologized for doing). I also agree with how CES disciplined him. He was not involved with anyone in a predatory sexual activity category like what took place in TWI, but CES has taken a pretty firm stance on sexual purity and JAL chose to ignore that standard.
Out of the whole bunch at CES, JAL was the only one who has ever called me and asked me how I was doing and didn't want something in return. What I alway gave JAL was my listening ear and my honest opinion. I have told him on more than one occasion that he needed to step away from what he was doing to gain some sort of perspective. He could never bring himself to do that. Nevertheless, I do not doubt his sincerity, but based on that letter, he appears to be more and more isolated from the outside world, IMO.
Having spent most of my life in Indiana (lived in Carmel from 86-02) the church that is being referred to is 2nd Pres as it is known by in Indy. It is cetainly not known for being a place where it's members are caught up in outwardly emotional worship. However, that does not discredit them as committed Christians. It's former head minister is the former mayor of Indianapolis Bill Hudnut (given much of the credit for making Indy a bright spot of economic prosperity in the midwest today). The church is the place to go to for the WASP elite of business and politics on the north side of Indianapolis. I too know people who are members and have much respect for their quiet and respectful Christian style. They are honest, hardworking and godly people IMHO. JAL's family were highly respected in the community and members in good standing in 2nd Pres. They may have lost some friends and respect from local community friends and neighbors after they became actively involved in TWI...but from my perspective were still great upstanding members of the community that they were such an integral part of. I certainly have nothing but the highest respect for the Lynn's. They were a strong family that supported their children equally whether they were in or out of TWI. I knew their other son Charlie (who sadly passed away recently) stayed active in 2nd Pres and they loved and supported him just as much as JAL.
I haven't spoke to JAL in a few years, but I always found him engaging and never felt suppressed by him when I disagreed with him (which I never hesitated to do). I always looked at him as no different than other friend or acquantance whom I may have liked but certainly do not agree on everything that comes out of their mouth. We have all sinned and are in need of God's grace and mercy...he is no different in my mind. Although there may be a few points he raises in his most recent letter I agree with (can't think of what they are and I am not going to take the time to reread it), overall it is of little importance in the overall picture. I think most people who come to the cafe don't give it a great deal of credence.
God knows how many heads he has no matter what we think of how we see him, he is what he is. What he DID ask us to do was to love him and love our neighbors.
Can`t say as I have seen that from the scripture masters....shrug
In twi knowledge was seen as spirituality. It is obvious from the way they treated people and the fruit that was manifested, that biblical accuracy and scriptural study didn`t prevent them from being very very evil...their lives manifesting the fruit that declares them of the flesh and having no inheritance in The kingdom of God.
On the other hand, I have seen people in the churches, whether they pray to God, to Jesus, or even Mary that understand and live *Love God and love your neighbor. They manage to manifest the fruit that Jesus would identify them as a brother or sister.
Jesus said that we would know them by their fruits. Not by the belief they profess, the way that they worship, or the amount of knowledge that they amassed.
I think that many times, our knowledge aquired in twi has developed an arrogance that may prevent us from ever being humble enough to recieve the things of God and function as genuine Christians.
God knows how many heads he has no matter what we think of how we see him, he is what he is. What he DID ask us to do was to love him and love our neighbors.
Can`t say as I have seen that from the scripture masters....shrug
In twi knowledge was seen as spirituality. It is obvious from the way they treated people and the fruit that was manifested, that biblical accuracy and scriptural study didn`t prevent them from being very very evil...their lives manifesting the fruit that declares them of the flesh and having no inheritance in The kingdom of God.
On the other hand, I have seen people in the churches, whether they pray to God, to Jesus, or even Mary that understand and live *Love God and love your neighbor. They manage to manifest the fruit that Jesus would identify them as a brother or sister.
Jesus said that we would know them by their fruits. Not by the belief they profess, the way that they worship, or the amount of knowledge that they amassed.
Jesus also said Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures.
I think that many times, our knowledge aquired in twi has developed an arrogance that may prevent us from ever being humble enough to recieve the things of God and function as genuine Christians.
Maybe some of us Rascal, but, I see so much love of right and a real depth of wisdom in so many things you write. Real compassion for those hurt. I recognize those attributes--the Lord has them.
That heart and stirrings of humble understanding comes from above.
You and I have both seen that . . . knowledge without love. . . . ?? Not always pretty. TWI was full of puffed up people who THOUGHT they knew the truth.
Sad thing is. . . . many still do.
Just to stay on topic--JAL is a prime example with that last letter. I hope someday soon he does understand what a significant Christian movement really is.
I just found this on the Way Corps site, where John Lynn has a blog and was discussing this letter, which is posted in full:
Comment by John Lynn on October 24, 2008 at 10:42am
Hi [name],
Bless you! I was inspired to write this after listening to an interview on Greasespot with my dear friend Ralph Dubofsky. I felt that he made some statements that were inaccurate. As I began to write, a lot of things came up for me, and you have seen the result, the original of which I submitted to about 15 people for feedback before sending it out.
Lots of love!
John
Haven't seen that he posted that here at the Cafe.
So Ralph is to blame for John's letter, huh? Hmmm...
IMO it's ludicrous to think Ralph or anyone could portray John in a misrepresented way. All one needs to do is read John's own letters/statements to understand where he is coming from. And those are posted EVERYWHERE because he promotes himself so much.
As I see it, Ralph told his story as he experienced it and because I was at HQ during that time, I can say I have no argument with his take on things. The whole system caved in because it was doomed from the start. A system built on sand can't stand [wishful thinking on my part...] Anyway, read any decent book on fundamentalist/cult movements and you'll find they are all based on fear. fear. fear. And fear will burn itself out eventually [more wishful thinking]. Who needs it?
Now, moving on to more important issues...let's see...I think questions for each of us include what do we want to do in this world? Make it a better place? Love others? Understand and have compassion for different people's points of view and religious beliefs? Protect first amendment rights? Be good citizens? Tell our stories as honestly as we can? Get educated about what twi actually is and the belief system it perpetrates? Mmm...lots to ponder...
For anyone interested, here's my recent comment to John on his blog at the Way Corps site:
John,
We've known each other since 1970 when I was just a kid overtaken with the idealism of The Way at ECU. With due respect, I am stunned, in a way, that someone who thinks as much as you do, has decided to laud VP's works and methodology as you still do. I still feel that the conversation you and I had in my living room in 1987 after I left the Research Dept and HQ was when I had my chance to pry into your thinking...when I explained that I couldn't go around and say "Thus saith the Lord" since I didn't know 100% what the Lord might have said. You interpreted my concerns as being "burned out on twi" but that was your misunderstanding of the reasons I had for coming to that conclusion. I know how much I don't know about the history of text and that trying to create a relationship, as they say, with God based on ancient writings is futile for me. Oh well...it's clear you are a train without stops.
I'm not so foolish to think I can change your mind about what you believe. I just want to say take care and in your most quiet moments, try and consider that maybe what you are so sure of just isn't so certain after all...
When JAL first left twi (was fired), he was quick to point out the errors of twi's doctrine and Wierwille's hedonistic lifestyle...yet now he speaks of his "father in the word" being proud of him...
The acid never wore off?...Could be. It seems that Lynn believes in the snow on the gaspumps story. When God spoke audibly to VP F *****g Wierwille...Lynn is now quoting this story as his continuing mission...knowing the word as it hasn't been known since the first century, blah blah blah...
That story was the HOOK that sucked people into the cult!...God spoke to this guy!!! It was a done deal after that...and now Lynn is trying to revive it...and I say it's about time someone called bulls **t on him.
...and the sad thing is that he probably believes it! There are still plenty of people who live their lives believing twi doctrine...and that's part of the tragic legacy that twi leaves behind...
The acid never wore off?...Could be. It seems that Lynn believes in the snow on the gaspumps story. When God spoke audibly to VP F *****g Wierwille...Lynn is now quoting this story as his continuing mission...knowing the word as it hasn't been known since the first century, blah blah blah...
That story was the HOOK that sucked people into the cult!...God spoke to this guy!!! It was a done deal after that...and now Lynn is trying to revive it...and I say it's about time someone called bulls **t on him.
...and the sad thing is that he probably believes it! There are still plenty of people who live their lives believing twi doctrine...and that's part of the tragic legacy that twi leaves behind...
what with the very *public* talk by Ralphie and public challenge by John Juedes.. he runs to the safety of whatever nest it is they've got to offer over there.. it's really pathetic..
if all else fails, go where you aren't challenged.
forget the "real world"..
I dunno.. a lot of those guys were in his days of corps training, were they not?
Perhaps he got them "conditioned" like circus animals to the point he just has to say the right kind of keywords and display certain mannerisms, and they automatically slobber all over him with praise and throw him money..
what with the very *public* talk by Ralphie and public challenge by John Juedes.. he runs to the safety of whatever nest it is they've got to offer over there.. it's really pathetic..
if all else fails, go where you aren't challenged.
forget the "real world"..
If he can't handle a little bloody nose, he's in the wrong line of work. God rarely calls the cowardly.
To post here doesn't even expose him to physical danger-just people disagreeing with him-
most of it quite civilly.
Meanwhile, there's Christians in other countries who are beaten with sticks, who are killed, and don't recant
I dunno.. a lot of those guys were in his days of corps training, were they not?
Perhaps he got them "conditioned" like circus animals to the point he just has to say the right kind of keywords and display certain mannerisms, and they automatically slobber all over him with praise and throw him money..
Based on the fact that there's ANY recidivism to twi or its framework-
despite it being exposed to have been based on a sham, lies and deception-
I'd say some people are responding to "conditioning" by playing along.
Yet the letter seems to have been quite well received on the Way Corps site.
Does that surprise anyone?...the majority of people who hang at that website are the ones who didn't leave enough bread crumbs behind on the trail to find their way back home after the cult experience...
if all else fails, go where you aren't challenged.
forget the "real world"..
The real world ? Do you really think this is the real world? looks like Cyber World to me.
Do you really think that the few hundred that post here out of thousands of others represent the real world?
John is accepted in many of those other groups because he is not stuck in Cyber World posting the same discussions day after day, week after week ,year after year. You might want to recheck your idea of the real world....
As Far as I can see he has been pretty across the line in his calls he has pointed out the good with the bad. He is hardly a pro TWI person and yet he does not need to see everything as negative as some do. Most people appreciate a fair and balanced view of things.
Does that surprise anyone?...the majority of people who hang at that website are the ones who didn't leave enough bread crumbs behind on the trail to find their way back home after the cult experience...
Most people on that site most likely did not want to return back to what they once were, perhaps they just wanted to move forward.
Who wants to eat crumbs when you can enjoy the whole loaf ?
Groucho struck a nerve with the gas pump thing. I was trying to remember how I could actually think this was true!?!
Not having too much experience with true Christianity--being young and kinda gullible--I guess I wanted to believe it. After that, it was easy to believe all the other "Great" things about VP--it was a process. When I think about it now--I cringe. I never really challenged anything.
I am not 19 anymore. Looking back, I can ALMOST understand how I fell for it, but NOW??
It is really hard to put into words. . . . but JAL has spent a whole lifetime building thought patterns and a paticular way of processing information. He never has broken free from it I guess. Maybe being high up the food chain and so immersed--he was unable. . . maybe it just becomes part of your DNA.
Really taking time to examine things and let God do the leading with patience--is not everyone's cup of tea. Leading God is more the inclination of the arrogant I think. Faith leads to rest, but with ex-twi it first seems to lead in the opposite direction from what is comfortable.
Perhaps pride can get in the way . . .
How(with a straight face)can one say that TWI was “one of the most significant movements in the history of the Christian Church . . . or ". . . stands out on the spectrum of Church history as an amazingly significant Christian movement."? ---Doesn't this reveal an arrogance bordering on inane?--I wanted to add an s to that word inane.
Reality and facts point to a destructive and abusive CULT!!
In so many ways it is tragic. . . . for those who's lives have been altered. . . for those confident in a salvation that is just not there. Think of the truly bizarre repercussions of "Personal Prophecy". The pain and confusion.
Maybe JAL was deceived as we all were, but it appears over time he has become a carrier. . . . a man with a mission--actually opposed to the things of God---and totally clueless because he is too busy still patting himself and VP on the back.
BTW As is evident in the varying faiths--opinions--incomes--ages--priorities--politics--and recovery---I would say this forum is somewhat representative of the "Real World". Well said Ham.
It can't be an easy thing to look back on all that wasted time, but it is never too late to change.
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rascal
Apparently what they think that they know isn`t enough.
Knowledge puffeth up Dude, That is why so many ex way are so arrogant that they will never actually know the truth.
What they know is invariably used as an excuse to dismiss themselves from their spiritual responsibilities and the glaring lack of fruit from one who is supposedly of the spirit.
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geisha779
Some of us might do well to heed that advice White Dove. You were in a cult and they taught you error. Sadly,
some still cling doggedly to it--
Some ex-way do want to know who Jesus is and humble themselves before Him. We ask.
If you don't even believe we are to keep our eyes on Jesus--how can you speak with such authority as to who He is??
It is the sheep who hear the His voice. We follow Him. Don't you think He would let us know who He is?
I really feel bad for you. I truly do.
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rascal
Well said Geisha, it has been a chilling thought to me. How many of us ex twi are going to one day be told to *depart for I knew you not*? In spite of having prophesied in his name and cast out demons....sigh
Our knowledge doesn`t mean squat.
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JeffSjo
SIMPLE BUT TRUE FOR ME, IF I THINK THAT I KNOW ANYTHING, I DO NOT KNOW IT YET AS I OUGHT. Who could possibly be too big for them to think that this sentiment that the Apostle Paul shared does not apply to them?
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Calflor
Having spent most of my life in Indiana (lived in Carmel from 86-02) the church that is being referred to is 2nd Pres as it is known by in Indy. It is cetainly not known for being a place where it's members are caught up in outwardly emotional worship. However, that does not discredit them as committed Christians. It's former head minister is the former mayor of Indianapolis Bill Hudnut (given much of the credit for making Indy a bright spot of economic prosperity in the midwest today). The church is the place to go to for the WASP elite of business and politics on the north side of Indianapolis. I too know people who are members and have much respect for their quiet and respectful Christian style. They are honest, hardworking and godly people IMHO. JAL's family were highly respected in the community and members in good standing in 2nd Pres. They may have lost some friends and respect from local community friends and neighbors after they became actively involved in TWI...but from my perspective were still great upstanding members of the community that they were such an integral part of. I certainly have nothing but the highest respect for the Lynn's. They were a strong family that supported their children equally whether they were in or out of TWI. I knew their other son Charlie (who sadly passed away recently) stayed active in 2nd Pres and they loved and supported him just as much as JAL.
I haven't spoke to JAL in a few years, but I always found him engaging and never felt suppressed by him when I disagreed with him (which I never hesitated to do). I always looked at him as no different than other friend or acquantance whom I may have liked but certainly do not agree on everything that comes out of their mouth. We have all sinned and are in need of God's grace and mercy...he is no different in my mind. Although there may be a few points he raises in his most recent letter I agree with (can't think of what they are and I am not going to take the time to reread it), overall it is of little importance in the overall picture. I think most people who come to the cafe don't give it a great deal of credence.
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WhiteDove
I'll take scripture over belief in tri headed God's
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rascal
God knows how many heads he has no matter what we think of how we see him, he is what he is. What he DID ask us to do was to love him and love our neighbors.
Can`t say as I have seen that from the scripture masters....shrug
In twi knowledge was seen as spirituality. It is obvious from the way they treated people and the fruit that was manifested, that biblical accuracy and scriptural study didn`t prevent them from being very very evil...their lives manifesting the fruit that declares them of the flesh and having no inheritance in The kingdom of God.
On the other hand, I have seen people in the churches, whether they pray to God, to Jesus, or even Mary that understand and live *Love God and love your neighbor. They manage to manifest the fruit that Jesus would identify them as a brother or sister.
Jesus said that we would know them by their fruits. Not by the belief they profess, the way that they worship, or the amount of knowledge that they amassed.
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rascal
I think that many times, our knowledge aquired in twi has developed an arrogance that may prevent us from ever being humble enough to recieve the things of God and function as genuine Christians.
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WhiteDove
Jesus also said Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures.
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geisha779
Maybe some of us Rascal, but, I see so much love of right and a real depth of wisdom in so many things you write. Real compassion for those hurt. I recognize those attributes--the Lord has them.
That heart and stirrings of humble understanding comes from above.
You and I have both seen that . . . knowledge without love. . . . ?? Not always pretty. TWI was full of puffed up people who THOUGHT they knew the truth.
Sad thing is. . . . many still do.
Just to stay on topic--JAL is a prime example with that last letter. I hope someday soon he does understand what a significant Christian movement really is.
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A la prochaine
I haven't read this whole thread...but I must agree with HAM...
For John Lynn the acid never wore off.
So sad that he never enjoyed a 'real' life but one that was created for him by a drunk and a womanizer.
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Twinky
I just found this on the Way Corps site, where John Lynn has a blog and was discussing this letter, which is posted in full:
Haven't seen that he posted that here at the Cafe.
So Ralph is to blame for John's letter, huh? Hmmm...
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penworks
IMO it's ludicrous to think Ralph or anyone could portray John in a misrepresented way. All one needs to do is read John's own letters/statements to understand where he is coming from. And those are posted EVERYWHERE because he promotes himself so much.
As I see it, Ralph told his story as he experienced it and because I was at HQ during that time, I can say I have no argument with his take on things. The whole system caved in because it was doomed from the start. A system built on sand can't stand [wishful thinking on my part...] Anyway, read any decent book on fundamentalist/cult movements and you'll find they are all based on fear. fear. fear. And fear will burn itself out eventually [more wishful thinking]. Who needs it?
Now, moving on to more important issues...let's see...I think questions for each of us include what do we want to do in this world? Make it a better place? Love others? Understand and have compassion for different people's points of view and religious beliefs? Protect first amendment rights? Be good citizens? Tell our stories as honestly as we can? Get educated about what twi actually is and the belief system it perpetrates? Mmm...lots to ponder...
Peace,
penworks
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penworks
For anyone interested, here's my recent comment to John on his blog at the Way Corps site:
John,
We've known each other since 1970 when I was just a kid overtaken with the idealism of The Way at ECU. With due respect, I am stunned, in a way, that someone who thinks as much as you do, has decided to laud VP's works and methodology as you still do. I still feel that the conversation you and I had in my living room in 1987 after I left the Research Dept and HQ was when I had my chance to pry into your thinking...when I explained that I couldn't go around and say "Thus saith the Lord" since I didn't know 100% what the Lord might have said. You interpreted my concerns as being "burned out on twi" but that was your misunderstanding of the reasons I had for coming to that conclusion. I know how much I don't know about the history of text and that trying to create a relationship, as they say, with God based on ancient writings is futile for me. Oh well...it's clear you are a train without stops.
I'm not so foolish to think I can change your mind about what you believe. I just want to say take care and in your most quiet moments, try and consider that maybe what you are so sure of just isn't so certain after all...
Peace,
Charlene
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GrouchoMarxJr
Interesting posts...
When JAL first left twi (was fired), he was quick to point out the errors of twi's doctrine and Wierwille's hedonistic lifestyle...yet now he speaks of his "father in the word" being proud of him...
Hmmm, what am I missing here?
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GrouchoMarxJr
The acid never wore off?...Could be. It seems that Lynn believes in the snow on the gaspumps story. When God spoke audibly to VP F *****g Wierwille...Lynn is now quoting this story as his continuing mission...knowing the word as it hasn't been known since the first century, blah blah blah...
That story was the HOOK that sucked people into the cult!...God spoke to this guy!!! It was a done deal after that...and now Lynn is trying to revive it...and I say it's about time someone called bulls **t on him.
...and the sad thing is that he probably believes it! There are still plenty of people who live their lives believing twi doctrine...and that's part of the tragic legacy that twi leaves behind...
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penworks
Agreed!
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Twinky
Yet the letter seems to have been quite well received on the Way Corps site.
Hasn't provoked the comment that has been made at the Cafe. More congratulatory.
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Ham
some of them probably exclaim with tears in their eyes..
*Garsh.. a cewebwity, fwom the good old days..*..
well.. he seems to fit in SOMEWHERE.. just "somewhere" appears to be an awkward hybrid between a country club and a "retirement" home..
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Ham
what with the very *public* talk by Ralphie and public challenge by John Juedes.. he runs to the safety of whatever nest it is they've got to offer over there.. it's really pathetic..
if all else fails, go where you aren't challenged.
forget the "real world"..
I dunno.. a lot of those guys were in his days of corps training, were they not?
Perhaps he got them "conditioned" like circus animals to the point he just has to say the right kind of keywords and display certain mannerisms, and they automatically slobber all over him with praise and throw him money..
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WordWolf
If he can't handle a little bloody nose, he's in the wrong line of work. God rarely calls the cowardly.
To post here doesn't even expose him to physical danger-just people disagreeing with him-
most of it quite civilly.
Meanwhile, there's Christians in other countries who are beaten with sticks, who are killed, and don't recant
their faith.
http://www.persecution.com/
http://www.persecution.org/suffering/index.php
http://www.persecution.net/
Based on the fact that there's ANY recidivism to twi or its framework-
despite it being exposed to have been based on a sham, lies and deception-
I'd say some people are responding to "conditioning" by playing along.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Does that surprise anyone?...the majority of people who hang at that website are the ones who didn't leave enough bread crumbs behind on the trail to find their way back home after the cult experience...
snow on the gaspumps indeed!
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WhiteDove
The real world ? Do you really think this is the real world? looks like Cyber World to me.
Do you really think that the few hundred that post here out of thousands of others represent the real world?
John is accepted in many of those other groups because he is not stuck in Cyber World posting the same discussions day after day, week after week ,year after year. You might want to recheck your idea of the real world....
As Far as I can see he has been pretty across the line in his calls he has pointed out the good with the bad. He is hardly a pro TWI person and yet he does not need to see everything as negative as some do. Most people appreciate a fair and balanced view of things.
Most people on that site most likely did not want to return back to what they once were, perhaps they just wanted to move forward.
Who wants to eat crumbs when you can enjoy the whole loaf ?
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geisha779
Groucho struck a nerve with the gas pump thing. I was trying to remember how I could actually think this was true!?!
Not having too much experience with true Christianity--being young and kinda gullible--I guess I wanted to believe it. After that, it was easy to believe all the other "Great" things about VP--it was a process. When I think about it now--I cringe. I never really challenged anything.
I am not 19 anymore. Looking back, I can ALMOST understand how I fell for it, but NOW??
It is really hard to put into words. . . . but JAL has spent a whole lifetime building thought patterns and a paticular way of processing information. He never has broken free from it I guess. Maybe being high up the food chain and so immersed--he was unable. . . maybe it just becomes part of your DNA.
Really taking time to examine things and let God do the leading with patience--is not everyone's cup of tea. Leading God is more the inclination of the arrogant I think. Faith leads to rest, but with ex-twi it first seems to lead in the opposite direction from what is comfortable.
Perhaps pride can get in the way . . .
How(with a straight face)can one say that TWI was “one of the most significant movements in the history of the Christian Church . . . or ". . . stands out on the spectrum of Church history as an amazingly significant Christian movement."? ---Doesn't this reveal an arrogance bordering on inane?--I wanted to add an s to that word inane.
Reality and facts point to a destructive and abusive CULT!!
In so many ways it is tragic. . . . for those who's lives have been altered. . . for those confident in a salvation that is just not there. Think of the truly bizarre repercussions of "Personal Prophecy". The pain and confusion.
Maybe JAL was deceived as we all were, but it appears over time he has become a carrier. . . . a man with a mission--actually opposed to the things of God---and totally clueless because he is too busy still patting himself and VP on the back.
BTW As is evident in the varying faiths--opinions--incomes--ages--priorities--politics--and recovery---I would say this forum is somewhat representative of the "Real World". Well said Ham.
It can't be an easy thing to look back on all that wasted time, but it is never too late to change.
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