J. Lynn's "The Way, It Was"

[johnj]

Lynn says that V. P. Wierwille put together a combination of teachings which were "the Word as it had not been known since the first century"- the phrase be "bought" from Wierwille. He admits that Wierwille was a plagiarist (who stole other's ideas), serial adulterer (who stole others' wives and fiances), megalomaniac (who promoted himself as "The Man of God") and greedy man who used his teachings on the Law of Tithing and Law of Prosperity to induce people to pay for his luxuries. Wierwille undoubtedly does not qualify as a godly leader according to the traits required by Titus and Timothy but does qualify as a false prophet by Jesus' definition. Yet, Lynn honors his teachings and thoughts.

John Lynn claims that he and CES are keeping the Word alive and moving all over the world (p.5). But whose word are they keeping alive? Wierwille's word.

[Ham]

Part of the problem is vic's "it doesn't matter what you did in the past.. you can go as far and as fast as you want to with God.."

of course in practical terms, I think that it set otherwise entirely unqualified neophytes over others in the church.. who could supply the right kind of schmoozing..

like the kid, who's dad was the agent who sold them the Indiana campus. I think he was ordained, less than six months after he graduated from the corps.. "dad" was filthy rich..

A neophyte, unmarried.. no real responsibilities in life other than to feed himself..

not saying he was a bad guy, just unqualified.

The same kind of "standards" also allowed those who disqualifed themselves as elders through irrational hasty decisions and sexual immorality to stay in "office".. and to this day, loy would still be in some official capacity at the way, if not for the lawyers and courts and such.

jl couldn't get the same respect, or employment as a "pastor" anywhere else in the WORLD, as he gets from "leadership", and a waning following at ces..

I'd put it to him as a dare..

find a strictly conservative LEGITIMATE non-trinitarian church- one that mostly agrees with way doctrine, that desperately needs a pastor.. turn on the charm, submit a resume.. even offer services for FREE..

within an hour, "thanks *mr* lynn, but no thanks.."

I think the only thing jl left the old ministry with was the microphone, and a ready audience.. and I think that is slowly eroding into insignificance..

his little letter is pathetic.. "come on fellas.. give it one more try for the Gipper.."

[excathedra]

Wierwille undoubtedly does not qualify as a godly leader according to the traits required by Titus and Timothy

i don't need a bible to tell me about a horrible hurtful sexual predator, but thanks, johnj

[johnj]

Lynn proudly repeats TWI's phrase, "The Word of God is the will of God." But at the same time he declares that the Gospels, half of Acts and much of Revelation are not authoritative today. In reality, the way splinters count only a small part of the New Testament as the will of God, just as TWI does.

The Gospels are the foundation of the "intimate relationship with Jesus Christ" that Lynn admits TWI never taught. A major reason TWI lacked this is because it declared that the words of Jesus Christ were not written to them (or any Christians since Pentecost). This is like telling a bride to have an intimate relationship with her husband, but adding that his love letters were written to another woman. CES wants to restore intimate relationships with Jesus Christ while continuing to hold a major cause of the problem, its extreme view of "administrations" (called "ultradispensationalism").

John Lynn claims that he and CES are keeping the Word alive and moving all over the world (p.5). But whose word are they keeping alive? Wierwille's word.

[Ham]

This is like telling a bride to have an intimate relationship with her husband, but adding that his love letters were written to another woman.

Never thought of it that way.. makes sense.

Some might, but most ladies I know wouldn't tolerate an "arrangement" like that.

In fact, the fella would probably get the "bums rush", his belongings following behind him..

[johnj]

It seems to me that people who were in TWI vastly overestimate TWI's impact. Around 100,000 people took the class (does anyone have an accurate number?). This is less than one-thousandth of one percent of the population of the USA, to say nothing of the percentage of world population. The number of people who stayed with TWI for any significant length of time after taking the class is much smaller, nearer one ten-thousandth of one peercent of USA population.

I've been in many Christian bookstores, several very large. I've also seen many calalogs of Christian books. But I've never seen one offer even a single book by VPW or TWI. So the influence of TWI teaching on the Christian Church is essentially zero. (Ohter heretics have had inlfuence, but not VPW)

[waysider]

I've been in many Christian bookstores, several very large. I've also seen many calalogs of Christian books. But I've never seen one offer even a single book by VPW or TWI. So the influence of TWI teaching on the Christian Church is essentially zero. (Ohter heretics have had inlfuence, but not VPW)

The bookstore point is one that I, too, used to ponder.

In fact, I posed the question ,"why not, if this information is as important as stated, focus some of our efforts and resources into getting these materials into libraries and bookstores?" The answer I was always given was that the materials built upon one another like chemistry 201 is built on chemistry 101, etc. and that the materials had to be viewed in the context of "the class" to be fully comprehended. Of course, this was all just a rationalization meant to drive the sales effort associated with promoting their product, PLAF (The Wonder Class). If you watch much TV (personally I don't anymore), it won't take long before you see an ad for a product that is "not available in stores!". Same concept, really. If you want the product, you have to buy it from us. It was all really just a money making business that used God as bait. Money making schemes come and go every day without a hint of notice from the general populace. So it was with VP & Co.

[Ham]

It seems to me that people who were in TWI vastly overestimate TWI's impact. Around 100,000 people took the class

MAYBE have been a close estimate, I don't know..

what's it down to now? MAYBE 1500.. including the kids? twi isn't exactly talking.. probably embarrassing.

Then.. how many even LISTEN to jl's little one-sided know it all monologues? A few here, and even most of them that I know of consider it "hooey".

That's what makes it so pathetic.. he has repeatedly trolled greasepot, and any other "offshoot" he can get his foot in the door to try to rustle up a few more followers..

I would imagine they are at the few hundreds level, if even that. But they aren't saying exactly, either.

[Calflor]

The thing that saddens me about the JAL story is that he was a very talented, intelligent and energetic young man in the 70's (who did have a serious impact on his hometown (Indianapois) during that time) to fall so far from the standards of his upbringing because of his own personal involvement with TWI. This is a man who would have been successful in business, education or entertainment if he would have chosen almost any other organization than TWI to focus his drive and passion.

If I were him I would do anything but laud the greatness of a man and an organization that did so much damage to him and his family personally.

[doojable]

If I were him I would do anything but laud the greatness of a man and an organization that did so much damage to him and his family personally.

I'm going to venture a guess here, but I suspect this statement says more about JAL than a lot of other things.

He has had more than ample time to process the cost to him and his family. He seems like he's accepted the most basic part of the teaching (adultery, dishonest use of the Bible - etc) and is merely rejecting the window dressing (ie - individual teachings that are replaced with a "new and improved" POV)

[excathedra]

that was a nice post, calfor

[now I see]

It's very beneficial to have our eyes opened, we are no longer betwitched by vpw or the twi organization, but in reflecting upon what could have been, it is clear many of us have paid a price for our association with that group.

[johnj]

It seems a lot of people joined TWI when they were young, or grew up in it, and didn't have an adult experience with a good church or fellowship of beleivers with good Bible teaching. When VPW said "you can only go as far as you've been taught," it applied very painfully to them especially. To see the world and the Word through the eyes of TWI is a warped view indeed, and many people have not yet gone very far beyond it.

[WhiteDove]

It seems a lot of people joined TWI when they were young, or grew up in it, and didn't have an adult experience with a good church or fellowship of beleivers with good Bible teaching. When VPW said "you can only go as far as you've been taught," it applied very painfully to them especially. To see the world and the Word through the eyes of TWI is a warped view indeed, and many people have not yet gone very far beyond it.

Then again some joined because we had an adult experiance with a church and found it lacking. 35 years later not much has changed they are still praying to the three in one oil can

Edited November 9, 2008 by WhiteDove

[WordWolf]

Then again some joined because we had an adult experiance with a church and found it lacking. 35 years later not much has changed they are still praying to the three in one oil can

Is that really how you see your fellow Christians, for whom Christ died?

As praying to an "oil-can"?

How about at least considering them mistaken in doctrine but attempting to

serve God and live love?

Is it that important to be "one who knows" that one can't even consider the

position of "one who cares"?

Jesus himself said his disciples would be recognized by their LOVE,

not their DOCTRINE.

[Ham]

Then again some joined because we had an adult experiance with a church and found it lacking. 35 years later not much has changed they are still praying to the three in one oil can

Then again, some had an adult experience with a church, and found themselves too uncomfortable from the moral restraints against rampant sex, alcoholism, and abuse in general..

had to find some place to "scripturally" justify and continue their abhorrent behavior..

[Ham]

There are a lot of reasons why ex-wayers start another clone..

somehow, they just can't "fit in" anywhere else, morally or otherwise..

I think arguing a specific doctrine is just what they proverbially call "window dressing"..

my opinion.. jl, by his own (forced) admission of being morally destitute, participating in morally destitute actions, illustrates the point quite well. He can't exactly "fit in" anywhere else that's reputable in the world, now can he?

How many others have partaken of the vicster's adulterous poison? We may never know.. but one thing is obvious- with one or two exceptions, not a single one of his hand picked and groomed "men" that I know of "fit in" anywhere either..

Some wolves are rather allergic to sheep skin..

[Ham]

Where else, in the WORLD- can one find a church, where upon confrontation with documentation about sexual indescretions and worse- that an ELDER or PASTOR is allowed to continue in the organization- on the promise or oath that he will not carry on any more of the "shenanigans"?

I should rephrase it.. "what REPUTABLE organization.. can one find these conditions"?

I guess being able to trash the trinity fixes EVERYTHING..

That's really "the way, it was"..

[Ham]

my opinion.. jl, by his own (forced) admission of being morally destitute, participating in morally destitute actions, illustrates the point quite well. He can't exactly "fit in" anywhere else that's reputable in the world, now can he?

they claim to have a "biblical handle" on prophecy, the trinity, "dispensations"..

but doesn't the mere fact that they honor and revere jl- tell the real story about the organization?

same thing for the geerite organization..

they honor the word of a man who was a pistol toting thug for the mog or worse?

he carried a firearm.. to CHURCH.. in case things "got out of hand"..

Isn't this at least PARTIALLY troubling to anyone else but me?

I'll bet he STILL totes one to meetings..

no church with you, bub..

[Ham]

for the life of me.. I can't come up with a single "biblical" justification for brandishing a handgun on the way to a "church service"..

or putting an UNARMED "threat" to "gawd's ministry"- someone who just happens to know the inside goings on, and just wants to walk away- under ARMED GUARD- until they can figure out "what to do about" the individual..

and all of this.. is just the tip of the iceberg..

[Ham]

It's like.. what's he gonna do.. shoot someone who "slips up" with "tongues with interpretation" or something?

I wonder how many other "firearm toting thugs" were present at the same church meeting..

we weren't going to church- it was a meeting for the mob..

yep.. that's "the way it was"..

some just can't remember it all I guess..

[geisha779]

for the life of me.. I can't come up with a single "biblical" justification for brandishing a handgun on the way to a "church service"..

or putting an UNARMED "threat" to "gawd's ministry"- someone who just happens to know the inside goings on, and just wants to walk away- under ARMED GUARD- until they can figure out "what to do about" the individual..

and all of this.. is just the tip of the iceberg..

Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Carrying a gun to church doesn't quite fit the tone does it? The fact that it was made obvious(He was packing) to a room full of supposed clergy makes it even more bizarre.

What a twisted and morally bankrupt place Way World really is.

The antitithesis of Christian thought and the mirror image practice of all that the bible warns us against.

Yet there are some who still actually believe that such a group of unrepentant predators were given the truth about the hidden things of God.

More likely God hid it FROM them.

Edited November 9, 2008 by geisha779

[waysider]

This gun incident is a glaring illustration of how VP&Co. regarded the flawed "law of believing, believing=receiving, confess it/possess it, action verb, yada, yada" doctrine upon which the "ministry" was built. They didn't really believe all the scriptures about God being our shield, etc. or their mumbo-jumbo about getting revelation. No, they brandished firearms because they were painfully aware they had committed misdeeds that might provoke a victim to seek violent retribution. It's really just that simple.

edit

Don't forget, these are the same clowns who taught us that carrying a spare tire in the trunk was equal to "believing" for a flat. <_<

Edited November 9, 2008 by waysider

[Ham]

and I also wonder.. if they carried a couple cheap unregistered throwaways to cover cases their revelation that the guy who was a "threat" was packing just didn't pan out..

I would imagine SOMEBODY here knows..

I'm not thinking evil.. with what we DO know.. it's pretty logical question to ask..

[Tzaia]

It seems a lot of people joined TWI when they were young, or grew up in it, and didn't have an adult experience with a good church or fellowship of beleivers with good Bible teaching. When VPW said "you can only go as far as you've been taught," it applied very painfully to them especially. To see the world and the Word through the eyes of TWI is a warped view indeed, and many people have not yet gone very far beyond it.

VPW said, "You can't go any further than what you know." He also said, "Learn to read what's written on the page." I personally found those two sentences compelling, and I found it interesting that he said those things and then did opposite of what he said. What I found was that "what you know" was constrained to what was taught through TWI and "what's written on the page" was through the eyes of a TWI person who was "properly" instructed in "rightly dividing the Word" and supposedly not subject to "private interpretation." I chose to live by a more literal interpretation of what VPW said. I did my own study and came to my own conclusions, which were not the conclusions of TWI's "researchers." I was amazed at some of the conclusions, particularly the last book on Romans and submitting to authority, but I was never one to go along to get along.

JAL was raised in a decent, large, and affluent church, but I doubt if it was "on fire," as that's not a word used to describe Presbyterians. I'm sure TWI was far edgier at the time. However, I know a few people from his former church and they aren't as he described, but then again he hasn't been involved in that church since the 60s.

I didn't know JAL during his TWI days (although I knew his family fairly well), so I can't comment about how he was in TWI beyond how I hear he was with my husband over taking medication (which JAL apologized for doing). I also agree with how CES disciplined him. He was not involved with anyone in a predatory sexual activity category like what took place in TWI, but CES has taken a pretty firm stance on sexual purity and JAL chose to ignore that standard.

Out of the whole bunch at CES, JAL was the only one who has ever called me and asked me how I was doing and didn't want something in return. What I alway gave JAL was my listening ear and my honest opinion. I have told him on more than one occasion that he needed to step away from what he was doing to gain some sort of perspective. He could never bring himself to do that. Nevertheless, I do not doubt his sincerity, but based on that letter, he appears to be more and more isolated from the outside world, IMO.