and jl.. I think he forgot the "rules" of snake oilmanship.
1. Never, ever ever drop the product.. or admit to any legitimate aspersions cast on it.. if you have to, consume enough of it to convince oneself of it's supposed merits. Makes it easier to sell that way..
2. Sell, sell sell. As fast as one can, as much as one can. Strike while the iron is hot. If possible, get other "likeminded" individuals to assist you in the effort.
and lastly,
3. When the angry mob is approaching you from the last town or village- run like hell.
j.l. has proved to be a "master" of number one and two.. but defintely not number three..
well.. with the last couple of experiences as greasespot, maybe he's learned his lesson..
I really think that's what vic saw in him.. a ready made personality- fit the carnival "pitcher" role quite well..
the pathetic thing is how he still pitches.. it's like, that's all he really knows how to do..
You know vp didnt exactly lie when he said that it was the word that hasnt been known since the first century. I mean how many of Jesus' followers believed that 'believing = receiving'? That little piece of trash hadn't been known since the first century...at least I dont think it had. True it is a crock of you know what but it wasnt known. So I guess you could say that he wasnt lying...just not telling the truth. :blink:
Does anyone know if during those years where he was being encouraged to take part in TWI sexual shenanigans, did he ever try to change things for the better?
Did he ever confront Wierwille?
Did he ever lay his life on the line for the sake of God and the TWI victims?
Without these answers it all appears ssooo self serving on JALVIS' part. I cannot hardly believe that JL gave himself that nickname. That's what DWBH said Lynn did.
I don't think I would have liked the kind of Marine officer that Lynn might have been. But maybe Wierwille broke him!
Does anyone know if during those years where he was being encouraged to take part in TWI sexual shenanigans, did he ever try to change things for the better?
Did he ever confront Wierwille?
As far as I know, Lynn never confronted Wierwille concerning these matters and only protested AFTER he was fired...
was he a partaker of these "sexual shenanigans" during his twi days?...ask him.
When Lynn says that TWI was "an amazingly significant Christian movement," (P.4) it appears that he does not have a real picture of what such a Christian movement really is. A genuinely significant movement reaches large numbers of people over a long period of time, makes lasting changes in their spiritual lives, and centers on Jesus Christ.
To understand the difference between TWI and genuinely significant Christian movements, it would be helpful to compare TWI to some movements which began during the same time period as TWI and continue today, such as Calvary Chapel. Chuck Smith began the mother church in Costa Mesa, California in 1965. During a two-year period in the mid 70s, it performed over 8,000 baptisms and was instrumental in over 20,000 conversions to the Christian faith. It was success of groups like Calvary Chjapel that attracted VPW to California 3 years after CC was founded, in roder to swipe some followers and whisk them off to Ohio. The church now numbers 20,000, and perhaps 140,000 have counted it as their home church in the last 40 years -- more than the 100,000 people who apparently have taken TWI's foundational course (the average church adds 30% of its membership every five to seven years, though Calvary Chapel has probably well exceeded this given its prominence in Southern California). There are now 1,346 affiliate Calvary Chapels around the world, many of them local mega-churches such as Greg Laurie's Harvest Fellowship in Riverside, California which has a membership of 15,000 and does several Billy Graham-like crusades a year. Millions of Christians hear radio and television programs by Calvary Chapel pastors every year across the nation
Calvary Chapel founded Maranatha Music in 1971, which is the dominant force in worship music in the world today. Over 120,000 church leaders have attended their worship workshops and hundreds of millions of Christians around the world use Maranatha music in weekly worship. CC has had a major, ongoing impact by facilitating a new worship style in the Church around the world. It also had a major impact in promoting "nondenominational" Christianity (altho it amounts to a denomiantion). But it helped promote the "nondenominational" emphasis on the central tenets of the Christian faith with a de-emphasis of secondary doctrines that often distinguish denominations.
This is what "an amazingly significant Christian movement" is like, and comparing TWI to CC is like comparing a penlight to the sun.
One central difference between CC and TWI is that TWI promotes a "Teacher" and one regimented Organization, while CC promotes faith in Jesus Christ and love for their neighbors.
Does anyone know if during those years where he was being encouraged to take part in TWI sexual shenanigans, did he ever try to change things for the better?
Did he ever confront Wierwille?
Did he ever lay his life on the line for the sake of God and the TWI victims?
I would guess that question would apply to everyone including his armchair critics It is always amazing that everyone else gets a pass on speaking up ,because they were just too "intimidated" Golly Gee after all someone might call them a name or something. Perhaps the real question for many that goes unanswered is Why didn't you do it in your own life ,rather than worrying about what John did .
We brought Arrogant John out to CA to talk after all of the stuff was openly known. (sex etc. stuff)
John sat and told me how he was NEVER ever involved in any of it. He was very convincing. Only I KNEW he was and I confronted him and told him with WHOM he had had been "involved".
He asked, "Who else knows this?"
I said something like half or most of the 11th corps.
THEN
He came out with some sort-of acknowledgement letter or tape that he HAD been involved in it and how sorry he was or whatever. At the moment I just cannot recall, I think it was a letter. But to me, it looked as if he had no intentions of ever revealing his involvement let alone recanting its adversarial affects on the body of believers. HOWEVER AFTER, I put his feet to the fire then he had a “sudden” change of heart. Which makes me skeptical if it had anything to do with an issue of the heart or was more about his personal survival. (money, livelihood, what to do with his life, his profession as a minister if you will).
Since then, and many moons have transpired, he may have had a legitimate change of heart. I no longer know him and frankly he would be a stranger to me now.
I do not know if he is still arroagant or just looking for answers in the swamp lands like the rest of us.
Ex
I am glad you said that, I thought it was my 'puter. Mine is jumping as well. What is that?
Which makes me skeptical if it had anything to do with an issue of the heart or was more about his personal survival. (money, livelihood, what to do with his life, his profession as a minister if you will).
Yeah.. I think it's all about the money.. or position.
and he still seems to relish sitting in a chair somewhere, pontificating.. making pitches for "da word like it hasn't been known" since the earth cooled..
what a maroon..
life can't be very comfortable, wearing a dozen or so millstones about one's neck..
maybe he needs a couple more sessions of momentus, to dull the pain..
When Lynn says that TWI was "an amazingly significant Christian movement," (P.4) it appears that he does not have a real picture of what such a Christian movement really is. A genuinely significant movement reaches large numbers of people over a long period of time, makes lasting changes in their spiritual lives, and centers on Jesus Christ.
To understand the difference between TWI and genuinely significant Christian movements, it would be helpful to compare TWI to some movements which began during the same time period as TWI and continue today, such as Calvary Chapel. Chuck Smith began the mother church in Costa Mesa, California in 1965. During a two-year period in the mid 70s, it performed over 8,000 baptisms and was instrumental in over 20,000 conversions to the Christian faith. It was success of groups like Calvary Chjapel that attracted VPW to California 3 years after CC was founded, in roder to swipe some followers and whisk them off to Ohio. The church now numbers 20,000, and perhaps 140,000 have counted it as their home church in the last 40 years -- more than the 100,000 people who apparently have taken TWI's foundational course (the average church adds 30% of its membership every five to seven years, though Calvary Chapel has probably well exceeded this given its prominence in Southern California). There are now 1,346 affiliate Calvary Chapels around the world, many of them local mega-churches such as Greg Laurie's Harvest Fellowship in Riverside, California which has a membership of 15,000 and does several Billy Graham-like crusades a year. Millions of Christians hear radio and television programs by Calvary Chapel pastors every year across the nation
Calvary Chapel founded Maranatha Music in 1971, which is the dominant force in worship music in the world today. Over 120,000 church leaders have attended their worship workshops and hundreds of millions of Christians around the world use Maranatha music in weekly worship. CC has had a major, ongoing impact by facilitating a new worship style in the Church around the world. It also had a major impact in promoting "nondenominational" Christianity (altho it amounts to a denomiantion). But it helped promote the "nondenominational" emphasis on the central tenets of the Christian faith with a de-emphasis of secondary doctrines that often distinguish denominations.
This is what "an amazingly significant Christian movement" is like, and comparing TWI to CC is like comparing a penlight to the sun.
One central difference between CC and TWI is that TWI promotes a "Teacher" and one regimented Organization, while CC promotes faith in Jesus Christ and love for their neighbors.
I live in Southern California and have attended a CC Church in Redlands California. It is a very laid back church that teaches the Bible in a very straight forward and easily understood way. I very much enjoy the teaching, the music and the very non-judgemental flock of believers. I also have a very close friend who started a Calvary Chapel Church in South Carolina (he is not former TWI). He and I have had many discussions about our individual backgrounds and influences. I have never found him to be harshly critical of my past TWI involvement (over 23 years gone), only offering me help and inspiration in my growth as a brother in Christ. I would agree this is truly a significant Christian movement, particularly here in Southern California.
I also wanted to add that I grew up in Indiana and got involved in TWI while John Lynn was in charge. I do not have many bad memories from those days. I even attended some CES meetings after John started that organization in the mid 80's. It did not take me too long realize that CES was no where I wanted to be. Although, I always liked entire Lynn family. John just got suckered into the "gutter behavior" of leadership in the Way, IMHO.
I was in the D.C. area limb when John Lynn ran it.
I remember when this letter came out.
At the time, there were things I didn't like about how the limb was run and I thought there were mischaracterizations in the letter.
Sorry, folks, I am not going to be more specific.
Being aware of my own failings and those of others, as well as not having the chance to confront Mr. Lynn in person with my concerns at the time; I'm choosing to not jump on the bandwagon of those who want to continue attacking him lo all these decades later.
Back then there were others with whom I disagreed about this or that, and there were times when I got hurt.
It's been so long no, I feel no anger or anything else negative toward those other believers.
I'm just not able to carry that sot of baggage for that long a time and I am not envious of those who do.
I wish them all well, those with whom I disagreed with or had any problem with, those who were for or against Mr. Lynn, then and now.
I wish I could remember how long ago it was that I got over it all, but that, too, was so long ago I just can't recall when it was, other than to place it during the 20th Century.
I also wish others could get over it the way I have, but I understand that what comes easy to one person may be very difficult for others and vice versa.
I think it is worth pointing out that just saying "get over it" is npt too helpful to those still in the anger phase...
I understand why twi leaders want us to *just get over it* who the heck wants to be held accountable for the evil that they do?
I understand why they want folks to *just get over it* shoot, if folks talk about what a leader did it calls their credibility and the validity of their doctrine and belief system into question.
I understand why people would want other people to *just get over it* because when the horrors of experienceing being drugged and raped by vpw, or being forced into sexual servitude by lcm, or had their lives and reputations savaged and destroyed byleaders like John Lynn and the like just because they were having a bad day...was it Johm or LCM in charge of the corpes that threw Rochelle out to die after she sustained horrendous injuries as a result of ineptitude at lead?? Shrug, it really calls into question the validity of our entire belief system.
Much easier to *get over it* pretend that it was no big deal...that way one doesn`t need to address the ominous implications of a person or ministry that could commit such evil atrocities in God`s name. :(
I hope that there is an accounting to God one day for the harm that they did in his name. As far as I am concerned ...*to get over it* means to forget those who suffered and died at the hands of twi leaders...
I was in the D.C. area limb when John Lynn ran it.
I remember when this letter came out.
At the time, there were things I didn't like about how the limb was run and I thought there were mischaracterizations in the letter.
Sorry, folks, I am not going to be more specific.
Being aware of my own failings and those of others, as well as not having the chance to confront Mr. Lynn in person with my concerns at the time; I'm choosing to not jump on the bandwagon of those who want to continue attacking him lo all these decades later.
Back then there were others with whom I disagreed about this or that, and there were times when I got hurt.
It's been so long no, I feel no anger or anything else negative toward those other believers.
I'm just not able to carry that sot of baggage for that long a time and I am not envious of those who do.
I wish them all well, those with whom I disagreed with or had any problem with, those who were for or against Mr. Lynn, then and now.
I wish I could remember how long ago it was that I got over it all, but that, too, was so long ago I just can't recall when it was, other than to place it during the 20th Century.
I also wish others could get over it the way I have, but I understand that what comes easy to one person may be very difficult for others and vice versa.
I think it is worth pointing out that just saying "get over it" is not too helpful to those still in the anger phase...
I am beginning to think making that distinction is being a little too "generous"..
ohn sat and told me how he was NEVER ever involved in any of it. He was very convincing. Only I KNEW he was and I confronted him and told him with WHOM he had had been "involved".
Very convincing.. I wonder how many times he practiced this particular little spiel in front of a mirror..
and how many other spiels we are not even aware of..
Lynn can't think of any group of thousands of young people who go to spread the Word as TWI's WOW Ambassadors and Way Corps did. (Perhaps Lynn doesn't remember many WOWs, many of whom were immature, untrained refugees from college and no where near the gold standard he claims. TWI also set them up for sexual sin by placing single men and single women in the same house}. Apparently he isn't aware of Campus Crusade for Christ International (CCCI), InterVarsity Christian Fellowship (IVF) (which were founded in the same general time period TWI was) and similar organizations.
CCCI was founded by Bill Bright on the UCLA campus to reach students (www.ccci.org). There are now 25,000 staff members supported by donors (mainly full time) in 191 countries. In the last 50 years, hundreds of thousands of staff have spread the Word in campuses and communities.
IVCF serves 31,000 students and faculty on 580 campuses (www.intervarsity.org). They are served by 864 undergraduate chapters and 163 graduate or professional chapters led by 871 field staff. They reported 1,986 first time professions of faith in Jesus Christ in 2007 alone and worked on scores of mission projects around the world. InterVarsity Press publishes about 90 new books a year. Most major college campuses today have a CCCI or IVF group.
These groups lasted because they weren't built to promote the Founder and the Organization as TWI, but to lead people to Jesus Christ. They also had leaders of integrity.
I remember vic going on a rant in the seventies about Graham and Bright.. almost like they were staging a "conspiracy" to water down what he considered the word of god..
interesting in hindsight to see who reall watered down some standards..
Apparently he isn't aware of Campus Crusade for Christ International (CCCI), InterVarsity Christian Fellowship (IVF) (which were founded in the same general time period TWI was) and similar organizations.
I don't think he isn't aware of them as such, I think jl merely relegates their efforts as "second rate causes".
I think he is still immersed in his "father in the word"'s opinion regarding "mainstream" christianity, that they simply have nothing significant to offer, for over 2000 years.
Thinking one holds a package of "truth" like hasn't been known since the first century has produced some subtle and not so subtle kinds of arrogance and prejudice..
I think that the organizations you reference are the subject of the highest form of intellectual contempt and snubbery by jl, js, and company..
in their minds, if you worship a triume God, you are an idolater.. and nothing PRACTICAL you do in life can be done to "redeem" yourself..
this philosophy is the kind of "gold" they dredged out of the old organization..
there are a few consequences to supposedly thinking one holds absolute truth..
and they can debate you in circles around scripture.. it's what they "do" for a living.. they THRIVE on controversy and debate..
and conveniently forget, cover up, or minimize past sexual "indescretions", and raging abuse.. of their own selves, and others- "practical" issues which apparently sits in the back seat, and "da word like it hasn't been known" sits next to the driver..
and debate is like trying to pin down water. Even a simple inquiry like "what results", and I've seen hem-hawing and spin that would make a politician blush..
john sat and told me how he was NEVER ever involved in any of it. He was very convincing. Only I KNEW he was and I confronted him and told him with WHOM he had had been "involved".
Debate is futile. This kind of character can make an obvious falehood sound like it is God's honest truth..
you cannot know from one moment to the next, whether he's telling the truth, or not..
and his retort would be.. "big T truth, or little t.."
I think it extends way past the ordinary sinner, who tells "little white lies"..
I really think we are dealing with some seriously disturbed, dark souls here..
One of their own "heroes", E.W. Bullinger, who was a trinitarian by the way.. he said something like "look for the devil, in the pulpit.." forget wars, all kinds of other stuff..
I partly agree..
lynn, schoenheit.. et.al.. they didn't leave twi with the "gold".. I think they just left with the microphone..
fortunately, the world doesn't seem to be beating a path to their door..
I would guess that question would apply to everyone including his armchair critics It is always amazing that everyone else gets a pass on speaking up ,because they were just too "intimidated" Golly Gee after all someone might call them a name or something. Perhaps the real question for many that goes unanswered is Why didn't you do it in your own life ,rather than worrying about what John did .
Hehehe
Hey w.d.
I would have thought that you would be better than this at reading the posts of somebody that you do this too. After all, I remember you boasting about how good you are at remembering posts. A lot of my life I've shared here at the Greasespot. I assure you, I'm not talking outside of my own experience.
Dear Ham,
You could go on if you wanted too, I'd enjoy it. But if you have to rest and all
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Ham
Well..
and jl.. I think he forgot the "rules" of snake oilmanship.
1. Never, ever ever drop the product.. or admit to any legitimate aspersions cast on it.. if you have to, consume enough of it to convince oneself of it's supposed merits. Makes it easier to sell that way..
2. Sell, sell sell. As fast as one can, as much as one can. Strike while the iron is hot. If possible, get other "likeminded" individuals to assist you in the effort.
and lastly,
3. When the angry mob is approaching you from the last town or village- run like hell.
j.l. has proved to be a "master" of number one and two.. but defintely not number three..
well.. with the last couple of experiences as greasespot, maybe he's learned his lesson..
I really think that's what vic saw in him.. a ready made personality- fit the carnival "pitcher" role quite well..
the pathetic thing is how he still pitches.. it's like, that's all he really knows how to do..
maybe it's a hobby..
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Eyesopen
You know vp didnt exactly lie when he said that it was the word that hasnt been known since the first century. I mean how many of Jesus' followers believed that 'believing = receiving'? That little piece of trash hadn't been known since the first century...at least I dont think it had. True it is a crock of you know what but it wasnt known. So I guess you could say that he wasnt lying...just not telling the truth. :blink:
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JeffSjo
I read the Lynn letters.
Does anyone know if during those years where he was being encouraged to take part in TWI sexual shenanigans, did he ever try to change things for the better?
Did he ever confront Wierwille?
Did he ever lay his life on the line for the sake of God and the TWI victims?
Without these answers it all appears ssooo self serving on JALVIS' part. I cannot hardly believe that JL gave himself that nickname. That's what DWBH said Lynn did.
I don't think I would have liked the kind of Marine officer that Lynn might have been. But maybe Wierwille broke him!
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GrouchoMarxJr
As far as I know, Lynn never confronted Wierwille concerning these matters and only protested AFTER he was fired...
was he a partaker of these "sexual shenanigans" during his twi days?...ask him.
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johnj
When Lynn says that TWI was "an amazingly significant Christian movement," (P.4) it appears that he does not have a real picture of what such a Christian movement really is. A genuinely significant movement reaches large numbers of people over a long period of time, makes lasting changes in their spiritual lives, and centers on Jesus Christ.
To understand the difference between TWI and genuinely significant Christian movements, it would be helpful to compare TWI to some movements which began during the same time period as TWI and continue today, such as Calvary Chapel. Chuck Smith began the mother church in Costa Mesa, California in 1965. During a two-year period in the mid 70s, it performed over 8,000 baptisms and was instrumental in over 20,000 conversions to the Christian faith. It was success of groups like Calvary Chjapel that attracted VPW to California 3 years after CC was founded, in roder to swipe some followers and whisk them off to Ohio. The church now numbers 20,000, and perhaps 140,000 have counted it as their home church in the last 40 years -- more than the 100,000 people who apparently have taken TWI's foundational course (the average church adds 30% of its membership every five to seven years, though Calvary Chapel has probably well exceeded this given its prominence in Southern California). There are now 1,346 affiliate Calvary Chapels around the world, many of them local mega-churches such as Greg Laurie's Harvest Fellowship in Riverside, California which has a membership of 15,000 and does several Billy Graham-like crusades a year. Millions of Christians hear radio and television programs by Calvary Chapel pastors every year across the nation
Calvary Chapel founded Maranatha Music in 1971, which is the dominant force in worship music in the world today. Over 120,000 church leaders have attended their worship workshops and hundreds of millions of Christians around the world use Maranatha music in weekly worship. CC has had a major, ongoing impact by facilitating a new worship style in the Church around the world. It also had a major impact in promoting "nondenominational" Christianity (altho it amounts to a denomiantion). But it helped promote the "nondenominational" emphasis on the central tenets of the Christian faith with a de-emphasis of secondary doctrines that often distinguish denominations.
This is what "an amazingly significant Christian movement" is like, and comparing TWI to CC is like comparing a penlight to the sun.
One central difference between CC and TWI is that TWI promotes a "Teacher" and one regimented Organization, while CC promotes faith in Jesus Christ and love for their neighbors.
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WhiteDove
I would guess that question would apply to everyone including his armchair critics It is always amazing that everyone else gets a pass on speaking up ,because they were just too "intimidated" Golly Gee after all someone might call them a name or something. Perhaps the real question for many that goes unanswered is Why didn't you do it in your own life ,rather than worrying about what John did .
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Jeff
We brought Arrogant John out to CA to talk after all of the stuff was openly known. (sex etc. stuff)
John sat and told me how he was NEVER ever involved in any of it. He was very convincing. Only I KNEW he was and I confronted him and told him with WHOM he had had been "involved".
He asked, "Who else knows this?"
I said something like half or most of the 11th corps.
THEN
He came out with some sort-of acknowledgement letter or tape that he HAD been involved in it and how sorry he was or whatever. At the moment I just cannot recall, I think it was a letter. But to me, it looked as if he had no intentions of ever revealing his involvement let alone recanting its adversarial affects on the body of believers. HOWEVER AFTER, I put his feet to the fire then he had a “sudden” change of heart. Which makes me skeptical if it had anything to do with an issue of the heart or was more about his personal survival. (money, livelihood, what to do with his life, his profession as a minister if you will).
Since then, and many moons have transpired, he may have had a legitimate change of heart. I no longer know him and frankly he would be a stranger to me now.
I do not know if he is still arroagant or just looking for answers in the swamp lands like the rest of us.
Ex
I am glad you said that, I thought it was my 'puter. Mine is jumping as well. What is that?
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Ham
Makes me wonder how much more isn't known because we don't "need to know"..
In my estimation.. with the lack of honesty, he is entirely unqualified for any kind of "leadership" position..
I really think he did it to himself..
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Ham
Yeah.. I think it's all about the money.. or position.
and he still seems to relish sitting in a chair somewhere, pontificating.. making pitches for "da word like it hasn't been known" since the earth cooled..
what a maroon..
life can't be very comfortable, wearing a dozen or so millstones about one's neck..
maybe he needs a couple more sessions of momentus, to dull the pain..
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Calflor
I live in Southern California and have attended a CC Church in Redlands California. It is a very laid back church that teaches the Bible in a very straight forward and easily understood way. I very much enjoy the teaching, the music and the very non-judgemental flock of believers. I also have a very close friend who started a Calvary Chapel Church in South Carolina (he is not former TWI). He and I have had many discussions about our individual backgrounds and influences. I have never found him to be harshly critical of my past TWI involvement (over 23 years gone), only offering me help and inspiration in my growth as a brother in Christ. I would agree this is truly a significant Christian movement, particularly here in Southern California.
I also wanted to add that I grew up in Indiana and got involved in TWI while John Lynn was in charge. I do not have many bad memories from those days. I even attended some CES meetings after John started that organization in the mid 80's. It did not take me too long realize that CES was no where I wanted to be. Although, I always liked entire Lynn family. John just got suckered into the "gutter behavior" of leadership in the Way, IMHO.
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Deciderator
I was in the D.C. area limb when John Lynn ran it.
I remember when this letter came out.
At the time, there were things I didn't like about how the limb was run and I thought there were mischaracterizations in the letter.
Sorry, folks, I am not going to be more specific.
Being aware of my own failings and those of others, as well as not having the chance to confront Mr. Lynn in person with my concerns at the time; I'm choosing to not jump on the bandwagon of those who want to continue attacking him lo all these decades later.
Back then there were others with whom I disagreed about this or that, and there were times when I got hurt.
It's been so long no, I feel no anger or anything else negative toward those other believers.
I'm just not able to carry that sot of baggage for that long a time and I am not envious of those who do.
I wish them all well, those with whom I disagreed with or had any problem with, those who were for or against Mr. Lynn, then and now.
I wish I could remember how long ago it was that I got over it all, but that, too, was so long ago I just can't recall when it was, other than to place it during the 20th Century.
I also wish others could get over it the way I have, but I understand that what comes easy to one person may be very difficult for others and vice versa.
I think it is worth pointing out that just saying "get over it" is npt too helpful to those still in the anger phase...
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rascal
*just get over it* = live in denial like ME!! :)
I understand why twi leaders want us to *just get over it* who the heck wants to be held accountable for the evil that they do?
I understand why they want folks to *just get over it* shoot, if folks talk about what a leader did it calls their credibility and the validity of their doctrine and belief system into question.
I understand why people would want other people to *just get over it* because when the horrors of experienceing being drugged and raped by vpw, or being forced into sexual servitude by lcm, or had their lives and reputations savaged and destroyed byleaders like John Lynn and the like just because they were having a bad day...was it Johm or LCM in charge of the corpes that threw Rochelle out to die after she sustained horrendous injuries as a result of ineptitude at lead?? Shrug, it really calls into question the validity of our entire belief system.
Much easier to *get over it* pretend that it was no big deal...that way one doesn`t need to address the ominous implications of a person or ministry that could commit such evil atrocities in God`s name. :(
I hope that there is an accounting to God one day for the harm that they did in his name. As far as I am concerned ...*to get over it* means to forget those who suffered and died at the hands of twi leaders...
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Ham
I am beginning to think making that distinction is being a little too "generous"..
Very convincing.. I wonder how many times he practiced this particular little spiel in front of a mirror..
and how many other spiels we are not even aware of..
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Ham
Now.. consider, we have a character.. very "convincing".. and it is because HAD to "practice" LIES, to be convincing to that degree..
OR
simply being able to "naturally" spout lies and falsehoods.. in such a convincing manner, unrehearsed..
either way, I wouldn't trust him with my spiritual life..
and this is a guy, who claims he holds "truth"..
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excathedra
i wouldn't trust any "man" (all inclusive noun lol) with my spiritual life
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johnj
Lynn can't think of any group of thousands of young people who go to spread the Word as TWI's WOW Ambassadors and Way Corps did. (Perhaps Lynn doesn't remember many WOWs, many of whom were immature, untrained refugees from college and no where near the gold standard he claims. TWI also set them up for sexual sin by placing single men and single women in the same house}. Apparently he isn't aware of Campus Crusade for Christ International (CCCI), InterVarsity Christian Fellowship (IVF) (which were founded in the same general time period TWI was) and similar organizations.
CCCI was founded by Bill Bright on the UCLA campus to reach students (www.ccci.org). There are now 25,000 staff members supported by donors (mainly full time) in 191 countries. In the last 50 years, hundreds of thousands of staff have spread the Word in campuses and communities.
IVCF serves 31,000 students and faculty on 580 campuses (www.intervarsity.org). They are served by 864 undergraduate chapters and 163 graduate or professional chapters led by 871 field staff. They reported 1,986 first time professions of faith in Jesus Christ in 2007 alone and worked on scores of mission projects around the world. InterVarsity Press publishes about 90 new books a year. Most major college campuses today have a CCCI or IVF group.
These groups lasted because they weren't built to promote the Founder and the Organization as TWI, but to lead people to Jesus Christ. They also had leaders of integrity.
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Ham
I remember vic going on a rant in the seventies about Graham and Bright.. almost like they were staging a "conspiracy" to water down what he considered the word of god..
interesting in hindsight to see who reall watered down some standards..
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Ham
I don't think he isn't aware of them as such, I think jl merely relegates their efforts as "second rate causes".
I think he is still immersed in his "father in the word"'s opinion regarding "mainstream" christianity, that they simply have nothing significant to offer, for over 2000 years.
Thinking one holds a package of "truth" like hasn't been known since the first century has produced some subtle and not so subtle kinds of arrogance and prejudice..
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Ham
I think that the organizations you reference are the subject of the highest form of intellectual contempt and snubbery by jl, js, and company..
in their minds, if you worship a triume God, you are an idolater.. and nothing PRACTICAL you do in life can be done to "redeem" yourself..
this philosophy is the kind of "gold" they dredged out of the old organization..
there are a few consequences to supposedly thinking one holds absolute truth..
and they can debate you in circles around scripture.. it's what they "do" for a living.. they THRIVE on controversy and debate..
and conveniently forget, cover up, or minimize past sexual "indescretions", and raging abuse.. of their own selves, and others- "practical" issues which apparently sits in the back seat, and "da word like it hasn't been known" sits next to the driver..
and debate is like trying to pin down water. Even a simple inquiry like "what results", and I've seen hem-hawing and spin that would make a politician blush..
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Ham
Debate is futile. This kind of character can make an obvious falehood sound like it is God's honest truth..
you cannot know from one moment to the next, whether he's telling the truth, or not..
and his retort would be.. "big T truth, or little t.."
I think it extends way past the ordinary sinner, who tells "little white lies"..
I really think we are dealing with some seriously disturbed, dark souls here..
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Ham
One of their own "heroes", E.W. Bullinger, who was a trinitarian by the way.. he said something like "look for the devil, in the pulpit.." forget wars, all kinds of other stuff..
I partly agree..
lynn, schoenheit.. et.al.. they didn't leave twi with the "gold".. I think they just left with the microphone..
fortunately, the world doesn't seem to be beating a path to their door..
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Ham
and, one last post, and I'll rest a while..
I really really think.. he's got so many foul, dark, evil deeds done in secret invested in the old ministry, that he just CAN'T be objective.
same for geer.. and some others.
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JeffSjo
Hehehe
Hey w.d.
I would have thought that you would be better than this at reading the posts of somebody that you do this too. After all, I remember you boasting about how good you are at remembering posts. A lot of my life I've shared here at the Greasespot. I assure you, I'm not talking outside of my own experience.
Dear Ham,
You could go on if you wanted too, I'd enjoy it. But if you have to rest and all
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