IMO, LSG (Lynn, Schoenheit, Graeser) might have put together a doctrinal collection that is somewhat worse than the collection of the old heresiarch himself. Which of Wierwille’s errors, heresies, and damnable heresies did LSG give up?
LSG retained Wierwille’s dispensationalism, Wierwille’s soul-sleep, Wierwille’s psilanthropism, Wierwille’s Unitarianism, and one or more of them seemed to outdo Wierwille in contempt for God’s sovereignty by journeying from Wierwille’s view of God as passive yet omniscient into open theism.
You and D. A. Reed are the only theologically capable non-TWI ministerial figures I can think of who have posted critiques of TWI teachings on ex-Wayfer forums.
We have a new article examining Lynn’s extremely rosy view of TWI at www.abouttheway.org
click on "New" to find the link
Just an FYI. Don't create a web site that has to use IE to work. Not only is it annoying, but it's rather controlling. It's a frames page, which is so 20th century.
Just an FYI. Don't create a web site that has to use IE to work. Not only is it annoying, but it's rather controlling. It's a frames page, which is so 20th century.
I agree frames are outdated, but I can generally navigate them just fine. was the site built to reject all browsers except IE? if so, that leaves us mac usin'/firefox lovin' people out in the cold.
I agree frames are outdated, but I can generally navigate them just fine. was the site built to reject all browsers except IE? if so, that leaves us mac usin'/firefox lovin' people out in the cold.
Unless one is designing for .NET or using ActiveX controls, there's no need to do what has been done on that site.
John Lynn also lauds the "biblical research" of TWI. Ironically, he states that it taught the Word as it had not been known since the first century, while also admitting that most of it was plagiarized from others, esp E. W. Bullinger. You can't have it both ways- as unknown for 2,000 years, and as the result of stealing others' writings.
The most outstanding characteristic of TWI's biblical research is that is it unknown. If you ask 10,000 people on the street who V. P. Wierwille is, what TWI is and what books they published, you'll get 10,000 blank stares. Regardless of what field of research, quality researchers are known. Wierwille's "research" is unknown because it is extremely poor.
Lynn claims that TWI had much more impact than the Reformation. Yet Luther and the Reformation impacts every Christian today. Christians sing hymns and songs that have verses because the Reformation popularized this kind of congregational signing which was essentially unknown before then (called "bar" tunes not because they were sung in saloons, but because they have short bars, or verses, that are repeated). More non-Lutherans than Lutherans read Martin Luther today. His biblical teachings on the Word of God being the sole rule for faith and practice and on grace and faith dominate the Christian church today, 500 years later. We continue to translate the Bible into native languages because Luther launched this practice with his German Bible, which is still in use today. By contrast, Wierwille is unknown. True movements of God are not cloistered in just a few acres of northwestern Ohio.
PS: Don't read too much into how the abouttheway.org home page is built. I put it together on PowerPoint and didn't know it had technical limitations when converted to html
Lynn claims that TWI had much more impact than the Reformation. Yet Luther and the Reformation impacts every Christian today.
Lynn would have been more accurate to compare Wierwille to Jim Jones or David Koresh...the main difference was that twi avoided the mass killings and thus the notoriety. I would ask Mr Lynn how he reconciles Wierwille's dishonest and hedonistic lifestyle to the standards that are set in the book of Timothy for Christian leadership...bad tree, good fruit?
...I'm actually surprised to see Lynn endearing himself to the myth of the "snow on the gas pumps" story...this was when Vic claimed that God spoke to him audibly and told him that he would teach him the word as it had not been known since the 1st century...but in reality, Vic simply lifted the works of others (oftentimes, word for word) and passed it off as his own research.
The question that remains is did God really speak to VPW that day...There are only 3 possible answers:
1-Yes
2-No, but Wierwille thought he did because he's a nut case
JAL doesn't get out in the world much. I can only imagine that his brother's funeral was his first church experience in many years, so his perspective is very narrow.
I would bet he analyzed the minister's message for biblical "errors"..
of course he did, brother Ham. EVERYONE did once you got through enough classes. we analyzed every conversation, every TV commercial, every christmas card looking for the devil's insidious messages.
Lynn would have been more accurate to compare Wierwille to Jim Jones or David Koresh...the main difference was that twi avoided the mass killings and thus the notoriety. I would ask Mr Lynn how he reconciles Wierwille's dishonest and hedonistic lifestyle to the standards that are set in the book of Timothy for Christian leadership...bad tree, good fruit?
...I'm actually surprised to see Lynn endearing himself to the myth of the "snow on the gas pumps" story...this was when Vic claimed that God spoke to him audibly and told him that he would teach him the word as it had not been known since the 1st century...but in reality, Vic simply lifted the works of others (oftentimes, word for word) and passed it off as his own research.
The question that remains is did God really speak to VPW that day...There are only 3 possible answers:
1-Yes
2-No, but Wierwille thought he did because he's a nut case
Lynn's letter consider TWI's "research" including its teaching that Jesus Christ is Not God as its flagship achievement. But apparently Lynn does not actually consider TWI research to be worthy of any notice whatsoever. Lynn co-wrote an anti-Trinitarian book called One God and One Lord. But Lynn never once quotes or even mentions JCING. There are 122 books in the bibliography, but it lists not even one by Wierwille or TWI. If Wierwille and TWI were such powerhouses of biblical research they would have to be quoted repeatedly.
It is easy to see why Lynn is ashamed of JCING. This "research" book on the most important topic in the Christian faith- who Jesus Christ is- is less than 33,000 words long, and its only footnotes are in chpater 1 (which VP didn't write). This is several thousand words less than there are in a single issue of a magazine like Newsweek. Lynn even contradicts or rejects many arguments used in JCING.
Jesus Christ is not God did not convince anyone by sound logic or use of Scripture. Wayers accepted JCING in totality because they totally accepted everything Wierwille said because they believed he was "The Man of God for our day and time" who taught and spoke by revelation. It was not important what JCING said- only that Wierwille said it. They accepted what Wierwille said with blind devotion much as early Mormons accepted polygamy and six-foot tall residents on the moon because their "Prophet" Joseph Smith said so. Cult followers like TWI dutifully obey their leaders while deceiving themselves into thinking that they are thinking for themselves.
Lynn and other Wayers accepted Wierwille's writings as sound research (even revelation) because he was "The Man of God," not because it was quality research. Lynn even today parrots Wierwille's lines including "the Word as it had not been known since the first century," which were words of Wierwille. Many ex-Wayers continue to live by "The Man of God" myth even while superficially denying it.
Johnj I cant agree. The reason I was attracted to twi was the fact they stated Jesus was NOT God, the baptist church I was raised in always taught Jesus christ is the son of god and twi theology flowed nicely with my ideals.
Also while it may be true initialy Johnl went hook line and sinker on what vpw wrote as doctrine of bible research I believe when they got fired they were very angry middle age men with no hope of getting on with the only job they knew in life.
so to bring in the others who had been thrown out and such they needed to stay on topic with doctrine or few would have fell in line with them so readily .
now I know GS population will put the old hands on the hips and shout diffferent , yet consider in 1987 (I was there) people were in a much different mood about the shake up than the bold declaration of freedom from the cult mentality.
some just wanted another group to carry on what they knew as truth and lifestyle . So John S and JOHNL filled a need and marketed it very carefullly and won those who felt it was the only way to worship God. very few walked or got kicked out of twi and said well now IM at peace and all is well with my mind and God many were confused angry and lost in those years either becuase of the ministry itself or the damage being involved had done to their personal and family life.
Since then it has been well documented on GS about the ideas and different ministrys they chose to align with, some with serious damaging results. They did try different theorys on who and what and bible and God and all they do.. but in that process of rebellion lost some of the core believers and "partners " who bottom line fulldilled the need for money so they have to pull or lose the very ones who have supported their ministry from its beginning. Those are the folks who learned many years ago to give $ or eles even if it isnt declared out loud it is like one of those teachings those in the real knowledge what JOHNLYNN calls and I qoute "super OCTANE christians". will DO>
and they are very important to them. hello.
I will write here my opinion on JOHNL and i do hope your reading JOHN you know who I am, the manner in whcih you catorgize and label and decide who has more spiritual awareness and [power because of "the word" you have taught is just wrong, but it is effective because it feeds your ego of being a good worker for God better than the rest I suppose.
I do not believe it , I think it fills YOUR NEEDS more than God to sell this idea of "super octane and Levels of christian followers of christ. I could give you bible verses to support my comment |But you would beat the crap out of me with you super spin of words you interperate differently from the bible and then dismiss me as worthless. it is a pattern that ministry has played for years and just when some begin to notice you spew a softer gentler teaching that calms down the concern and plays into the whole cult mentality of group think. you fool no one really.
YES the screen is jumping I think it is because of the shout box it is bad bad .
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waysider
Good points, johnj
Kinda brings to mind the old cynical remark-----"But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, what did you think of the play?"
The Way was scarcely a blip in the history of New Knoxville, much less the history of Christianity.
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potato
all I got for abouttheway.org is a blank page.
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Cynic
IMO, LSG (Lynn, Schoenheit, Graeser) might have put together a doctrinal collection that is somewhat worse than the collection of the old heresiarch himself. Which of Wierwille’s errors, heresies, and damnable heresies did LSG give up?
LSG retained Wierwille’s dispensationalism, Wierwille’s soul-sleep, Wierwille’s psilanthropism, Wierwille’s Unitarianism, and one or more of them seemed to outdo Wierwille in contempt for God’s sovereignty by journeying from Wierwille’s view of God as passive yet omniscient into open theism.
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Cynic
By the way, John, thanks for your efforts.
You and D. A. Reed are the only theologically capable non-TWI ministerial figures I can think of who have posted critiques of TWI teachings on ex-Wayfer forums.
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Tzaia
Just an FYI. Don't create a web site that has to use IE to work. Not only is it annoying, but it's rather controlling. It's a frames page, which is so 20th century.
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potato
I agree frames are outdated, but I can generally navigate them just fine. was the site built to reject all browsers except IE? if so, that leaves us mac usin'/firefox lovin' people out in the cold.
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Tzaia
Unless one is designing for .NET or using ActiveX controls, there's no need to do what has been done on that site.
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Ham
"The Way, it Was.."
a mythical illusion.. j.l.'s illusion just happens to be a little more realistic to him than reality..
other than that, I dunno.
it was an illusion.. of when one had the secrets of the universe at one's command..
the promise of moghood.. provided one stayed on the "right" path..
then the acid wore off..
well, for some, maybe it never did..
OK Garth.. it's all yours..
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johnj
John Lynn also lauds the "biblical research" of TWI. Ironically, he states that it taught the Word as it had not been known since the first century, while also admitting that most of it was plagiarized from others, esp E. W. Bullinger. You can't have it both ways- as unknown for 2,000 years, and as the result of stealing others' writings.
The most outstanding characteristic of TWI's biblical research is that is it unknown. If you ask 10,000 people on the street who V. P. Wierwille is, what TWI is and what books they published, you'll get 10,000 blank stares. Regardless of what field of research, quality researchers are known. Wierwille's "research" is unknown because it is extremely poor.
Lynn claims that TWI had much more impact than the Reformation. Yet Luther and the Reformation impacts every Christian today. Christians sing hymns and songs that have verses because the Reformation popularized this kind of congregational signing which was essentially unknown before then (called "bar" tunes not because they were sung in saloons, but because they have short bars, or verses, that are repeated). More non-Lutherans than Lutherans read Martin Luther today. His biblical teachings on the Word of God being the sole rule for faith and practice and on grace and faith dominate the Christian church today, 500 years later. We continue to translate the Bible into native languages because Luther launched this practice with his German Bible, which is still in use today. By contrast, Wierwille is unknown. True movements of God are not cloistered in just a few acres of northwestern Ohio.
PS: Don't read too much into how the abouttheway.org home page is built. I put it together on PowerPoint and didn't know it had technical limitations when converted to html
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GarthP2000
Ham,
?? :blink: Huh? ... Care to fill me in?
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GrouchoMarxJr
Lynn would have been more accurate to compare Wierwille to Jim Jones or David Koresh...the main difference was that twi avoided the mass killings and thus the notoriety. I would ask Mr Lynn how he reconciles Wierwille's dishonest and hedonistic lifestyle to the standards that are set in the book of Timothy for Christian leadership...bad tree, good fruit?
...I'm actually surprised to see Lynn endearing himself to the myth of the "snow on the gas pumps" story...this was when Vic claimed that God spoke to him audibly and told him that he would teach him the word as it had not been known since the 1st century...but in reality, Vic simply lifted the works of others (oftentimes, word for word) and passed it off as his own research.
The question that remains is did God really speak to VPW that day...There are only 3 possible answers:
1-Yes
2-No, but Wierwille thought he did because he's a nut case
3-No, but Wierwille lied and said he did.
I vote for number 3.
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Ham
I saw you were reading the topic, figured you'd say something.
see, I was right..
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Tzaia
JAL doesn't get out in the world much. I can only imagine that his brother's funeral was his first church experience in many years, so his perspective is very narrow.
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Ham
I would bet he analyzed the minister's message for biblical "errors"..
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potato
of course he did, brother Ham. EVERYONE did once you got through enough classes. we analyzed every conversation, every TV commercial, every christmas card looking for the devil's insidious messages.
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doojable
I forget... was it Gawd or the Debbil that's in the details?....
So much time wasted on so little importance...
TWI blew chunks. As far as I know, so do the offshoots. JAL just tried to cover the vomit with a blanket of rose petals.
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oldiesman
I wish him well.
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Ham
Yeah..
and it's such an insidious doctrine, that denigrates others belief systems and grieving process..
regards it as primitive, or uninformed, biblically uneducated.. or at it's worst, regarding the belief to be a result of possession..
It's not about the specific veyy belief that the dead are "dead" and unconscious..
it's the arrogance..
we, or at least I couldn't go to a stinking funeral without thinking evil of another..
I think it stopped the grieving process..
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
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excathedra
i wish everyone well but what the heck does that have to do with much of anything
ps. my screen is jumping -- it's really annoying
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johnj
Lynn's letter consider TWI's "research" including its teaching that Jesus Christ is Not God as its flagship achievement. But apparently Lynn does not actually consider TWI research to be worthy of any notice whatsoever. Lynn co-wrote an anti-Trinitarian book called One God and One Lord. But Lynn never once quotes or even mentions JCING. There are 122 books in the bibliography, but it lists not even one by Wierwille or TWI. If Wierwille and TWI were such powerhouses of biblical research they would have to be quoted repeatedly.
It is easy to see why Lynn is ashamed of JCING. This "research" book on the most important topic in the Christian faith- who Jesus Christ is- is less than 33,000 words long, and its only footnotes are in chpater 1 (which VP didn't write). This is several thousand words less than there are in a single issue of a magazine like Newsweek. Lynn even contradicts or rejects many arguments used in JCING.
Jesus Christ is not God did not convince anyone by sound logic or use of Scripture. Wayers accepted JCING in totality because they totally accepted everything Wierwille said because they believed he was "The Man of God for our day and time" who taught and spoke by revelation. It was not important what JCING said- only that Wierwille said it. They accepted what Wierwille said with blind devotion much as early Mormons accepted polygamy and six-foot tall residents on the moon because their "Prophet" Joseph Smith said so. Cult followers like TWI dutifully obey their leaders while deceiving themselves into thinking that they are thinking for themselves.
Lynn and other Wayers accepted Wierwille's writings as sound research (even revelation) because he was "The Man of God," not because it was quality research. Lynn even today parrots Wierwille's lines including "the Word as it had not been known since the first century," which were words of Wierwille. Many ex-Wayers continue to live by "The Man of God" myth even while superficially denying it.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...and the contradiction is glaring.
My screen is also jumping...but only on this website...Techies?
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pond
Johnj I cant agree. The reason I was attracted to twi was the fact they stated Jesus was NOT God, the baptist church I was raised in always taught Jesus christ is the son of god and twi theology flowed nicely with my ideals.
Also while it may be true initialy Johnl went hook line and sinker on what vpw wrote as doctrine of bible research I believe when they got fired they were very angry middle age men with no hope of getting on with the only job they knew in life.
so to bring in the others who had been thrown out and such they needed to stay on topic with doctrine or few would have fell in line with them so readily .
now I know GS population will put the old hands on the hips and shout diffferent , yet consider in 1987 (I was there) people were in a much different mood about the shake up than the bold declaration of freedom from the cult mentality.
some just wanted another group to carry on what they knew as truth and lifestyle . So John S and JOHNL filled a need and marketed it very carefullly and won those who felt it was the only way to worship God. very few walked or got kicked out of twi and said well now IM at peace and all is well with my mind and God many were confused angry and lost in those years either becuase of the ministry itself or the damage being involved had done to their personal and family life.
Since then it has been well documented on GS about the ideas and different ministrys they chose to align with, some with serious damaging results. They did try different theorys on who and what and bible and God and all they do.. but in that process of rebellion lost some of the core believers and "partners " who bottom line fulldilled the need for money so they have to pull or lose the very ones who have supported their ministry from its beginning. Those are the folks who learned many years ago to give $ or eles even if it isnt declared out loud it is like one of those teachings those in the real knowledge what JOHNLYNN calls and I qoute "super OCTANE christians". will DO>
and they are very important to them. hello.
I will write here my opinion on JOHNL and i do hope your reading JOHN you know who I am, the manner in whcih you catorgize and label and decide who has more spiritual awareness and [power because of "the word" you have taught is just wrong, but it is effective because it feeds your ego of being a good worker for God better than the rest I suppose.
I do not believe it , I think it fills YOUR NEEDS more than God to sell this idea of "super octane and Levels of christian followers of christ. I could give you bible verses to support my comment |But you would beat the crap out of me with you super spin of words you interperate differently from the bible and then dismiss me as worthless. it is a pattern that ministry has played for years and just when some begin to notice you spew a softer gentler teaching that calms down the concern and plays into the whole cult mentality of group think. you fool no one really.
YES the screen is jumping I think it is because of the shout box it is bad bad .
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Ham
I think it's almost like a carnival atmosphere.. "hurray hurry hurrray.. come get da word like it hasn't been known since da firsta centurayy.."
and don't bother the guy barking out the announcement with any bothersome questions.. he's there for one and only one purpose- to sell.
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