love has never failed me when trying to help someone
could be because i'm in the bottom of the valley
Love is the commandment of Jesus christ.
Paul talks about SIT as his wish it is not a commandment of our Lord.
Twi exalted sit above the very commandment of Jesus. because it was a "operation" a manifestation of what a PERSON can do.
the more i look at the teaching and core of twi it was always about what people could do to appear very showy and capable of being like God.
very little about what or how Jesus lived by example in his very human life.
the bible talks about not looking for signs but to have trust in God SIT was s sign , oh I know all you "prayer warriors wont like to consider this as possible because it does feed the ego to think well i prayed so the mircle or whatever was all about my prayers and ability to talk god (in a strange and unknown words to me no less) into doing something.
you feel powerful and able and you know JUST GODLY.
well Jesus is the ONLY one who died. the only one who truly loved mankind and Gods children. for me to be thankful for the idea that this whole story could be true and we end up living eternaly never having to die is to love a Jesus did. a little speaking in toungues really doesnt compare.
I believe Jesus was correct when he commanded we love one another as HE loved us.
but that is not as easy as sit in giving a word of prophecy, is it? nor does it feed a person mind with the thought they cant be hurt God is IN THEM and one is all powerful .
it turned folks into down right christian bullies. far removed from what Jesus said we are to do.
and when i first heard it at the rock it never sat well with me it seemed to dismiss what and who Jesus christ was and is today.
i really think many still believe they are mini Jesus christ running around the world saving people from the devil .
your not even close.
says who?
GOD ALMIGHTY thats who.
so we are left with one ability and that is to continue to love one another and no one has a virgin mom or God having cosmic sex with mom so to me the idea is to stay very aware of the fact it is indeed the grace of God we are even able to love one another.
and you what?
love hurts for the mostpart all of us have been hurt damaged or greived because we have loved another even if it just becuase they have died .
love isnt easy, sit in toungues, thinking you can do ALL things and have super powers is. those who deny God do it all the time.
and the last limb coordinator I had the "pleasure" to serve under.. the most intellectual and logical conversation we had was about how in da corps, he learned how to be careful as to not mix bread and vegetables in his diet.. so as to avert gastrointestinal disaster..
I'm really not joking here..
I think this was about the time I suspected things weren't exactly in a good kind of shape as I thought..
"Valley of human need"? I suppose he thought he was saving wayfers needless agony from ulcers, colitis.. etc..
with the "greatness" of what he learned at the feet of the "master"..
2) Your now current view as to what you expect to see & who you now hold forth GOD''s Word to out of nothing more or less than God's love.
Not concerned about product or how "HURT" you still are or how pi$$ed off at TWI.
How about some focus people... :blink:
You want to rant-do it elsewhere. Please, help a brother out by giving constructive input. No more Jerry Mcguire comisserating divorcee' type posts please.
I'm not the greatest communicator, but I'm trying to get an honest sample on a specific area without being derailed in my effort.
2) Your now current view as to what you expect to see & who you now hold forth GOD''s Word to out of nothing more or less than God's love.
Not concerned about product or how "HURT" you still are or how pi$$ed off at TWI.
How about some focus people... :blink:
You want to rant-do it elsewhere. Please, help a brother out by giving constructive input. No more Jerry Mcguire comisserating divorcee' type posts please.
I'm not the greatest communicator, but I'm trying to get an honest sample on a specific area without being derailed in my effort.
well hell, freedombound, it's nice that you chimed in with your expectations after flogging me over posting the "wrong" kind of response.
this is the "about the way" section. maybe posting in "open" would get you what you want. posting here is an open invitation for people to relate their experiences back to TWI.
but here, I'll try to answer your question anyway, in the context of the topic "about the way" and the fact I spent 20 years as a member:
1) Your similar experiences witnessing.
similar to what? TWI's version of witnessing was a bunch of BS multi-level marketing. it was so painful that I refuse to witness and I won't go to church because I can't stand whitewashed christian "love". since leaving twi and their hypocrisy, I do, however, make sure I stand up for what I believe is right.
2) Your now current view as to what you expect to see & who you now hold forth GOD''s Word to out of nothing more or less than God's love.
I don't hold forth god's word. I do give people as much respect as I can, and love if they need it. I don't expect anything from it, I just hope that if I hold out my hand with empathy when someone needs it, it'll give them the strength to carry on.
LET'S KEEP IT FOCUSED ON YOUR EXPERIENCES IN THE VALLEY & THE LESSONS LEARNED DOWN THERE!!!
Hmm, okay. Stated and heard. I got a different view of what you were saying at the start. It was more of a statement than a query for experiences and what was learned by them. In general I'd agree, but as Mike stated that won't apply to everyone, at all times, everywhere. It simply won't, so some clarification is good.
F'instance, you mention "Way Disciples" - that's years after I left the Way and my knee-jerk reaction to that era isn't one of high regard. Yet, you pose a question now that indicates there was some substance going on, some legitimate interest in helping others with your Christian message, and perhaps not only from you but others. A conflict like you describe could only occur if there was.
I had the opportunity to meet many, many people while I was in the Way. I would define the "valley" of human need as simply the human condition. I have a saying - life sucks when it isn't cool. And it sucks most of the time for a large percentage of the people on this planet. Life, on the other hand, doesn't suck when it is cool. Unfortunately if I wait around long enough, the meter will jump up and down. Keeping it in one generally "cool" area can be quite a challenge.
So my point is - of course anyone who intends to work intimately with people and be involved closely with their lives is going to see some serious uncoolness, problems of every ilk and stripe and a lot of generally bad hoodoo that will rob you of a lot of sleep if you start to think about it late at night. The world can be a very weird place, I've found, IMO.
And a lot of Wayfers, while well intentioned, have gotten themselves in over their head time and again because they're not built or prepared to embrace someone in true darkness and not fumble their flashlight.
It's better to not get involved if you don't want to get dirty. And that's the rub - the truth is that not everyone is really cut out for it that wants to. And it can be very difficult to find someone who doesn't mind getting your dirt on them long enough to lend a hand when push really comes to shove. I don't blame those who don't or can't, but I do have a really bad vibe for those who b.s. it or use the opportunity for personal gain. I have a message for them - and they're not going to like it.
Anyhoo, I do have some lessons learned along these lines, I promise to revisit later. :)
About witnessing.....my baby taught me what that is. When he was 4 years old we were joking around and I said, "Yeh, how do you know I love you?" He said, "Because of the way you treat me." Floored me. Out of the mouths of babes. I was taught another time when a woman, who frequented my restaurant asked me to pray for her mother. I had never spoken the Word of God or mentioned the name Jesus Christ to her. She said, "I know you are a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ by your actions."
I was studying some stuff at the time (these 2 incidents took place within one week of each other) and Father taught me so much. You don't have to quote scripture to be a witness. Our actions can speak louder than words. Then again, you can hear words out of someone's mouth and figger where they are coming from.
Lawdy, hassa muuhhsee.....go beyond the valley of human need. Get down and be down in the trenches of life with and for people. Even if people never get saved, reject us....we are to love them... no matter what. Jesus Christ lived down and dirty in the trenches of life. He lived it all. For God so loved the world.....He knew that His chosen would reject His Son, their Promised Messiah. Duz, ya think the Lord Christ knew that Israel rejected HIM. Yet, with His last breath (Psalm 22) He was down in the trenches, in the valley of human need, for the chosen to recognize their Promise. He never gave up on people. Some dude named Peter comes to mind.
I know of a truth, that twi gave lip service concerning this. Yet, I must say in our own little world of home fellowship we were involved with folks. The nuttier they were the more we loved them. They were right at home with us and we with them. I must say it still holds true for me today.
Hmm Freedombound, you don`t want to hear about problems with the *product* and you don`t want to hear about peoples pain, and you don`t want to hear about anger over abuse and cruel treatment.
Excuse me for asking, but just what is it that you feel that you really have to offer anyone?
It seems like you want to offer knowledge, but isn`t that the same knowledge that puffed people up and allowed evil to run rampant and unchecked, destroying lives in the first place?
Please consider that if you haven`t the patience to deal with your brothers pain, the kindness to treat your suffering brothers with the courtesy and respect, the compassion to at least hear and acknowledge their suffering, the longsuffering to allow them to vent the frustration and anger over the utter and complete betrayal suffered, the meekness to consider that we may not actually have all of the answeres to life and Godliness (ie know it all)....sigh that rather than valliantly holding forth the word, one might in truth actually just be tinkling a cymble, you know?
Please consider that if you haven`t the patience to deal with your brothers pain, the kindness to treat your suffering brothers with the courtesy and respect, the compassion to at least hear and acknowledge their suffering, the longsuffering to allow them to vent the frustration and anger over the utter and complete betrayal suffered, the meekness to consider that we may not actually have all of the answeres to life and Godliness (ie know it all)....sigh that rather than valliantly holding forth the word, one might in truth actually just be tinkling a cymble, you know?
if I witnessed to someone and they were not receptive IT WAS MY FAULT
if I witnessed to someone and they were receptive but didn't come to twig IT WAS MY FAULT
if I witnessed to someone and they were receptive, and came to twig, but didn't take PFAL IT WAS MY FAULT
if I witnessed to someone and they looked a bit too scruffy for SOME PEOPLE's taste, IT WOULD BE MY FAULT if
the so-called scruffy witnessee ever did anything bad to the blessed ministry
or at least this is the kind of thing that seemed to be heaped upon my head the whole time and so
after a short while of this, it seemed that i should just lay low, and gut out the whole rest of the year
I know, shame on ME
2) Your now current view as to what you expect to see & who you now hold forth GOD''s Word to out of nothing more or less than God's love.
these days... when people i hang with bring up God stuff, i usually listen more than i talk, that way, I learn more
and I stay out of trouble
the thing about "holding forth God's word" (meaning witnessing on behalf of some church group or another) is, people can instinctively (and instantly) tell when whatever someone else says to them comes from some narrow or one-dimensional viewpoint and naturally, they're turned off by it.
it has been said "before you give an opinion on a subject, make sure the person you're giving it to wants it"
if this adage doesn't apply to witnessing I don't know what does.
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ljn698
"the ministry is a nut magnet"
(thus saith the LORD)
seriously though
i feel ya here
I lost track of how many times i Spoke the Word (or such as i knew)
to some poor soul, down on his luck, most of whom were the most
receptive to what TWI had to offer, only to be sharply rebuked by
some high bottom co-ordinator or another for my too much focusing on
what one of those co-ordinators called "lower life".
oh well life goes on
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excathedra
love has never failed me when trying to help someone
could be because i'm in the bottom of the valley
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pond
Love is the commandment of Jesus christ.
Paul talks about SIT as his wish it is not a commandment of our Lord.
Twi exalted sit above the very commandment of Jesus. because it was a "operation" a manifestation of what a PERSON can do.
the more i look at the teaching and core of twi it was always about what people could do to appear very showy and capable of being like God.
very little about what or how Jesus lived by example in his very human life.
the bible talks about not looking for signs but to have trust in God SIT was s sign , oh I know all you "prayer warriors wont like to consider this as possible because it does feed the ego to think well i prayed so the mircle or whatever was all about my prayers and ability to talk god (in a strange and unknown words to me no less) into doing something.
you feel powerful and able and you know JUST GODLY.
well Jesus is the ONLY one who died. the only one who truly loved mankind and Gods children. for me to be thankful for the idea that this whole story could be true and we end up living eternaly never having to die is to love a Jesus did. a little speaking in toungues really doesnt compare.
I believe Jesus was correct when he commanded we love one another as HE loved us.
but that is not as easy as sit in giving a word of prophecy, is it? nor does it feed a person mind with the thought they cant be hurt God is IN THEM and one is all powerful .
it turned folks into down right christian bullies. far removed from what Jesus said we are to do.
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pond
another freak twi saying was:
"how r u?"
answer
"As HE is"
and when i first heard it at the rock it never sat well with me it seemed to dismiss what and who Jesus christ was and is today.
i really think many still believe they are mini Jesus christ running around the world saving people from the devil .
your not even close.
says who?
GOD ALMIGHTY thats who.
so we are left with one ability and that is to continue to love one another and no one has a virgin mom or God having cosmic sex with mom so to me the idea is to stay very aware of the fact it is indeed the grace of God we are even able to love one another.
and you what?
love hurts for the mostpart all of us have been hurt damaged or greived because we have loved another even if it just becuase they have died .
love isnt easy, sit in toungues, thinking you can do ALL things and have super powers is. those who deny God do it all the time.
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Ham
heheheheh..
somehow, the nuts found their way to the top..
look who the vicster put in charge..
and the last limb coordinator I had the "pleasure" to serve under.. the most intellectual and logical conversation we had was about how in da corps, he learned how to be careful as to not mix bread and vegetables in his diet.. so as to avert gastrointestinal disaster..
I'm really not joking here..
I think this was about the time I suspected things weren't exactly in a good kind of shape as I thought..
"Valley of human need"? I suppose he thought he was saving wayfers needless agony from ulcers, colitis.. etc..
with the "greatness" of what he learned at the feet of the "master"..
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freedombound
The focus of this thread was to be twofold:
1) Your similar experiences witnessing.
2) Your now current view as to what you expect to see & who you now hold forth GOD''s Word to out of nothing more or less than God's love.
Not concerned about product or how "HURT" you still are or how pi$$ed off at TWI.
How about some focus people... :blink:
You want to rant-do it elsewhere. Please, help a brother out by giving constructive input. No more Jerry Mcguire comisserating divorcee' type posts please.
I'm not the greatest communicator, but I'm trying to get an honest sample on a specific area without being derailed in my effort.
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potato
well hell, freedombound, it's nice that you chimed in with your expectations after flogging me over posting the "wrong" kind of response.
this is the "about the way" section. maybe posting in "open" would get you what you want. posting here is an open invitation for people to relate their experiences back to TWI.
but here, I'll try to answer your question anyway, in the context of the topic "about the way" and the fact I spent 20 years as a member:
1) Your similar experiences witnessing.
similar to what? TWI's version of witnessing was a bunch of BS multi-level marketing. it was so painful that I refuse to witness and I won't go to church because I can't stand whitewashed christian "love". since leaving twi and their hypocrisy, I do, however, make sure I stand up for what I believe is right.
2) Your now current view as to what you expect to see & who you now hold forth GOD''s Word to out of nothing more or less than God's love.
I don't hold forth god's word. I do give people as much respect as I can, and love if they need it. I don't expect anything from it, I just hope that if I hold out my hand with empathy when someone needs it, it'll give them the strength to carry on.
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socks
Hmm, okay. Stated and heard. I got a different view of what you were saying at the start. It was more of a statement than a query for experiences and what was learned by them. In general I'd agree, but as Mike stated that won't apply to everyone, at all times, everywhere. It simply won't, so some clarification is good.
F'instance, you mention "Way Disciples" - that's years after I left the Way and my knee-jerk reaction to that era isn't one of high regard. Yet, you pose a question now that indicates there was some substance going on, some legitimate interest in helping others with your Christian message, and perhaps not only from you but others. A conflict like you describe could only occur if there was.
I had the opportunity to meet many, many people while I was in the Way. I would define the "valley" of human need as simply the human condition. I have a saying - life sucks when it isn't cool. And it sucks most of the time for a large percentage of the people on this planet. Life, on the other hand, doesn't suck when it is cool. Unfortunately if I wait around long enough, the meter will jump up and down. Keeping it in one generally "cool" area can be quite a challenge.
So my point is - of course anyone who intends to work intimately with people and be involved closely with their lives is going to see some serious uncoolness, problems of every ilk and stripe and a lot of generally bad hoodoo that will rob you of a lot of sleep if you start to think about it late at night. The world can be a very weird place, I've found, IMO.
And a lot of Wayfers, while well intentioned, have gotten themselves in over their head time and again because they're not built or prepared to embrace someone in true darkness and not fumble their flashlight.
It's better to not get involved if you don't want to get dirty. And that's the rub - the truth is that not everyone is really cut out for it that wants to. And it can be very difficult to find someone who doesn't mind getting your dirt on them long enough to lend a hand when push really comes to shove. I don't blame those who don't or can't, but I do have a really bad vibe for those who b.s. it or use the opportunity for personal gain. I have a message for them - and they're not going to like it.
Anyhoo, I do have some lessons learned along these lines, I promise to revisit later. :)
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excathedra
well, i just really loved that post. i just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QutFsrlBdI
:) mwah
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kimberly
About witnessing.....my baby taught me what that is. When he was 4 years old we were joking around and I said, "Yeh, how do you know I love you?" He said, "Because of the way you treat me." Floored me. Out of the mouths of babes. I was taught another time when a woman, who frequented my restaurant asked me to pray for her mother. I had never spoken the Word of God or mentioned the name Jesus Christ to her. She said, "I know you are a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ by your actions."
I was studying some stuff at the time (these 2 incidents took place within one week of each other) and Father taught me so much. You don't have to quote scripture to be a witness. Our actions can speak louder than words. Then again, you can hear words out of someone's mouth and figger where they are coming from.
Lawdy, hassa muuhhsee.....go beyond the valley of human need. Get down and be down in the trenches of life with and for people. Even if people never get saved, reject us....we are to love them... no matter what. Jesus Christ lived down and dirty in the trenches of life. He lived it all. For God so loved the world.....He knew that His chosen would reject His Son, their Promised Messiah. Duz, ya think the Lord Christ knew that Israel rejected HIM. Yet, with His last breath (Psalm 22) He was down in the trenches, in the valley of human need, for the chosen to recognize their Promise. He never gave up on people. Some dude named Peter comes to mind.
I know of a truth, that twi gave lip service concerning this. Yet, I must say in our own little world of home fellowship we were involved with folks. The nuttier they were the more we loved them. They were right at home with us and we with them. I must say it still holds true for me today.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Your focus is who I now hold "GOD's Word" to.....but yet, your not concerned with "product"
I'm afraid you make some assumptions that I do not make...Twi's verson of "God's word" WAS their product.
...and a twisted one at that.
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rascal
Nicely said Kimberly :)
Hmm Freedombound, you don`t want to hear about problems with the *product* and you don`t want to hear about peoples pain, and you don`t want to hear about anger over abuse and cruel treatment.
Excuse me for asking, but just what is it that you feel that you really have to offer anyone?
It seems like you want to offer knowledge, but isn`t that the same knowledge that puffed people up and allowed evil to run rampant and unchecked, destroying lives in the first place?
Please consider that if you haven`t the patience to deal with your brothers pain, the kindness to treat your suffering brothers with the courtesy and respect, the compassion to at least hear and acknowledge their suffering, the longsuffering to allow them to vent the frustration and anger over the utter and complete betrayal suffered, the meekness to consider that we may not actually have all of the answeres to life and Godliness (ie know it all)....sigh that rather than valliantly holding forth the word, one might in truth actually just be tinkling a cymble, you know?
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potato
oh SNAP!
thank you, rascal.
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waysider
Perhaps VP & Co. were afraid someone would put their product (ie: "The Law of Believing", etc.) to a real test and discover it was flawed.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/radio/...ohn-juedes.html
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/editor...god-needed.html
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excathedra
that was really sweet about a little child understanding love
(and potato, i love you)
and pond tell me how you feel someday lol you're great
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ljn698
1) Your similar experiences witnessing.
ok i'm going back to 1984-85 a WOW year for me.
if I witnessed to someone and they were not receptive IT WAS MY FAULT
if I witnessed to someone and they were receptive but didn't come to twig IT WAS MY FAULT
if I witnessed to someone and they were receptive, and came to twig, but didn't take PFAL IT WAS MY FAULT
if I witnessed to someone and they looked a bit too scruffy for SOME PEOPLE's taste, IT WOULD BE MY FAULT if
the so-called scruffy witnessee ever did anything bad to the blessed ministry
or at least this is the kind of thing that seemed to be heaped upon my head the whole time and so
after a short while of this, it seemed that i should just lay low, and gut out the whole rest of the year
I know, shame on ME
2) Your now current view as to what you expect to see & who you now hold forth GOD''s Word to out of nothing more or less than God's love.
these days... when people i hang with bring up God stuff, i usually listen more than i talk, that way, I learn more
and I stay out of trouble
the thing about "holding forth God's word" (meaning witnessing on behalf of some church group or another) is, people can instinctively (and instantly) tell when whatever someone else says to them comes from some narrow or one-dimensional viewpoint and naturally, they're turned off by it.
it has been said "before you give an opinion on a subject, make sure the person you're giving it to wants it"
if this adage doesn't apply to witnessing I don't know what does.
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waterbuffalo
Peace.
Love :-)
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excathedra
i honestly would rather live my life trying to love than having answers
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