Interesting succinct description of the situation and dilemma. Thanks.
Was he performing scarification or actual cutting for the sake of cutting? IMO neither are healthy but the former can be tied into different forms of belief rituals and the like and have some internal as well as external meaning. The latter could be a pathology resulting from depression or other form of mental disorder. No expert here, but cutting's also done in advanced forms of drug use and addiction too and is a bad sign - did he use drugs?
Truth to tell you may have been wisest to pass on that one, but you've got a better fix on what was going on. I don't doubt for a second that the average Wayfer would be ill-equipped to deal with someone like that in most cases. But seeing the need and turning away from it isn't the answer either. Had "we" had a broader view of helping people and how to use the tools available, I'm sure more could have been done.
Interesting succinct description of the situation and dilemma. Thanks.
Was he performing scarification or actual cutting for the sake of cutting? IMO neither are healthy but the former can be tied into different forms of belief rituals and the like and have some internal as well as external meaning. The latter could be a pathology resulting from depression or other form of mental disorder. No expert here, but cutting's also done in advanced forms of drug use and addiction too and is a bad sign - did he use drugs?
Truth to tell you may have been wisest to pass on that one, but you've got a better fix on what was going on. I don't doubt for a second that the average Wayfer would be ill-equipped to deal with someone like that in most cases. But seeing the need and turning away from it isn't the answer either. Had "we" had a broader view of helping people and how to use the tools available, I'm sure more could have been done.
To answer your question as to his pathology-it doesn't matter.
Please, don't miss the point here.The point is you will get dirty down in the VALLEY. I don't profess to have had the professional ability to "shrink" him. But it is supposed to be GodinChristinMe! Bringing the energized Spirit to bear via the manifestations or just plain common sense such as aiding this kid into getting a professional's help whether inside the ministry or not.
Like you said:" But seeing the need and turning away from it isn't the answer either. Had "we" had a broader view of helping people and how to use the tools available, I'm sure more could have been done."
Again the point is what do we expect to find down in the Valley???
I think that's a valid point - all things considered, what could there be but need and who better to handle than those most equipped with "spiritual" awareness and knowledge?
I get what you're going for here. In practical application though it would matter, but that goes to actually helping in that situation which is now long gone by the sounds of it.
Getting that person to some legit help wouldn't have been rocket science either.
Mary Poppins (former poster here) and her husband Powerfilled have a fellowship. It's full of teenagers. The kids have brought each other and absolutely love to hang out with MP and Powerfilled.
One Saturday afternoon (for the kids love to hang out at MP and P's place) all the kids confessed that prior to coming to fellowship, they had all "cut" themselves (unbeknownst to each other). They don't feel the need to any more. However, since they have all 'fessed up to it, they help each other if any of them feels weak and wants to do it again.
But what's really helped the kids is simply sharing the scriptures with them and showing them purpose for their lives.
What did Jesus do when he encountered a man who hid in tombs and often cut himself? (Mark 5) He cast out the devil spirit Legion.
In order to understand this kind of thinking, you first have to realize that we, the individuals, did not always see things in the same perspective that typified the larger goals of the organization. In other words, we thought we were out there trying to help people. In reality, though, our purpose, from a corporate viewpoint, was to sell "The Class" and recruit more salesmen into our workforce. Based on that, I think I can see why this guy may have been deemed a "bad credit" risk.
I saw the same type of thing happen, also. I would witness to some person who had genuine problems and get excited about how I thought "The Class" could help them. Then, I would be told to distance myself because they would probably not make good"leadership material"(ie: salesmen). Of course, there was always some sort of rationalization applied to it that seemed to make sense to me at the time.
If we had looked at this thing for what it really was, a money driven sales effort, it probably wouldn't have bothered us nearly as much. Unfortunately, we saw ourselves as philanthropists, not salesmen.
If we had been part of the Christian Community at large---maybe when we met people like that we could have reached out with better hands. We isolated ourselves. So arrogant. To think we had such a handle on the "truth" that we kept ourselves from other Christians. Oddly enough, there are Christians out there willing and able to reach out with love and hope to ALL people.Your leadership would not have known this though. . . . too busy leading God's chosen group.We may have been ill equipped to handle something like that, but we were also too busy being "Right" to even notice that there are Christians who can. I shudder to think what would have happened if you did try to get him some help outside the household. My son helps raise money for this group. http://www.twloha.com/
this is a good thread and a good question , see that is/was the problem with twi.. we became super human mini christs MORE than conquers , as HE is and on and on it went.
and we learned to turn off what the "valley" is what being fully human is.
body soul and spirit gave us this lofty goal of never wanting or needing to be the lesser of just being a "soul" or God forbid natural man.
Jesus commands we love one another but the twi version ONLY if your not "out of fellowship" wth?
if your not spiritual "right then well just die and better yet they told folks God will see to it !
We must put boundaries on our influences in life and socks has a good point in the fact you may have never been able to "help" this person.
But did you have to HURT HIM in the name of God?
I think some in twi really learned to hate in the name of Jesus and it was twisted .
Do not be ashamed dear fredombound that is another trick of the devil to shame a person so they really never love again without fear of hurting another, what kind of life is that? it doesnt help anyone.
Many involved in twi focused on twi thinking and claiming they were focused on God.
no one can focus on god if God wants a person healed they will be healed .. and our failings doesnt make it not happen , nor does our obedience make it happen.
and that is the ego of so many of these groups that the diciple of Christ is the one and only capable of the miricles of the helps of the work of Christ. Without YOU then all would be lost you failed was not an option so just go away from them oh no oh no oh no people with needs.
so you think your ok it is all of them that are messed up.
a lonely world a lonley small cult world.
full of lies and hate for one another if not out right fear of what they could do to you .
we called one another believers but I saw very little believing going on just fear and isolation and dismissing of who Christ is for all of mankind.
TWI was never pastoral. Its idea of girding up and undershepherding was to equip people to sell the class. The whole purpose of twig, WoW and corp was to sell the product - PFAL and all the other classes. By believing your way out of problems and issues (or ignoring any problems or issues), people could focus on the one true purpose - PFAL.
Being a cutter is not harmonious with the goals of TWI, unless it could be used to promote TWI (as in it being responsible for someone's deliverance from the problem through some sort of miracle).
Oddly, I actually HAVE met a large number of people (lately) who are into this practice of cutting.
First of all, though, it sounds like socks was onto a major dichotomy clarification. Some cultures practice cutting like tatoos, for religious decorative purposes. It sounds like this guy you mentioned was not into that practice but the other one, the one that resembles a self punishment of sorts.
I hang out with artists and writers often, and many are young, like in their early 20's. It seems this self mutilation thing is a rather recent thing in our culture. All of the "cutters" I've met (about 6) are under 25. My first questions, freedombound, would be WHEN did this occur and HOW OLD was the person?
One reason I ask about the timing is because I do know what you mean by "Again the point is what do we expect to find down in the Valley???"
It seems to me that the types of leadership that would shrink away from wanting to help the down and dirty came later in our TWI experience, while the earlier leadership was far more inclined to get in and help, unflinched by the outrageousness of the oppressed, HAVING BEEN THEIR THEMSELVES OFTEN.
It was later in the game that leadership was on the hunt for "quality people" and didn't want to get their hands dirty.
One last thought: SOMETIMES the afflicted citizens of "the valley of human need" DO NOT WANT deliverance. They like being different, and cutting areas of the body that are exposed certainly does this job well. Did you see any said wounds?
SOMETIMES getting rid of distractions, those who did not genuinely want deliverance, was the right thing for the health of a fellowship.
I'd be most interested in the year this all took place. It doesn't sound like the 70's to me.
Cutting is like me pounding my head on a wall when I had a migraine. The pain of the pounding eased the pain in my head. People cut to ease the pain of their being. It is called self-injury and it is not done to self-punish. Cutting is associated with Borderline Personality Disorder and Depressive Disorder. It is widespread among younger people and while it may be a banner of pride among some within the artistic community, there is largely shame associated with cutting. Wearing very long sleeves or sleeves with thumb holes so there's no chance of showing arm is a good indication the person is a cutter.
Getting people to take the class was, when I first became involved in the '70s, the way to bring people to deliverance. Strict adherence to the principles of PFAL would deliver everyone from his/her issues. I believe when that didn't actually happen and it was discovered that pastoring had a place in a church, that TWI started steering away from those who obviously needed deliverance. In other words, if PFAL was not going to deliver a person from their need, then it was time to steer clear of those people with obvious needs.
Cutting is like me pounding my head on a wall when I had a migraine. The pain of the pounding eased the pain in my head. People cut to ease the pain of their being. It is called self-injury and it is not done to self-punish.
Tzaia,
I have no understanding of the why's and wherefore's of this cutting situation, only that I know (slightly) a surprisingly large number of people who were into it. Some did seem still disturbed a bit, and were into drugs too. It is very odd stuff.
Getting people to take the class was, when I first became involved in the '70s, the way to bring people to deliverance. Strict adherence to the principles of PFAL would deliver everyone from his/her issues. I believe when that didn't actually happen and it was discovered that pastoring had a place in a church, that TWI started steering away from those who obviously needed deliverance. In other words, if PFAL was not going to deliver a person from their need, then it was time to steer clear of those people with obvious needs.
I was not taught quite so simplistically.
For those of us who were not yet into trying to get revelation, a crude rule of thumb like that might suffice, and even be a good interim measure. Trouble was, things like that became TVT rule as time went by. (TVT = Twi Verbal Tradition).
I saw plenty of efforts to help those who were beyond the "good future pfal salesmen" stereotype that is often advertised here, now. I myself took part in many such attempts to help those who were beyond that stereotype, and I saw plenty of other leaders doing the same. It was from them that I learned this kind of genuine love. I once actually brought an obvious Down's Syndrome teenager to my twig and led him into SIT, and I vaguely recall another mentally deficient person I ministered to, but the details escape me just now.
I think the situation you describe is often exaggerated.
the pain from cutting releases endorphins. it's like getting a shot of a calming drug. people use pain to control panic attacks and anxiety. it's not a badge of honor or a celebration of deviance, like self-mutilation.
twi abandoned a lot of people with needs because they couldn't be groomed to a degree of normalcy that would be a good witness for twi. twi wanted people who looked good, period. it mattered far less that they wanted to be delivered from something, or that they loved god but had an IQ of 80. those people got weeded out by demanding so much of them that they failed and "copped out" because of their "lack of believing to get healed".
It's what motivated them to actively pursue people who were already successful in their fields, whether it be athletics, music, medicine, finance, etc.
It's really a variation of an old "tried and true" sales technique using implied endorsements.
"You know, Mrs. Smith, your son's pediatrician bought TWO of these just last week."
(TWI version)
"There must be something to this if Joe Famous took the class"."
Thank you all for your posts & varying opinions...
I think I may have posted this in the wrong forum. My intent was not so much to rant & rave on how F-Upped TWI is/was.
Remember-the people in the valley. Where many of us came from. The year in which this happened-doesn't matter. The specifics asked about-not the emphasis.
What matters is that we are willing to get down in there and do what this Word of God tells us to do. As for pimping the class (product). Let me give you some background: I was in the first Way Disciple Group who had no product to pimp-as we were between PFAL & The Way of Abundance & Power. Our goal was to get people born-again. So in a way, the pressure was off. This then was coupled with taking a genuine interest in people-why keep fishing if you have on on the hook? So we spent some of that precious door2door time just hanging with folks. Kind of like you would do when you meet someone in the "real" world. Mind you- this was some years later after group I, but the lifestyle learned continued.
As for my leadership at the time-now that I have calmed from my rant, I think he was young, immature & in a self preservation sense, looking to protect my family out of love for me. All this corporate .... about the product-who can keep up with all that? Like this election!
LET'S KEEP IT FOCUSED ON YOUR EXPERIENCES IN THE VALLEY & THE LESSONS LEARNED DOWN THERE!!! :)
"TO HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED....SET THE CAPTIVES FREE..."
You know-it could very well be our lifetime in which the Lord returns!!! I believe that-do you
being in twi was my valley of the shadow of death. walking away from twi was walking out of the valley into the light.
it twi, I learned to judge by appearances. since twi, I've decided to judge by the heart. no one is perfect.
in twi, I learned to appease arrogance. since twi, I've learned to speak against and abhor it.
in twi, I learned that if my believing is perfect, I can be perfectly healed. since twi, I've realized I'm flawed and if there is a god who loves, I'm loved as I am.
I cannot heal anyone, or set them free. I can be kind, and I can encourage the fearful. that's all.
being in twi was my valley of the shadow of death. walking away from twi was walking out of the valley into the light.
it twi, I learned to judge by appearances. since twi, I've decided to judge by the heart. no one is perfect.
in twi, I learned to appease arrogance. since twi, I've learned to speak against and abhor it.
in twi, I learned that if my believing is perfect, I can be perfectly healed. since twi, I've realized I'm flawed and if there is a god who loves, I'm loved as I am.
I cannot heal anyone, or set them free. I can be kind, and I can encourage the fearful. that's all.
I didn't read this whole thread, but I thought what is the harm in showing someone a little compassion and let them know change is an option. Too many times, expecially in my later years in TWI, people had to fit the mold in order to be invited to fellowship. If they were too weird, we wouldn't witness to them. As a matter of fact, if someone yard looked crappy, we wouldn't knock on their door. TWI's god is a respector of persons.
You do have to be careful who you invite in to your life; but if you take a moment to show some kindness and compassion, surely it can give that person some sort of hope or happiness.
I didn't realize my account of "the valley" and what I learned down there would be considered off topic. I guess I don't really understand what your topic is. you asked what we learned in the valley of human need. I learned my most valuable lessons by leaving twi and learning new ways of looking at people. if that's not an appropriate answer, I'm sorry and perhaps you can make your question more specific.
I saw plenty of efforts to help those who were beyond the "good future pfal salesmen" stereotype that is often advertised here, now. I myself took part in many such attempts to help those who were beyond that stereotype, and I saw plenty of other leaders doing the same. It was from them that I learned this kind of genuine love. I once actually brought an obvious Down's Syndrome teenager to my twig and led him into SIT, and I vaguely recall another mentally deficient person I ministered to, but the details escape me just now.
I think the situation you describe is often exaggerated.
The effort was in getting people to take the class. There were efforts past the class and I think you are correct when you use the word "attempt," because nothing beyond attempt was done. TWI had/has no pastoral aspect. That was one of the things I became aware of early on and TWI was proud of that non-pastoral state of being. Pastoring infers a not-so-abundant life.
The thing about TWI is that initially it is willing to meet people where they are, but becomes impatient when people don't go to the preferred TWI state of being.
In one of the first twigs I was in (1972), we had someone show up for twig who had lost an arm.
You know what the talk was in twig?
"Hey, if we can get this person made whole again, people will be lined up around the block, begging to take The Class."
TROPHY MENTALITY!!
All focused on facilitating a sale.
We should have been reassuring this person they were loved for who they were, arm or no arm.
Instead, we yammered on about the asinine "law" of believing and told them The Class would help them "believe" for wholeness. (It's on The Green Card.) They left in frustration, full of self condemnation for not being spiritual enough to "believe" for healing. This stuff was just plain wrong. We didn't see the reality of human need when it was staring us in the face.
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socks
Interesting succinct description of the situation and dilemma. Thanks.
Was he performing scarification or actual cutting for the sake of cutting? IMO neither are healthy but the former can be tied into different forms of belief rituals and the like and have some internal as well as external meaning. The latter could be a pathology resulting from depression or other form of mental disorder. No expert here, but cutting's also done in advanced forms of drug use and addiction too and is a bad sign - did he use drugs?
Truth to tell you may have been wisest to pass on that one, but you've got a better fix on what was going on. I don't doubt for a second that the average Wayfer would be ill-equipped to deal with someone like that in most cases. But seeing the need and turning away from it isn't the answer either. Had "we" had a broader view of helping people and how to use the tools available, I'm sure more could have been done.
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freedombound
To answer your question as to his pathology-it doesn't matter.
Please, don't miss the point here.The point is you will get dirty down in the VALLEY. I don't profess to have had the professional ability to "shrink" him. But it is supposed to be GodinChristinMe! Bringing the energized Spirit to bear via the manifestations or just plain common sense such as aiding this kid into getting a professional's help whether inside the ministry or not.
Like you said:" But seeing the need and turning away from it isn't the answer either. Had "we" had a broader view of helping people and how to use the tools available, I'm sure more could have been done."
Again the point is what do we expect to find down in the Valley???
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socks
I think that's a valid point - all things considered, what could there be but need and who better to handle than those most equipped with "spiritual" awareness and knowledge?
I get what you're going for here. In practical application though it would matter, but that goes to actually helping in that situation which is now long gone by the sounds of it.
Getting that person to some legit help wouldn't have been rocket science either.
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Twinky
Mary Poppins (former poster here) and her husband Powerfilled have a fellowship. It's full of teenagers. The kids have brought each other and absolutely love to hang out with MP and Powerfilled.
One Saturday afternoon (for the kids love to hang out at MP and P's place) all the kids confessed that prior to coming to fellowship, they had all "cut" themselves (unbeknownst to each other). They don't feel the need to any more. However, since they have all 'fessed up to it, they help each other if any of them feels weak and wants to do it again.
But what's really helped the kids is simply sharing the scriptures with them and showing them purpose for their lives.
What did Jesus do when he encountered a man who hid in tombs and often cut himself? (Mark 5) He cast out the devil spirit Legion.
What a jerk your leadership was.
(Edited to add scripture reference)
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waysider
In order to understand this kind of thinking, you first have to realize that we, the individuals, did not always see things in the same perspective that typified the larger goals of the organization. In other words, we thought we were out there trying to help people. In reality, though, our purpose, from a corporate viewpoint, was to sell "The Class" and recruit more salesmen into our workforce. Based on that, I think I can see why this guy may have been deemed a "bad credit" risk.
I saw the same type of thing happen, also. I would witness to some person who had genuine problems and get excited about how I thought "The Class" could help them. Then, I would be told to distance myself because they would probably not make good"leadership material"(ie: salesmen). Of course, there was always some sort of rationalization applied to it that seemed to make sense to me at the time.
If we had looked at this thing for what it really was, a money driven sales effort, it probably wouldn't have bothered us nearly as much. Unfortunately, we saw ourselves as philanthropists, not salesmen.
As always, that's just my opinion.
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geisha779
If we had been part of the Christian Community at large---maybe when we met people like that we could have reached out with better hands. We isolated ourselves. So arrogant. To think we had such a handle on the "truth" that we kept ourselves from other Christians. Oddly enough, there are Christians out there willing and able to reach out with love and hope to ALL people.Your leadership would not have known this though. . . . too busy leading God's chosen group.We may have been ill equipped to handle something like that, but we were also too busy being "Right" to even notice that there are Christians who can. I shudder to think what would have happened if you did try to get him some help outside the household. My son helps raise money for this group. http://www.twloha.com/
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pond
The valley of Human need and what do we expect?
this is a good thread and a good question , see that is/was the problem with twi.. we became super human mini christs MORE than conquers , as HE is and on and on it went.
and we learned to turn off what the "valley" is what being fully human is.
body soul and spirit gave us this lofty goal of never wanting or needing to be the lesser of just being a "soul" or God forbid natural man.
Jesus commands we love one another but the twi version ONLY if your not "out of fellowship" wth?
if your not spiritual "right then well just die and better yet they told folks God will see to it !
We must put boundaries on our influences in life and socks has a good point in the fact you may have never been able to "help" this person.
But did you have to HURT HIM in the name of God?
I think some in twi really learned to hate in the name of Jesus and it was twisted .
Do not be ashamed dear fredombound that is another trick of the devil to shame a person so they really never love again without fear of hurting another, what kind of life is that? it doesnt help anyone.
Many involved in twi focused on twi thinking and claiming they were focused on God.
no one can focus on god if God wants a person healed they will be healed .. and our failings doesnt make it not happen , nor does our obedience make it happen.
and that is the ego of so many of these groups that the diciple of Christ is the one and only capable of the miricles of the helps of the work of Christ. Without YOU then all would be lost you failed was not an option so just go away from them oh no oh no oh no people with needs.
so you think your ok it is all of them that are messed up.
a lonely world a lonley small cult world.
full of lies and hate for one another if not out right fear of what they could do to you .
we called one another believers but I saw very little believing going on just fear and isolation and dismissing of who Christ is for all of mankind.
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Twinky
Good post, Waysider.
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copenhagen
Hope this does not derail.
I was at a adv class grad meeting with the region cord teaching.
The topic was witnessing and we were warned "the ministry is a nut magnet"
and these nuts are not what we are looking for. Jobs and not peolple with
problams is the push.(Bring in the money not problams)
This was a few months ago and I was thinking wtf if someone has a need and you have
the word give it.
copenhagen
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Tzaia
TWI was never pastoral. Its idea of girding up and undershepherding was to equip people to sell the class. The whole purpose of twig, WoW and corp was to sell the product - PFAL and all the other classes. By believing your way out of problems and issues (or ignoring any problems or issues), people could focus on the one true purpose - PFAL.
Being a cutter is not harmonious with the goals of TWI, unless it could be used to promote TWI (as in it being responsible for someone's deliverance from the problem through some sort of miracle).
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GrouchoMarxJr
...and more often than not, "deliverence" was defined by whether someone bought the product or not.
For VP Wierwille, "the valley of human need" was nothing more than a marketing term used to descibe his potential sales prospects.
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Mike
freedombound,
Oddly, I actually HAVE met a large number of people (lately) who are into this practice of cutting.
First of all, though, it sounds like socks was onto a major dichotomy clarification. Some cultures practice cutting like tatoos, for religious decorative purposes. It sounds like this guy you mentioned was not into that practice but the other one, the one that resembles a self punishment of sorts.
I hang out with artists and writers often, and many are young, like in their early 20's. It seems this self mutilation thing is a rather recent thing in our culture. All of the "cutters" I've met (about 6) are under 25. My first questions, freedombound, would be WHEN did this occur and HOW OLD was the person?
One reason I ask about the timing is because I do know what you mean by "Again the point is what do we expect to find down in the Valley???"
It seems to me that the types of leadership that would shrink away from wanting to help the down and dirty came later in our TWI experience, while the earlier leadership was far more inclined to get in and help, unflinched by the outrageousness of the oppressed, HAVING BEEN THEIR THEMSELVES OFTEN.
It was later in the game that leadership was on the hunt for "quality people" and didn't want to get their hands dirty.
One last thought: SOMETIMES the afflicted citizens of "the valley of human need" DO NOT WANT deliverance. They like being different, and cutting areas of the body that are exposed certainly does this job well. Did you see any said wounds?
SOMETIMES getting rid of distractions, those who did not genuinely want deliverance, was the right thing for the health of a fellowship.
I'd be most interested in the year this all took place. It doesn't sound like the 70's to me.
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waysider
In order to clarify my previous post, I should have mentioned that my encounters with this type of thinking extend as far back as 1972.
Here is a snippet from Witnessing and Undershepharding, page 2. (1974)
"The basic reason we witness is to help people into the classes on Power For Abundant Living----"
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Tzaia
Mike,
Cutting is like me pounding my head on a wall when I had a migraine. The pain of the pounding eased the pain in my head. People cut to ease the pain of their being. It is called self-injury and it is not done to self-punish. Cutting is associated with Borderline Personality Disorder and Depressive Disorder. It is widespread among younger people and while it may be a banner of pride among some within the artistic community, there is largely shame associated with cutting. Wearing very long sleeves or sleeves with thumb holes so there's no chance of showing arm is a good indication the person is a cutter.
Getting people to take the class was, when I first became involved in the '70s, the way to bring people to deliverance. Strict adherence to the principles of PFAL would deliver everyone from his/her issues. I believe when that didn't actually happen and it was discovered that pastoring had a place in a church, that TWI started steering away from those who obviously needed deliverance. In other words, if PFAL was not going to deliver a person from their need, then it was time to steer clear of those people with obvious needs.
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Mike
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potato
great post, Tzaia.
the pain from cutting releases endorphins. it's like getting a shot of a calming drug. people use pain to control panic attacks and anxiety. it's not a badge of honor or a celebration of deviance, like self-mutilation.
twi abandoned a lot of people with needs because they couldn't be groomed to a degree of normalcy that would be a good witness for twi. twi wanted people who looked good, period. it mattered far less that they wanted to be delivered from something, or that they loved god but had an IQ of 80. those people got weeded out by demanding so much of them that they failed and "copped out" because of their "lack of believing to get healed".
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waysider
TROPHY MENTALITY
It's what motivated them to actively pursue people who were already successful in their fields, whether it be athletics, music, medicine, finance, etc.
It's really a variation of an old "tried and true" sales technique using implied endorsements.
"You know, Mrs. Smith, your son's pediatrician bought TWO of these just last week."
(TWI version)
"There must be something to this if Joe Famous took the class"."
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freedombound
Thank you all for your posts & varying opinions...
I think I may have posted this in the wrong forum. My intent was not so much to rant & rave on how F-Upped TWI is/was.
Remember-the people in the valley. Where many of us came from. The year in which this happened-doesn't matter. The specifics asked about-not the emphasis.
What matters is that we are willing to get down in there and do what this Word of God tells us to do. As for pimping the class (product). Let me give you some background: I was in the first Way Disciple Group who had no product to pimp-as we were between PFAL & The Way of Abundance & Power. Our goal was to get people born-again. So in a way, the pressure was off. This then was coupled with taking a genuine interest in people-why keep fishing if you have on on the hook? So we spent some of that precious door2door time just hanging with folks. Kind of like you would do when you meet someone in the "real" world. Mind you- this was some years later after group I, but the lifestyle learned continued.
As for my leadership at the time-now that I have calmed from my rant, I think he was young, immature & in a self preservation sense, looking to protect my family out of love for me. All this corporate .... about the product-who can keep up with all that? Like this election!
LET'S KEEP IT FOCUSED ON YOUR EXPERIENCES IN THE VALLEY & THE LESSONS LEARNED DOWN THERE!!! :)
"TO HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED....SET THE CAPTIVES FREE..."
You know-it could very well be our lifetime in which the Lord returns!!! I believe that-do you
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potato
being in twi was my valley of the shadow of death. walking away from twi was walking out of the valley into the light.
it twi, I learned to judge by appearances. since twi, I've decided to judge by the heart. no one is perfect.
in twi, I learned to appease arrogance. since twi, I've learned to speak against and abhor it.
in twi, I learned that if my believing is perfect, I can be perfectly healed. since twi, I've realized I'm flawed and if there is a god who loves, I'm loved as I am.
I cannot heal anyone, or set them free. I can be kind, and I can encourage the fearful. that's all.
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freedombound
PLEASE-CAN WE KEEP THE WHEELS ON THE TRACK
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Nottawayfer
I didn't read this whole thread, but I thought what is the harm in showing someone a little compassion and let them know change is an option. Too many times, expecially in my later years in TWI, people had to fit the mold in order to be invited to fellowship. If they were too weird, we wouldn't witness to them. As a matter of fact, if someone yard looked crappy, we wouldn't knock on their door. TWI's god is a respector of persons.
You do have to be careful who you invite in to your life; but if you take a moment to show some kindness and compassion, surely it can give that person some sort of hope or happiness.
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potato
I didn't realize my account of "the valley" and what I learned down there would be considered off topic. I guess I don't really understand what your topic is. you asked what we learned in the valley of human need. I learned my most valuable lessons by leaving twi and learning new ways of looking at people. if that's not an appropriate answer, I'm sorry and perhaps you can make your question more specific.
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Tzaia
The effort was in getting people to take the class. There were efforts past the class and I think you are correct when you use the word "attempt," because nothing beyond attempt was done. TWI had/has no pastoral aspect. That was one of the things I became aware of early on and TWI was proud of that non-pastoral state of being. Pastoring infers a not-so-abundant life.
The thing about TWI is that initially it is willing to meet people where they are, but becomes impatient when people don't go to the preferred TWI state of being.
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waysider
In one of the first twigs I was in (1972), we had someone show up for twig who had lost an arm.
You know what the talk was in twig?
"Hey, if we can get this person made whole again, people will be lined up around the block, begging to take The Class."
TROPHY MENTALITY!!
All focused on facilitating a sale.
We should have been reassuring this person they were loved for who they were, arm or no arm.
Instead, we yammered on about the asinine "law" of believing and told them The Class would help them "believe" for wholeness. (It's on The Green Card.) They left in frustration, full of self condemnation for not being spiritual enough to "believe" for healing. This stuff was just plain wrong. We didn't see the reality of human need when it was staring us in the face.
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