I like your analogy. But it kind of proves the point of this thread doesn't it?
Sure it's uncomfortable to pull the splinter out, but what's the alternative? How long will people limp because they have a splinter in their foot that they don't want to take out? If they leave the splinter in, when they know that deliverance is available, then it's like choosing to be in pain.
God's got a mighty big pair of tweezers ya know? No splinter gets past him. If people want it pulled out, then have Him pull it out. If you don't, you better get used to the splinter because it will be there a long time. It isn't going to take care of itself.
CatCup,
I understand the source of your frustration. I feel regret to hear of yet another person who was used and abused by Way leadership.
On the other hand, I think you take things to a little bit of an extreme.
Do you mean to tell me that all of the good things people learned from being involved with the Way at some point is now moot becuase your sister was hurt? Of course not.
Hey, half the crap that was going on in the Way, I never even knew about. So I couldn't be there to support your sister when she needed support. What do you want me to do about it Catcup?
I would never make such a statement that it was "worth" your sister being hurt or anyone being hurt just so I could get what I wanted out of it.
That is very unfair and I have never hinted to such an attitude.
I hope you get over the hurt one day and I hope your sister does too. I hope one day she can go to God and say, "God, that was then, but this now and from this day on, I move ahead with no bitterness, no anger, and no discouragement. I know who I am because you gave me Christ in me!!"
Maybe, but maybe, it's just a thought I had, but ......would you be willing to help carry the burden of pain, suffering, and grief that some here have?
Jesus did it for you and me, after all. And remember the old poem, "He has no hands but our hands...."
Are you willing to do that Erick? for the sake of the greater good? Sorry for being way too confrontational, if I am. But maybe we who claim to be Christians should put our money where our mouth is, so to speak.
Maybe you're trying to do that. But condemning people for trying to work through their pain, just doesn't cut it for me.
The "Way Leadership" that used and abused my family is a loooooooooong line headed up by Victor Paul Wierwille, Loy Craig Martindale, Mxxx Wxxxxxx, Lxxxx Pxxxxxxxx, Jxxx Pxxxxx and many others, NONE of whom have EVER apologized to me or any other member of my family for the damage they have done. Not that I believe they ever will. I'm not holding my breath. However, if I get a personal visit from a few folks, I'd be willing to listen. We'll see if they get past my front door depending on the first things out of their mouths.
And no, I don't think you do understand where my frustration comes from. Most of the frustration comes from people who seem to minimize the damage done in favor of what they think they got out of being involved with The Way. However, when you start digging, and I mean REALLY digging the truth, you will see how many lies you have been fed by TWI regarding the truth of God.
You're not there yet. You still think the opium you've been fed is candy, and you patronize me.
And THAT, dear is what is frustrating.
Now I really do have to get back to my equations. Unlike people, numbers are logical. Unlike people, numbers never lie. Therein is truth and peace for me.
I for one, when leaving the Way told God how I didn't want to carry around evil in my heart. God was able to help me heal and get over my disappoinments. And it didn't take 6 years after being out to get over it either. If God will help me heal, then why hasn't He seemed to help others here at GS who claim to be so devastated?
Judging by the anger you seem to have here, you aren't healed. You are taking stuff that other people say about another person like they are talking bad about you. Sometimes life has unpleasant things, and this site is used to talk about them.
quote:Originally posted by Erick Konkel:
Well of course we know He would if people would come to Him. But they aren't coming to Him. They don't come to Him because they don't want to be healed.
No, people don't go to "him" because there is absolutely no proof of his existance. It's pretty tough to play hide and seek with the boogyman.
quote:Originally posted by Erick Konkel:
People talk about Buck, myself, and others as justifying error. That's very hypocritical of them because they do the very thing they accuse us of. They justify their bitterness, rage, and unforgiving hearts by putting emphasis on what they have experienced and not what the Word says to do.
The "word" is precisely what was used to hold people in bondage to begin with. I've done better without it than I have with it, mainly because it's just a book of fairy tales, a few good morals, and some history thrown in together. The "word" I learned in TWI didn't really answer life's questions or provide guidance that wasn't obvious.
quote:Originally posted by Erick Konkel:
This scripture comes to mind when I think of people at GS who carry such big axes to grind. Any logic and truth from the Word that is presented to them is immediately dismissed and sarcastic comments and personal criticisms and insults fly from their mouths.
You've not even given a reason to believe that the "word" you hold so highly is any better than a Dr. Seuss book. I've not seen any "logic and truth" from it. Others may find some comfort in it, but that doesn't mean everyone does. Now for the sarcastic comment: I have a Microsoft ADO book beside me, if I quote a passage from it, will you go forth and connect to databases?
quote:Originally posted by Erick Konkel:
They don't want to listen to the light of God's Word concerning this type of situation because if they listened, they would know that God's Word would tell them to let it go, start fresh, and move on with your life. But that's just it, they don't _want_ to hear that. They are all too content having fury grow like so many weeds and vines that suffocate and choke the life out of the beautiful garden of their hearts for God and for people. Instead of sprinting ahead in life with their new found liberty in Christ, they instead wish to remain spiritually oppressed and enslaved by bitterness.
You've not given any proof of God, therefore there is no proof that the "word" is more than a book written by many different people, and no proof that we should follow what it says, even if you can quote a verse or two.
As far as the other part of your comment goes, in some cases you are right. In others, you are wrong. It all depends on the individual. Some here, especially if they were Corps that were kicked out after the woman was raped by LCM, will never heal completely. If someone was a part of TWI for 6 months, then they don't see what the big deal is. Either way, I think most people simply come to this site to learn what the truth of the matter is. Why do you think people are obsessed with digitally restoring JFK's murder videos? He's already dead, but they want to know the truth. Wanting to know the truth doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.
quote:Originally posted by Erick Konkel:
This is also very hypocritical to say because in fact it is many here at GS who claim to despise VPW, who indeed are the ones who worhsip him. They are consumed with him. The man has been dead for almost 20 years and yet people who have been out of the Way, some people for decades, are still obsessed with what is happening with the Way International. People basically eat, sleep, and drink here at GS.
People do the same thing for Everquest and the stock market. Perhaps it's sort of a hobby for some people, perhaps it's what they do to be social with people they knew in TWI, perhaps it's research for some. Outside of the "About the way" area, I don't think the organization is talked about that much. In the Open area, people talk about anything and everything that they want, usually not about TWI. In the politics section, I haven't seen the organization mentioned once that I can recall.
quote:Originally posted by Erick Konkel:
People are consumed with what VPW wrote, what VPW said and what VPW did. And people will spend all their free time checking up on what's going on with the Way or checking to see what someone has to say about the Way.
Gossip is popular on just about any subject.
quote:Originally posted by Erick Konkel:
I would love to see how many people come home from work, throw their keys on the table and the first thing that they do is walk over and fire up that computer because they gotta see what's happening in discussions about the Way. It's out of control. It's an obsession for many people here.
Perhaps, or even worse, people like me that look at it a few minutes every once in a while during the day. The horror!
Actually, this is one of many sites I surf, especially at work while I'm waiting on 30 minute database queries to run, or watching an automated process that I programmed run to make sure it is functioning normally. I don't GSurf much from home though, unless I'm bored and the wife is watching something I don't like on TV.
Boredom is a far better motivation for me to stay active on the internet than obsession. Of course, every person has a different story and reason for being here.
quote:Originally posted by Erick Konkel:
No wonder you never get over the hurt. How can you ever move on and repair your heart when you bathe yourself in bitterness? You can't.
Yeah, just like those stupid people who keep obsessing over September 11th too. Let's just forgive Usama bin Laden, it's been a whole year and a half now since his people attacked. Let's just forget it happened and stop criticizing al Qaeda, because it only breeds bitterness.
quote:Originally posted by Erick Konkel:
And as a matter of fact, if that kind of thinking goes on long enough (which for many here, it has), spirits _will_ come in and take up residence in your heart to try to insure that you _never_ get over it. Yes, that's right folks, I am still one who believes that there are devil spirits and that they enter people's lives through weak, ungodly thoughts and habits of life.
Well, add devil spirits to the list of things you have to prove to the rest of us. I for one don't think they exist.
quote:Originally posted by Erick Konkel:
There are many weak and ungodly thoughts posted by people here at GS. And saying we should forgive one another is not one of them.
I wouldn't say that I have a lot of weak thoughts posted here, I'm pretty stubborn. I also can't judge something as being ungodly, because there is no proof of any gods existing to base ourselves off of.
Anyway, you should calm down, and just let people post what they want here. If you feel they are in error, confront them in their post, then move on. There's no need to try and create a you vs. gscafe situation to validate your delusions of being picked on. If you like VPW and what he said, that's your choice. Feel free to discuss it, and others will feel free to discuss their thoughts too.
Yeah, just like those stupid people who keep obsessing over September 11th too. Let's just forgive Usama bin Laden, it's been a whole year and a half now since his people attacked. Let's just forget it happened and stop criticizing al Qaeda, because it only breeds bitterness.
That ball is going... going... GONE! Grand slam for P-Mosh! :D-->
I'm not here to point at, I'm here to point out and offer help. Am I willing to put my money where my mouth is? You damn right.
What do you want? What do you want to know? What can I do to help? You want to get to know me? Do you want to talk on the phone? Do you want to email back and forth?
You have no idea how ready and willing I am to offer anything I can to anybody who wants to get past this obstacle of betrayal in their lives.
I'd talk to someone for months if they wanted. I would be very blessed to do anything I possibly could. If people really want to get past it and they just aren't looking for someone to debate with, I would more than glad to listen to what they are going through, to listen to what they are feeling and what obstacles are in their hearts that are preventing them from being set free.
I'd be more than glad to share everything I did and what worked for me to help me bury my past and lay it to rest.
Name the time and the place and I'm there...for any of my brothers and sisters, even for the ones who have called me a jerkoff. :-)
Mark S., as far as you thinking I have little to offer the Body of Christ, well, opinions vary.
Erick: Please understand, not everyone here needs or wants "help". Trust me, when I first stumbled on Waydale I had the same idea, "Gosh, if these folks would just go back to the way it used to be in The Way, they'd all live happily ever after."
bzzt! WRONG!
It's sort of like coming upon a car accident. "I've got to help!" you think, and run up and start pulling people out of the car as fast as you can, without noticing that the arm you just grabbed was broken in three places, or that the door handle was the only thing compressing a severed artery that is now making the victim bleed to death. Whoops. Furthermore, you see someone standing by the wreck, and immediately jump to the conclusion that that person was in the car too, and they're suffering from some sort of inobvious head trauma, so that's why they aren't pulling folks from the wreck.
Does that make sense? Sometimes the hardest thing to do is do nothing until Jesus drives up in the ambulance.
Comfort them, but for God's sake, don't make it worse when you don't know what you're really doing.
When I see your posts, I think of only one scripture.
Luke 16:31
But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead'.
You don't believe because you don't want to believe. So to even begin to address all of your 5-senses comments would be a total, utter and complete waste of breath.
In case you were not aware of Grease Spot Cafe etiquette. About the Way is a good place to put to practice compassion for your fellow posters who have experienced harm at the hands of cult leaders. Doctrinal would be a good place to state your scriptural beliefs as long as you are open minded to others doctrinal insights and views.
The above would be a good start here in your service to the body of Christ.
That ball is going... going... GONE! Grand slam for P-Mosh! :D-->
Well, al Qaeda can be loosely translated as "The Way" in Arabic. I just figured people traumatized by either organization will take a while to get over it, if ever.
"Name the time and the place and I'm there...for any of my brothers and sisters, even for the ones who have called me a jerkoff. :-)"
Wow! Such dedication! Such commitment! Such sacrifice to go to all that selfless and back-breaking trouble of typing in that sentence that shows how selfless you are!
-->
Yah! And Bill Clinton could feel our pain too.
Ya know, all this supposed emphasis of focusing on our 'deliverance' from bitterness, angst, and obsession with a dead man looks, ohh how did V. P. Wierwille put it, ... ohh so religious, so sincere! Kinda like when VPW showed us in the PFAL class when Paul went to Jerusalem when God told him not to go, remember that segment? And when they all heard these things, they beseeched Paul not to go to Jerusalem. And Paul said "What mean ye to weep and break mine heart? Don't you people know, that I am not only ready, but even to die for the sake of the Lord Jesus?" Man, wasn't that so religious? ... sincere? Yep. But dead wrong.
Remember that? Well, what you're posing here is very similar, except you're song-and-dance is this supposed 'concern' about us 'getting over the bitterness' of the abuses in TWI. That we are delivered into the positive freedom and abundance and yadayadayada. ....
BULL....!! (Yes Virginia, I said a naughty word. Guess what? So did VPW, your 'Father in the Word', plenty of times. I know, 'cause I heard him myself! So please don't come off like you're shocked and like I'm just being 'bitter'.)
You came on here with no other purpose than to defend and whitewash the man Victor Paul Wierwille; that was plainly evident in your first post in "VPW - a believer". (thus drawing my 'jerkoff' comment) People here have b*tched about far more than VPW here; we also picked on LCM, RFR, Clinton, Dubya, each other, etc., etc.
But it was our picking on VPW that got your panties in a knot, and nothing else. Well, that's just tough! Thats life here at the Greasespot. Hey! Nobody made you come here. Nobody is making you read all the anti-VPW postings. Ain't no 'mind control' going on over here.
I got a question for ya, dude. Remember reading in the Gospels where Jesus Christ is going on about the Pharisees and Sadducees and all? I mean, he is going on and on about how wicked they were and calling them whited sepulchers and children of the devil and stuff?
Was He being bitter in your opinion? Or how about Paul going off about the false teachers and apostles in I and II Timothy, Titus and elsewhere. Or Peter doing the same thing in I and II Peter? Were they bitter too?
Or maybe is there something godly about pointing and exposing the examples of teachers and leaders who screw people over, as an object lesson of "This is what a leader is not!"
Personally, I believe the people who still talk about VPW as if he was the biggest pervert of the century don't know him any better than those who constantly admire and sing praises about him.
Both views about VPW, and even LCM, border on the extreme. Whatever experience you had with either man, somewhere along the line I believe most end up either embellishing the positive or the negative just to get their own personal viewpoint across to somebody else.
Afterall, it is pretty hard to picture VPW only as a vile, woman chasing, alcoholic if all you ever saw him do was teach the bible to others. On the other hand, does teaching the bible to a bunch of people make someone impervious to temptation and therefore sinless?
I have no problem with people who see VPW as their hero. Heck, he was my hero at one time too! But then, so was Superman when I was a little kid. But hay, even Superman wasn't completely perfect, especially when he got around Kryptonite.
Does that mean some of you women are better than Kryptonite? I guess it does, if you ended up being VPW's and LCM's achillies heel! But have you ever noticed how all our hero's ended up having their "achillies heel" - their weak spot?
But when I grew up, I also outgrew my need for "Superman". When you grow up spiritually you find you have outgrown your need for a spiritual hero as well. But for some people though, unfortunately, they just never seem to grow up.
"Does that mean some of you women are better than Kryptonite? I guess it does, if you ended up being VPW's and LCM's achillies heel! But have you ever noticed how all our hero's ended up having their "achillies heel" - their weak spot? "
So its the woman's fault? They were the achillies heel?
I hope I am misunderstanding you or you simply used a poor analogy.
Weak spots? Forcing sex on women is more than just a simple weakness one can willingly overlook!
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
After you have been raped, physically, spiritually, and emotionally, then you will be in a better position to tell people how easy it is to let go and get a fresh start.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
I admire you for stating your beliefs strongly. It takes balls to tell people how you feel and let it all hang out.
But I think that most things in life are like a pendulum and most of us swing back and forth between extremes. Moderation is key. The Word you quote to reprove others and others quote to reprove you has elements of truth in it. But are all the words in this thread "fitly spoken" and in "due season" to each of the readers? What the proper season for some of these words is to one person may be the improper season to another. Words that you say to help may not have that effect and vice versa. This may be exactly why there is a verse that says "weep with them that weep and mourn with them that mourn."
Would anyone here say forgiveness is an invalid concept? Of course not, but people will differ as to who and when to forgive according to the Word (or not the Word if that is their postion). To set forth a biblical survey of how and when to give forgiveness to men in these extreme circumstances is quite an endeavor. Even God has requirements for His forgiveness (according to the Bible.) Are men to have NO requirements for their forgiveness?
I do not have a complete understanding of the Bible on this topic so I cannot say much else.
Part of your message is to seek God but also to "get over it". The seeking God can be very rewarding for many but the getting over it can be very difficult for just as many. If you study the human grieving process you will find that each person grieves in different ways. For some it may be writing or "typing" a message expressing the anger and hurt of betrayal. For some it is denial that the hurtful event even happened. It is a complex process that can be quite different for each individual. Encouraging people to discuss and talk about it has been shown to be one of the most KEY elements in recovery. If people can express their deepest feelings it may help them to make sense of what they are going through and perhaps find a way to cope / deal with / resolve / or perhaps even put behind them what has happened to them.
But allow me to put forward the position that even in the Bible the Tresspass offering has an element of restoration back to the wronged party which was typically 20% - so when a man tresspassed against some one and even though it was "in the holy things" of the Lord he still had to make it good. The point was the WRONGED party ended up not just being evened up with but getting MORE than they were tresspassed against. So to God (if I am reading my Bible correctly) forgiving the trespasser was not the only issue. An integral part of the process was SATISFYING the wronged or injured party. You could very well argue the forgiveness to the trespasser was not completed until the restoration happened to the wrong.
Perhaps these verses take on additional meaning:
quote: Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift
I found great inspiration in your story of how you spoke out against the abuse and found yourself fighting though all the "spiritual lightning rod" propaganda in your mind. I would encourage you to keep speaking but also to remember both sides of this story.
No Abigail, the achillies heel is the perfect analogy. All our hero's (comic book and real life) have their achillies heel. Superman looked very big an powerful, that is until he came into the presence of Kryptonite.
To answer your question, So is it the woman's fault they are the achillies heel? Was it Kryptonite's fault Superman became weak and powerless? As the story goes, there were properties about Kryptonite that made Superman become weak and powerless. Perhaps on the surface that implies there were characteristics about the women VPW and LCM encountered that made them cater to their base instincts.
But as the story goes, Superman recovered from his weakness when the "lead shield" was put between him and the Kryptonite. But there wasn't a lead shield between VPW or LCM and the women they took advantage of. Oh yeah, they always talked about the lead shield, the "renewed mind", but they never used it. (Ever notice that?)
Just for the record, for whatever its worth, I agree 100% with what you have said in your opening post on this thread. You have NOTHING to Apologize for...absolutely nothing...so don't even give it another thought...You spoke the truth in what I percieve was love for your brothers and sisters...if they fail to see it that way then its their problem...not yours...so don't let anyone here lay that line on your head or heart.
You nailed it on the head when you said
"You don't believe because you don't want to believe. So to even begin to address all of your 5-senses comments would be a total, utter and complete waste of breath"
If someone here trully wants to make a friend in you, you made that available to them and NOT in the Nauseous manner that GARTHP2000 (shame on you Garth) describes.
Erick, unfortunately and understandably those like have a short lifespan here at GS...exactly for the reasons you enumerate in your opening post.
I bid you Godspeed and know that He shall deliver you to the uttermost.
If you have occasion, consider attending a CES function (http://www.christianeducational.org/) If you ever need someone to talk to I know that Mark Graeser or John Lynn would be willing to be the friend to you that you have offered to be to those here.
Does anyone eles feel eric and dart etc are super special of some sort?
Like they have some type of gift ministry that allows them the abilty to be so much more spiritual than those who disagree?
Gods favor must be well earned.
Ego and arrogant people "help". Help what? Make me think it isnt about grace and mercy because of shed blood but because you have a special skill to manipulate others by judgement and shaming them?
That has been done and taught in the way and by vpw. Your surprized it doesnt work?
hahaha
Jesus just commands us to love one another.
God delivers Eric not you so sorry after all that reading you thought maybe you could be the Saviour , a king someone we adore and worship, listen to a father figure to the hopeless.
nice try. been done. didnt work then wont work now.
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Erick Konkel
Rafael,
I like your analogy. But it kind of proves the point of this thread doesn't it?
Sure it's uncomfortable to pull the splinter out, but what's the alternative? How long will people limp because they have a splinter in their foot that they don't want to take out? If they leave the splinter in, when they know that deliverance is available, then it's like choosing to be in pain.
God's got a mighty big pair of tweezers ya know? No splinter gets past him. If people want it pulled out, then have Him pull it out. If you don't, you better get used to the splinter because it will be there a long time. It isn't going to take care of itself.
CatCup,
I understand the source of your frustration. I feel regret to hear of yet another person who was used and abused by Way leadership.
On the other hand, I think you take things to a little bit of an extreme.
Do you mean to tell me that all of the good things people learned from being involved with the Way at some point is now moot becuase your sister was hurt? Of course not.
Hey, half the crap that was going on in the Way, I never even knew about. So I couldn't be there to support your sister when she needed support. What do you want me to do about it Catcup?
I would never make such a statement that it was "worth" your sister being hurt or anyone being hurt just so I could get what I wanted out of it.
That is very unfair and I have never hinted to such an attitude.
I hope you get over the hurt one day and I hope your sister does too. I hope one day she can go to God and say, "God, that was then, but this now and from this day on, I move ahead with no bitterness, no anger, and no discouragement. I know who I am because you gave me Christ in me!!"
Erick Konkel
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Erick Konkel
Hope Rich,
Concerning hostilities and anger at the past with the Way, I've been delivered from that. The speck isn't in my eye anymore. It's been removed.
Should I not then now try to help my brothers?
Erick Konkel
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ex10
Erick
Maybe, but maybe, it's just a thought I had, but ......would you be willing to help carry the burden of pain, suffering, and grief that some here have?
Jesus did it for you and me, after all. And remember the old poem, "He has no hands but our hands...."
Are you willing to do that Erick? for the sake of the greater good? Sorry for being way too confrontational, if I am. But maybe we who claim to be Christians should put our money where our mouth is, so to speak.
Maybe you're trying to do that. But condemning people for trying to work through their pain, just doesn't cut it for me.
Love to you,
ex10
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excathedra
hi there erick
what thay're way leadurship wouldja be speakun uv ?Link to comment
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Catcup
The "Way Leadership" that used and abused my family is a loooooooooong line headed up by Victor Paul Wierwille, Loy Craig Martindale, Mxxx Wxxxxxx, Lxxxx Pxxxxxxxx, Jxxx Pxxxxx and many others, NONE of whom have EVER apologized to me or any other member of my family for the damage they have done. Not that I believe they ever will. I'm not holding my breath. However, if I get a personal visit from a few folks, I'd be willing to listen. We'll see if they get past my front door depending on the first things out of their mouths.
And no, I don't think you do understand where my frustration comes from. Most of the frustration comes from people who seem to minimize the damage done in favor of what they think they got out of being involved with The Way. However, when you start digging, and I mean REALLY digging the truth, you will see how many lies you have been fed by TWI regarding the truth of God.
You're not there yet. You still think the opium you've been fed is candy, and you patronize me.
And THAT, dear is what is frustrating.
Now I really do have to get back to my equations. Unlike people, numbers are logical. Unlike people, numbers never lie. Therein is truth and peace for me.
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Mister P-Mosh
Judging by the anger you seem to have here, you aren't healed. You are taking stuff that other people say about another person like they are talking bad about you. Sometimes life has unpleasant things, and this site is used to talk about them.
No, people don't go to "him" because there is absolutely no proof of his existance. It's pretty tough to play hide and seek with the boogyman.
The "word" is precisely what was used to hold people in bondage to begin with. I've done better without it than I have with it, mainly because it's just a book of fairy tales, a few good morals, and some history thrown in together. The "word" I learned in TWI didn't really answer life's questions or provide guidance that wasn't obvious.
You've not even given a reason to believe that the "word" you hold so highly is any better than a Dr. Seuss book. I've not seen any "logic and truth" from it. Others may find some comfort in it, but that doesn't mean everyone does. Now for the sarcastic comment: I have a Microsoft ADO book beside me, if I quote a passage from it, will you go forth and connect to databases?
You've not given any proof of God, therefore there is no proof that the "word" is more than a book written by many different people, and no proof that we should follow what it says, even if you can quote a verse or two.
As far as the other part of your comment goes, in some cases you are right. In others, you are wrong. It all depends on the individual. Some here, especially if they were Corps that were kicked out after the woman was raped by LCM, will never heal completely. If someone was a part of TWI for 6 months, then they don't see what the big deal is. Either way, I think most people simply come to this site to learn what the truth of the matter is. Why do you think people are obsessed with digitally restoring JFK's murder videos? He's already dead, but they want to know the truth. Wanting to know the truth doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.
People do the same thing for Everquest and the stock market. Perhaps it's sort of a hobby for some people, perhaps it's what they do to be social with people they knew in TWI, perhaps it's research for some. Outside of the "About the way" area, I don't think the organization is talked about that much. In the Open area, people talk about anything and everything that they want, usually not about TWI. In the politics section, I haven't seen the organization mentioned once that I can recall.
Gossip is popular on just about any subject.
Perhaps, or even worse, people like me that look at it a few minutes every once in a while during the day. The horror!
Actually, this is one of many sites I surf, especially at work while I'm waiting on 30 minute database queries to run, or watching an automated process that I programmed run to make sure it is functioning normally. I don't GSurf much from home though, unless I'm bored and the wife is watching something I don't like on TV.
Boredom is a far better motivation for me to stay active on the internet than obsession. Of course, every person has a different story and reason for being here.
Yeah, just like those stupid people who keep obsessing over September 11th too. Let's just forgive Usama bin Laden, it's been a whole year and a half now since his people attacked. Let's just forget it happened and stop criticizing al Qaeda, because it only breeds bitterness.
Well, add devil spirits to the list of things you have to prove to the rest of us. I for one don't think they exist.
I wouldn't say that I have a lot of weak thoughts posted here, I'm pretty stubborn. I also can't judge something as being ungodly, because there is no proof of any gods existing to base ourselves off of.
Anyway, you should calm down, and just let people post what they want here. If you feel they are in error, confront them in their post, then move on. There's no need to try and create a you vs. gscafe situation to validate your delusions of being picked on. If you like VPW and what he said, that's your choice. Feel free to discuss it, and others will feel free to discuss their thoughts too.
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Zixar
That ball is going... going... GONE! Grand slam for P-Mosh!
:D-->
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Erick Konkel
Ex10,
I'm not here to point at, I'm here to point out and offer help. Am I willing to put my money where my mouth is? You damn right.
What do you want? What do you want to know? What can I do to help? You want to get to know me? Do you want to talk on the phone? Do you want to email back and forth?
You have no idea how ready and willing I am to offer anything I can to anybody who wants to get past this obstacle of betrayal in their lives.
I'd talk to someone for months if they wanted. I would be very blessed to do anything I possibly could. If people really want to get past it and they just aren't looking for someone to debate with, I would more than glad to listen to what they are going through, to listen to what they are feeling and what obstacles are in their hearts that are preventing them from being set free.
I'd be more than glad to share everything I did and what worked for me to help me bury my past and lay it to rest.
Name the time and the place and I'm there...for any of my brothers and sisters, even for the ones who have called me a jerkoff. :-)
Mark S., as far as you thinking I have little to offer the Body of Christ, well, opinions vary.
Erick Konkel
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Zixar
Erick: Please understand, not everyone here needs or wants "help". Trust me, when I first stumbled on Waydale I had the same idea, "Gosh, if these folks would just go back to the way it used to be in The Way, they'd all live happily ever after."
bzzt! WRONG!
It's sort of like coming upon a car accident. "I've got to help!" you think, and run up and start pulling people out of the car as fast as you can, without noticing that the arm you just grabbed was broken in three places, or that the door handle was the only thing compressing a severed artery that is now making the victim bleed to death. Whoops. Furthermore, you see someone standing by the wreck, and immediately jump to the conclusion that that person was in the car too, and they're suffering from some sort of inobvious head trauma, so that's why they aren't pulling folks from the wreck.
Does that make sense? Sometimes the hardest thing to do is do nothing until Jesus drives up in the ambulance.
Comfort them, but for God's sake, don't make it worse when you don't know what you're really doing.
God bless!
Zix
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Erick Konkel
Mister P-Mosh,
When I see your posts, I think of only one scripture.
Luke 16:31
But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead'.
You don't believe because you don't want to believe. So to even begin to address all of your 5-senses comments would be a total, utter and complete waste of breath.
Still love ya though man.
Erick Konkel
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Erick Konkel
Zixar,
Thanks for the post. I understand your analogy.
But you nailed it in your first sentence.
So for those in the Cafe that don't want any help or get angry at my posts, well, pass the danish, refill your coffee and carry on.
Love all you guys,
Erick Konkel
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Mark Sanguinetti
Erick:
"What can I do to help you ask?"
In case you were not aware of Grease Spot Cafe etiquette. About the Way is a good place to put to practice compassion for your fellow posters who have experienced harm at the hands of cult leaders. Doctrinal would be a good place to state your scriptural beliefs as long as you are open minded to others doctrinal insights and views.
The above would be a good start here in your service to the body of Christ.
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Mister P-Mosh
Well, al Qaeda can be loosely translated as "The Way" in Arabic. I just figured people traumatized by either organization will take a while to get over it, if ever.
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GarthP2000
Erick,
"Name the time and the place and I'm there...for any of my brothers and sisters, even for the ones who have called me a jerkoff. :-)"
Wow! Such dedication! Such commitment! Such sacrifice to go to all that selfless and back-breaking trouble of typing in that sentence that shows how selfless you are!
Yah! And Bill Clinton could feel our pain too.
Ya know, all this supposed emphasis of focusing on our 'deliverance' from bitterness, angst, and obsession with a dead man looks, ohh how did V. P. Wierwille put it, ... ohh so religious, so sincere! Kinda like when VPW showed us in the PFAL class when Paul went to Jerusalem when God told him not to go, remember that segment? And when they all heard these things, they beseeched Paul not to go to Jerusalem. And Paul said "What mean ye to weep and break mine heart? Don't you people know, that I am not only ready, but even to die for the sake of the Lord Jesus?" Man, wasn't that so religious? ... sincere? Yep. But dead wrong.
Remember that? Well, what you're posing here is very similar, except you're song-and-dance is this supposed 'concern' about us 'getting over the bitterness' of the abuses in TWI. That we are delivered into the positive freedom and abundance and yadayadayada. ....
BULL....!! (Yes Virginia, I said a naughty word. Guess what? So did VPW, your 'Father in the Word', plenty of times. I know, 'cause I heard him myself! So please don't come off like you're shocked and like I'm just being 'bitter'.)
You came on here with no other purpose than to defend and whitewash the man Victor Paul Wierwille; that was plainly evident in your first post in "VPW - a believer". (thus drawing my 'jerkoff' comment) People here have b*tched about far more than VPW here; we also picked on LCM, RFR, Clinton, Dubya, each other, etc., etc.
But it was our picking on VPW that got your panties in a knot, and nothing else. Well, that's just tough! Thats life here at the Greasespot. Hey! Nobody made you come here. Nobody is making you read all the anti-VPW postings. Ain't no 'mind control' going on over here.
I got a question for ya, dude. Remember reading in the Gospels where Jesus Christ is going on about the Pharisees and Sadducees and all? I mean, he is going on and on about how wicked they were and calling them whited sepulchers and children of the devil and stuff?
Was He being bitter in your opinion? Or how about Paul going off about the false teachers and apostles in I and II Timothy, Titus and elsewhere. Or Peter doing the same thing in I and II Peter? Were they bitter too?
Or maybe is there something godly about pointing and exposing the examples of teachers and leaders who screw people over, as an object lesson of "This is what a leader is not!"
Which do you think it is, hmmm?
I hope I didn't come off too 'vile' for ya.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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ex10
Ok, Erick, now's your chance.
:)-->
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What The Hay
Personally, I believe the people who still talk about VPW as if he was the biggest pervert of the century don't know him any better than those who constantly admire and sing praises about him.
Both views about VPW, and even LCM, border on the extreme. Whatever experience you had with either man, somewhere along the line I believe most end up either embellishing the positive or the negative just to get their own personal viewpoint across to somebody else.
Afterall, it is pretty hard to picture VPW only as a vile, woman chasing, alcoholic if all you ever saw him do was teach the bible to others. On the other hand, does teaching the bible to a bunch of people make someone impervious to temptation and therefore sinless?
I have no problem with people who see VPW as their hero. Heck, he was my hero at one time too! But then, so was Superman when I was a little kid. But hay, even Superman wasn't completely perfect, especially when he got around Kryptonite.
Does that mean some of you women are better than Kryptonite? I guess it does, if you ended up being VPW's and LCM's achillies heel! But have you ever noticed how all our hero's ended up having their "achillies heel" - their weak spot?
But when I grew up, I also outgrew my need for "Superman". When you grow up spiritually you find you have outgrown your need for a spiritual hero as well. But for some people though, unfortunately, they just never seem to grow up.
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Orange Cat
Hey Garth - I just clicked on your site. Awesome rendering. I dare you to put a pic of Vic on the bookcase.
Orange Cat color>
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Abigail
"Does that mean some of you women are better than Kryptonite? I guess it does, if you ended up being VPW's and LCM's achillies heel! But have you ever noticed how all our hero's ended up having their "achillies heel" - their weak spot? "
So its the woman's fault? They were the achillies heel?
I hope I am misunderstanding you or you simply used a poor analogy.
Weak spots? Forcing sex on women is more than just a simple weakness one can willingly overlook!
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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Abigail
Erik,
After you have been raped, physically, spiritually, and emotionally, then you will be in a better position to tell people how easy it is to let go and get a fresh start.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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troubledwine
Erick,
I admire you for stating your beliefs strongly. It takes balls to tell people how you feel and let it all hang out.
But I think that most things in life are like a pendulum and most of us swing back and forth between extremes. Moderation is key. The Word you quote to reprove others and others quote to reprove you has elements of truth in it. But are all the words in this thread "fitly spoken" and in "due season" to each of the readers? What the proper season for some of these words is to one person may be the improper season to another. Words that you say to help may not have that effect and vice versa. This may be exactly why there is a verse that says "weep with them that weep and mourn with them that mourn."
Would anyone here say forgiveness is an invalid concept? Of course not, but people will differ as to who and when to forgive according to the Word (or not the Word if that is their postion). To set forth a biblical survey of how and when to give forgiveness to men in these extreme circumstances is quite an endeavor. Even God has requirements for His forgiveness (according to the Bible.) Are men to have NO requirements for their forgiveness?
I do not have a complete understanding of the Bible on this topic so I cannot say much else.
Part of your message is to seek God but also to "get over it". The seeking God can be very rewarding for many but the getting over it can be very difficult for just as many. If you study the human grieving process you will find that each person grieves in different ways. For some it may be writing or "typing" a message expressing the anger and hurt of betrayal. For some it is denial that the hurtful event even happened. It is a complex process that can be quite different for each individual. Encouraging people to discuss and talk about it has been shown to be one of the most KEY elements in recovery. If people can express their deepest feelings it may help them to make sense of what they are going through and perhaps find a way to cope / deal with / resolve / or perhaps even put behind them what has happened to them.
But allow me to put forward the position that even in the Bible the Tresspass offering has an element of restoration back to the wronged party which was typically 20% - so when a man tresspassed against some one and even though it was "in the holy things" of the Lord he still had to make it good. The point was the WRONGED party ended up not just being evened up with but getting MORE than they were tresspassed against. So to God (if I am reading my Bible correctly) forgiving the trespasser was not the only issue. An integral part of the process was SATISFYING the wronged or injured party. You could very well argue the forgiveness to the trespasser was not completed until the restoration happened to the wrong.
Perhaps these verses take on additional meaning:
I found great inspiration in your story of how you spoke out against the abuse and found yourself fighting though all the "spiritual lightning rod" propaganda in your mind. I would encourage you to keep speaking but also to remember both sides of this story.
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GarthP2000
Orange,
I'm trying to encourage folks to check out my web design and graphics skills, not scare them away.
Besides, I don't do obscene sites.
:D-->
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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What The Hay
No Abigail, the achillies heel is the perfect analogy. All our hero's (comic book and real life) have their achillies heel. Superman looked very big an powerful, that is until he came into the presence of Kryptonite.
To answer your question, So is it the woman's fault they are the achillies heel? Was it Kryptonite's fault Superman became weak and powerless? As the story goes, there were properties about Kryptonite that made Superman become weak and powerless. Perhaps on the surface that implies there were characteristics about the women VPW and LCM encountered that made them cater to their base instincts.
But as the story goes, Superman recovered from his weakness when the "lead shield" was put between him and the Kryptonite. But there wasn't a lead shield between VPW or LCM and the women they took advantage of. Oh yeah, they always talked about the lead shield, the "renewed mind", but they never used it. (Ever notice that?)
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Dartanian3m
Erick....
Just for the record, for whatever its worth, I agree 100% with what you have said in your opening post on this thread. You have NOTHING to Apologize for...absolutely nothing...so don't even give it another thought...You spoke the truth in what I percieve was love for your brothers and sisters...if they fail to see it that way then its their problem...not yours...so don't let anyone here lay that line on your head or heart.
You nailed it on the head when you said
"You don't believe because you don't want to believe. So to even begin to address all of your 5-senses comments would be a total, utter and complete waste of breath"
If someone here trully wants to make a friend in you, you made that available to them and NOT in the Nauseous manner that GARTHP2000 (shame on you Garth) describes.
Erick, unfortunately and understandably those like have a short lifespan here at GS...exactly for the reasons you enumerate in your opening post.
I bid you Godspeed and know that He shall deliver you to the uttermost.
If you have occasion, consider attending a CES function (http://www.christianeducational.org/) If you ever need someone to talk to I know that Mark Graeser or John Lynn would be willing to be the friend to you that you have offered to be to those here.
All the best.
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mj412
Does anyone eles feel eric and dart etc are super special of some sort?
Like they have some type of gift ministry that allows them the abilty to be so much more spiritual than those who disagree?
Gods favor must be well earned.
Ego and arrogant people "help". Help what? Make me think it isnt about grace and mercy because of shed blood but because you have a special skill to manipulate others by judgement and shaming them?
That has been done and taught in the way and by vpw. Your surprized it doesnt work?
hahaha
Jesus just commands us to love one another.
God delivers Eric not you so sorry after all that reading you thought maybe you could be the Saviour , a king someone we adore and worship, listen to a father figure to the hopeless.
nice try. been done. didnt work then wont work now.
Cult thinking is bashed here .
I am not sorry either.
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