Erick, you haven't discovered "new light." Do you imagine no one has ever heard of forgiveness until you, Prometheus of Greasespot, bring us the apostolic gift? Though your arrogance is couched in humility, it is nonetheless arrogance.
Try to understand how others might see you. You say "forgive" but you effectively mean "pretend it never happened." That is not the meaning of forgiveness, Erick.
Everyone who has ever defended Dr. Wierwille's teaching legacy, whatever it may amount to, has felt compelled to re-write history, to un-write history that has been written here on internet bulletin boards. You can't reconcile the work with the man. Nobody can.
So you come as a friend bearing wonderful truths, good news, and God's promises, and you say, "Just agree to pretend it never happened, and you shall enter the Kingdom." A little lie, embraced for Jesus' sake. For Christ's sake! How could it hurt? Who could it hurt?
Erick, one who asks a woman molested by "the Teacher" to forgive and (especially) forget asks only a small thing. All she needs to do is forgive her predator, her rapist. How petty, that she shouldn't comply? How pitiful, how pathetic she is. Denying you, she denies God, because it is the truth you speak. It is a much greater challenge for you to forgive your Greasespot detractors and their unbelieving words. Somehow you bear up under the persecution, and I don't know how you do it. You're a real man, Erick. A "man of God" a lot like your father in the Word. You don't see it? Try.
If I claimed to be a Christian and especially a Bible believing one, I'd look long and hard at Matthew 23 before I even thought about jumping on folks at Grease Spot Cafe. I'd look especially hard at verse 15 and think about how it might apply to Wierwille, Martindale, and some others.
quote:Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Wierwille trained Martindale and some other rather despicable "MOGs." Martindale trained others. BOTH their DOCTRINE and the PRACTICE it enabled hurt people. Both continue to hurt people. When that is no longer true, then there may be little reason for further discussion. Until then, there seems to be good reason.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Wierwille (and others) didn't stop with devouring widow's houses. They devoured young women.
Whether or not people are still being hurt or still dealing with hurt caused by Wierwille, Martindale, or anyone else involved with TWI, as long as anyone can learn, and thereby avoid hurt, there will be reason to discuss them.
For the record, I do not think that you worship VPW.
From what I have gathered from your posts, you seem to have bit of knowledge of scripture, but not too much understanding of how to truly be helpful here at GS.
First. you really need to understand this. This place is not an exclusively Christian commuinity. Many folks here no longer believe that the Bible has the answers to everything. Some do not beleive it at all and and are not interested in help in the form of scripture quoting. "The Word says" means little to these folks.
Others like myself still believe in the Bible, but no longer hold to all of the tennants of PFAL or other TWI literature. Others believe and follow PFAL pretty closely. One or two think PFAL was God- breathed. And some folks are on the fence and working things through. There is no concensus of belief here, although at times some seem to think there is. We are all free to think as we wish.
You say you want to help. OK then consider what it is you can do to really be helpful here. Do you want to be helpful to as many as possible, or just to those who want to "hear the Word" or your version of it ?
Comming to Greasespot and criticizing and reproving folks and making assumptions about how they spend their time is not likely to help too many people here. I doubt that few will be too receptive to that ( as you can see). It is like going into a Pentescostal Church and telling the folks to stop all that babbling because tongues ended with the apostles. You will probably get jumped on.
Are there some bitter folks here? - You bet there are. Is it good to be bitter? - Not at all. But pointing out the bitterness in folks and throwing scripture at it is rubbing salt into wounds of many. It does not help very much. (Neither does answering tit for a tat in regards to the worship stuff.)
Also consider that speaking out againt the abuse and betrayal perpetrated upon people by those entrusted to serve, or against perceived errors in TWI teachings and practices does not necessarily mean that someone is bitter or living in the past. If you go to the main web site you will see that GS's mission is to tell the other side of the story, and this what many of us are doing here. Others have other reasons - fellowship, information, doctrinal discussion, politics, etc.
Why are you here? Seriously. If you really want to be helpful, I would suggest a bit of a different approach.
Dartanian3m wrote, "I know that Mark Graeser or John Lynn would be willing to be the friend to you that you have offered to be to those here."
But only if you agree with them. Been there, done that, threw away the T-shirt. They don't rape people, but their "friendship" is just as shallow as the old TWI "friendship".
Sigh.....My experience is quite the opposite of yours. So?
Hey, look, I've known these guys since I was a teenager, and they have always been faithful friends, through thick and thin. I'm sorry you couldn't seem to work out your differences with them, but does it really have anything to do with the topic of this thread???
It seems to be either people pleasing, or bible worship that comes from the way internationl mind- set.
The people and how we love them or not; and/or to define words seems to be the focus .
This is not normal.
ok?
It is a ingrained mind set from a cult.
Yesterday my boss said it was "how I saw things" "How I approached things".
NO ONE ELES FEELS THIS WAY!
Well I knew I was genuine and this is how I felt. I wasnt lying.
But no one eles has the deep set feeling of not being good enough, or the fear of beng yelled at because your whole life will be destroyed by God or an enemy take your pick.
We learned the world was and is a bad bad place in twi.
We learned about forces out to get ya , (I am still paranoid)
We learned we are special or different from everyone eles.
Some turned it into arrogance, some turned it into being a forever victim, Some just do not think about who they are at all.
I suggest no one is "normal". We are different we have a mindset that s wacked.
We were in a cult, we are capable of some bazzare thinking because of it.
that is why I like GS , where eles would people even remotely understanding of why we are so serious about the most "not normal" thoughts?
We are all trying to recover, the passion to continue in the mind set is strong we do not know what eles to think yet, so when it is also laced with trigger names and words that have a recall in our mind we react like it is a loaded gun in our face.
The "normal" people, the entire population at large God created or didnt wouldnt even think about most of the stuff that comes to our mind.
We have way brain.
Our focus in life is messed up.
We are all doing what we know to do to get well.
fighting about how to do it, helps us learn we still have the ability.
It is a life long thing, this God delievers in a moment idea is fine, yet how we think, how we react, what we do is a minute by minute adventure of years of conditioning being erased.
WE carry the past with us, sorry to blow that twi theory of the past is the past do not dwell on it. We can move forward but bring our lessons with us or we are doomed to repeat the same again and again and allow others to chose our decisions for us(which is an easier route by far) because it isnt our problem if it is wrong then it is someone eles. We really know how to accept this pattern as normal IT ISNT NORMAL!!!!
OR We rise up to be the Leader of all as we aspired to be. NOT NORMAL AGAIN.
Well I am sick of paying for someone eles thinkng for my life.
I am sick of those who think they have arrived at that greater place to tell eveyone eles how to be.
Both were taught by a cult.
Gods love isnt conditional, but our thinking patterns certainly are from the training and education we got in twi, whether we liked it or not it is still in our brain and a part of how we think.
CULT
[This message was edited by mj412 on January 30, 2003 at 7:37.]
Erik, I think that many here do not want to drag around the baggage of un-forgiveness, bitterness and resentment.
Your answer to all of this is to simply pray for deliverence and move on.
I consider myself to have been delivered from many of the problems I had from my involvement with twi. I would like to think that if I knew what was going on with the top leaders I would have left, but you never know till youve been there. I may have found a way to rationalize their behavior.
Having been a branch coordinator I have done some things to people that to this day I am ashamed of, all I can do is beg forgiveness from God and those people. My motives were Godly but terribly misguided.
When I first came to GSC, I thought I had the answers for those who 'wanted deliverence' too, but quickly learned that some here have been thru allot more than me. I was never M&A, not purged for being a homo, etc. The healing process is different for each person depending on the severity of the wound and the nature of the person.
There are some here who REALLY have a handle on the Word. They are not shoving their doctrine down our throats. Everything has a time and place.
I have learned so much here from reading posts, many times I am humbled by the responses here, often when I get to the end of a post everything I wanted to say was already done so and in much greater terms than I could express.
I have gotten inspired by people who at one time seemed so bitter and watching them get healed.
So you basically 'got over' your twi days, huh?
Do you pray TO Jesus?
Are you able to listen to others 'opinions' relating to a section of the bible?
Can you listen to a Christian radio broadcast without the urge to puke?
Which is greater: Accuracy or love?
What I'm trying to say is be quiet, listen and learn. If you are a man of understanding you will gain much.
quote:You don't believe because you don't want to believe. So to even begin to address all of your 5-senses comments would be a total, utter and complete waste of breath.
Still love ya though man.
Erick:
Mr.P-Mosh doesn't believe because he doesn't want to believe? Who are you to make that judgement? What do you know of his life and what he has gone through?
You have your faith. Good deal for you. Some of us don't. It's not so easy as just deciding to believe...not for me anyway.
For all the talk about spirituality vs. five senses, it's still the five senses that get us to spirituality, ain't it?
And you "love" him? You manifest this love by saying that addressing his point of view would be a waste of time?
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
[This message was edited by Oakspear on January 30, 2003 at 18:59.]
Somewhere deep down in all of us, we all want to be the Superhero (Super-conqueror - Romans 8:37) The reason We don't, is because we are too afraid that others will only discover our "achilles heel".
Yet, if we fail to walk by the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, do we then again become slaves to the law of sin and death? Has not the law of life in Christ Jesus made us free from the law of sin and death?
"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his spirit that dwelleth in you."
"Therefore, brethern, we aredebtors, not to live to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
"For if ye live after the flesh ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
Romans 8:11-13
The Word of God makes it very plain with the mind one serves the law of God, but with the flesh one serves the law of sin. (Romans 7:25)
Being a Superhero then (more than conqueror) doesn't have anything to do with - how many people I have "helped", "witnessed to", "won to the Lord", etc. ad nauseum. All these things are the works of the flesh. Now these things may be Godly works, and they may bring me Godly rewards both in the present and the future, but they do not make me "more than a conqueror!"
Being more than a conqueror has to do with destroying the works of the flesh - and that's putting off the old man, putting on the new - IN YOUR MIND, as the Word of God says.
TWI forgot all about that! This is a VERY IMPORTANT POINT in the Word of God. YOU SERVE THE LAW OF GOD IN YOUR MIND - not in your flesh!!! When people got away from serving the law of God in their mind first, that's when things started going down the tubes. When did that happen? Your guess is just about as good as mine.
Erick, you need to "get over" the fact that Greasespot is not an off shoot of TWI. I am not interested in your "holier than thou" attitude, nor do I need you to intercede for me where the spiritual things in life are concerned.
Recovery from any addiction or belief or disappointment can take time and a tremendous amount of emotional energy to get over. God and I are working it out together and to my knowledge he has never told me "to just get over it". When God, not you tells me it is time to move on, then I will.
In the meantime, examining my belief system has actually been a healthy and healing time. Greasespot is a great place because it allows you to think thoughts that you were not allowed to in TWI. It allows you to "feel your emotions" which was very much downplayed in TWI. It offers different points of view and does not say that you have to all have one big "way brain belief" like the borge.
From your posts, I conclude that you are the one who has not gotten over "TWI syndrome". You are still out there telling everyone that your way is right and their's is wrong".
Personally addressing your posts seems a waste of breath to me because you already have your mind set that you are going to be the saviour of Greasespot Cafe. You are the one who is perpetuating the TWI belief.
If you want to know what I am struggling with, please go to the Doctrinal thread and read........My child is a homosexual......
Yep it took a lot of courage to post that knowing how some reactions on Greasespot could be, but I got some wonderful healing advice from the folks on that thread. Also, when I posted that I made it a point in my mind to not take personal anyone who might condemn the situation. I will defend my child of course.
I wish I could describe in words how wrong your "holier than thou" attitude is toward people who are recovering from a tremendous amount of wrong teaching and years of being enslaved by TWI doctrine. But I might be just wasting my breath..........
outofdafog (you should come out of it too, the view is so very clear)
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Hope R.
MJ -
I think they should start their own cult.
:P-->
Hope R. color>size>face>
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun... Billy Joel size>
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QamiQazi
Erick, you haven't discovered "new light." Do you imagine no one has ever heard of forgiveness until you, Prometheus of Greasespot, bring us the apostolic gift? Though your arrogance is couched in humility, it is nonetheless arrogance.
Try to understand how others might see you. You say "forgive" but you effectively mean "pretend it never happened." That is not the meaning of forgiveness, Erick.
Everyone who has ever defended Dr. Wierwille's teaching legacy, whatever it may amount to, has felt compelled to re-write history, to un-write history that has been written here on internet bulletin boards. You can't reconcile the work with the man. Nobody can.
So you come as a friend bearing wonderful truths, good news, and God's promises, and you say, "Just agree to pretend it never happened, and you shall enter the Kingdom." A little lie, embraced for Jesus' sake. For Christ's sake! How could it hurt? Who could it hurt?
Erick, one who asks a woman molested by "the Teacher" to forgive and (especially) forget asks only a small thing. All she needs to do is forgive her predator, her rapist. How petty, that she shouldn't comply? How pitiful, how pathetic she is. Denying you, she denies God, because it is the truth you speak. It is a much greater challenge for you to forgive your Greasespot detractors and their unbelieving words. Somehow you bear up under the persecution, and I don't know how you do it. You're a real man, Erick. A "man of God" a lot like your father in the Word. You don't see it? Try.
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LG
If I claimed to be a Christian and especially a Bible believing one, I'd look long and hard at Matthew 23 before I even thought about jumping on folks at Grease Spot Cafe. I'd look especially hard at verse 15 and think about how it might apply to Wierwille, Martindale, and some others.
Wierwille trained Martindale and some other rather despicable "MOGs." Martindale trained others. BOTH their DOCTRINE and the PRACTICE it enabled hurt people. Both continue to hurt people. When that is no longer true, then there may be little reason for further discussion. Until then, there seems to be good reason.
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LG
I'm going to quote verse 14 also.
Wierwille (and others) didn't stop with devouring widow's houses. They devoured young women.
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LG
An afterthought:
Whether or not people are still being hurt or still dealing with hurt caused by Wierwille, Martindale, or anyone else involved with TWI, as long as anyone can learn, and thereby avoid hurt, there will be reason to discuss them.
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Goey
Erick,
For the record, I do not think that you worship VPW.
From what I have gathered from your posts, you seem to have bit of knowledge of scripture, but not too much understanding of how to truly be helpful here at GS.
First. you really need to understand this. This place is not an exclusively Christian commuinity. Many folks here no longer believe that the Bible has the answers to everything. Some do not beleive it at all and and are not interested in help in the form of scripture quoting. "The Word says" means little to these folks.
Others like myself still believe in the Bible, but no longer hold to all of the tennants of PFAL or other TWI literature. Others believe and follow PFAL pretty closely. One or two think PFAL was God- breathed. And some folks are on the fence and working things through. There is no concensus of belief here, although at times some seem to think there is. We are all free to think as we wish.
You say you want to help. OK then consider what it is you can do to really be helpful here. Do you want to be helpful to as many as possible, or just to those who want to "hear the Word" or your version of it ?
Comming to Greasespot and criticizing and reproving folks and making assumptions about how they spend their time is not likely to help too many people here. I doubt that few will be too receptive to that ( as you can see). It is like going into a Pentescostal Church and telling the folks to stop all that babbling because tongues ended with the apostles. You will probably get jumped on.
Are there some bitter folks here? - You bet there are. Is it good to be bitter? - Not at all. But pointing out the bitterness in folks and throwing scripture at it is rubbing salt into wounds of many. It does not help very much. (Neither does answering tit for a tat in regards to the worship stuff.)
Also consider that speaking out againt the abuse and betrayal perpetrated upon people by those entrusted to serve, or against perceived errors in TWI teachings and practices does not necessarily mean that someone is bitter or living in the past. If you go to the main web site you will see that GS's mission is to tell the other side of the story, and this what many of us are doing here. Others have other reasons - fellowship, information, doctrinal discussion, politics, etc.
Why are you here? Seriously. If you really want to be helpful, I would suggest a bit of a different approach.
Goey
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Steve Lortz
Dartanian3m wrote, "I know that Mark Graeser or John Lynn would be willing to be the friend to you that you have offered to be to those here."
But only if you agree with them. Been there, done that, threw away the T-shirt. They don't rape people, but their "friendship" is just as shallow as the old TWI "friendship".
Love,
Steve
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GarthP2000
Zix,
Yup.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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ex10
Oh geeze.
Steve,
Sigh.....My experience is quite the opposite of yours. So?
Hey, look, I've known these guys since I was a teenager, and they have always been faithful friends, through thick and thin. I'm sorry you couldn't seem to work out your differences with them, but does it really have anything to do with the topic of this thread???
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mj412
It seems to be either people pleasing, or bible worship that comes from the way internationl mind- set.
The people and how we love them or not; and/or to define words seems to be the focus .
This is not normal.
ok?
It is a ingrained mind set from a cult.
Yesterday my boss said it was "how I saw things" "How I approached things".
NO ONE ELES FEELS THIS WAY!
Well I knew I was genuine and this is how I felt. I wasnt lying.
But no one eles has the deep set feeling of not being good enough, or the fear of beng yelled at because your whole life will be destroyed by God or an enemy take your pick.
We learned the world was and is a bad bad place in twi.
We learned about forces out to get ya , (I am still paranoid)
We learned we are special or different from everyone eles.
Some turned it into arrogance, some turned it into being a forever victim, Some just do not think about who they are at all.
I suggest no one is "normal". We are different we have a mindset that s wacked.
We were in a cult, we are capable of some bazzare thinking because of it.
that is why I like GS , where eles would people even remotely understanding of why we are so serious about the most "not normal" thoughts?
We are all trying to recover, the passion to continue in the mind set is strong we do not know what eles to think yet, so when it is also laced with trigger names and words that have a recall in our mind we react like it is a loaded gun in our face.
The "normal" people, the entire population at large God created or didnt wouldnt even think about most of the stuff that comes to our mind.
We have way brain.
Our focus in life is messed up.
We are all doing what we know to do to get well.
fighting about how to do it, helps us learn we still have the ability.
It is a life long thing, this God delievers in a moment idea is fine, yet how we think, how we react, what we do is a minute by minute adventure of years of conditioning being erased.
WE carry the past with us, sorry to blow that twi theory of the past is the past do not dwell on it. We can move forward but bring our lessons with us or we are doomed to repeat the same again and again and allow others to chose our decisions for us(which is an easier route by far) because it isnt our problem if it is wrong then it is someone eles. We really know how to accept this pattern as normal IT ISNT NORMAL!!!!
OR We rise up to be the Leader of all as we aspired to be. NOT NORMAL AGAIN.
Well I am sick of paying for someone eles thinkng for my life.
I am sick of those who think they have arrived at that greater place to tell eveyone eles how to be.
Both were taught by a cult.
Gods love isnt conditional, but our thinking patterns certainly are from the training and education we got in twi, whether we liked it or not it is still in our brain and a part of how we think.
CULT
[This message was edited by mj412 on January 30, 2003 at 7:37.]
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wow76-78
Erik, I think that many here do not want to drag around the baggage of un-forgiveness, bitterness and resentment.
Your answer to all of this is to simply pray for deliverence and move on.
I consider myself to have been delivered from many of the problems I had from my involvement with twi. I would like to think that if I knew what was going on with the top leaders I would have left, but you never know till youve been there. I may have found a way to rationalize their behavior.
Having been a branch coordinator I have done some things to people that to this day I am ashamed of, all I can do is beg forgiveness from God and those people. My motives were Godly but terribly misguided.
When I first came to GSC, I thought I had the answers for those who 'wanted deliverence' too, but quickly learned that some here have been thru allot more than me. I was never M&A, not purged for being a homo, etc. The healing process is different for each person depending on the severity of the wound and the nature of the person.
There are some here who REALLY have a handle on the Word. They are not shoving their doctrine down our throats. Everything has a time and place.
I have learned so much here from reading posts, many times I am humbled by the responses here, often when I get to the end of a post everything I wanted to say was already done so and in much greater terms than I could express.
I have gotten inspired by people who at one time seemed so bitter and watching them get healed.
So you basically 'got over' your twi days, huh?
Do you pray TO Jesus?
Are you able to listen to others 'opinions' relating to a section of the bible?
Can you listen to a Christian radio broadcast without the urge to puke?
Which is greater: Accuracy or love?
What I'm trying to say is be quiet, listen and learn. If you are a man of understanding you will gain much.
love, wow
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act2
Nice post, WOW. We have come a long way, havent we?
Hope all of you are doing well.
God must be smiling on you and yours.
God Bless YOU.
The decisions we make today form our future.
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Oakspear
Erick:
Mr.P-Mosh doesn't believe because he doesn't want to believe? Who are you to make that judgement? What do you know of his life and what he has gone through?
You have your faith. Good deal for you. Some of us don't. It's not so easy as just deciding to believe...not for me anyway.
For all the talk about spirituality vs. five senses, it's still the five senses that get us to spirituality, ain't it?
And you "love" him? You manifest this love by saying that addressing his point of view would be a waste of time?
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
[This message was edited by Oakspear on January 30, 2003 at 18:59.]
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What The Hay
Somewhere deep down in all of us, we all want to be the Superhero (Super-conqueror - Romans 8:37) The reason We don't, is because we are too afraid that others will only discover our "achilles heel".
Yet, if we fail to walk by the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, do we then again become slaves to the law of sin and death? Has not the law of life in Christ Jesus made us free from the law of sin and death?
"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his spirit that dwelleth in you."
"Therefore, brethern, we aredebtors, not to live to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
"For if ye live after the flesh ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
Romans 8:11-13
The Word of God makes it very plain with the mind one serves the law of God, but with the flesh one serves the law of sin. (Romans 7:25)
Being a Superhero then (more than conqueror) doesn't have anything to do with - how many people I have "helped", "witnessed to", "won to the Lord", etc. ad nauseum. All these things are the works of the flesh. Now these things may be Godly works, and they may bring me Godly rewards both in the present and the future, but they do not make me "more than a conqueror!"
Being more than a conqueror has to do with destroying the works of the flesh - and that's putting off the old man, putting on the new - IN YOUR MIND, as the Word of God says.
TWI forgot all about that! This is a VERY IMPORTANT POINT in the Word of God. YOU SERVE THE LAW OF GOD IN YOUR MIND - not in your flesh!!! When people got away from serving the law of God in their mind first, that's when things started going down the tubes. When did that happen? Your guess is just about as good as mine.
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George Aar
Whathe,
"Somewhere deep down in all of us, we all want to be the Superhero"
Says who?
Being just a tad presumptuous, no?
geo.
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Oakspear
George:
I always wanted to be Spider-Man
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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outofdafog
Erick, you need to "get over" the fact that Greasespot is not an off shoot of TWI. I am not interested in your "holier than thou" attitude, nor do I need you to intercede for me where the spiritual things in life are concerned.
Recovery from any addiction or belief or disappointment can take time and a tremendous amount of emotional energy to get over. God and I are working it out together and to my knowledge he has never told me "to just get over it". When God, not you tells me it is time to move on, then I will.
In the meantime, examining my belief system has actually been a healthy and healing time. Greasespot is a great place because it allows you to think thoughts that you were not allowed to in TWI. It allows you to "feel your emotions" which was very much downplayed in TWI. It offers different points of view and does not say that you have to all have one big "way brain belief" like the borge.
From your posts, I conclude that you are the one who has not gotten over "TWI syndrome". You are still out there telling everyone that your way is right and their's is wrong".
Personally addressing your posts seems a waste of breath to me because you already have your mind set that you are going to be the saviour of Greasespot Cafe. You are the one who is perpetuating the TWI belief.
If you want to know what I am struggling with, please go to the Doctrinal thread and read........My child is a homosexual......
Yep it took a lot of courage to post that knowing how some reactions on Greasespot could be, but I got some wonderful healing advice from the folks on that thread. Also, when I posted that I made it a point in my mind to not take personal anyone who might condemn the situation. I will defend my child of course.
I wish I could describe in words how wrong your "holier than thou" attitude is toward people who are recovering from a tremendous amount of wrong teaching and years of being enslaved by TWI doctrine. But I might be just wasting my breath..........
outofdafog (you should come out of it too, the view is so very clear)
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