Witness to Jonestown

[RumRunner]

Yep - I remember that - he did the same with the corps. As I recall (and don't count on my recollection) VP had some story about the CIA Jonestown as an excuse because there was some secret military base they raided and brought back some high tech stuff in the same type of coffins that were used for the bodies.

I am almost 100% positive that it was at the advanced class being taught at Ohio University. VP decided to hold a "family only" meeting to discuss the Jonestown situation. Then VP brings out a believer who had been in the military when Jonestown occurred (NOT John Somerville -- this man was just a private in the army.) The man told us that there was all sorts of secrecy involved in bringing back the bodies. All of his "testimony" to us was hearsay from other guys in the military.

Anyone else recall this?

[cheranne]

I was engaged to a staff sergent who was staioned at Dover AFB,you have to a a security clearance

for most military operations,especially if it is about a differant country.

Some people have this blown way out of porportion, Jimmy Carter was president then so it all lays

on his shoulders and the decision to bring back the bodies or make a mass grave for them at Jonestown.

[Linda Z]

I don't really know the answer but my thought would be that they were returned to American soil because they were American citizens.

Yes, but at the expense of the government? That's the part that seems odd.

I'm not saying I think VP knew the real scoop on what was going on with all this. My question really has nothing to do with what he said or thought. I just think there are some odd things about how the Jonestown aftermath was handled.

There have been plane crashes, tsunamis, explosions, and any number of other types of catastrophes that have occurred outside the US that cost US citizens their lives, and I don't recall the government sending military planes to fetch their bodies.

[waterbuffalo]

My recollection from the secret corps meeting was vp telling us they were all murdered by the CIA, didn't commit suicide, and he had the scoop from a govm't official. It was all hush hush of course.

Here's a really good article from an interview from a survivor:

Jonestown Survivor - Most were people who wanted to do good and live for a cause higher than themselves

[waterbuffalo]

Some quotes that reminded me of myself/other ex-way folks:

In fact, these were mostly ordinary people who joined the temple because they wanted to help their fellow man and be part of something larger than themselves.

"We don't want to face our own responsibility or part in what happened and feel ashamed for being duped or manipulated," he said. "We look for someone else to blame. I realized over time that there was a great need to forgive him, then I could forgive myself."

I agree with part of the second quote. I feel ashamed of my involvement, right or wrong.

[cheranne]

Good artical and vpw was full of crap!

[cheranne]

this also

The public information office at Dover Air Force Base has released 34 pages of documents related to the airlift of bodies from Jonestown to the United States. The military chose the air base in Delaware to receive the bodies due to its previous experience in processing over 500 victims of an airplane crash at Tenerife in the Canary Islands in 1977.The release includes 26 pages of After Action reports which summarize the problems, solutions and recommendations for improvement which various agencies at the air base faced. The reports cover environmental health, engineering, medical, and religious components of the operation.

The other eight pages which Dover Air Force Base released pursuant to this request consist of magazine and newspaper articles, and a December 13, 1978 press release from Delaware Governor Pierre duPont asking for removal of the bodies to California.

[Shellon]

I've watched this three times now and it's on in background again.

I compared the whole thing to TWI but more as a mother and I understand why my parents were so worried about me during the 16 years that I hung out with TWI. Would my husband and I have drunk the kool-aid? I doubt it, but sadly I can't say for sure.

That scares me more than a little

Most painful parts of the film has been the parents, the children, the siblings telling of losing their loved ones to this tragedy.

The one scene where the mama is trying to hang on to her child and they are, as forcefully, trying to pull the child away.....

That story I very much understand.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Shellon

[now I see]

Dover AF Base is routinely used to process military combat deaths, so it's not a far stretch to see that it would logically be the place the Jonestown people would be taken.  

Also, a mortuary in Oakland, CA donated plots for the remaining unclaimed bodies, to move them out of Dover.  

From this article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown it states Jimmy and Rosalind Carter's involvement with Jim Jones, and their apporval and help in securing the Guyanese property for him, pinpointing their involvement with his organization.   Also not such a far stretch to imagine Carter would ok the military invlovement in transporting bodies back to America.

This webpage here uses similar talking to points to what vpw used for the perceived CIA invlovement.

http://abundanthope.net/pages/article_1993.shtml

Hard to say whether any of that is real fact or not.

[Linda Z]

Dover AF Base is routinely used to process military combat deaths, so it's not a far stretch to see that it would logically be the place the Jonestown people would be taken.  

I did a bit of Googling on this, which showed that civilians' bodies have also been brought there after overseas disasters, like the two planes crashing into each other at Tenariffe that Cheranne mentioned earlier. What I haven't found, though, is anything that says that US military planes have transported bodies to Dover after any other disaster. They well might have, but I coudln't find any info on it if they did. In that Tenariffe crash, Pan Am Airlines transported the bodies to Dover AFB.

Also, a mortuary in Oakland, CA donated plots for the remaining unclaimed bodies, to move them out of Dover.  

I read that, too. It's logical, since I think most of the passengers on the Pan Am flight were from California.

From this article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown it states Jimmy and Rosalind Carter's involvement with Jim Jones, and their apporval and help in securing the Guyanese property for him, pinpointing their involvement with his organization.   Also not such a far stretch to imagine Carter would ok the military invlovement in transporting bodies back to America.

I don't know if that's true about the Carters. Wikipedia is a pretty shaky basis for anything, especially something this controversial.

This webpage here uses similar talking to points to what vpw used for the perceived CIA invlovement.

http://abundanthope.net/pages/article_1993.shtml

Did you investigate that site much, now I see? It's pretty wild. If you poke around a bit there, you'll find that this "Abundant Hope" group is into mental telepathy, speaking for dead people (one of their leaders claims Abraham Lincoln told him to start a Web site so that he (Lincoln) could make comments through him (the leader). They also claim Jesus has already returned, that we don't need a savior because we're all potential messiahs, and that the true 2nd coming will involve visitors from stars. They're also into reincarnation and a lot of other strange (to me) stuff.

After I skimmed their site long enough to see what they are into, I didn't bother to read their article on the "truth" about what happened at Guyana. These people sound even more out there than twi on it's wildest day.

Hard to say whether any of that is real fact or not.

[now I see]

Linda, exactly, I regard Wiki the same as you do-unreliable to a certain extent, content often "donated" by its readers, the same with the abundanthope webpage regarding the CIA contributions.  The Wiki page's information about Rosalyn and Jimmy Carter's involvement is accurate and corroberated by news sources, including the Cnn's "Escape from Jonestown" broadcast last week.

The abundanthope.net website is particularily on shakey ground which seem to be fertile ground for these conspiracy theories.  Their instability and outlandishness give more substanciation to their claims being false rather than their theories being the truth.  I put that last link up there as a  representation of what vpw heralded as the real facts behind Jonestown.

Unless I see rock hard evidence that gives creedence to the conspiracy theorems, then I'm going to put them and vpw's rantings in the same circular file and chalk it up to paranoic Drambuei dreams.

Edited November 17, 2008 by now I see

[George Aar]

Unless I see rock hard evidence that gives creedence to the conspiracy theorems, then I'm going to put them and vpw's rantings in the same circular file and chalk it up to paranoic Drambuei dreams.

Gawd, has there ever been a "big" news story that DIDN'T have a gazillion cornspiracies spun around it? As a former cult member and a former Kennedy Assassination conspiracy enthusuiast, I've come to the conclusion that the conspiracy stories are FAR more suspect than the actual one. If it sounds too fantastic, too earth-shattering, too unbelievable to be true, it MOST likely is bollchit.

Mentally diseased people (i.e. Wierwille, Jones, Koresh, Dahmer, etc.) can and do commit heinous acts. But to get NUMEROUS otherwise normal everyday folks to participate in a huge conspiracy - and then KEEP the secret, is just too far outside of the actions human behavior would otherwise dictate...

[now I see]

I can't believe how we willingly gave so much creedence to what vpw said, considering his real motives and predilections.

Here's the front page of Cnn's special programs, including Escape from Jonestown, many links, videos, testimonies, audio tapes, FBI docs and transcript links.

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/

[waterbuffalo]

I can't believe how we willingly gave so much creedence to what vpw said, considering his real motives and predilections.

See, I'm with you. It's as if it was another person. Not me.

It had never occurred to me to even consider that the Jonestown believers were just like us--good, big-hearted people who wanted to help their fellow man and contribute to a cause greater than themselves--until after exhausting every other option on cable TV last night, I decided to watch the Jonestown documentary.

Omg. Watching the survivors tell their stories...yes, eerily, as another poster said, they all reminded me of former way believers. The one thread that ran throughout, imo, was that they all were undoubtedly intelligent, talented, attractive, patriotic, loving, compassionate individuals and some are educated professionals.

As the school teacher in Calif. said of her deceased family and friends, "They were some of the nicest people you'd ever want to meet." That's what I saw in each of them as they told their stories. As one of the sisters said--I'll paraphrase--calling them cultists is so wrong because then you don't have to think of them as individuals, human beings, people--and that is so wrong. 300+ PEOPLE died down there. They all had families. They were all individual people who died. Not a crazy group.

What I used to think about them--that's what people used to think about me when I was in. Scary.

Watching that documentary has taken a piece of my heart and cleared out some junk in my heard about who those people were and possibly about who I was when I was associated with twi. For the first time since coming to gsc, I didn't feel ashamed to have been associated with twi. I remembered who I was back then and how I really did feel we were helping people and doing good in the world. As a survivor said last night, they couldn't be bought. It wasn't about money for them. It wasn't for us in twi, either. We, or at least I and the majority of the others that I was close with in twi, really believed we were living for a higher purpose and helping man-kind.

So, it was me, and it wasn't me. That part of me that totally trusts in people/organizations is gone. But, I like to think the good parts are still there--just have found healthier outlets and hopefully am doing work that makes a difference in the world while not sabotaging my own self, life, career, interests...

[now I see]

Amen to that, I feel the same way, hopefully we all can find peace in the now, and are not haunted by what we were, what was, and what could have been.