His young son is pretty angry about how his dad is treated.
I think I understand this. There was a big difference between the way LCM and DLM were treated. After LCM was dethroned, he was put into the research department. He couldn't cut it. He wasn't a workman of the word. He was a talented speaker, but he had to depend on the work of others for his material. It didn't work out. We were told he was going on the field to get things ready for his family. Well, they apparently never came. Maybe that's how he was convinced to go without them. Maybe his son was tricked into believing they would all get back together.
DLM on the other hand stayed in the Corps Chalet for a long time. She has never lost her Way Corps status. She eventually moved to Founders Hall, don't know where she is now. But she was given the support of their longtime friends, he was not. That must be very difficult to see, for a son who loves his Dad.
DLM may or may not have known about LCM's affairs, but she was more than well aware of how viciously he treated people. She was his staunchest supporter. She sat there while he ranted and raved and applauded for him. She thought his temper tantrums were inspired of God. She not only tolerated, but also encouraged his ridiculous behavior. She promoted it even to the detriment of her children.
She once shared how her oldest daughter would cry when LCM yelled at people. She would ask "Why is Daddy mad at the people?" I forget what DLM said her response to her daughter was. But she thought it was cute how much it upset the child. Her daughter was traumatized and DLM thought it was a cute story to share.
Kids aren't stupid. They eventually see their parents for who they really are. But it can take a long time though. I feel sorry for the young man. He was raised to believe his Dad could do no wrong. He was probably deeply traumatized when it all came crashing down. This young man saw for years how harshly his parents treated people who got divorced. Then his parents go and get divorced. How confusing and hurtful it probably has been for him.
Although I do feel sorry for her and have some fond memories of her, I don't consider DLM as a helpless victim of an abusive husband. I hope she has turned her life around.
LCM, if for some reason you are reading this, please be honest with your son for his sake. Don't play the blame game. Own up to what you did and where you went wrong. Not just the affairs, he's already got that figured out. But tell him how wrong you were to have treated people so badly. Don't justify it. If you continue to have a poor me attitude, your son will have a skewed and unhealthy perspective on life. Be thankful your son hasn't followed what you taught and marked and avoided you. Own what you did, at least to your son for his sake.
I also hope LCM has or will turn his life around. I hold no ill will to any of them. As the years go on I'm only left with compassion. A much better place then where I used to be.
"His young son is pretty angry about how his dad is treated"
treated by whom?..does this imply that the young Martindale is a lurker at the Greasespot cafe?
If that's the case, maybe the young Martindale would like to post and speak his mind?...Unless of course, he would rather read what others say and give no response? Afterall, if you have nothing valid to say, why not keep your mouth shut and simply be a.........................lurker.
"His young son is pretty angry about how his dad is treated"
treated by whom?..does this imply that the young Martindale is a lurker at the Greasespot cafe?
If that's the case, maybe the young Martindale would like to post and speak his mind?...Unless of course, he would rather read what others say and give no response? Afterall, if you have nothing valid to say, why not keep your mouth shut and simply be a.........................lurker.
I would also like to hear an arguement on anyway that lcm has been mis-treated.
Actually, if I thought about it, i would be angry at how lcm was/is being treated treated. I think he should be serving time in prison for the things that he has done. I do believe he will be held accountable to God for the terrible things he did in His name.
"His young son is pretty angry about how his dad is treated"
treated by whom?..does this imply that the young Martindale is a lurker at the Greasespot cafe?
If that's the case, maybe the young Martindale would like to post and speak his mind?...Unless of course, he would rather read what others say and give no response? Afterall, if you have nothing valid to say, why not keep your mouth shut and simply be a.........................lurker.
Probably angry- at how dad was de-maled by rosie.. the rest of the "trustees".. leadership.. and perhaps even donna. He's put out of the fold.. his "research" taught by others, and poor loy is languishing away somewhere, hardly a footnote now in the official cult history..
I highly highly doubt the angry young man lurks here.. if it were my dad, I don't think I would, or could.
He's not the only "angry young man"..
look at the sewers kid.. he is angry. At the treatment pops got from rosie and da ministry.. how the "spiritual calling" of the wienerville family was supposedly arbitrarily set at nought..
and pops and the rest of the "board" probably are just as angry.. at the "treatment" vic gets.. that it "really wasn't all his fault.. da PEOPLE made him do it.."
I think the masked rage is at the least, dangerous.. especially seeing them try another go at the cornfield cult bizz..
And their "renewed mind" delusionality won't allow them to really deal with it..
There must surely be a deal between TWI and LCM involving his acceptence into TWI's equivalence of a witness protection program. He is a high risk person to them who could potentially blow up what is left of the TWI Senior Living Center. Perhaps after all the statutes of limitations have expired, he is at no risk of future litigation and at the end of his rope living in total obscurity and disgrace, King Okie will rise from the ashes to haunt Rosie and her minions living in the cornfields of Ohio.
At least this would be a nice ending to the horror story.
Perhaps after all the statutes of limitations have expired, he is at no risk of future litigation and at the end of his rope living in total obscurity and disgrace, King Okie will rise from the ashes to haunt Rosie and her minions living in the cornfields of Ohio.
At least this would be a nice ending to the horror story.
Hmmm... now there's a thought... word has it that he currently still thinks he did nothing wrong, that he (and twi by proxy) is a victim of an attack from the adversary.
So the questions are:
Will twi royalty be arrogant enough to cut King Okie loose once the time limits run out, thinking he will remain loyal anyway? And if they do, WILL Craig remain loyal to the end or finally realize he was just as expendable as the rest of us, and start spilling the beans?
I had a friend in Toledo who ran in to LCM a few times, and she went to his apartment at least once. Thinking back, I believe she boinked him. I think this because of her extreme need to feel wanted by men, and her unrelenting support of LCM. She said he spoke to her about the women he had relations with and how they were willing and horny as dogs to sleep with him. I believe that could have been the case for a FEW of them. Certainly many had to be convinced to do that sort of thing.
The way my "friend" relayed information is that LCM thought he was having affairs, not sexually abusing women. I'm sure his twisted mind thinks that is true as he forgets how he had some of them groomed to be his play toy and how they manipulated people in to thinking it was godly to service the MOG. I believe LCM's mind is so twisted, he can't see the truth.
I feel badly for his son. He probably knows TWI is a bunch of $h*t. He only grew up with his dad being served like a King. Of course he's going to think his dad was wronged by TWI. I'm sure he loves his dad. He is in a tough spot none of us will probably ever experience. I pray he can see the truth of the situation and live a mentally healthy and prosperous life.
I suppose that lcm has justified everything in his mind...and some people accuse me of being bitter...sure I'm bitter...and none the less for it. I call it righteous indignation.
I don't lose any sleep over it and I rarely think about it except when I come here...it's an opinion I have of the guy and of course, feelings of disdain seem to accompany this opinion.
...I feel that the truth about twi, Wierwille, Martindale and the rest of them needs to be told...So that the victims can come to terms, and future "recruits" can be warned. Twi is a cult, always has been...and if you get involved, you're likely to get burned.
I can't imagine that they DON'T pay him. I think it reasonable to assume that twi gave him a golden parachute...his wife and kids were allowed to stay, and wasn't he living in a house that twi owned? He probably gets monthly checks.
I'd imagine checks would be documentable, and like on irs 1099 miscallaneous income forms..
If anything, it's probably cash.. probably have a couple extra garbage bags full from roa days..
"His young son is pretty angry about how his dad is treated"
treated by whom?..does this imply that the young Martindale is a lurker at the Greasespot cafe?
If that's the case, maybe the young Martindale would like to post and speak his mind?....
How fair a hearing do you think he'd get?
One thing I have found interesting is that so many people were, by their own admission suckered into being a part of the unthinking herd already in thrall.
Now they are out, so many seem willing to join another herd, in this case a cyber-lynch mob out to persecute others while employing standards they would not like used upon themselves if they were accused.
I mean, do you have any idea how it looks for people to put up posts demanding the accused to show up and try to make their case against a loud, jeering, foul-mouthed mob?
I find it incredible that these posts appear all through the threads here, as if the GS-ers posting them have a realistic expectation they will get their wish.
Now they are out, so many seem willing to join another herd, in this case a cyber-lynch mob out to persecute others while employing standards they would not like used upon themselves if they were accused.
at least we know how to have fun..
Come to think of it, if I abused to the extent of his loyness, I wouldn't REALLY expect any different "standard".
Or is he really THAT deluded..
I really think after the initial furor, he'd get a lot better treatment than he'd think..
I mean, do you have any idea how it looks for people to put up posts demanding the accused to show up and try to make their case against a loud, jeering, foul-mouthed mob?
foul mouthed? I'll say this as nicely as I can: "speak for yourself.."
Was LCM an abusive, arrogant cult leader and sexual predator?
The facts are pretty clear about this. He was.
Is LCM narcissist?
I don't know. I doubt many here are qualified to make that diagnosis and probably none who may be qualified have actually interviewed him.
Could LCM seen the error of his ways?
Perhaps...or not. Who can say? Has anyone talked with him lately?
First, we don't have all the facts in the first allegation.
LCM has not presented his side of things.
Would you like to be judged, convicted, and stalked largely on the basis of lurid accusations and not be given a chance to defend yourself? Would you want a biased set of jurors decide your fate before you had any opportuntiy to defend yourself, challenge or cross-examine evidence and witnesses against you, present your own evidence and not give you any chance at an appeal?
Good grief, justice in the colonies 400 years ago was more advanced than what is being practiced here.
Narcissist?
I agree with you.
Long ago I learned to leave clinical, medical diagnoses to the pros. I imagine we all worked "diagnosis" - experiential firsthand knowledge.
On the last point, I also agree.
I never met the man and back in the day didn't like the way some things were done.
When one looks at the way the crowd here is, they have already convicted the man and have no shyness about not only 'diagnosing' him from afar, but in deciding what God should do about it.
We see what could be taken for an endorsement of the Roman Catholic practice of confessing one's sins to people, instead of God.
Isn't that one of the things the mob is clamoring for?
I never met Craig Martindale, but I saw him on videos and heard him on tapes
He appeared and sounded very arrogant and proud, as was common in many Way Leaders who were not practicing down to earthness, humilty, and compassion
As to the rape charges, Id say thats up to the woman who got raped, unless of course he hurt her so bad or killed her in which case she would be unable to report it. But its their responsibilty to report if they had been raped, thus not only fulfilling justice, but also protecting other women. I myself could also be found somewhat guilty because I lost my virginity when I was in the Way, I assure it it was not rape, and we both were older than 21, but I do recall some red wine being involved.....
As to whether Craig is repentant? Hmmmm I guess thats between him and God, but I know hes definitely tring to hide his past, I mean like he never went to anything like ex Cult Leaders Aonomys, or had any Psychiatric counseling for it, or maybe he did?
And he never posted an apology here...but I guess hes too embarassed about how he got fired and the sexual situation(s) Knowing his history of pride, I really think this is consistent with his personality
Is he Narcissistic ( did I spell that right?) Well I can only mnetion that dance routine he did for Athletes of the Spirit. I mean , think about it, what if Billy Graham, The Pope, or any other Christian Pastor had a Christian show going on, and they insisted on being the star! I mean it was ballet no less! makes me have a big laugh
Stalked? I don't think that term is quite accurate or appropriate to the situation here.. I for one am not following him around, observing his habits.. seeing where he works, who he associates with..etc. etc..
If I understand you, I think you might be suggesting more that "his name is prominently mentioned", second only to the vicster.
Just because the vicster is prominently mentioned here, one could not infer that he is being "stalked" either.
Or P*n*rello, or Geer, or any other abusive numbnuts..
And not only met him but knew him and worked with him.
They say he was abusive, arrogant and prone to sexual predation.
I value their opinions.
As for the rapes, there are people right here on GSC who could and have given first hand accounts.
And it always seems to somehow come back to victim blaming instead of outrage over the atrocious behavior of these men who claimed to be God's representatives. Kinda like a magic trick. Take the focus off the reality and direct it to the deception.
I don't think there is really any doubt that VPW did, in fact, commit the heinous acts that have been related.
Why didn't the victims press charges? Only they can say. It's really none of our business. It doesn't change what happened or make it go away. It's not their fault they were raped by a man they should have been able to trust.
And then, VPW groomed LCM to walk in his footsteps. But the shoes didn't fit correctly and he stumbled and fell in his clumsiness. Your ABS and mine helped to fund a deal that was intended to make it all disappear, vanish into thin air so the poor saps who funded TWI would be none the wiser. And maybe if enough people could be hushed, there would be some who never have to find out the ugly truth about what a corrupt and dark organization TWI really was and is.
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excathedra
great post, my friend seth
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finallyunderstand
I think I understand this. There was a big difference between the way LCM and DLM were treated. After LCM was dethroned, he was put into the research department. He couldn't cut it. He wasn't a workman of the word. He was a talented speaker, but he had to depend on the work of others for his material. It didn't work out. We were told he was going on the field to get things ready for his family. Well, they apparently never came. Maybe that's how he was convinced to go without them. Maybe his son was tricked into believing they would all get back together.
DLM on the other hand stayed in the Corps Chalet for a long time. She has never lost her Way Corps status. She eventually moved to Founders Hall, don't know where she is now. But she was given the support of their longtime friends, he was not. That must be very difficult to see, for a son who loves his Dad.
DLM may or may not have known about LCM's affairs, but she was more than well aware of how viciously he treated people. She was his staunchest supporter. She sat there while he ranted and raved and applauded for him. She thought his temper tantrums were inspired of God. She not only tolerated, but also encouraged his ridiculous behavior. She promoted it even to the detriment of her children.
She once shared how her oldest daughter would cry when LCM yelled at people. She would ask "Why is Daddy mad at the people?" I forget what DLM said her response to her daughter was. But she thought it was cute how much it upset the child. Her daughter was traumatized and DLM thought it was a cute story to share.
Kids aren't stupid. They eventually see their parents for who they really are. But it can take a long time though. I feel sorry for the young man. He was raised to believe his Dad could do no wrong. He was probably deeply traumatized when it all came crashing down. This young man saw for years how harshly his parents treated people who got divorced. Then his parents go and get divorced. How confusing and hurtful it probably has been for him.
Although I do feel sorry for her and have some fond memories of her, I don't consider DLM as a helpless victim of an abusive husband. I hope she has turned her life around.
LCM, if for some reason you are reading this, please be honest with your son for his sake. Don't play the blame game. Own up to what you did and where you went wrong. Not just the affairs, he's already got that figured out. But tell him how wrong you were to have treated people so badly. Don't justify it. If you continue to have a poor me attitude, your son will have a skewed and unhealthy perspective on life. Be thankful your son hasn't followed what you taught and marked and avoided you. Own what you did, at least to your son for his sake.
I also hope LCM has or will turn his life around. I hold no ill will to any of them. As the years go on I'm only left with compassion. A much better place then where I used to be.
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GrouchoMarxJr
"His young son is pretty angry about how his dad is treated"
treated by whom?..does this imply that the young Martindale is a lurker at the Greasespot cafe?
If that's the case, maybe the young Martindale would like to post and speak his mind?...Unless of course, he would rather read what others say and give no response? Afterall, if you have nothing valid to say, why not keep your mouth shut and simply be a.........................lurker.
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excathedra
finally -- your post made me cry
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Zshot
I would also like to hear an arguement on anyway that lcm has been mis-treated.
Actually, if I thought about it, i would be angry at how lcm was/is being treated treated. I think he should be serving time in prison for the things that he has done. I do believe he will be held accountable to God for the terrible things he did in His name.
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Ham
Probably angry- at how dad was de-maled by rosie.. the rest of the "trustees".. leadership.. and perhaps even donna. He's put out of the fold.. his "research" taught by others, and poor loy is languishing away somewhere, hardly a footnote now in the official cult history..
I highly highly doubt the angry young man lurks here.. if it were my dad, I don't think I would, or could.
He's not the only "angry young man"..
look at the sewers kid.. he is angry. At the treatment pops got from rosie and da ministry.. how the "spiritual calling" of the wienerville family was supposedly arbitrarily set at nought..
and pops and the rest of the "board" probably are just as angry.. at the "treatment" vic gets.. that it "really wasn't all his fault.. da PEOPLE made him do it.."
I think the masked rage is at the least, dangerous.. especially seeing them try another go at the cornfield cult bizz..
And their "renewed mind" delusionality won't allow them to really deal with it..
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Calflor
There must surely be a deal between TWI and LCM involving his acceptence into TWI's equivalence of a witness protection program. He is a high risk person to them who could potentially blow up what is left of the TWI Senior Living Center. Perhaps after all the statutes of limitations have expired, he is at no risk of future litigation and at the end of his rope living in total obscurity and disgrace, King Okie will rise from the ashes to haunt Rosie and her minions living in the cornfields of Ohio.
At least this would be a nice ending to the horror story.
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TheHighWay
Hmmm... now there's a thought... word has it that he currently still thinks he did nothing wrong, that he (and twi by proxy) is a victim of an attack from the adversary.
So the questions are:
Will twi royalty be arrogant enough to cut King Okie loose once the time limits run out, thinking he will remain loyal anyway? And if they do, WILL Craig remain loyal to the end or finally realize he was just as expendable as the rest of us, and start spilling the beans?
Only time will tell...
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Jim
Maybe a book deal...
That would be interesting.
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Nottawayfer
I had a friend in Toledo who ran in to LCM a few times, and she went to his apartment at least once. Thinking back, I believe she boinked him. I think this because of her extreme need to feel wanted by men, and her unrelenting support of LCM. She said he spoke to her about the women he had relations with and how they were willing and horny as dogs to sleep with him. I believe that could have been the case for a FEW of them. Certainly many had to be convinced to do that sort of thing.
The way my "friend" relayed information is that LCM thought he was having affairs, not sexually abusing women. I'm sure his twisted mind thinks that is true as he forgets how he had some of them groomed to be his play toy and how they manipulated people in to thinking it was godly to service the MOG. I believe LCM's mind is so twisted, he can't see the truth.
I feel badly for his son. He probably knows TWI is a bunch of $h*t. He only grew up with his dad being served like a King. Of course he's going to think his dad was wronged by TWI. I'm sure he loves his dad. He is in a tough spot none of us will probably ever experience. I pray he can see the truth of the situation and live a mentally healthy and prosperous life.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I suppose that lcm has justified everything in his mind...and some people accuse me of being bitter...sure I'm bitter...and none the less for it. I call it righteous indignation.
I don't lose any sleep over it and I rarely think about it except when I come here...it's an opinion I have of the guy and of course, feelings of disdain seem to accompany this opinion.
...I feel that the truth about twi, Wierwille, Martindale and the rest of them needs to be told...So that the victims can come to terms, and future "recruits" can be warned. Twi is a cult, always has been...and if you get involved, you're likely to get burned.
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Ham
I'd imagine checks would be documentable, and like on irs 1099 miscallaneous income forms..
If anything, it's probably cash.. probably have a couple extra garbage bags full from roa days..
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Deciderator
How fair a hearing do you think he'd get?
One thing I have found interesting is that so many people were, by their own admission suckered into being a part of the unthinking herd already in thrall.
Now they are out, so many seem willing to join another herd, in this case a cyber-lynch mob out to persecute others while employing standards they would not like used upon themselves if they were accused.
I mean, do you have any idea how it looks for people to put up posts demanding the accused to show up and try to make their case against a loud, jeering, foul-mouthed mob?
I find it incredible that these posts appear all through the threads here, as if the GS-ers posting them have a realistic expectation they will get their wish.
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Ham
at least we know how to have fun..
Come to think of it, if I abused to the extent of his loyness, I wouldn't REALLY expect any different "standard".
Or is he really THAT deluded..
I really think after the initial furor, he'd get a lot better treatment than he'd think..
foul mouthed? I'll say this as nicely as I can: "speak for yourself.."
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oenophile
Was LCM an abusive, arrogant cult leader and sexual predator?
The facts are pretty clear about this. He was.
Is LCM narcissist?
I don't know. I doubt many here are qualified to make that diagnosis and probably none who may be qualified have actually interviewed him.
Could LCM seen the error of his ways?
Perhaps...or not. Who can say? Has anyone talked with him lately?
Should he burn in hell for his sins?
Not for me judge. Let him who is without sin cast him into the lake of fire.
Should he have to go to jail or make financial restitution to his victims?
Probably but the statute of limitations has most likely expired. Why weren't criminal charges for rape brought?
Is his failure to make an apology here evidence that he is not contrite?
I am not sure. One would think that one's conscience would direct one to make an apology.
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Deciderator
First, we don't have all the facts in the first allegation.
LCM has not presented his side of things.
Would you like to be judged, convicted, and stalked largely on the basis of lurid accusations and not be given a chance to defend yourself? Would you want a biased set of jurors decide your fate before you had any opportuntiy to defend yourself, challenge or cross-examine evidence and witnesses against you, present your own evidence and not give you any chance at an appeal?
Good grief, justice in the colonies 400 years ago was more advanced than what is being practiced here.
Narcissist?
I agree with you.
Long ago I learned to leave clinical, medical diagnoses to the pros. I imagine we all worked "diagnosis" - experiential firsthand knowledge.
On the last point, I also agree.
I never met the man and back in the day didn't like the way some things were done.
When one looks at the way the crowd here is, they have already convicted the man and have no shyness about not only 'diagnosing' him from afar, but in deciding what God should do about it.
We see what could be taken for an endorsement of the Roman Catholic practice of confessing one's sins to people, instead of God.
Isn't that one of the things the mob is clamoring for?
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Steveo
I never met Craig Martindale, but I saw him on videos and heard him on tapes
He appeared and sounded very arrogant and proud, as was common in many Way Leaders who were not practicing down to earthness, humilty, and compassion
As to the rape charges, Id say thats up to the woman who got raped, unless of course he hurt her so bad or killed her in which case she would be unable to report it. But its their responsibilty to report if they had been raped, thus not only fulfilling justice, but also protecting other women. I myself could also be found somewhat guilty because I lost my virginity when I was in the Way, I assure it it was not rape, and we both were older than 21, but I do recall some red wine being involved.....
As to whether Craig is repentant? Hmmmm I guess thats between him and God, but I know hes definitely tring to hide his past, I mean like he never went to anything like ex Cult Leaders Aonomys, or had any Psychiatric counseling for it, or maybe he did?
And he never posted an apology here...but I guess hes too embarassed about how he got fired and the sexual situation(s) Knowing his history of pride, I really think this is consistent with his personality
Is he Narcissistic ( did I spell that right?) Well I can only mnetion that dance routine he did for Athletes of the Spirit. I mean , think about it, what if Billy Graham, The Pope, or any other Christian Pastor had a Christian show going on, and they insisted on being the star! I mean it was ballet no less!
makes me have a big laugh
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Ham
Stalked? I don't think that term is quite accurate or appropriate to the situation here.. I for one am not following him around, observing his habits.. seeing where he works, who he associates with..etc. etc..
If I understand you, I think you might be suggesting more that "his name is prominently mentioned", second only to the vicster.
Just because the vicster is prominently mentioned here, one could not infer that he is being "stalked" either.
Or P*n*rello, or Geer, or any other abusive numbnuts..
Remembered, yes. Stalked, no.
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waysider
I never met LCM either.
Lots of people here did, though.
And not only met him but knew him and worked with him.
They say he was abusive, arrogant and prone to sexual predation.
I value their opinions.
As for the rapes, there are people right here on GSC who could and have given first hand accounts.
And it always seems to somehow come back to victim blaming instead of outrage over the atrocious behavior of these men who claimed to be God's representatives. Kinda like a magic trick. Take the focus off the reality and direct it to the deception.
I don't think there is really any doubt that VPW did, in fact, commit the heinous acts that have been related.
Why didn't the victims press charges? Only they can say. It's really none of our business. It doesn't change what happened or make it go away. It's not their fault they were raped by a man they should have been able to trust.
And then, VPW groomed LCM to walk in his footsteps. But the shoes didn't fit correctly and he stumbled and fell in his clumsiness. Your ABS and mine helped to fund a deal that was intended to make it all disappear, vanish into thin air so the poor saps who funded TWI would be none the wiser. And maybe if enough people could be hushed, there would be some who never have to find out the ugly truth about what a corrupt and dark organization TWI really was and is.
I hope that never happens.
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