Victor the Sorcerer?

[now I see]

Can we draw parallels between vpw and Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8?  

There's another thread currently, where a poster is challenging whether cornfield vic ever really spoke in tongues or just mouthed the words, "lo shanta malakasito lo shanta".  It made me think of Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8 and whether vpw was the modern day reincarnation of Simon the Sorcerer?--Cornfield vic, having the appearance of the power of god by speaking in tongues, either fake or genuine, but really being a insolent shiester with a hardened heart and proclivity to abuse people, who had no interest in pleasing god.

Acts 8 excerpts:

For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. 

 8And there was great joy in that city. 

 9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 

 10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. 

 11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. 

 12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 

 13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done....

 18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 

 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 

 20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 

 21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 

 22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 

 23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. 

 24Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the LORD for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

This really sounds similar to what the Cornfield Vic did, with no repentance!  I wonder if he chuckled to himself when he taught this section in the Piffle class, seeing the same similarity in his own life, and feeling he'd beat God at his game..Hijacking a great movement of God and deliverance of people, and drawing to himslef, the people, great wealth, position, power and accolade, all while raping and deceiving, and drawing them away from true worship.

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

Are you saying that Cornfield Vic(Build it and they will come) was from the Harry Potter books/movies? <_< :blink: :unsure:

[now I see]

Yeah, in a sad, sad way, it was a combination of "A Field of Dreams", "build it and they will come", and Harry Potter, all good movies, but in reality he bewitched us and led us to a cornfield with stadium lights in Ohio every August!

[Brushstroke]

When I started researching TWI a few months ago, I immediately saw these parallels. Not necessarily between Simon and VPW, but between Simon's bargaining and trying to buy the ability to heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, et al. But it is interesting that you draw this parallel between Simon Magus and VPW concerning speaking in tongues. The Gnostics, in the states of ecstasy that they tried to maintain in order to escape the body which they considered evil, spoke random pieces of babble that had no meaning. On top of this, one can clearly see the connection between Simon Magus and VPW, two men, each of whom "bewitched the people...giving out that himself was some great one." (Acts 8:9)

[oldiesman]

I think the premise is about as dumb as saying that E.W. Kenyon was a Christian Spiritualist, which has been opined on this website before as well.

[waysider]

I think the premise is about as dumb as saying that E.W. Kenyon was a Christian Spiritualist, which has been opined on this website before as well.

This is a straw man argument.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

E. W. Kenyon has nothing to do with the original premise.

[Ham]

I think the premise is about as dumb as saying that E.W. Kenyon was a Christian Spiritualist, which has been opined on this website before as well.

Actually, I've heard a fairly valid argument for just that claim..

I think the "sorcerer" comparison fits the vicster quite well..

"bewitched" or "dazzled" people with SOMETHING. And as his royal drambuieness walked "humbly" in life, he had lackeys and yes men announce his mogdafatdom to the world..

A few are still "dazzled" to this day, twenty some years after his death.

Edited October 16, 2008 by Ham

[oldiesman]

Ok then carry on, let's see what you guys come up with.

[Ham]

The only difference I see between Simon and vic..

Simon offered MONEY. vic skipped a step, and just outright stole the "product".

"I gotta have this POWER.. to *minister* da holy spurt.."

[potato]

Yeah, in a sad, sad way, it was a combination of "A Field of Dreams", "build it and they will come", and Harry Potter, all good movies, but in reality he bewitched us and led us to a cornfield with stadium lights in Ohio every August!

sorry, field of dreams was not a good movie!

The only difference I see between Simon and vic..

Simon offered MONEY. vic skipped a step, and just outright stole the "product".

"I gotta have this POWER.. to *minister* da holy spurt.."

that's what I was thinking, too, brother Ham. which actually makes him several degrees lower than Simon the sorcerer, who was probably just a las vegas style magician, while vpw was more of the snake oil salesman disguised as a country doctor slipping toxic medicine to desperate people.

[Brushstroke]

I think the premise is about as dumb as saying that E.W. Kenyon was a Christian Spiritualist, which has been opined on this website before as well.

Why is the premise as you say?

Your statements often confuse me. Why do you always appear to be opposed to any criticism Wierwille or TWI receives? Are you still a member of TWI, oldiesman?

[oldiesman]

Haven't been to a twi fellowship since 1992. Honest criticism is one thing, nutty Kool Aid ideas with little evidence is another. It is like saying the Pope is a sorcerer, with no evidence. Carry on, I'll bow out.

[Ham]

It is like saying the Pope is a sorcerer

hmmm. what's to say he isn't?

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Shortly after leaving twi (1987), I saw the comparison between Simon the Sorcerer and Vic the one eyed monster...I suppose the phrase "...giving out that himself was some great one" was my first clue. Vic took the place of the absent Christ for crying out loud! ...Was it sorcery?...Well hell's bells rudy, if it wasn't, it might as well have been.

Edited October 16, 2008 by GrouchoMarxJr

[rascal]

I think our lives post twi say it all.

[Ham]

Vic took the place of the absent Christ for crying out loud! ...Was it sorcery?...Well hell's bells rudy, if it wasn't, it might as well have been.

I think maybe the "phenomena" was not unlike Hitler in his early days. They interviewed women who saw him speak, and they said that they were "entranced" with his presence.. he was "superman". Kinda like the crowds of swooning women at an Elvis concert.. hyper-ventilating, getting weak in the knees.. passing out..

Mussolini was pretty much the same.. could really get a crowd charged up..

I think there very well may be a spiritual element to this. I mean.. look at ole vic.. on a physical level, what really was there to look at? What's the attraction?

And there are groups dedicated to keeping his memory alive..

[potato]

<snip>

And there are groups dedicated to keeping his memory alive..

vicster supremists.

[excathedra]

i can't remember much about simon the sorcerer, but that thing groucho said about "some great one" sounds good to me

i don't like many bible-preaching men -- mostly because of their agendas, which usually include power, sex, money

i've always wondered how a "man of god" -- a "father in the word" -- could work so hard to try to screw me -- even to the point of using "the word" WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT GOD AND JESUS CHRIST -- you know, "you've been so abused as a child -- you need to be taught how to be loved with the love of god by a real man of god" -- yuck -- what a line of horse sh_t

[excathedra]

i got a kick out of this

Confessions of a Con Artist

.

The first thing you need to know about a master con artist is that his mark, his sucker, his target never ever realizes that he/she has been swindled. The ultimate crook is the one who never gets caught. He or she is either invisible to the public media or is thought of as a respected member and/or leader of the community.

For an example, see the section below, Confessions of a Con Artist. For an in-depth analysis of con artists and how they function, see the page titled: How to Win with a Losing Issue.°

Confessions of a Con Artist:

Imagine for a moment, that you have just found the secret journal of a religious preacher named Argy Rodes. Argy was one of the minority of people who were immoral, unethical, and would do anything to make a buck except work to earn it. Here's the essence of what you found in his journal:

When I was still in high school, I got to thinking that the world out there was a pretty tough place. My dad, on the few occasions that I saw him, told me that there weren't very many life-long, free lunch counters, so I'd better start figuring out what I was going to do to (in his words) "keep my foot out of the gutter." I'm not much for hard labor, so when my dad also told me that working smart was better than working hard, I actually paid attention to him.

I started looking for a work-smart career. My dad was a currier for one of the small-time, local crime families, so I saw first hand that crime attracted the attention of guys with guns and badges and jails. I knew dad's business wasn't for me.

When I was sixteen, two important things happened to me in the same month and when I connected the two, a flash of lightning hit my brain. The first thing occurred when a circus came to town. I went there with my buddy and lost all the money I had in a slick carnival game. When my mom found out, she just laughed and quoted P. T. Barnum, "There's a sucker born every minute." About two weeks later I saw the film, "Elmer Gantry" which was about a vacuum cleaner salesman turned tent preacher in the 1920's. Talking and telling stories came natural to me, so when I walked out of that theater, I knew I'd found my career.

I started reading the Bible and checking out local churches. Mom thought I'd gotten religion and was pleased. She started encouraging me. I never mentioned that I didn't buy into the religious stories because there were just too many things that didn't make any sense. There was, however, one thing that made really good sense to me. I saw hundreds of people giving money to people who talked about God. As a test, I started making up stories that I thought were so outlandish that nobody would believe them. To my amazement, many of my listeners would respond to my stories with an open mouth stare and say, "Really?"

The first time I got my hand into a girl's panties by telling her she was doing God a favor, I knew I was going to be a king of the hill. At that point, I knew that I was headed straight into the religion business; not for Jesus, not for saving souls, or for helping widows, but to make money; to be a pillar of the community; to make easy money; to be safe from those men with guns and badges; to make lots of money; to "live high on the hog," to have a big home with servants, drive or be driven in luxury cars, drink the finest wines, and have lots of great sex.

Over the years, I've made millions, hobnobbed with the rich and famous, been invited to places that most people don't even dream about, and had secret sex with more beautiful women than anybody I can imagine except perhaps rock stars and Hugh Hefner.

There are tens of thousands of dedicated, kind, honest, loving individuals who are leaders in numerous religious faiths and who are truly working for what they honestly believe are God's wishes. To walk among them, wearing their costumes and pretending to be one of them, has been, for me, so simple and so easy that I'm amazed that I don't find very many others like me. But then, perhaps there are numerous others who are as good at the con game as I have been. Who's to say for sure what someone else's motives really are?

As my life nears it's conclusion, there's one thing I can say with absolute certainty: Religion is the home of some of the greatest con artists on the planet. I hold myself up as a shining, but still invisible, example of a master of con artist. I've lived my entire adult life in a lifestyle at a level that is beyond the reach of 99.99 percent of the other humans on this planet and never, even once, got caught at my game.

So the next time someone starts peddling religion to you, look at his life style. If he lives a modest life, he's almost certainly genuine, but if he spends large amounts of church money on himself, watch out. My advice to the world is to simply offer two quotes from Jesus: "Beware of the wolves in sheep's clothing." and "By their fruits you shall know them."

.

In order to think that there are no con artists hiding among today's religious and political leaders, one has to be either, incredibly naive or believe that Jesus was lying when he warned about wolves in sheep's clothing. The best this author can add to the above quote is to invite you to apply your mind to your religious beliefs and question everything. Become "A Reasonable."°

[Ham]

I wonder how the "manogawd"'s offspring feels about all of this..

does he realize the scam he's trying to run..

or is he just a pawn in the game..

I think.. a little of both.

[Ham]

little sob.. what you shoulda done.. gone peace corps.. actually made a difference somewhere..

naw.. let's just take a short cut to mogdom..

[Seth R.]

Regardless of scripture VPW certainly wasn't the original in many of his views.

Alistair Crowley: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley

Frank Buchman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Buchman

[Ham]

There are an astounding number of parallels between the vicster and Crowley.

Crowley was basically a drug addict, vic gulped down drambuie like water..

crowley abandoned a valid education at the start of his career.. the vicster abandoned the thought of getting a legitimate doctorate and went to a repudiated degree mill..

Crowley was a sex crazed deviant.. the vicster, well..

Crowley chased ever trail imaginable in regards to sorcery, esp, the supernatural..

vic chased after every fruit loop known to evangelical christianity in a desperate, pathetic search for "power"..

Crowley seemed to be in love with causing controversy.. from the Wikipedia article:

Author and Crowley biographer Lon Milo Duquette wrote in his 1993 work The Magick of Aleister Crowley that:

"Crowley clothed many of his teachings in the thin veil of sensational titillation. By doing so he assured himself that one, his works would only be appreciated by the few individuals capable of doing so, and two, his works would continue to generate interest and be published by and for the benefit of both his admirers and his enemies long after death.

vic, on the other hand, wrote in the yellow book "I'm not trying to be an iconoclast".. and then he went on to be one..

there are probably many others, but the biggest parallel between the two, in my opinion:

long after their death, many followers hold fiercely to their "work" like it's da verd of gawd.

[Ham]

and the only major difference.. that I can see-

crowley openly admitted that he was the most evil man alive..

the vicster just hid behind a thin veil of supposed righteousness and goodness..

at least crowley was honest, in this regard.. what you see is what you get..

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

Buchman prefered house/home meetings(can any one say twig) and oppossed Communism like the vicmeister, and eerily Buchman praised Hitler against Stalin, while Barth, Niebur brothers, and Bonhoffer oppossed Buchman for spinning Lutheranism into a strange pardigm"quasi-Christian". Odd how 3 out of the 4 Wierwille claimed taught him at Princeton Seminary(yet VPW ended up rejecting their theology). There is no record of Wierwille ever attending any lectures of Bonhoffer at Yale or elsewhere.