"Fully-Instructed Believer" - someone regardless of their walk, who has taken the Advanced Class at sometime.
This is what every new follower is to get to. This requires them to be totally free of any debt, including home mortgages, student loans...everything. If they are not financially qualified, they cannot get to this level.
"Unbelieving Believer" - Never from 'our' own ranks, but a Christian outside of our group.
"Cop Out" - Evil and deceived for leaving our ranks.
I very much agree, Yanagisawa. As one who was never involved with TWI, I find much terminology in TWI, even terms used in other more mainstream Christian groups, like "the Word of God" to have a strikingly different meaning in TWI language and usage. This is why, often when I speak with my friend who is involved in TWI, about TWI, I have to ask her to explain a certain term because the way she's using it doesn't make any sense.
Honestly, to me, most of what TWI says about how "the Word of God is the Will of God" or "believing equals receiving" or "the Renewed Mind is the key to the Power of Christ in me" or even a simple term like "holy spirit", are pieces of mindless babble which require further explanation. And at that, not even the explanations make sense in light of Christian orthodoxy, let alone standing by themselves. In this way, along with many others, I find elements of the ancient belief system known as Gnosticism deeply ingrained in TWI doxis and praxis.
I very much agree, Yanagisawa. As one who was never involved with TWI, I find much terminology in TWI, even terms used in other more mainstream Christian groups, like "the Word of God" to have a strikingly different meaning in TWI language and usage. This is why, often when I speak with my friend who is involved in TWI, about TWI, I have to ask her to explain a certain term because the way she's using it doesn't make any sense.
Honestly, to me, most of what TWI says about how "the Word of God is the Will of God" or "believing equals receiving" or "the Renewed Mind is the key to the Power of Christ in me" or even a simple term like "holy spirit", are pieces of mindless babble which require further explanation. And at that, not even the explanations make sense in light of Christian orthodoxy, let alone standing by themselves. In this way, along with many others, I find elements of the ancient belief system known as Gnosticism deeply ingrained in TWI doxis and praxis.
Obviously, much of TWI thought can't be confirmed in Christian "orthodoxy," because the main underlying themes of TWI (no Trinity, dead not alive, etc.) contradict traditional Christianity. Scriptures are explained according to a different paradigm. I'm not sure I would classify Wayspeak as argot so much as just a different understanding of the same phrases.
I'm interested to see what TWI doxis and praxis (teaching and practice, for the rest of us) you consider Gnostic. My reading of Gnostic literature shows a divine Jesus (often to the point of denying his humanity); a belief that the physical world is an illusion -- all is spirit; and a myriad of angelic powers, none of which would be considered as part of TWI theology.
Okay, since the discussion is about "mainstream" whether that is right or wrong is not the issue. Lets' call it "synthetic mainstream."
The point is that, in my opinion, it is argot because it is not a language of accomodation. It is not a language that invites engagement and dialogue. It is rather a language designed to exclude and is "deliberately hermetic."
Also, I would ask you to condider "gnostic" in this discussion as gnostic with a lower case "g," as in placing a premium value on "true" knowlege attained by belonging to a group with ritual and culture designed to enlighten its initiates along a path of wisdom towards divinity.
Obviously, much of TWI thought can't be confirmed in Christian "orthodoxy," because the main underlying themes of TWI (no Trinity, dead not alive, etc.) contradict traditional Christianity. Scriptures are explained according to a different paradigm. I'm not sure I would classify Wayspeak as argot so much as just a different understanding of the same phrases.
I'm interested to see what TWI doxis and praxis (teaching and practice, for the rest of us) you consider Gnostic. My reading of Gnostic literature shows a divine Jesus (often to the point of denying his humanity); a belief that the physical world is an illusion -- all is spirit; and a myriad of angelic powers, none of which would be considered as part of TWI theology.
George
The connections between Gnosticism and TWI are seen more in a closer examination of Gnostic philosophy, and not necessarily in a cursory observation of the theology of both TWI and Gnosticism.
Mainly, the roots in Gnosticism come from TWI's insistence not on faith in Christ, but rather on gaining more knowledge about the Bible, God (their perception of God, anyway), Christ, and history. TWI is all about "research and teaching." Sure, there is the fellowship with one another, but the very existence and execution of the various classes implies an emphasis on attaining intellectual knowledge which is seen as having a freeing effect, as one becomes a member of the "one true household", rather than a relationship with God being the focal point. Also, as in branches of Protestantism, TWI denies the doctrine of the future physical resurrection of the body, believing that the body is merely a "shell" for the soul. This doesn't necessarily mean that Protestants and Wayfers believe that matter is bad or evil as in Gnostic thought, but I have heard language in Protestant thought that implies a certain ambivalence toward the flesh, the material, and the body, as opposed to the spiritual, the immaterial, and the soul.
Also, the 16th century Protestant Reformers, especially John Calvin, emphasized St. Augustine's doctrine of Original Sin so much, that merely being a human was considered sinful in and of itself. They did see Jesus' death as atoning for sin, but only in an antinomian fashion. Justification for the Reformers was merely a forensic declaration of innocence that did not correlate with the ontological state of man, and any attempt to do "works of the Law" mired one in an impossible quest for "works righteousness." Truly, in Protestant thought, and by extension TWI thought, salvation is seen as a legal contract between the believer and God. Like Marcion, an early Gnostic (some would say proto-Gnostic) teacher, they preferred St. Paul to any other biblical author, and wanted to marginalize -- if not eliminate -- Jesus' moralistic teachings and the Epistle of St. James.
Like the Gnostics and some modern-day Protestants, TWI insists that liturgical rites such as the Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Rite to which I belong, or the Latin Rite Mass are abominations, relics and shrines as too carnal and focused too much on the material, works of art as distracting from true spirituality, and the whole sacramental system as just another form of paganism, believing that ritual is unnecessary and is worshiping God "in vain" in the case of the Protestants, or in the case of Gnostics--not through rituals which impart grace (rituals are only initiatory in Gnosticism) but rather on the reception and comprehension of special knowledge, or gnosis. Even personal spirituality in TWI is very "Gnostic." Speaking In Tongues or "SIT", essentially a form of self-hypnosis as I have heard it described by many members here at GSC, is quite similar to the practices of various Gnostic groups who would attempt to reach trance-like states in order to create a feeling of disassociation of the "good, spiritual, immaterial" soul, from the "evil, fleshly, material" body.
~ Phil
P.S. George: What exactly are your theological views? You appear to support TWI doctrine, even after having left. Maybe I'm completely incorrect in that notion, but I'm curious as to what your standpoint is on a lot of things, after conversing with you in my thread entitled "Relationship with God" and this one.
Every group, religious or otherwise, has their own language or terminology that binds them together and separates them to some extent from those outside the group. This is true from the technical language of the medical profession to the sci-fi jargon of Star Trek fans, to the slang expressions in the sports world. Religious cults take it much farther than non-religious groups, though.
Also, as in branches of Protestantism, TWI denies the doctrine of the future physical resurrection of the body, believing that the body is merely a "shell" for the soul.
Not true (at least concerning TWI). A central teaching of TWI is the future resurrection. (Resurrections, actually, with the pre-tribulation meeting in the air with the Lord of the Christians -- raised from the dead, or, if still living, changed -- preceding the resurrections referred to in the Book of Revelation, which pertain to non-Christians.) TWI teaching is that the dead are completely inanimate (non-sentient) from the point of death until resurrection.
P.S. George: What exactly are your theological views? You appear to support TWI doctrine, even after having left. Maybe I'm completely incorrect in that notion, but I'm curious as to what your standpoint is on a lot of things, after conversing with you in my thread entitled "Relationship with God" and this one.
I hold to most of the core teachings of TWI, as I believe that the Bible teaches the unity (non-trinity) of God, the perfect humanity of Jesus, the dead being non-sentient until the return of Jesus, as well as some other doctrines. I was raised Roman Catholic, and was active in that church for many years, but now it just seems paganistic to me. Soory.
Not true (at least concerning TWI). A central teaching of TWI is the future resurrection. (Resurrections, actually, with the pre-tribulation meeting in the air with the Lord of the Christians -- raised from the dead, or, if still living, changed -- preceding the resurrections referred to in the Book of Revelation, which pertain to non-Christians.) TWI teaching is that the dead are completely inanimate (non-sentient) from the point of death until resurrection.
Hm, okay. What is the basis for the belief in a non-sentient pre-resurrection state of the soul?
I hold to most of the core teachings of TWI, as I believe that the Bible teaches the unity (non-trinity) of God, the perfect humanity of Jesus, the dead being non-sentient until the return of Jesus, as well as some other doctrines. I was raised Roman Catholic, and was active in that church for many years, but now it just seems paganistic to me. Soory.
George
No apology needed. But, what do you mean by "perfect" humanity?
After this, I hope we can get back on the main topic. We've derailed this thread enough. :)
Brushstroke, not to further derail this, but TWI teaches that Jesus is only a perfect human being (like Adam and Eve before the fall, then sin or rebellion is genetically transmitted into all other human beings who become spiritually perverted and corruptible).Therefore Jesus can not be God cloned into human flesh or even the original(perfection/holiness/purity) or else God taking human flesh and sin damns him, making him evil and no better than Satan/Lucifer, nor can Jesus be the archangel Michael nor the angel Gabriel(Arius and Appolanarius, nor sinful child of Joseph or even Mary(God creates both egg and sperm, overiding Mary's biological defenses), therefore Jesus may be tempted but can not sin(does not have free will), therefore He is not our Brother, but rather step-brother(we are the ones not truly human, but poor imitators of God's original plan). In other words, Jesus is a circus freak.
Getting back to the original topic: What is so ironic is that a religious group that once upon a time, prided itself on its "outreach" statistics, ends up.......well, where they are.
How can a group who wants to "reach the world with the Word" become so inbred that noone knows what the heck they are talking about?
(It's a rhetorical question, that many of us have been trying to answer for decades.)
Getting back to the original topic: What is so ironic is that a religious group that once upon a time, prided itself on its "outreach" statistics, ends up.......well, where they are.
How can a group who wants to "reach the world with the Word" become so inbred that noone knows what the heck they are talking about?
(It's a rhetorical question, that many of us have been trying to answer for decades.)
No kidding about no one knowing what they're talking about! As an outsider, when I hear Steph or my friend Brian talk about it or when I read things here, I'm thinking in my head "Wait, repeat that. What do you mean by that? That doesn't make sense." There's never explanations to concepts like the Bible interpreting itself, what "the Word" is, or what classifies as "needs" and what classifies as "wants" or even an explanation of what a "needs and wants parallel" is.
Regarding the non-sentient, pre-resurrection state:
TWI taught that death is like being asleep. The time between death and the resurrection is like a mental blackout.
This is based on, if I remember correctly, a verse in Ecclesiastes that says "in death there is no consciousness." It's not a dream like state, it's just a blank. In order to really understand this idea, you first have to understand the TWI concept of "the threefold man". The threefold man simply stated is this.---- [Component #1]When you are born, you have body. (flesh and blood)---- [Component #2] When you take your first breath, you have soul life. Twi teaches that soul life is nothing more than your breath life. Hence, your soul begins with your first breath and ends with your last. (This is the rationalization that was used to justify abortion.) According to TWI theology, every human being currently walking the planet has body and soul. However, TWI called them "empties floating by" because they supposedly lack the third and most crucial component, spirit.
Now, this spirit is your own personal spirit and is given to you as a gift from God when you confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead. (Romans 10:9 & 10) SIT is supposed to be the evidence that confirms the presence of this spirit. This spirit is the component that is thought to be eternal. So, when you die, your soul ceases to exist, your body becomes corrupt, (it decomposes) but your spirit enters this unconscious, non-sentient state, awaiting the return of Christ.
The "perfect humanity" concept is a bit difficult to explain. TWI taught that "the life of the flesh is in the blood". This is from Leviticus. According to TWI, the "blood" component of a conception comes from the male. (TWI wasn't real big on referencing anatomy and physiology texts.) Since all the "blood" donors on Earth were contaminated through the original sin, Jesus had to have that part of his conception supplied by God to insure its purity. Furthermore, since they taught that he was a human and not Divine, it followed suit that he was both perfect and human.
No kidding about no one knowing what they're talking about! As an outsider, when I hear Steph or my friend Brian talk about it or when I read things here, I'm thinking in my head "Wait, repeat that. What do you mean by that? That doesn't make sense." There's never explanations to concepts like the Bible interpreting itself,
That's because your friends are wanting you to take a class to learn it - and most of us here just want to forget that stuff.
what "the Word" is, or what classifies as "needs" and what classifies as "wants" or even an explanation of what a "needs and wants parallel" is.
OH no! Now you did it... (pssssttt... It didn't make sense to us either. - )
"the deliberately hermetic language of a small knowledge clique... a super-specialized geek cult language that has no traction in the real world."
oh that is funny. I can't wait to tell my friends that I was once apart of a super-specialized geek cult
definitely a hermetic language in the case of TWI. It was almost as if they understood this when you think about the emergence of the "old wine skins" teaching in relation to the words or phrases that ended up being dubbed as "old wine skins." Also the fact that there were certain words that were pretty much not to be spoken because they didn't fit TWI's view of things, like the word "create" and many others.
On one hand it did seem to be used as a egotistic Wayspeak, as in some sort of indication that we had the real truth, but on the other hand I don't believe it was used to isolate or keep others out of the loop. Instead it was used as a tool to talk to people about TWI dogma. I don't think it works though. Most people just think you are weird and don't want to explore what "believing to get" something really means.
Oh and it is all "special knowledge." From the outside looking in it is all about "knowing God" whether that is through knowledge of "the Word of God" or through your experience or your "relationship with God" or however your group says you get to "know God" it is all super special.
Remember "all without distinction" and "all without exception?" We just went along even though we had no idea what the difference was. Turned out VP had a "problen" with the words "with" and "without."
I suppose babe and undershepherding could be considered TWI argot. I think TWI invented the latter word. The term babes in Christ does occur in the Bible, but the word babe has other connotations for me!
I use the word "create" with reckless abandon now...
Seriously...
It became an increasingly bigger PIA to have a conversation in twi. If you said "luck" or "good Luck" or anything culturally accepted you were treated like horns were sprouting from you head and fire was shooting out of every cranial orifice.
That said, you got an equally awful reaction if you insisted on avoiding certain words when you were around co-workers and such.
twi person: "I have an opportunity..."
Normal person: "Great! Tell me about it!"
twi person: "Uhh no. You don't understand. This isn't a good thing..."
Normal person, is afraid to ask for more details for fear he or she will get even more confused lingo; gets that glazed look in his or her eyes and walks away, shaking head and thinking, "I had to comment! When will I ever learn?"
Two books, Cultural Literacy by E.D. Hirsch and The Closing of the American Mind by Allan Bloom had a huge impact on me. I'd have to say the first book more than the second, but I'm still learning.
So if you were like me and attended twig for several months before taking PFAL, much of what was "taught" went completely over the head - due to not understanding the lingo. Taking PFAL meant finally knowing what people were saying. Twig would be like setting anyone who wasn't computer literate into a group setting with a bunch of geeks discussing computers. Most people have no idea what we are saying, but it sure sounds interesting. That was my twig experience before PFAL.
There was nothing along the lines of a "seeker" level gathering (unless you count the open meetings that were designed to entice people into signing green cards through interesting activities that, come to find out, were not regular activities). Not only is there no seeker type of entry level teaching and gathering, it appears to be something that's done deliberately either to get people to take the 101 thing to learn the lingo, or create a sense of urgency to do so. TWI and most splinters don't do milk. They go right to the meat.
Having gone through PFAL made me aware that it was not available to be creative, because only God creates and there's nothing new under the sun. For a long time I thought it honored God to avoid using that word, but I've come to believe that it was designed to keep people from creative thinking.
I gotta say that my first few "twigs" were very open and instructive. In fact, they were so helpful that an edict had to be handed down to NOT talk so much before a person took the class.
The real problems started when I joined the WC.
But hey, it was a ten year part of my life that ended twenty years ago. I've been out twice as long as I was in (not counting the time pre-twi.)
I still take a look at my habits and thought patterns. I still find bs. At least now I want to get rid of the bs - instead of embracing it and giving it an even bigger place in my life.
I gotta say that my first few "twigs" were very open and instructive. In fact, they were so helpful that an edict had to be handed down to NOT talk so much before a person took the class.
The real problems started when I joined the WC.
Interesting that you say that. Was the edict handed down before or after you joined the WC?
Interesting that you say that. Was the edict handed down before or after you joined the WC?
It was before... but after I took the class. Let me add that when I say "edict" I say it with a bit of sarcasm. The Branch leader made a very strong suggestion that we not try to teach what (ahem - yuk) "the Teacher" did best.
OH! The problems I mentioned referred to my thought processes.
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Patriot
Here are a few:
"Fully-Instructed Believer" - someone regardless of their walk, who has taken the Advanced Class at sometime.
This is what every new follower is to get to. This requires them to be totally free of any debt, including home mortgages, student loans...everything. If they are not financially qualified, they cannot get to this level.
"Unbelieving Believer" - Never from 'our' own ranks, but a Christian outside of our group.
"Cop Out" - Evil and deceived for leaving our ranks.
Just a few to start.
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Brushstroke
I very much agree, Yanagisawa. As one who was never involved with TWI, I find much terminology in TWI, even terms used in other more mainstream Christian groups, like "the Word of God" to have a strikingly different meaning in TWI language and usage. This is why, often when I speak with my friend who is involved in TWI, about TWI, I have to ask her to explain a certain term because the way she's using it doesn't make any sense.
Honestly, to me, most of what TWI says about how "the Word of God is the Will of God" or "believing equals receiving" or "the Renewed Mind is the key to the Power of Christ in me" or even a simple term like "holy spirit", are pieces of mindless babble which require further explanation. And at that, not even the explanations make sense in light of Christian orthodoxy, let alone standing by themselves. In this way, along with many others, I find elements of the ancient belief system known as Gnosticism deeply ingrained in TWI doxis and praxis.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Obviously, much of TWI thought can't be confirmed in Christian "orthodoxy," because the main underlying themes of TWI (no Trinity, dead not alive, etc.) contradict traditional Christianity. Scriptures are explained according to a different paradigm. I'm not sure I would classify Wayspeak as argot so much as just a different understanding of the same phrases.
I'm interested to see what TWI doxis and praxis (teaching and practice, for the rest of us) you consider Gnostic. My reading of Gnostic literature shows a divine Jesus (often to the point of denying his humanity); a belief that the physical world is an illusion -- all is spirit; and a myriad of angelic powers, none of which would be considered as part of TWI theology.
George
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Yanagisawa
Okay, since the discussion is about "mainstream" whether that is right or wrong is not the issue. Lets' call it "synthetic mainstream."
The point is that, in my opinion, it is argot because it is not a language of accomodation. It is not a language that invites engagement and dialogue. It is rather a language designed to exclude and is "deliberately hermetic."
Also, I would ask you to condider "gnostic" in this discussion as gnostic with a lower case "g," as in placing a premium value on "true" knowlege attained by belonging to a group with ritual and culture designed to enlighten its initiates along a path of wisdom towards divinity.
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newlife
What Gnostics????
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Brushstroke
The connections between Gnosticism and TWI are seen more in a closer examination of Gnostic philosophy, and not necessarily in a cursory observation of the theology of both TWI and Gnosticism.
Mainly, the roots in Gnosticism come from TWI's insistence not on faith in Christ, but rather on gaining more knowledge about the Bible, God (their perception of God, anyway), Christ, and history. TWI is all about "research and teaching." Sure, there is the fellowship with one another, but the very existence and execution of the various classes implies an emphasis on attaining intellectual knowledge which is seen as having a freeing effect, as one becomes a member of the "one true household", rather than a relationship with God being the focal point. Also, as in branches of Protestantism, TWI denies the doctrine of the future physical resurrection of the body, believing that the body is merely a "shell" for the soul. This doesn't necessarily mean that Protestants and Wayfers believe that matter is bad or evil as in Gnostic thought, but I have heard language in Protestant thought that implies a certain ambivalence toward the flesh, the material, and the body, as opposed to the spiritual, the immaterial, and the soul.
Also, the 16th century Protestant Reformers, especially John Calvin, emphasized St. Augustine's doctrine of Original Sin so much, that merely being a human was considered sinful in and of itself. They did see Jesus' death as atoning for sin, but only in an antinomian fashion. Justification for the Reformers was merely a forensic declaration of innocence that did not correlate with the ontological state of man, and any attempt to do "works of the Law" mired one in an impossible quest for "works righteousness." Truly, in Protestant thought, and by extension TWI thought, salvation is seen as a legal contract between the believer and God. Like Marcion, an early Gnostic (some would say proto-Gnostic) teacher, they preferred St. Paul to any other biblical author, and wanted to marginalize -- if not eliminate -- Jesus' moralistic teachings and the Epistle of St. James.
Like the Gnostics and some modern-day Protestants, TWI insists that liturgical rites such as the Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Rite to which I belong, or the Latin Rite Mass are abominations, relics and shrines as too carnal and focused too much on the material, works of art as distracting from true spirituality, and the whole sacramental system as just another form of paganism, believing that ritual is unnecessary and is worshiping God "in vain" in the case of the Protestants, or in the case of Gnostics--not through rituals which impart grace (rituals are only initiatory in Gnosticism) but rather on the reception and comprehension of special knowledge, or gnosis. Even personal spirituality in TWI is very "Gnostic." Speaking In Tongues or "SIT", essentially a form of self-hypnosis as I have heard it described by many members here at GSC, is quite similar to the practices of various Gnostic groups who would attempt to reach trance-like states in order to create a feeling of disassociation of the "good, spiritual, immaterial" soul, from the "evil, fleshly, material" body.
~ Phil
P.S. George: What exactly are your theological views? You appear to support TWI doctrine, even after having left. Maybe I'm completely incorrect in that notion, but I'm curious as to what your standpoint is on a lot of things, after conversing with you in my thread entitled "Relationship with God" and this one.
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Mark Clarke
Every group, religious or otherwise, has their own language or terminology that binds them together and separates them to some extent from those outside the group. This is true from the technical language of the medical profession to the sci-fi jargon of Star Trek fans, to the slang expressions in the sports world. Religious cults take it much farther than non-religious groups, though.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Not true (at least concerning TWI). A central teaching of TWI is the future resurrection. (Resurrections, actually, with the pre-tribulation meeting in the air with the Lord of the Christians -- raised from the dead, or, if still living, changed -- preceding the resurrections referred to in the Book of Revelation, which pertain to non-Christians.) TWI teaching is that the dead are completely inanimate (non-sentient) from the point of death until resurrection.
I hold to most of the core teachings of TWI, as I believe that the Bible teaches the unity (non-trinity) of God, the perfect humanity of Jesus, the dead being non-sentient until the return of Jesus, as well as some other doctrines. I was raised Roman Catholic, and was active in that church for many years, but now it just seems paganistic to me. Soory.
George
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Brushstroke
Hm, okay. What is the basis for the belief in a non-sentient pre-resurrection state of the soul?
No apology needed. But, what do you mean by "perfect" humanity?
After this, I hope we can get back on the main topic. We've derailed this thread enough. :)
~ Phil
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Brushstroke, not to further derail this, but TWI teaches that Jesus is only a perfect human being (like Adam and Eve before the fall, then sin or rebellion is genetically transmitted into all other human beings who become spiritually perverted and corruptible).Therefore Jesus can not be God cloned into human flesh or even the original(perfection/holiness/purity) or else God taking human flesh and sin damns him, making him evil and no better than Satan/Lucifer, nor can Jesus be the archangel Michael nor the angel Gabriel(Arius and Appolanarius, nor sinful child of Joseph or even Mary(God creates both egg and sperm, overiding Mary's biological defenses), therefore Jesus may be tempted but can not sin(does not have free will), therefore He is not our Brother, but rather step-brother(we are the ones not truly human, but poor imitators of God's original plan). In other words, Jesus is a circus freak.
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ex10
Getting back to the original topic: What is so ironic is that a religious group that once upon a time, prided itself on its "outreach" statistics, ends up.......well, where they are.
How can a group who wants to "reach the world with the Word" become so inbred that noone knows what the heck they are talking about?
(It's a rhetorical question, that many of us have been trying to answer for decades.)
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Brushstroke
No kidding about no one knowing what they're talking about! As an outsider, when I hear Steph or my friend Brian talk about it or when I read things here, I'm thinking in my head "Wait, repeat that. What do you mean by that? That doesn't make sense." There's never explanations to concepts like the Bible interpreting itself, what "the Word" is, or what classifies as "needs" and what classifies as "wants" or even an explanation of what a "needs and wants parallel" is.
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waysider
Phil
Regarding the non-sentient, pre-resurrection state:
TWI taught that death is like being asleep. The time between death and the resurrection is like a mental blackout.
This is based on, if I remember correctly, a verse in Ecclesiastes that says "in death there is no consciousness." It's not a dream like state, it's just a blank. In order to really understand this idea, you first have to understand the TWI concept of "the threefold man". The threefold man simply stated is this.---- [Component #1]When you are born, you have body. (flesh and blood)---- [Component #2] When you take your first breath, you have soul life. Twi teaches that soul life is nothing more than your breath life. Hence, your soul begins with your first breath and ends with your last. (This is the rationalization that was used to justify abortion.) According to TWI theology, every human being currently walking the planet has body and soul. However, TWI called them "empties floating by" because they supposedly lack the third and most crucial component, spirit.
Now, this spirit is your own personal spirit and is given to you as a gift from God when you confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead. (Romans 10:9 & 10) SIT is supposed to be the evidence that confirms the presence of this spirit. This spirit is the component that is thought to be eternal. So, when you die, your soul ceases to exist, your body becomes corrupt, (it decomposes) but your spirit enters this unconscious, non-sentient state, awaiting the return of Christ.
The "perfect humanity" concept is a bit difficult to explain. TWI taught that "the life of the flesh is in the blood". This is from Leviticus. According to TWI, the "blood" component of a conception comes from the male. (TWI wasn't real big on referencing anatomy and physiology texts.) Since all the "blood" donors on Earth were contaminated through the original sin, Jesus had to have that part of his conception supplied by God to insure its purity. Furthermore, since they taught that he was a human and not Divine, it followed suit that he was both perfect and human.
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doojable
That's because your friends are wanting you to take a class to learn it - and most of us here just want to forget that stuff.
OH no! Now you did it... (pssssttt... It didn't make sense to us either. - )
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WordWolf
I'm fine with explaining twi doctrine, but can we do it in a Doctrinal thread, or a thread in ATW
specifically about that, or maybe a GS 101 thread,
and let this thread be about esoteric phrases?
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lindyhopper
definitely a hermetic language in the case of TWI. It was almost as if they understood this when you think about the emergence of the "old wine skins" teaching in relation to the words or phrases that ended up being dubbed as "old wine skins." Also the fact that there were certain words that were pretty much not to be spoken because they didn't fit TWI's view of things, like the word "create" and many others.
On one hand it did seem to be used as a egotistic Wayspeak, as in some sort of indication that we had the real truth, but on the other hand I don't believe it was used to isolate or keep others out of the loop. Instead it was used as a tool to talk to people about TWI dogma. I don't think it works though. Most people just think you are weird and don't want to explore what "believing to get" something really means.
Oh and it is all "special knowledge." From the outside looking in it is all about "knowing God" whether that is through knowledge of "the Word of God" or through your experience or your "relationship with God" or however your group says you get to "know God" it is all super special.
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outintexas
Remember "all without distinction" and "all without exception?" We just went along even though we had no idea what the difference was. Turned out VP had a "problen" with the words "with" and "without."
If you weren't there, it's not worth explaining
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waysider
Did you mean to say it wouldn't be "profitable"? ;)
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GeorgeStGeorge
I suppose babe and undershepherding could be considered TWI argot. I think TWI invented the latter word. The term babes in Christ does occur in the Bible, but the word babe has other connotations for me!
George
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doojable
I use the word "create" with reckless abandon now...
Seriously...
It became an increasingly bigger PIA to have a conversation in twi. If you said "luck" or "good Luck" or anything culturally accepted you were treated like horns were sprouting from you head and fire was shooting out of every cranial orifice.
That said, you got an equally awful reaction if you insisted on avoiding certain words when you were around co-workers and such.
twi person: "I have an opportunity..."
Normal person: "Great! Tell me about it!"
twi person: "Uhh no. You don't understand. This isn't a good thing..."
Normal person, is afraid to ask for more details for fear he or she will get even more confused lingo; gets that glazed look in his or her eyes and walks away, shaking head and thinking, "I had to comment! When will I ever learn?"
Two books, Cultural Literacy by E.D. Hirsch and The Closing of the American Mind by Allan Bloom had a huge impact on me. I'd have to say the first book more than the second, but I'm still learning.
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Tzaia
So if you were like me and attended twig for several months before taking PFAL, much of what was "taught" went completely over the head - due to not understanding the lingo. Taking PFAL meant finally knowing what people were saying. Twig would be like setting anyone who wasn't computer literate into a group setting with a bunch of geeks discussing computers. Most people have no idea what we are saying, but it sure sounds interesting. That was my twig experience before PFAL.
There was nothing along the lines of a "seeker" level gathering (unless you count the open meetings that were designed to entice people into signing green cards through interesting activities that, come to find out, were not regular activities). Not only is there no seeker type of entry level teaching and gathering, it appears to be something that's done deliberately either to get people to take the 101 thing to learn the lingo, or create a sense of urgency to do so. TWI and most splinters don't do milk. They go right to the meat.
Having gone through PFAL made me aware that it was not available to be creative, because only God creates and there's nothing new under the sun. For a long time I thought it honored God to avoid using that word, but I've come to believe that it was designed to keep people from creative thinking.
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doojable
I gotta say that my first few "twigs" were very open and instructive. In fact, they were so helpful that an edict had to be handed down to NOT talk so much before a person took the class.
The real problems started when I joined the WC.
But hey, it was a ten year part of my life that ended twenty years ago. I've been out twice as long as I was in (not counting the time pre-twi.)
I still take a look at my habits and thought patterns. I still find bs. At least now I want to get rid of the bs - instead of embracing it and giving it an even bigger place in my life.
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Tzaia
Interesting that you say that. Was the edict handed down before or after you joined the WC?
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doojable
It was before... but after I took the class. Let me add that when I say "edict" I say it with a bit of sarcasm. The Branch leader made a very strong suggestion that we not try to teach what (ahem - yuk) "the Teacher" did best.
OH! The problems I mentioned referred to my thought processes.
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