It isn't surprising those who have difficulty accepting the permanence of salvation are likewise oblivious to the different biblical administrations. Afterall, what can one say about salvation? It is the greatest thing God has ever done to give man everlasting life and for you as a Christian to say, "I am going to live forever!" What an amazing thing, what a great truth! What a blessing it is to know that - and for you to know that from God's Word. Surely none of us deserve everlasting life, and yet that is the gift God says He has given to us and that He has promised to us in His Word.
The first thing one has to have is an administrational point of view to make the scriptures "fit together" and to make the scriptures work properly. It is unfortunate that to so many the bible is just a confusing book, it's full of contradictions and perplexities. God didn't write the bible with the attitude of - Hah - they'll never figure that one out! It says in Timothy that God wants us to come to a knowledge of the truth. Actually it says He wants us to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim. 2:4)
Now if one is going to do that, then it is important that one studies the scriptures, and in order for the scriptures to make sense then we have to get some postulates correct first. You have to get some axioms correct - some fundamental beliefs about the bible we need to have correct in order for the bible to make any sense. One of the things you have to get correct is that the way God (and God is God and He can do things the way He wants to) but the way that God relates to man has been through a series of administrations.
Now this is very important to understand what an administration actually is. An administration (or a dispensation if you want to call it that) is not just a time period in the bible. What an administration is, is an administring of God's rules or regulations or His justice, and because when God starts administrating and stops adminstrating - as there is a point where He starts and a point where He stops, then an adminstration occurs within a period of time. Although technically speaking an administration is NOT a set period of time, an administration is a way of God's serving, a way of God's ruling if you will, an administration is a way of God's doing this. But because it occurs within a period of time, then for us to look at it and examine it closely it is much easier for us to look at it as a starting point and a stopping point, so we have multiple different periods of time in the bible.
This becomes very, very important when we are talking about the subject of salvation and that we understand administrations in this way. When we talk about salvation within these administrations, then we see there are differences. Now in any one of these biblical administrations - anyone could be saved. But in the old Testament and the gospels, a person was only saved by being faithful to God throughout their life. However in the grace administration (which was a secret and hidden from the other administrations) God did something entirely brand new. In the grace administration, God made salvation a one time, permanent experience. He also let us know that because in the grace administration God calls our salvation "birth", and God doesn't call salvation "birth" in the old Testament or in any other administration.
Right now as we stand here as Christians our salvation is permanent. It is based on a one time experience of "birth" from God (one can't get reborn twice from God or any more times from God) and it is born into us just like our natural birth - only this time it is of incorruptible seed rather than corruptible. In fact (which is the truth) it is more permanent than your natural birth because your natural birth is corruptible seed and at some point in time that seed is going to die!! This incorruptible seed from God however will NEVER DIE, and that is why it is permanent and why our salvation in this administration of grace is likewise permanent.
I didn't see Jesus mentioned here? The way God has actually spoken to us--once and for all.
Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets at different times and in different ways. In these last days, He has spoken to us by [His] Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things and through whom He made the universe. He is the radiance of His glory, the exact expression of His nature, and He sustains all things by His powerful word.
How can you speak of salvation and not speak of Jesus? But, I also wonder how you can speak of true salvation and not speak of enduring? It cheapens everything to speak of a one time confession and voila--permanent salvation.
Issues of saving faith and an empty hand to recieve it run deep.
You said in the gospels they were saved by being faithful to God throughout their lifetime. I hate to break it to you, but we too must be faithful through out our lifetime. That comes with true salvation.
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of His glory--blameless with great joy.
He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
I don't believe as others do here--that God will snatch your salvation from you. . . . it is a gift freely given paid for at great cost. It runs contrary to God's nature of faithfulness. It is actually an insult to who God is.The verses used to support this notion are few and run contrary to many others--they must really be examined. BUT, true Christians endure--faith is built by Christ--through a lifetime--often of trials and suffering. It is a life long relationship--a marriage--a submission of our own will to His.
I am sick to bits of TWI's "Administrations" and cheap grace.
What use is it my brethren if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
If someone SAYS they have faith, but what does their life say??? A one time confession is NOT evidence of salvation.
Salvation is not a one time experience--it is a lifelong experience. Saving faith--get down on your knees and ask for saving faith.
I don't believe as others do here--that God will snatch your salvation from you. . . . it is a gift freely given paid for at great cost. It runs contrary to God's nature of faithfulness. It is actually an insult to who God is.The verses used to support this notion are few and run contrary to many others--they must really be examined. BUT, true Christians endure--faith is built by Christ--through a lifetime--often of trials and suffering. It is a life long relationship--a marriage--a submission of our own will to His.
Just to clarify, I don't believe that God "snatches away" salvation. Like you I believe that salvation is a process involving a lifetime of faith, which it is possible for some to turn away from.
I am sick to bits of TWI's "Administrations" and cheap grace.
On the side topic of salvation, just a few general thoughts and probably nothing new...I think the nature of it being "birth", our being born again, new life and other similar terms point to what "it" is as you stated What the Hey.
To my understanding there's clearly a point of repentance, turning away from one kind of life to another that's key to that birth. Choosing Christ as the way to come to God (which God apparently wants us to do) requires recognition of what's been added that we lack. We have to repent, change our thinking about who we are what we do and begin to go down a new way of life for the "new birth" to occur.
I don't completely subscribe to the idea that God "calls" some and not others to a new birth (that seems to contradict the idea of a savior for and to all mankind) - a physical birth doesn't involve the choice of the child being born - they're the result of a choice and actions of the parents.
So I can see that the process God's put in place is there for all and is possible for all when they, in the process God's put in place in Christ, make the decision to repent and believe in what Jesus Christ has done, individually. Specifically when this happens can be the product of many things too complex to understand, for me anyway, but that it can happen appears to be a done deal. What our lives come to when we don't is also out of our scope to completely understand too, I thinik. Judgment ultimately is in God's providence not ours.
After the birth occurs the "new life" continues from that point. Who and what we become is a product of the qualities of the new nature we have and also what we do. We may do the best we can and fall far short - it's in our human nature to do so - and we may do exceptionally well in God's eyes at other times throughout life as it continues.
I think it's highly possible, probable, based on the bible's teachings, that our whole lives aren't weighed in and valued by God in a one-two-three, what did we do, what didn't we do today - kind of formula. The nature of life is far too complex, deep and diverse for that. God may know the numbers of hairs on my head (a task that gets easier as time goes on) but that kind of minutae is a "gimme" for God, as He presents Himself. There will likely be deeper issues of the heart that pertain to us in profoundly deeper ways than we can juggle in our minds now.
That doesn't mean that our lives are blanketed by a kind of "all-bets-are-off" kind of grace-ticket. As Jesus said:
"If thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift" - Matthew 5:23-24.
The record of the "prodigal son" is illuminating - the son leaves, returns and is accepted by his faither although others might not have done so as readily. If he hadn't returned the son would still have been a son to the father, loved and always ready to be accepted but it was his returning back that put his life back in order. Viewed from a new birth perspective and a growth perspective is has implications I think.
Our lives require repentance, recognition of "sin", belief in Christ and a humble meek attitude towards who we are, what we do and how we live with others as we go from birth to life lived.
We're always that "child" therefore, born, and growing. Paul's doctrine in the N. T. seems to deal with that aspect of it a great deal - "growing up" in Christ, etc.
This topic has meandered off track, somewhat, though it remains very interesting. Is it worth, I wonder, asking the mods if the later part of the discussion about salvation can be split off?
Certainly if the people are the Bride of Christ (various epistles) and the Bride is the city (Revelation) and the city of the New Jerusalem is the people (Juedes), we would not be looking at a Salvation which can dissipate. That would give us a city that was built of uncertain materials. Or is the city ONLY the faithful ones? Not just those who got born again and then fell away, distracted by earthly pleasures?
I don't think it's so easy to get "born again" as TWI (and many churches) would have us think. The emphasis on "confess with thy mouth" was acknowledged more than "believe in thine heart" which is a deeply profound action which may take years to achieve (or then again, it may not; for some it will be a quick decision). I'm thinking of the OT servant/slave who had 7 years to decide whether to serve his master on a permanent basis, before making the commitment and having his master's seal fitted to his ear lobe.
The trouble with figures of speech is always taking the figure too far, farther than it was intended to be taken.
Staying faithful brings in other doctrine(?) like "crowns" of reward, which is beyond the scope of "Bride or Body?"
A city would comprise a number of people at various stages of development. Some would be elderly, mature folk; some would be born only last week. Some might be (spiritual) kids in the "terrible two" age range. They are all citizens. Other citizens would be those who have journeyed away for a while (maybe those who have "lapsed" or "backslidden" or otherwise are doing different things?).
Unbelieving spouses and children are also "sanctified" (1 Cor 7:14) - are they also part of this Bride/city? Or just the believing spouse/parent?
This topic has meandered off track, somewhat, though it remains very interesting. Is it worth, I wonder, asking the mods if the later part of the discussion about salvation can be split off?
Certainly if the people are the Bride of Christ (various epistles) and the Bride is the city (Revelation) and the city of the New Jerusalem is the people (Juedes), we would not be looking at a Salvation which can dissipate. That would give us a city that was built of uncertain materials. Or is the city ONLY the faithful ones? Not just those who got born again and then fell away, distracted by earthly pleasures?
I don't think it's so easy to get "born again" as TWI (and many churches) would have us think. The emphasis on "confess with thy mouth" was acknowledged more than "believe in thine heart" which is a deeply profound action which may take years to achieve (or then again, it may not; for some it will be a quick decision). I'm thinking of the OT servant/slave who had 7 years to decide whether to serve his master on a permanent basis, before making the commitment and having his master's seal fitted to his ear lobe.
The trouble with figures of speech is always taking the figure too far, farther than it was intended to be taken.
Staying faithful brings in other doctrine(?) like "crowns" of reward, which is beyond the scope of "Bride or Body?"
A city would comprise a number of people at various stages of development. Some would be elderly, mature folk; some would be born only last week. Some might be (spiritual) kids in the "terrible two" age range. They are all citizens. Other citizens would be those who have journeyed away for a while (maybe those who have "lapsed" or "backslidden" or otherwise are doing different things?).
Unbelieving spouses and children are also "sanctified" (1 Cor 7:14) - are they also part of this Bride/city? Or just the believing spouse/parent?
It seems like the visions in Revelation are the future church, and so would constitute those that "made it" - i.e., stayed faithful.
You're right about TWI putting so much emphasis on "confess" rather than "believe" in Rom. 10:9. Lots of so-called Christians think it's enough to say the words and go through the motions, but Jesus said that those people will be told that he never knew them (Matt. 7:23). In addition, what does it mean to confess Jesus as Lord? You'd have to understand what he was Lord of. He said that the key to salvation was to believe his words. Can someone be his disciple, and confess him as Lord, when they don't even know what his message was, or what he was all about? It has to begin with an understanding and acceptance of his Gospel message, which has gotten muddied and nearly lost in most churches.
The OT slave you referred to served for seven years and then if he loved his master and wanted to serve for life he made that commitment. But it may not have taken the whole seven years to make that decision. He may have decided early on that his master was worth serving. Some people accept the Gospel immediately upon hearing it, and others take a while, but the important thing is that they accept it.
As for the various stages of development, I think you're right that there will be differences among the people in terms of their responsibility. But it seems like it will be based on their faithfulness with what they had, according to the parable in Luke 19:12ff. But at the same time, it appears that the length of time they were laboring won't be as much of a factor, according to Matthew 19:27 - 20:16.
I don't know exactly what it means for an unbelieving spouse to be "sanctified." There are a lot of questions that come up regarding who will be in and who won't. Fortunately, God is a righteous judge, and we can take comfort in that, even if we don't understand it all.
I don't think it's so easy to get "born again" as TWI (and many churches) would have us think. The emphasis on "confess with thy mouth" was acknowledged more than "believe in thine heart" which is a deeply profound action which may take years to achieve (or then again, it may not; for some it will be a quick decision). I'm thinking of the OT servant/slave who had 7 years to decide whether to serve his master on a permanent basis, before making the commitment and having his master's seal fitted to his ear lobe.
If I could explore this "confess and believe" somewhat, I think it might fit in here and apply to several threads of thought. TWI twisted these concepts (confessing and believing) into some doctrine on being positive; thereby, losing the power of the Word of faith, that is to say, losing the presence and power of the Lord Jesus. It reminds me of Jesus saying that the people of Israel (BTW, I don't have a bible handy either; please don't pick me up on not using biblical chapter and verse references. Jesus figured "It is written" sufficient often enough. Feel free to look it up.) heard the Word every Sabbath day, but not believing it, condemned the chosen one. TWI talked/talks about the Word, but not believing it, lost the Lord in large measure practically. On the contrary, the Word of faith has an immediacy about it. When Jesus first taught, he said, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears." So, they kicked him out of his home town. Hey, no one fell asleep at his words.
Likewise, the Word of faith today. It doesn't say that doing all these things, we will, therefore, live. It says that the Word is as close as your mouth and the heart inside your chest, that if thou shalt confess the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead - you know the rest. Confession is made unto salvation; man believes unto righteousness. But wait a minute, what confession is made unto salvation? That Jesus is Lord. For many in TWI, the only time that they confessed the Lordship of Jesus on their tongues was when they got saved; afterward, it became a tag line on all their/our prayers to the Father - somewhere in between a meaningless repetition and a magic incantation many times.
That confession was supposed to mean that we had changed Lords, that the Lord Jesus Christ was now the Lord in every situation. What about THIS situation? Deliverance WHEN you confess Jesus's Lordship in the situation. The 1st century believers were always confessing the Lordship of Jesus as they spoke in his name. They didn't walk around with some mental equivalent of a paper power of attorney agreement believing they represented the absent Christ; they SPOKE in his name. They didn't say, "Hey, I speak in tongues; I KNOW I'm saved." They said, "He [Jesus] has shed forth this which you now see and hear."
They didn't just speak the Word; they preached the Word of faith - Jesus is Lord, God raised him up, he is not dead, he is alive and Lord - CONFESS HIM now and receive wholeness wherever you need it. The religious leaders didn't tell the apostles to stop speaking the Word - THEY were speaking the Word; they told them to stop speaking in the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
And this has what to do with Bride or Body? Only this: some have decried that people speaking in favor of the Body being only for our day and time don't mention Jesus - it is all about us and the fellow members in the Body, unlike the Bride analogy that is so much about Jesus Christ. Sadly, I have to agree that is, for the most part, a true report.
But, as Twinky has so admirably, and successfully, kept this thread on topic, let me quickly, but not without compassion, dispense with any possible sidetrack about the fault of people in this regard, and return to a consideration of the truth of the matter only. Let God be the judge, but that is the context in which they/we were taught.
But that is not the record. Take another look at the Body. Ephesians 4, but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things which is the head, Christ, from whom all the Body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according the the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the Body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Wow, where does the edifying come from? The effectual working in the measure of every part [you and me], where does that come from? The compacting supplied by every joint in the Body and the joining together of every part fitly, WHERE does that come from? CHRIST!!!
Yes, Christ got lost. But this is not the fault of the Body of Christ. The Body IS an exquisite direct revelation of this () parenthesis of the mystery in action. Jesus Christ is the all in all in it.
For what it is worth, I figure the Bride is usually spoken of as an "as" in that which is addressed directly to the Body. And accurately so. Actually, everything ever expressed in the Word may be taken as if it were addressed directly by God to us - that leaves no loss of consideration of the multifarious blessings of God - except, and only insofar as it may directly contradict what is expressly addressed to us by God. If that leaves anyone feeling left out in any regard, it shouldn't. Indeed, we are left out in no regard.
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I didn't see Jesus mentioned here? The way God has actually spoken to us--once and for all.
Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets at different times and in different ways. In these last days, He has spoken to us by [His] Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things and through whom He made the universe. He is the radiance of His glory, the exact expression of His nature, and He sustains all things by His powerful word.
How can you speak of salvation and not speak of Jesus? But, I also wonder how you can speak of true salvation and not speak of enduring? It cheapens everything to speak of a one time confession and voila--permanent salvation.
Issues of saving faith and an empty hand to recieve it run deep.
You said in the gospels they were saved by being faithful to God throughout their lifetime. I hate to break it to you, but we too must be faithful through out our lifetime. That comes with true salvation.
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of His glory--blameless with great joy.
He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
I don't believe as others do here--that God will snatch your salvation from you. . . . it is a gift freely given paid for at great cost. It runs contrary to God's nature of faithfulness. It is actually an insult to who God is.The verses used to support this notion are few and run contrary to many others--they must really be examined. BUT, true Christians endure--faith is built by Christ--through a lifetime--often of trials and suffering. It is a life long relationship--a marriage--a submission of our own will to His.
I am sick to bits of TWI's "Administrations" and cheap grace.
What use is it my brethren if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
If someone SAYS they have faith, but what does their life say??? A one time confession is NOT evidence of salvation.
Salvation is not a one time experience--it is a lifelong experience. Saving faith--get down on your knees and ask for saving faith.
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Mark Clarke
Just to clarify, I don't believe that God "snatches away" salvation. Like you I believe that salvation is a process involving a lifetime of faith, which it is possible for some to turn away from.
Me too!
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socks
On the side topic of salvation, just a few general thoughts and probably nothing new...I think the nature of it being "birth", our being born again, new life and other similar terms point to what "it" is as you stated What the Hey.
To my understanding there's clearly a point of repentance, turning away from one kind of life to another that's key to that birth. Choosing Christ as the way to come to God (which God apparently wants us to do) requires recognition of what's been added that we lack. We have to repent, change our thinking about who we are what we do and begin to go down a new way of life for the "new birth" to occur.
I don't completely subscribe to the idea that God "calls" some and not others to a new birth (that seems to contradict the idea of a savior for and to all mankind) - a physical birth doesn't involve the choice of the child being born - they're the result of a choice and actions of the parents.
So I can see that the process God's put in place is there for all and is possible for all when they, in the process God's put in place in Christ, make the decision to repent and believe in what Jesus Christ has done, individually. Specifically when this happens can be the product of many things too complex to understand, for me anyway, but that it can happen appears to be a done deal. What our lives come to when we don't is also out of our scope to completely understand too, I thinik. Judgment ultimately is in God's providence not ours.
After the birth occurs the "new life" continues from that point. Who and what we become is a product of the qualities of the new nature we have and also what we do. We may do the best we can and fall far short - it's in our human nature to do so - and we may do exceptionally well in God's eyes at other times throughout life as it continues.
I think it's highly possible, probable, based on the bible's teachings, that our whole lives aren't weighed in and valued by God in a one-two-three, what did we do, what didn't we do today - kind of formula. The nature of life is far too complex, deep and diverse for that. God may know the numbers of hairs on my head (a task that gets easier as time goes on) but that kind of minutae is a "gimme" for God, as He presents Himself. There will likely be deeper issues of the heart that pertain to us in profoundly deeper ways than we can juggle in our minds now.
That doesn't mean that our lives are blanketed by a kind of "all-bets-are-off" kind of grace-ticket. As Jesus said:
"If thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift" - Matthew 5:23-24.
The record of the "prodigal son" is illuminating - the son leaves, returns and is accepted by his faither although others might not have done so as readily. If he hadn't returned the son would still have been a son to the father, loved and always ready to be accepted but it was his returning back that put his life back in order. Viewed from a new birth perspective and a growth perspective is has implications I think.
Our lives require repentance, recognition of "sin", belief in Christ and a humble meek attitude towards who we are, what we do and how we live with others as we go from birth to life lived.
We're always that "child" therefore, born, and growing. Paul's doctrine in the N. T. seems to deal with that aspect of it a great deal - "growing up" in Christ, etc.
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Twinky
This topic has meandered off track, somewhat, though it remains very interesting. Is it worth, I wonder, asking the mods if the later part of the discussion about salvation can be split off?
Certainly if the people are the Bride of Christ (various epistles) and the Bride is the city (Revelation) and the city of the New Jerusalem is the people (Juedes), we would not be looking at a Salvation which can dissipate. That would give us a city that was built of uncertain materials. Or is the city ONLY the faithful ones? Not just those who got born again and then fell away, distracted by earthly pleasures?
I don't think it's so easy to get "born again" as TWI (and many churches) would have us think. The emphasis on "confess with thy mouth" was acknowledged more than "believe in thine heart" which is a deeply profound action which may take years to achieve (or then again, it may not; for some it will be a quick decision). I'm thinking of the OT servant/slave who had 7 years to decide whether to serve his master on a permanent basis, before making the commitment and having his master's seal fitted to his ear lobe.
The trouble with figures of speech is always taking the figure too far, farther than it was intended to be taken.
Staying faithful brings in other doctrine(?) like "crowns" of reward, which is beyond the scope of "Bride or Body?"
A city would comprise a number of people at various stages of development. Some would be elderly, mature folk; some would be born only last week. Some might be (spiritual) kids in the "terrible two" age range. They are all citizens. Other citizens would be those who have journeyed away for a while (maybe those who have "lapsed" or "backslidden" or otherwise are doing different things?).
Unbelieving spouses and children are also "sanctified" (1 Cor 7:14) - are they also part of this Bride/city? Or just the believing spouse/parent?
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cman
What has one thinking they are saved?
What has one thinking they are not saved?
Why is it that salvation is thought of?
Why would God save anyone?
Why wouldn't God save everyone?
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Mark Clarke
It seems like the visions in Revelation are the future church, and so would constitute those that "made it" - i.e., stayed faithful.
You're right about TWI putting so much emphasis on "confess" rather than "believe" in Rom. 10:9. Lots of so-called Christians think it's enough to say the words and go through the motions, but Jesus said that those people will be told that he never knew them (Matt. 7:23). In addition, what does it mean to confess Jesus as Lord? You'd have to understand what he was Lord of. He said that the key to salvation was to believe his words. Can someone be his disciple, and confess him as Lord, when they don't even know what his message was, or what he was all about? It has to begin with an understanding and acceptance of his Gospel message, which has gotten muddied and nearly lost in most churches.
The OT slave you referred to served for seven years and then if he loved his master and wanted to serve for life he made that commitment. But it may not have taken the whole seven years to make that decision. He may have decided early on that his master was worth serving. Some people accept the Gospel immediately upon hearing it, and others take a while, but the important thing is that they accept it.
As for the various stages of development, I think you're right that there will be differences among the people in terms of their responsibility. But it seems like it will be based on their faithfulness with what they had, according to the parable in Luke 19:12ff. But at the same time, it appears that the length of time they were laboring won't be as much of a factor, according to Matthew 19:27 - 20:16.
I don't know exactly what it means for an unbelieving spouse to be "sanctified." There are a lot of questions that come up regarding who will be in and who won't. Fortunately, God is a righteous judge, and we can take comfort in that, even if we don't understand it all.
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cman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_of_Christ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_of_Christ
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Tom
If I could explore this "confess and believe" somewhat, I think it might fit in here and apply to several threads of thought. TWI twisted these concepts (confessing and believing) into some doctrine on being positive; thereby, losing the power of the Word of faith, that is to say, losing the presence and power of the Lord Jesus. It reminds me of Jesus saying that the people of Israel (BTW, I don't have a bible handy either; please don't pick me up on not using biblical chapter and verse references. Jesus figured "It is written" sufficient often enough. Feel free to look it up.) heard the Word every Sabbath day, but not believing it, condemned the chosen one. TWI talked/talks about the Word, but not believing it, lost the Lord in large measure practically. On the contrary, the Word of faith has an immediacy about it. When Jesus first taught, he said, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears." So, they kicked him out of his home town. Hey, no one fell asleep at his words.
Likewise, the Word of faith today. It doesn't say that doing all these things, we will, therefore, live. It says that the Word is as close as your mouth and the heart inside your chest, that if thou shalt confess the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead - you know the rest. Confession is made unto salvation; man believes unto righteousness. But wait a minute, what confession is made unto salvation? That Jesus is Lord. For many in TWI, the only time that they confessed the Lordship of Jesus on their tongues was when they got saved; afterward, it became a tag line on all their/our prayers to the Father - somewhere in between a meaningless repetition and a magic incantation many times.
That confession was supposed to mean that we had changed Lords, that the Lord Jesus Christ was now the Lord in every situation. What about THIS situation? Deliverance WHEN you confess Jesus's Lordship in the situation. The 1st century believers were always confessing the Lordship of Jesus as they spoke in his name. They didn't walk around with some mental equivalent of a paper power of attorney agreement believing they represented the absent Christ; they SPOKE in his name. They didn't say, "Hey, I speak in tongues; I KNOW I'm saved." They said, "He [Jesus] has shed forth this which you now see and hear."
They didn't just speak the Word; they preached the Word of faith - Jesus is Lord, God raised him up, he is not dead, he is alive and Lord - CONFESS HIM now and receive wholeness wherever you need it. The religious leaders didn't tell the apostles to stop speaking the Word - THEY were speaking the Word; they told them to stop speaking in the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
And this has what to do with Bride or Body? Only this: some have decried that people speaking in favor of the Body being only for our day and time don't mention Jesus - it is all about us and the fellow members in the Body, unlike the Bride analogy that is so much about Jesus Christ. Sadly, I have to agree that is, for the most part, a true report.
But, as Twinky has so admirably, and successfully, kept this thread on topic, let me quickly, but not without compassion, dispense with any possible sidetrack about the fault of people in this regard, and return to a consideration of the truth of the matter only. Let God be the judge, but that is the context in which they/we were taught.
But that is not the record. Take another look at the Body. Ephesians 4, but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things which is the head, Christ, from whom all the Body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according the the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the Body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Wow, where does the edifying come from? The effectual working in the measure of every part [you and me], where does that come from? The compacting supplied by every joint in the Body and the joining together of every part fitly, WHERE does that come from? CHRIST!!!
Yes, Christ got lost. But this is not the fault of the Body of Christ. The Body IS an exquisite direct revelation of this () parenthesis of the mystery in action. Jesus Christ is the all in all in it.
For what it is worth, I figure the Bride is usually spoken of as an "as" in that which is addressed directly to the Body. And accurately so. Actually, everything ever expressed in the Word may be taken as if it were addressed directly by God to us - that leaves no loss of consideration of the multifarious blessings of God - except, and only insofar as it may directly contradict what is expressly addressed to us by God. If that leaves anyone feeling left out in any regard, it shouldn't. Indeed, we are left out in no regard.
Best regards,
Tom
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