THIS IS HOW I SEE THE APOSTLE PAUL COMPARED TO THIS LIST.
AS FAR AS TRANSPARENCY GOES:
He was very forthright in his handling of the scandal in Corinth, heck, we're still reading about it and considering it today. If TWI standards applied to Paul he would have hid behind decades of lies set up according to the wishes of stupid and mean men.
He didn't seem to have a governmental agenda to speak of, but his dealings in front of the very top governmental powers were once again so open and transparent that we still read about them today. Once again TWI does not line up with Paul's standard!!!
AS FAR AS BEING ACCOUNTABLE GOES:
How wasn't Paul accountable? He was accountable for his bad actions before his conversion. He remained accountable for everything after, often spelling out to church Elders their accountabilities to God and men. He was SO ACCOUNTABLE that he openly used his very personal life as an example of accountability so that we can still learn from it today. He remained accountable for his own actions and never let go of the desire to help the churches overcome their own challenges.
AS FAR AS ADVOCATING FREEDOM GOES:
Once again in Corinth he acknowledged that their were differences of opinion in the church and a possible purpose for them. But then did his best to help them grow up and stop being so divisive and contrary. TWI and unfortunatley my splinter group is a bad, bad example of running EXACTLY OPPOSITE OF THE BIBLICAL STANDARD and the opposite of the intent of this point. They crushed my diisent to their rabid group think, bad doctrines, false prophecies all while keeping up the official opinion of what a bad man I was.
AS FAR AS MEMBER PROTECTION GOES:
Paul did not desire gifts. He taught that his desire was for the ones that gave were to be blessed. I think that history makes it obvious that for Paul this was honest, and not just another smooth saying by a con-artist that was looking to bleed people dry. DUUUHHH!
In my splinter group they even bought a camp that they could not afford. Before they were forced to give it up the leader warned us by saying, "If I don't get to keep my camp, you won't like life very much!" Psycho bastard!!! And he said this to a group of people who had completely out run their own means of support and were PAYING FOR THE PRIVILEDGE OF BEING PART OF THIS SICKO'S FOLLOWING.
I think that simply put, the kind of sexual abuse that happened in TWI is so freakin obviously the king of things that the prophets openly brought to light and reproved that I cannot find it in my heart to even remotely respect any other viewpoint. Period.
AS FAR AS RESPECT FOR NON-MEMBERS GOES:
duuuhhh!
How many people does Paul put down besides the truly criminal? duuuhhh!
I prefer respect for non-members to the kind of high minded, condescending, puffed up, deluded mindset that TWI and my former splinter group bred.
duuuhhh!
P.S. Well said Wordwolf!
A few have stated here that the guidelines for not being a cult weren't meant to be applied to a group 2000 years ago. But it seems to me that they can be applied, and the first century Christians, as Jeff pointed out, would "pass the test".
Under "advocating freedom" I would also add that Mike had a particular problem with allowing "open questioning of the leader's beliefs & practices," and "creating a mechanism for modifying beliefs & practices." But when there were questions about certain points which weren't spelled out by Jesus, they met and discussed it, such as when they began to realize that Gentiles could be included, and the question of circumcision, dealt with in the council of Acts 15. For that matter, there wasn't just ONE leader who was unquestionable. There were the twelve, there was Paul who focused on reaching the Gentiles, there was James who was an administrative leader in Jerusalem but not a top "head" that could not be challenged. These guidelines fit the early church as well as anything today.
Personally I would consider suspect any group where one or a few persons have absolute authority and where there is some sort of inner circle. When Jesus Christ ascended the Bible says he sent the Holy Spirit (gasp! Capital "H", capital "S"!) and that He would lead us into all truth. Jesus clearly taught that the Church is to be guided by those who are submitted to authority outside of themselves. True leaders are those who are emptied of themselves and realize that they have nothing that was not given to them by something higher, i.e. God. There is opposed to being led by someone who has a "special revelation" from God. That is called Gnosticism and that was very much a part of twi.
The model of leadership exhibited by twi was improper, unhealthy, and devilish. I respectfully submit that at our basic core we as people are selfish. Even our "good intentions" are marred with our own selfishness and desire to control our environments for our own benefit. A leader therefore must be submitted and willing to be wrong and corrected by others. A leader must be intent on guiding others but draw up short when it comes to dictating how others should live out truth in their own lives.
I've always heard about dear John letters, I've never written one before.
I just love your list.
Personally I think that it's sad that some feel that such good suggestions are too restricting on what they feel is a movement of God. Especially when the scriptural examples line up so nicely with your list and sentiments from what I can see.
I don't know how you feel about the scriptures and I don't see any real good reason for me to ask, but I like the way that your list lines up with them no matter how you feel about the scriptures.
Another way to view these ideas, and others that could surely be added to the list-
Ask the question "is there anything wrong with them". Does anyone suffer or lose or come up with less because of these kinds of actions?
That list again -
Be Transparent
Be Accountable
Advocate Freedom
Provide Member Protections
Value Respect for Non-Members
Provide Informed Consent
I might add another - "Be honest". That's probably too simple to include in a list of tips on running a tip-top organization but honestly - doesn't it seem like one of the hardest things for people to be and do, period? Just be honest. Be as open and upfront when we're wrong as we are when we're right.
John's suggestions will reject an actual Divine connection along with the garbage.
His suggestions deny the possibility of God intervening in the affairs of men.
Now that's not right, even for a second. Assuming no alterior motives here, that's just not right.
Jesus and the gospel records in their day and time - the Roman government cared little about Jesus and don't get involved in the narrative until forced to. So, look at society today in a place like the U.S.A. - we play a much different game in American Christianity than Jesus did I think.
When asked about paying taxes to Caesar Jesus responds, render to him what's His. Render to God's what's His. He also said once that you can't serve greed and God, or serve two masters.
Jesus is recorded as taking care of those who followed Him - yet when he's said to have been approached by a Roman Centurion seeking help for someone, Jesus responds as graciously as for one who is with Him. The soldier leaves, never to be heard from again.
My p'rnt - to live in this world responsibly should be served by our beliefs. We can function responsibly in our society as easily as Jesus did, if we remember - we aren't Jesus and we're not doing the same thing that Jesus did. We're not. It's simple.
If our beliefs are good, good should be the outcome. God sends rain and everyone gets wet, His sun wakes everyone up. We tend to want to divide and cripple those who disagree or don't appear to be in our lock step version of The Truth As We See It Today. God doesn't work that way. Certain things, including Savior Jesus Christ are for all. We deny, God gives. We should do more as God does. There is Absolute Truth and it's a Truth of God, not us. So we can rest, assured that whatever Truth is in us and comes out of us, it's not of our making.
(If and when anything "legitimate" comes around it's so often so quiet as to barely be heard of, because it's not funded by millions in donations or staged and televised. Much like the little ol' blind guy that Jesus healed and that wandered off still rubbing his eyes and probably thinking "clouds! whoa! rocks!" he was of little interest to anyone once they were done with him and that record stands as a grand proverb to the ability of human nature to take even the best of things and rub them in the dirt. But - he could still see. And Someone did still care. )
In my splinter group, the leader openly sneered at the concept of being honest. It was sometimes when issues that I was concerned about had been brought up for consideration. His pet toadies and chief thugs unfortunately picked up on the same sentiment.
To me, honesty as the sane world knows it, is a necessity for accountability and transparency. I think that it's great that you point it out, but the way I see it, with groups such as TWI and my splinter group, they've gotten SOOO DISHONEST that any presentations by them that say that they are honest are to be disqualified for serious consideration because of the lying nature of the source. IMO their proffesions of honesty are just another self-serving spin.
Absolutely, jeffsjo - it's one of the characteristics most notable about Jesus in the gospels. He was honest about who He was and what He was doing. If someone didn't believe, understand or care was another matter.
That's "transparency" - honesty doesn't cloud transparency, it fulfills it. Honesty doesn't restrict accountablity, it defines it. To be honest one doesn't require another to do something they would never do or that is wrong. Nor does it undervalue or disrespect anyone or anything - it gives the correct authentic amounts of both. Ultimately nearly everything else will come and go but in the end - what? If there's truth, can it be any less than the honest truth?
No "legitmate" work of God will be impeded by honesty. The only "illlegitimate" work that would be undermined by honesty is one that has something to hide. :)
I'm really "moved" by this recent honesty discussion -- I'm thinking about christianity and my regular old "five-senses" ;) job.... and just about everything else in life.
thanks
ALSO i'm simply astounded by people's ability to be dishonest and convince themselves that they are honest
not to say that i don't do it either, but some people are so over the top
I'm just looking for a baseline here, eXXe. What's the most basic, universal and helpful ingredient that would leaven the whole biscuit?
Another word for honesty in my vocab is "authentic". Real. The "real deal". When something's real, it speaks for itself. It may not be understood but it simply is what it is, no more no less.
I could start a whizbang gang of do-gooders and have a governing board to make sure we stay on course. One filled with lying back stabbing SOB's.
The basic integrity of the system isn't solely in the system. Integrity has to be in the components that form the system. What you need is just some people who are committed to being honest and who will help each other stay honest. Everyone needs some help now and then. Help is good. But there has to be a respect for it. In theory Christianity has a very sound foundation - Christ. Why go to the trouble to build around it, why not use it?
There's Christian ministries and churches today who act like it's an insult if someone dares question what they do - "we're doing the Lord's work! We answer to a higher authority! You have no right to make demands of us, that's making demands of God Himself! We'll answer questions when we're good and ready and if the Lord says so!"
B-llshi-. God searches the hearts of all and knows the beginning and the end of our days. We barely know which foot gets what shoe on any given morning and think it's Payday if we get a prayer answered.
There were some events in my splinter group that seem to relate to the honesty issue. It may seem odd to some of you, but all I can say is that when a small group of people cut themselves off from everyone and everything else, the subtle (or not so subtle in this case) undercurrents can get weird and twisted.
The within the group discussion was concerning lighting a room. A roomate of my wife and I pointed out that I kept the house too bright, and she explained that softer light and darker areas within the room was a more comfortable lighting scheme for her. I went with her inpute, but also started joking around that it seemed to me that I might prefer lighting a room with huge floodlights and a large industrial style switch, and that I didn't want any shadows in the room at all.
By the time this line of discussion was played out my splinter group leader layed out the soft lighting scheme as if it was church doctrine and folks seemed to go out of there way to point out to me how much better the soft lighting scheme was. I think that they were right about the soft lighting scheme and did from shortly after the first time that the whole thing was brought up to me. But their overwrought response to my joking around was IMO COMPLETELY INSANE AND UNNECESSARY.
As much as I don't like spiritualizing simple things, I still can;t help but think that my splinter leader who boasted three or for times in front of the whole group," If people only knew what I did in the ministry I'd be sent to prison" probably has grown too fond of his dark little corners!
As much as I don't like spiritualizing simple things, I still can;t help but think that my splinter leader who boasted three or for times in front of the whole group," If people only knew what I did in the ministry I'd be sent to prison" probably has grown too fond of his dark little corners!
Soooo. *we* have broken off (or were booted out of) twi..
so the big question (I'm asking it for offshoots.. I've heard at least one actually ask it)
"WHADA WE DO NOW"..
so along comes this wonderful, professional character.. gives a few GENTLE words.. that if they'd do at least a few, he'd actually lay some honest RESPECT on them..
isn't it like.. God's SCREAMING at them?
and why here? Pretty simple.. this is about the only place they will receive an honest critique of sorts..
I think absolute truth is available today. This is not popular. This Cult Awareness is a back door way of rejecting the idea that God is real and can intervene with His revelation.
and as far as "absolute truth" is concerned.. it's the same as being able of holding "absolute wealth"..
if one could, it would break the "game".
If you've won EVERYTHING.. you've just inherited a heck of a lot of nothing..
I'll say this in the least offensive manner, and the least threatening mode that I can..
and as far as "absolute truth" is concerned.. it's the same as being able of holding "absolute wealth"..
if one could, it would break the "game".
If you've won EVERYTHING.. you've just inherited a heck of a lot of nothing..
I'll say this in the least offensive manner, and the least threatening mode that I can..
Bub, you can have it..
:)
I recall quite well a night when I was at Emporia...in the 10th corps...Martindale was screaming..."All I ever wanted was to be RIGHT!"...He was totally obsessed with holding this absolute truth, to the end that he became delusional...and he went insane.
I think Martindale is the extreme example of what happened to a lot of people in lesser degrees perhaps but also in varying degrees. There's an almost intoxicating mental state that occurs when a person deludes themself with "I am one of the special ones" ...they annoy those of us who really are.
Later on if anyone else other than our fearful leader had anything to say his most loyal followers would do a nudge, nudge, wink, wink kind of thing by saying something like,"lucifer means SHINING ONE." After that "SPLINTER SPEAK" was well established in their group think all they'd have to do as say something like, "boy, that was shiny."
So anything that anybody else said was disregarded not based on merit, but it was called devilish because it didn't proceed from that "word in the flesh" guy that they allowed to have complete dominance over their lives.
This whole "shiny" thing was not way speak, I'll call it "splinter speak."
I wish I could "shout out" (nudge nudge wink wink PAW) a good bye. I've gotta go to work.
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A few have stated here that the guidelines for not being a cult weren't meant to be applied to a group 2000 years ago. But it seems to me that they can be applied, and the first century Christians, as Jeff pointed out, would "pass the test".
Under "advocating freedom" I would also add that Mike had a particular problem with allowing "open questioning of the leader's beliefs & practices," and "creating a mechanism for modifying beliefs & practices." But when there were questions about certain points which weren't spelled out by Jesus, they met and discussed it, such as when they began to realize that Gentiles could be included, and the question of circumcision, dealt with in the council of Acts 15. For that matter, there wasn't just ONE leader who was unquestionable. There were the twelve, there was Paul who focused on reaching the Gentiles, there was James who was an administrative leader in Jerusalem but not a top "head" that could not be challenged. These guidelines fit the early church as well as anything today.
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Broken Arrow
Personally I would consider suspect any group where one or a few persons have absolute authority and where there is some sort of inner circle. When Jesus Christ ascended the Bible says he sent the Holy Spirit (gasp! Capital "H", capital "S"!) and that He would lead us into all truth. Jesus clearly taught that the Church is to be guided by those who are submitted to authority outside of themselves. True leaders are those who are emptied of themselves and realize that they have nothing that was not given to them by something higher, i.e. God. There is opposed to being led by someone who has a "special revelation" from God. That is called Gnosticism and that was very much a part of twi.
The model of leadership exhibited by twi was improper, unhealthy, and devilish. I respectfully submit that at our basic core we as people are selfish. Even our "good intentions" are marred with our own selfishness and desire to control our environments for our own benefit. A leader therefore must be submitted and willing to be wrong and corrected by others. A leader must be intent on guiding others but draw up short when it comes to dictating how others should live out truth in their own lives.
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JeffSjo
Dear John,
I've always heard about dear John letters, I've never written one before.
I just love your list.
Personally I think that it's sad that some feel that such good suggestions are too restricting on what they feel is a movement of God. Especially when the scriptural examples line up so nicely with your list and sentiments from what I can see.
I don't know how you feel about the scriptures and I don't see any real good reason for me to ask, but I like the way that your list lines up with them no matter how you feel about the scriptures.
JEFF
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socks
Another way to view these ideas, and others that could surely be added to the list-
Ask the question "is there anything wrong with them". Does anyone suffer or lose or come up with less because of these kinds of actions?
That list again -
Be Transparent
Be Accountable
Advocate Freedom
Provide Member Protections
Value Respect for Non-Members
Provide Informed Consent
I might add another - "Be honest". That's probably too simple to include in a list of tips on running a tip-top organization but honestly - doesn't it seem like one of the hardest things for people to be and do, period? Just be honest. Be as open and upfront when we're wrong as we are when we're right.
Now that's not right, even for a second. Assuming no alterior motives here, that's just not right.
Jesus and the gospel records in their day and time - the Roman government cared little about Jesus and don't get involved in the narrative until forced to. So, look at society today in a place like the U.S.A. - we play a much different game in American Christianity than Jesus did I think.
When asked about paying taxes to Caesar Jesus responds, render to him what's His. Render to God's what's His. He also said once that you can't serve greed and God, or serve two masters.
Jesus is recorded as taking care of those who followed Him - yet when he's said to have been approached by a Roman Centurion seeking help for someone, Jesus responds as graciously as for one who is with Him. The soldier leaves, never to be heard from again.
My p'rnt - to live in this world responsibly should be served by our beliefs. We can function responsibly in our society as easily as Jesus did, if we remember - we aren't Jesus and we're not doing the same thing that Jesus did. We're not. It's simple.
If our beliefs are good, good should be the outcome. God sends rain and everyone gets wet, His sun wakes everyone up. We tend to want to divide and cripple those who disagree or don't appear to be in our lock step version of The Truth As We See It Today. God doesn't work that way. Certain things, including Savior Jesus Christ are for all. We deny, God gives. We should do more as God does. There is Absolute Truth and it's a Truth of God, not us. So we can rest, assured that whatever Truth is in us and comes out of us, it's not of our making.
(If and when anything "legitimate" comes around it's so often so quiet as to barely be heard of, because it's not funded by millions in donations or staged and televised. Much like the little ol' blind guy that Jesus healed and that wandered off still rubbing his eyes and probably thinking "clouds! whoa! rocks!" he was of little interest to anyone once they were done with him and that record stands as a grand proverb to the ability of human nature to take even the best of things and rub them in the dirt. But - he could still see. And Someone did still care. )
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JeffSjo
Hi Socks,
In my splinter group, the leader openly sneered at the concept of being honest. It was sometimes when issues that I was concerned about had been brought up for consideration. His pet toadies and chief thugs unfortunately picked up on the same sentiment.
To me, honesty as the sane world knows it, is a necessity for accountability and transparency. I think that it's great that you point it out, but the way I see it, with groups such as TWI and my splinter group, they've gotten SOOO DISHONEST that any presentations by them that say that they are honest are to be disqualified for serious consideration because of the lying nature of the source. IMO their proffesions of honesty are just another self-serving spin.
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socks
Absolutely, jeffsjo - it's one of the characteristics most notable about Jesus in the gospels. He was honest about who He was and what He was doing. If someone didn't believe, understand or care was another matter.
That's "transparency" - honesty doesn't cloud transparency, it fulfills it. Honesty doesn't restrict accountablity, it defines it. To be honest one doesn't require another to do something they would never do or that is wrong. Nor does it undervalue or disrespect anyone or anything - it gives the correct authentic amounts of both. Ultimately nearly everything else will come and go but in the end - what? If there's truth, can it be any less than the honest truth?
No "legitmate" work of God will be impeded by honesty. The only "illlegitimate" work that would be undermined by honesty is one that has something to hide. :)
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excathedra
I'm really "moved" by this recent honesty discussion -- I'm thinking about christianity and my regular old "five-senses" ;) job.... and just about everything else in life.
thanks
ALSO i'm simply astounded by people's ability to be dishonest and convince themselves that they are honest
not to say that i don't do it either, but some people are so over the top
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cheranne
hmmm....gee I just think that if it is all that complicated to have post a notes "everywhere"on how NOT
to be a cult///forget about it!!!!!
Run away as fast as you can..it sounds more like to me How not to have a toxin tainted in your blood
allowing you to live life free from INFECTION(BUT still having it and not telling anyone)
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excathedra
ha
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socks
I'm just looking for a baseline here, eXXe. What's the most basic, universal and helpful ingredient that would leaven the whole biscuit?
Another word for honesty in my vocab is "authentic". Real. The "real deal". When something's real, it speaks for itself. It may not be understood but it simply is what it is, no more no less.
I could start a whizbang gang of do-gooders and have a governing board to make sure we stay on course. One filled with lying back stabbing SOB's.
The basic integrity of the system isn't solely in the system. Integrity has to be in the components that form the system. What you need is just some people who are committed to being honest and who will help each other stay honest. Everyone needs some help now and then. Help is good. But there has to be a respect for it. In theory Christianity has a very sound foundation - Christ. Why go to the trouble to build around it, why not use it?
There's Christian ministries and churches today who act like it's an insult if someone dares question what they do - "we're doing the Lord's work! We answer to a higher authority! You have no right to make demands of us, that's making demands of God Himself! We'll answer questions when we're good and ready and if the Lord says so!"
B-llshi-. God searches the hearts of all and knows the beginning and the end of our days. We barely know which foot gets what shoe on any given morning and think it's Payday if we get a prayer answered.
A reality check is much needed, IMO. Much needed.
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WordWolf
"'Character' is what you are when no one is looking."
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JeffSjo
There were some events in my splinter group that seem to relate to the honesty issue. It may seem odd to some of you, but all I can say is that when a small group of people cut themselves off from everyone and everything else, the subtle (or not so subtle in this case) undercurrents can get weird and twisted.
The within the group discussion was concerning lighting a room. A roomate of my wife and I pointed out that I kept the house too bright, and she explained that softer light and darker areas within the room was a more comfortable lighting scheme for her. I went with her inpute, but also started joking around that it seemed to me that I might prefer lighting a room with huge floodlights and a large industrial style switch, and that I didn't want any shadows in the room at all.
By the time this line of discussion was played out my splinter group leader layed out the soft lighting scheme as if it was church doctrine and folks seemed to go out of there way to point out to me how much better the soft lighting scheme was. I think that they were right about the soft lighting scheme and did from shortly after the first time that the whole thing was brought up to me. But their overwrought response to my joking around was IMO COMPLETELY INSANE AND UNNECESSARY.
As much as I don't like spiritualizing simple things, I still can;t help but think that my splinter leader who boasted three or for times in front of the whole group," If people only knew what I did in the ministry I'd be sent to prison" probably has grown too fond of his dark little corners!
(edited for clarity)
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excathedra
what a breathtaking, lovely, authentic truth
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cheranne
As much as I don't like spiritualizing simple things, I still can;t help but think that my splinter leader who boasted three or for times in front of the whole group," If people only knew what I did in the ministry I'd be sent to prison" probably has grown too fond of his dark little corners!
:unsure: Oh SNAP! :blink:
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excathedra
he should be in prison, the a.s.s.
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Ham
Soooo. *we* have broken off (or were booted out of) twi..
so the big question (I'm asking it for offshoots.. I've heard at least one actually ask it)
"WHADA WE DO NOW"..
so along comes this wonderful, professional character.. gives a few GENTLE words.. that if they'd do at least a few, he'd actually lay some honest RESPECT on them..
isn't it like.. God's SCREAMING at them?
and why here? Pretty simple.. this is about the only place they will receive an honest critique of sorts..
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Ham
and as far as "absolute truth" is concerned.. it's the same as being able of holding "absolute wealth"..
if one could, it would break the "game".
If you've won EVERYTHING.. you've just inherited a heck of a lot of nothing..
I'll say this in the least offensive manner, and the least threatening mode that I can..
Bub, you can have it..
:)
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Ham
Ya know..
hey, I really do pay attention in class.. I've read a little bit..
In quantum mechanics.. if you want to be *really* "right" .. you've gotta be hydrogen..
pretty lonely little world there..
:)
for all of the other "citizens" in da world.. they are doing a desperate amount of spin why it isn't all so simple..
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Ham
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Ham
Don't knock it. "Bear" had a "trip" like this once..
it isn't all as bad as it looks..
Mike.. come back..
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Ham
Sorry.. too many arcane references.. if anyone REALLY wants them, I'll supply them..
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GrouchoMarxJr
I recall quite well a night when I was at Emporia...in the 10th corps...Martindale was screaming..."All I ever wanted was to be RIGHT!"...He was totally obsessed with holding this absolute truth, to the end that he became delusional...and he went insane.
I think Martindale is the extreme example of what happened to a lot of people in lesser degrees perhaps but also in varying degrees. There's an almost intoxicating mental state that occurs when a person deludes themself with "I am one of the special ones" ...they annoy those of us who really are.
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Ham
Well, I can't argue with that. *They* have always said I'm "special"..
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JeffSjo
Dear cheranne and friends,
It got more twisted and wierder than that.
Later on if anyone else other than our fearful leader had anything to say his most loyal followers would do a nudge, nudge, wink, wink kind of thing by saying something like,"lucifer means SHINING ONE." After that "SPLINTER SPEAK" was well established in their group think all they'd have to do as say something like, "boy, that was shiny."
So anything that anybody else said was disregarded not based on merit, but it was called devilish because it didn't proceed from that "word in the flesh" guy that they allowed to have complete dominance over their lives.
This whole "shiny" thing was not way speak, I'll call it "splinter speak."
I wish I could "shout out" (nudge nudge wink wink PAW) a good bye. I've gotta go to work.
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