I believe he thought he was already in possession of "the" truth whatever that might be at that particular moment. I was ok with most of what he wrote until he wrote the Order My Steps in Thy Word (I believe that was the title) book which was clearly an "unearthing" of "truth" designed to manipulate the followers. I bought it, read it, and was astounded at what he did with Romans.
His goal was to figure out how to get enough people to buy into the product he offered beyond the introductory offer, so he enticed with the notion that all this effort was to get to the truth - whatever it happened to be, but it wasn't too long before I saw that he believed he had all the answers and he really wasn't looking anymore. Not that I blame him. It can get rather draining after a while.
I'd be interested in hearing other examples of Wierwille getting assistance from other folks too. But I'd also be interested in hearing how Wierwille spoke of them after their association was over.
Another poster on another thread recently coined a phrase that is really working for me concerning him, sociopathic narcissist! the reason this label fits for me right here is that I remember Wierwille reffering to Pillia as a "sellout" after their time together and the fact that he wouldn't let anyone steal from his own spotlight seems to fit for me. Not to mention my splinter leader big-time.
Was Wierwille really concerned with unearthing "The Truth"?
Is there any real evidence to suggest so?
So far, it's been noted he brought in Bishop Pillai to teach Renewed Mind (not a Biblical concept in the form it is presented in TWI) and Oriental customs as they supposedly related to Biblical times. (Also a subject that bears scrutiny)
Any other examples of how he actively sought the assistance of non-TWI people to aid him in his effort to present "The Truth"?
Well, there are lots of topics here at gsc I think, that mention people like B.G. Leonard, Stiles, etc. Actively seeking their assistance is an interesting way of putting it. I think he looked for people to "back up" what he was teaching. During my Way Corps training in 71-73, he brought in an archeologist to "prove" there was "proof" of Bible events found in the ground of Israel, etc. He used tapes of exorcisms at the Advanced Class that illustrated and backed up his teachings on devil spirit possession. There's also Lamsa, of course, who he invited to HQ and he backed up VP's belief that Aramaic was the language the Bible was written in. IMO, there's no real proof for that claim, although lots of people believe it. That's all that comes to mind just now...
I wonder what VP was really searching for. "The Truth" about what? He convinced me there was no truth found anywhere about anything outside the covers of the Bible. Yikes.
I find it hard to believe, with the possible exception of EARLY ON, Wierwille was looking for real truth.
Like all truly professional criminals he believed in what he was doing - but that is not truth - it is belief in one's goal. I am not talking about a meth-head robbing a convenience store or even a bank robber - I am talking about someone who makes their living at crime. The ones that when interviewed in prison staunchly believe that they did nothing wrong and that it is a mistake they are in jail.
Wierwille had a fine machine running...he could make you cry, make you laugh - he could freaking work a crowd as he wished. He was rolling in cash predicated on the belief that you leave all the world behind and fall into lockstep with TWI (meaning VPW). He tolerated no disagreement on anything other than perhaps the flavor of salad dressing you preferred - although god help you if you didn't like bratwurst.
As mentioned above he had visitors who corroborated his teaching and reviled those who disagreed even in the slightest. He was searching all right - searching AND BELIEVING in anything that would further his empire...and...like all professional criminals he worked HARD at it. I have no doubt he spent hours with his bible - working on his plans to masterfully egg crowds on to fanaticism in some of its most deviant forms.
Cro-magnon the Okie couldn't work a crowd so he pretty much wrecked that fine money making machine - but the ingrained damage had already been done to so many people that even now with Aqua Man gone - TWI still runs on the inertia of the corruption of its genesis.
Well, there are lots of topics here at gsc I think, that mention people like B.G. Leonard, Stiles, etc. Actively seeking their assistance is an interesting way of putting it. I think he looked for people to "back up" what he was teaching. During my Way Corps training in 71-73, he brought in an archeologist to "prove" there was "proof" of Bible events found in the ground of Israel, etc. He used tapes of exorcisms at the Advanced Class that illustrated and backed up his teachings on devil spirit possession. There's also Lamsa, of course, who he invited to HQ and he backed up VP's belief that Aramaic was the language the Bible was written in. IMO, there's no real proof for that claim, although lots of people believe it. That's all that comes to mind just now...
I wonder what VP was really searching for. "The Truth" about what? He convinced me there was no truth found anywhere about anything outside the covers of the Bible. Yikes.
peace,
penworks
Thanks penworks......good points.
IMO......wierwille was searching for "a product" to market. Even in his own words, wierwille was searching for that "thing" that would empower and propel one forward. Well.......along came Jones......er, Stiles and shortly thereafter B.G. Leonard's CLASS.
The lightbulb came on. After sitting in B.G.'s class twice, wierwille begain to connect the dots of how his marketing strategy would free him from the denominational church. It had a "business" thrust to it......a MLM corporation where wierwille held the copyrights and purse-strings of "a bible class to the masses." The very fact that veepee "buried" Leonard's name in a laundry list of teachers who helped him formulate "a re-packaging of truth" speaks volumes.
Interesting to me......is that wierwille seemed to search for "a product, a package, a gimmick, a way production inroad" to appeal to the masses. IMO......it lends towards wierwille's basic lazy nature of looking for something that would replicate itself....over and over and over again. Pfal was like that. Once filmed..........EVEN WIERWILLE COULD NOT RE-PACKAGE IT IN 1977.
Contrasted with such men like Rev. Billy Graham.......a minister who traveled the world teaching to tens of thousands and ministering in countless ways for six or seven DECADES. Yet, wierwille did his darndest to "build a recruitment force" (aka the way corps) wherein he sat around boasting of his wierwille heritage, the audible voice of god's calling, etc. etc......while he sipped his drambuie and later slipped away to the motorcoach for a "nightcap."
Interesting to me......is that wierwille seemed to search for "a product, a package, a gimmick, a way production inroad" to appeal to the masses. IMO......it lends towards wierwille's basic lazy nature of looking for something that would replicate itself....over and over and over again. Pfal was like that. Once filmed..........EVEN WIERWILLE COULD NOT RE-PACKAGE IT IN 1977.
Der victoid knew how he (pilfered) obtained the that class - he attended the class, taught it, and appropriated it as his very own.
By filming that class he insured that ONLY he was THE TEACHER.
I think VPW sat through somebody else's class(es) and then just took the information, lock stock and barrel, and put it under his own name. He didn't even bother to disguise it by using a different version of the Bible, say, RSV or NASB. There are much better versions of the Bible available than KJV, which was subject to political interference at the time it was compiled. Also since it was compiled, the research of others has shed light on difficult wording or mistranslations. In later versions, something may be expressed in a way that has impact in our lives today but KJV hides.
I think he used KJV because he could set himself up as a teacher of old English too. (For those still in doubt - his English was appalling and he did not understand certain English expressions or pronunciations, especially as they were used a long time ago.) If he had even studied just a little Shakespeare (most of whose works are approximately contemporary with KJV), he would have a better understanding of how words were used at that time. VPW didn't use KJV because it's "the best" version - he used it to obscure the Bible, by making it hard to understand. Then he could put his own interpretation on it. Having discouraged people from looking into other versions, he had free rein to invent things.
PFAL is set up to present the Bible as being The Only book that one needs to check. It's absolutely right and we just need to be able to reconcile accounts. So PFAL says, quite early on, giving a really simple account. God protected these books because these are what He wanted us to have. Or some such line.
But - not necessarily at PFAL stage - how about some teaching some time (yet another class!!) of how we actually got to get that book? The scholarly debates about authenticity? How we came by some of the books or scrolls?
The Dead Sea Scrolls (discovered after BG Leonard put his class together) - and there are other ancient texts - When information about those started to come to light, wouldn't a "research and teaching ministry" at least consider if there was anything we might need to know about? (Some of them back up the ancientness of the texts but other scrolls seem to go in a different direction.)
As to archaeology - it doesn't necessarily back up the Biblical version, and often doesn't.
As to contemporaneous records (Roman records, Josephus), where was any research and teaching on that?
How about instruction in Greek by native Greek speakers?
How about instruction in Hebrew by Israeli or Jewish speaker - but am I right in thinking that they themselves had to re-learn Hebrew because it had become basically a dead language?
How about some discussion/teaching by one or more rabbis or other Jewish experts?
At least, teach the Corps this stuff!
But to introduce guest speakers or authentic teaching courses, at any level, would necessarily require the students to engage critical thinking skills. And PFAL was a crammer that from the outset overrode critical thinking skills. Things were either black or white. No rainbow palette, no choice, nothing but fundamentalism.
And - as some here have posted - if "The Truth is not a What but a Who" - he hadn't a chance of teaching that because he simply didn't know the Lord Jesus. He certainly didn't quest after knowing him.
...and who could ever forget David Nobel, author of the Marxist Minstrels...this is the guy who went on about the Beatles being communist infiltrators or some such nonsense...I thought it was bogus when I first heard it...but Drambuie Vic thought the guy was great...
...and who could ever forget David Nobel, author of the Marxist Minstrels...this is the guy who went on about the Beatles being communist infiltrators or some such nonsense...I thought it was bogus when I first heard it...but Drambuie Vic thought the guy was great...
...snow on the gaspumps indeed!
Hey man - Vic was trying to be a rock star in his own right - smirking heavily now.... Deep Purple did Smoke on the Water - Vic did Snow on the Gas Pumps - sorry bad humor but I couldn't resist that one.
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Tzaia
I believe he thought he was already in possession of "the" truth whatever that might be at that particular moment. I was ok with most of what he wrote until he wrote the Order My Steps in Thy Word (I believe that was the title) book which was clearly an "unearthing" of "truth" designed to manipulate the followers. I bought it, read it, and was astounded at what he did with Romans.
His goal was to figure out how to get enough people to buy into the product he offered beyond the introductory offer, so he enticed with the notion that all this effort was to get to the truth - whatever it happened to be, but it wasn't too long before I saw that he believed he had all the answers and he really wasn't looking anymore. Not that I blame him. It can get rather draining after a while.
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Ham
It may have all been as easy as plagiarizing off a log backwards..
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JeffSjo
Hi Waysider,
I'd be interested in hearing other examples of Wierwille getting assistance from other folks too. But I'd also be interested in hearing how Wierwille spoke of them after their association was over.
Another poster on another thread recently coined a phrase that is really working for me concerning him, sociopathic narcissist! the reason this label fits for me right here is that I remember Wierwille reffering to Pillia as a "sellout" after their time together and the fact that he wouldn't let anyone steal from his own spotlight seems to fit for me. Not to mention my splinter leader big-time.
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penworks
Well, there are lots of topics here at gsc I think, that mention people like B.G. Leonard, Stiles, etc. Actively seeking their assistance is an interesting way of putting it. I think he looked for people to "back up" what he was teaching. During my Way Corps training in 71-73, he brought in an archeologist to "prove" there was "proof" of Bible events found in the ground of Israel, etc. He used tapes of exorcisms at the Advanced Class that illustrated and backed up his teachings on devil spirit possession. There's also Lamsa, of course, who he invited to HQ and he backed up VP's belief that Aramaic was the language the Bible was written in. IMO, there's no real proof for that claim, although lots of people believe it. That's all that comes to mind just now...
I wonder what VP was really searching for. "The Truth" about what? He convinced me there was no truth found anywhere about anything outside the covers of the Bible. Yikes.
peace,
penworks
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RumRunner
I find it hard to believe, with the possible exception of EARLY ON, Wierwille was looking for real truth.
Like all truly professional criminals he believed in what he was doing - but that is not truth - it is belief in one's goal. I am not talking about a meth-head robbing a convenience store or even a bank robber - I am talking about someone who makes their living at crime. The ones that when interviewed in prison staunchly believe that they did nothing wrong and that it is a mistake they are in jail.
Wierwille had a fine machine running...he could make you cry, make you laugh - he could freaking work a crowd as he wished. He was rolling in cash predicated on the belief that you leave all the world behind and fall into lockstep with TWI (meaning VPW). He tolerated no disagreement on anything other than perhaps the flavor of salad dressing you preferred - although god help you if you didn't like bratwurst.
As mentioned above he had visitors who corroborated his teaching and reviled those who disagreed even in the slightest. He was searching all right - searching AND BELIEVING in anything that would further his empire...and...like all professional criminals he worked HARD at it. I have no doubt he spent hours with his bible - working on his plans to masterfully egg crowds on to fanaticism in some of its most deviant forms.
Cro-magnon the Okie couldn't work a crowd so he pretty much wrecked that fine money making machine - but the ingrained damage had already been done to so many people that even now with Aqua Man gone - TWI still runs on the inertia of the corruption of its genesis.
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skyrider
Thanks penworks......good points.
IMO......wierwille was searching for "a product" to market. Even in his own words, wierwille was searching for that "thing" that would empower and propel one forward. Well.......along came Jones......er, Stiles and shortly thereafter B.G. Leonard's CLASS.
The lightbulb came on. After sitting in B.G.'s class twice, wierwille begain to connect the dots of how his marketing strategy would free him from the denominational church. It had a "business" thrust to it......a MLM corporation where wierwille held the copyrights and purse-strings of "a bible class to the masses." The very fact that veepee "buried" Leonard's name in a laundry list of teachers who helped him formulate "a re-packaging of truth" speaks volumes.
Interesting to me......is that wierwille seemed to search for "a product, a package, a gimmick, a way production inroad" to appeal to the masses. IMO......it lends towards wierwille's basic lazy nature of looking for something that would replicate itself....over and over and over again. Pfal was like that. Once filmed..........EVEN WIERWILLE COULD NOT RE-PACKAGE IT IN 1977.
Contrasted with such men like Rev. Billy Graham.......a minister who traveled the world teaching to tens of thousands and ministering in countless ways for six or seven DECADES. Yet, wierwille did his darndest to "build a recruitment force" (aka the way corps) wherein he sat around boasting of his wierwille heritage, the audible voice of god's calling, etc. etc......while he sipped his drambuie and later slipped away to the motorcoach for a "nightcap."
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excathedra
i think he brought in the guy on the wheaties box but my memory could be failing
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doojable
Der victoid knew how he (pilfered) obtained the that class - he attended the class, taught it, and appropriated it as his very own.
By filming that class he insured that ONLY he was THE TEACHER.
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Twinky
Quest for the truth? I don't think so.
I think VPW sat through somebody else's class(es) and then just took the information, lock stock and barrel, and put it under his own name. He didn't even bother to disguise it by using a different version of the Bible, say, RSV or NASB. There are much better versions of the Bible available than KJV, which was subject to political interference at the time it was compiled. Also since it was compiled, the research of others has shed light on difficult wording or mistranslations. In later versions, something may be expressed in a way that has impact in our lives today but KJV hides.
I think he used KJV because he could set himself up as a teacher of old English too. (For those still in doubt - his English was appalling and he did not understand certain English expressions or pronunciations, especially as they were used a long time ago.) If he had even studied just a little Shakespeare (most of whose works are approximately contemporary with KJV), he would have a better understanding of how words were used at that time. VPW didn't use KJV because it's "the best" version - he used it to obscure the Bible, by making it hard to understand. Then he could put his own interpretation on it. Having discouraged people from looking into other versions, he had free rein to invent things.
PFAL is set up to present the Bible as being The Only book that one needs to check. It's absolutely right and we just need to be able to reconcile accounts. So PFAL says, quite early on, giving a really simple account. God protected these books because these are what He wanted us to have. Or some such line.
But - not necessarily at PFAL stage - how about some teaching some time (yet another class!!) of how we actually got to get that book? The scholarly debates about authenticity? How we came by some of the books or scrolls?
The Dead Sea Scrolls (discovered after BG Leonard put his class together) - and there are other ancient texts - When information about those started to come to light, wouldn't a "research and teaching ministry" at least consider if there was anything we might need to know about? (Some of them back up the ancientness of the texts but other scrolls seem to go in a different direction.)
As to archaeology - it doesn't necessarily back up the Biblical version, and often doesn't.
As to contemporaneous records (Roman records, Josephus), where was any research and teaching on that?
How about instruction in Greek by native Greek speakers?
How about instruction in Hebrew by Israeli or Jewish speaker - but am I right in thinking that they themselves had to re-learn Hebrew because it had become basically a dead language?
How about some discussion/teaching by one or more rabbis or other Jewish experts?
At least, teach the Corps this stuff!
But to introduce guest speakers or authentic teaching courses, at any level, would necessarily require the students to engage critical thinking skills. And PFAL was a crammer that from the outset overrode critical thinking skills. Things were either black or white. No rainbow palette, no choice, nothing but fundamentalism.
And - as some here have posted - if "The Truth is not a What but a Who" - he hadn't a chance of teaching that because he simply didn't know the Lord Jesus. He certainly didn't quest after knowing him.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...and who could ever forget David Nobel, author of the Marxist Minstrels...this is the guy who went on about the Beatles being communist infiltrators or some such nonsense...I thought it was bogus when I first heard it...but Drambuie Vic thought the guy was great...
...snow on the gaspumps indeed!
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RumRunner
Hey man - Vic was trying to be a rock star in his own right - smirking heavily now.... Deep Purple did Smoke on the Water - Vic did Snow on the Gas Pumps - sorry bad humor but I couldn't resist that one.
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Ham
And who was the big spiritualist vic went to the heels of for "truth"? Wasn't it Arthur Ford?
I wonder if he "laid out" the vicster's "ministry" like he supposedly did for Moon..
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