All of the above.. ALL of it. (Well I don't agree with Oldies's assessment.)
Stephanie - you need to know what TWI is about. Be aware that if you start right out calling it a cult, your friend will be convinced to drop you - they'll tell her that she is "unequally yoked to an unbeliever."
The more you know the more you will be able to help her. Most likely she is looking for answers about God. The more she learns the more she'll feel like she needs to learn - and there's the hook.'
One more class...
One more program...
One more meeting after one more thing that will bring her closer to Gawd...
At least until she's so far away from the truth that she doesn't recognize the truth when she hears it.
Hey Steph. I too am in college and have a friend who's in TWI. Ironically, her name is Steph too. The only difference is that my Steph was raised in TWI. She and I have talked about it a few times, I've cited some things about Wierwille's questionable history and some TWI teachings that contradict scripture, and it's like she gets really angry when I say anything remotely critical of TWI.
Be careful, is all I have to say. I know I've had to be careful with what I say. If you just go blabbing off saying "I think this is wrong TWI's a cult!!!" etc etc then she will most certainly try to stay away from you. Just pray that God does His work in her heart to guide her steps, is all I can say. It's what I'm doing for Steph.
But feel free PM me if you have any questions. I'd actually like to help out if I can.
the only reason i would think that her twig influenced her on the abortion is because she was never a person that would have an abortion. so that is why it would be odd and heartbreaking. but i will not accuse her twig doing that unless she mentions it.
i guess i will just present her with the information i found and tell her that i am praying for her and that if it is the truth she is seeking God will reveal it to her. and i pray that he does open her eyes. I have come to realize too in the past couple of days that I really need to stop thinking that I can fix this problem. Since I found out I have just had this burden on my shoulders but I really shouldn't....God has to move in her heart for her to realize. I can't do it all myself. So i will just be there loving her and helping her anyway i can.
Stephanie,
You sound like a wonderful friend. :) The best thing you can do is to pray and be there to listen. I have prayed for God to give you wisdom to know how to help.
thank you guys for all your advice, it really is helping me! thank you for the prayers as well :)
I think I am going to talk to her next time I see her. but i am not going to make a big deal about it but just tell her that when she told me about paul weirwille last week I had never heard of him so I decided to look him up and see what he was all about (which is true, that is how i found out about everything) and then tell her what I found ....but I won't mention the word "cult" or use a "i am right, you are wrong" attitude. But just tell her I am concerned about her and thought she should know this information since she is involved with it. and if we keep talking about it then we keep talking about it. I will tell her I know that she desires the truth and so do i and that I would love to look at the Word together with her and discuss it as sisters in Christ. and if for some reason she gets angry with me then I will just continue to love her and be her friend and hopefully she will realize on her own.
It may be a very good idea to look at the Word together. If you have enough background to show her some alternative viewpoints or show her other scriptures, you will at least be keeping her critical thinking skills alive. TWI presents its information very "pat" and she will have an answer for everything. She will probably welcome the opportunity to share with you ("receive, retain, release").
TWI is (or was) hot on confrontation and sharply rebuking the adversary - in other words, she may speak sharply to you if you present something other than what lines up with TWI doctrine.
TWI is very poor on compassion and empathy. You can make a difference here.
Do take up Brushstroke on his offer of help. He's only young but he makes some really good and thoughtful points, and clearly sees through the BS that permeates TWI doctrine.
BTW there will be some stuff that is accurate, true, a proper representation of what God's heart for his people is. Choose your horse carefully when you query doctrine from TWI.
If your current handle is your real name, you might want to change it if you plan on bringing her to the Cafe. She may feel seriously spied upon or that you are talking behind her back, and she will cease to trust you. I can't quite remember how to do that, but if you emailed Paw or the moderators, they would be able to tell you or do it for you.
This is just my two cents worth but so you know, I have experience on all sides of this issue: as one who had family concerned that I had joined twi in the first place, as someone who had dear friends decide to leave twi and try to talk me into leaving, and then finally as someone who saw for herself all the lies, hypocracy, and damage this group could do and had to find a way to leave after 19 years of heavy involvement, and tried to get other dear friends to leave with me...
You've received some really good advice on this thread, and it sounds like you are starting to get the right idea about how to talk to your friend about this. Just understand that once she has bought into the big concept that twi does a better job than any other group at getting to the truth of the Word of God, it will probably be REALLY hard to discuss any one particular point with her because she will just assume you don't work the Word diligently/properly, or you aren't spiritually mature enough to get the concepts, etc. And if you push a point too far she will go from thinking you are just mistaken or mislead to wondering if you are wrongly influenced in your thinking (aka devil spirits).
If you push too hard, she WILL choose twi over your friendship, no matter how long you have been friends. Many of us here on these boards had trusted friends and family try to point out what they could see was wrong with this group, but we didn't want to hear it and many of us ended up turning our backs on those friends/family for years.
You need to understand that whole time she's been attending fellowships what has been happening underneath the surface is that she has been receiving training on how to dismiss other people's insights or arguments about the Bible, and much more importantly she has been taught how to start disregarding her own gut instincts. If there were ever things about the group that made her stop and pause, she's learned/learning how to shut those thoughts down and over-ride them with what twi has told her is right. She will consider that she's "renewing her mind to the Word" when she does this. It's a really incremental process and she won't even realize it has been happening.
My best overall advice is "tread lightly". I think it is good for you to know a whole lot about twi but you don't necessarily need to discuss those things with her up front. If someone isn't ready to hear the truth, there is no amount of logic or factual evidence, no amount of words -- or right way to say those words -- that will get her to actually HEAR whatever you try to tell her. Not if she doesn't want to hear them. She will justify herself and twi any way she can, and eventually shut you out to keep from hearing the arguments anymore, just like an abuse victim does.
I would just focus more on what it is that has attracted her to them. Is it the people? Is it their promise of prosperity in the face of worldly pressures? Is it their promise of a closer walk for/with God? Is it her own fear of not having a handle on the rest of her life? Trust me, there is "something" that is the key draw factor for her, whether she knows it or not.
Most importantly, just let her know that no matter what, you are her solid friend, and then stick to that. Even if you cannot get through to her now, at 'some' point, when she's ready to leave the group, she will need and appreciate having a friend like you that knew her before twi that she can go back to and start over. Someone she knows will forgive her bad judgement without hesitation. Knowing there is someone out there like that makes it easier to break off from twi when the person finally wants to make that leap.
well i talked to her and then just read what you said afterward and it was exactly how you said it. i told her what I had found out and at first she said I was mistaken and pretty much word for word reacted the way you said she would.even saying that we were "fighting" because of "devil spirits"
in the middle of talking she even said that if she had to she would never talk to me again so that we would never talk about it anymore. she got really angry with me.
but I assured her that I wasn't trying to attack her or make it seem like i was right and she was wrong but i told her that I loved her and she is one of my best friends and I am sharing it with her because i love her and don't want her to be mislead.
The conversation ended with us agreeing that we would look at the word together and discuss it together. hopefully this works out.
it really broke my heart because I didn't think she would be as angry with me as she was or that she would say she would never talk to me again.
thank you guys for all your help. really, it means a lot and it makes me hopeful.
well i talked to her and then just read what you said afterward and it was exactly how you said it. i told her what I had found out and at first she said I was mistaken and pretty much word for word reacted the way you said she would.even saying that we were "fighting" because of "devil spirits"
in the middle of talking she even said that if she had to she would never talk to me again so that we would never talk about it anymore. she got really angry with me.
but I assured her that I wasn't trying to attack her or make it seem like i was right and she was wrong but i told her that I loved her and she is one of my best friends and I am sharing it with her because i love her and don't want her to be mislead.
The conversation ended with us agreeing that we would look at the word together and discuss it together. hopefully this works out.
it really broke my heart because I didn't think she would be as angry with me as she was or that she would say she would never talk to me again.
thank you guys for all your help. really, it means a lot and it makes me hopeful.
That's how it seems to happen with Steph and I too. Of course, I think she's been a bit more forgiving towards me and my questions, but she does tend to get pretty angry when I tell her what I've found here at GSC and numerous other sites that say things about TWI.
I have a few threads I've created in the forum above this one, called About The Way. Take a look at them to get a good idea of where TWI stands on a lot of things. It'll help you understand (sort of understand, anyway...I find some of it to be gibberish) where they're coming from.
Something that you could do that would not be confrontational, but might give your friend some thought would be to point out good things about other people you know. Good things they do, good things that happen to them, their kindness, thoughtful actions, how they look out for each other...positive things, things that show friendship or community.
Twi isolates its people by coloring those on the outside as evil, or foolish or devil spirit inspired, on a road to destruction or harm, emphasis is on the bad negative things unbelievers experience or do.
The conversation ended with us agreeing that we would look at the word together and discuss it together. hopefully this works out.
it really broke my heart because I didn't think she would be as angry with me as she was or that she would say she would never talk to me again.
thank you guys for all your help. really, it means a lot and it makes me hopeful.
I'm sorry it turned out exactly as we said it would, but at least you know "why" and don't have to get completely freaked out by your friend's behavior. You are not alone. If no one has suggested it to you yet, get ahold of the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". It was written by people who never had any direct interaction with TWI but who understand the actions and principles involved whenever someone puts their trust in a spiritual authority figure and the authority figure abuses that trust. It will give you insight into what is going on with your friend although, again, she will not realize or admit that it is happening at all.
As for working the Word together, just realize that she will show you what they've taught her and if it doesn't make sense to you or you just don't agree with their conclusions, she will conclude you just don't see it (NOT that you might have a point). So, again, I suggest you tread lightly. Try to be honest with her but, well, you've seen who she will side with if you push too hard.
Steph - she was angry because she's most likely been told that the Satan would try to trick her out of the word through her family and friends.
You need to remember what a mind-numbing, soul-sucking, piece of crap twi is. Then remember that it's your friend that stands to lose the most. She's a person - so treat her like a person. To twi she's just another potential money contributor.
You need to understand that whole time she's been attending fellowships what has been happening underneath the surface is that she has been receiving training on how to dismiss other people's insights or arguments about the Bible, and much more importantly she has been taught how to start disregarding her own gut instincts. If there were ever things about the group that made her stop and pause, she's learned/learning how to shut those thoughts down and over-ride them with what twi has told her is right. She will consider that she's "renewing her mind to the Word" when she does this. It's a really incremental process and she won't even realize it has been happening.
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doojable
All of the above.. ALL of it. (Well I don't agree with Oldies's assessment.)
Stephanie - you need to know what TWI is about. Be aware that if you start right out calling it a cult, your friend will be convinced to drop you - they'll tell her that she is "unequally yoked to an unbeliever."
The more you know the more you will be able to help her. Most likely she is looking for answers about God. The more she learns the more she'll feel like she needs to learn - and there's the hook.'
One more class...
One more program...
One more meeting after one more thing that will bring her closer to Gawd...
At least until she's so far away from the truth that she doesn't recognize the truth when she hears it.
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Brushstroke
Hey Steph. I too am in college and have a friend who's in TWI. Ironically, her name is Steph too. The only difference is that my Steph was raised in TWI. She and I have talked about it a few times, I've cited some things about Wierwille's questionable history and some TWI teachings that contradict scripture, and it's like she gets really angry when I say anything remotely critical of TWI.
Be careful, is all I have to say. I know I've had to be careful with what I say. If you just go blabbing off saying "I think this is wrong TWI's a cult!!!" etc etc then she will most certainly try to stay away from you. Just pray that God does His work in her heart to guide her steps, is all I can say. It's what I'm doing for Steph.
But feel free PM me if you have any questions. I'd actually like to help out if I can.
~ Phil
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gladtobeout
Stephanie,
You sound like a wonderful friend. :) The best thing you can do is to pray and be there to listen. I have prayed for God to give you wisdom to know how to help.
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stephaniefaye
thank you guys for all your advice, it really is helping me! thank you for the prayers as well :)
I think I am going to talk to her next time I see her. but i am not going to make a big deal about it but just tell her that when she told me about paul weirwille last week I had never heard of him so I decided to look him up and see what he was all about (which is true, that is how i found out about everything) and then tell her what I found ....but I won't mention the word "cult" or use a "i am right, you are wrong" attitude. But just tell her I am concerned about her and thought she should know this information since she is involved with it. and if we keep talking about it then we keep talking about it. I will tell her I know that she desires the truth and so do i and that I would love to look at the Word together with her and discuss it as sisters in Christ. and if for some reason she gets angry with me then I will just continue to love her and be her friend and hopefully she will realize on her own.
man i am nervous.
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Twinky
It may be a very good idea to look at the Word together. If you have enough background to show her some alternative viewpoints or show her other scriptures, you will at least be keeping her critical thinking skills alive. TWI presents its information very "pat" and she will have an answer for everything. She will probably welcome the opportunity to share with you ("receive, retain, release").
TWI is (or was) hot on confrontation and sharply rebuking the adversary - in other words, she may speak sharply to you if you present something other than what lines up with TWI doctrine.
TWI is very poor on compassion and empathy. You can make a difference here.
Do take up Brushstroke on his offer of help. He's only young but he makes some really good and thoughtful points, and clearly sees through the BS that permeates TWI doctrine.
BTW there will be some stuff that is accurate, true, a proper representation of what God's heart for his people is. Choose your horse carefully when you query doctrine from TWI.
If your current handle is your real name, you might want to change it if you plan on bringing her to the Cafe. She may feel seriously spied upon or that you are talking behind her back, and she will cease to trust you. I can't quite remember how to do that, but if you emailed Paw or the moderators, they would be able to tell you or do it for you.
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TheHighWay
Stephaniefaye,
This is just my two cents worth but so you know, I have experience on all sides of this issue: as one who had family concerned that I had joined twi in the first place, as someone who had dear friends decide to leave twi and try to talk me into leaving, and then finally as someone who saw for herself all the lies, hypocracy, and damage this group could do and had to find a way to leave after 19 years of heavy involvement, and tried to get other dear friends to leave with me...
You've received some really good advice on this thread, and it sounds like you are starting to get the right idea about how to talk to your friend about this. Just understand that once she has bought into the big concept that twi does a better job than any other group at getting to the truth of the Word of God, it will probably be REALLY hard to discuss any one particular point with her because she will just assume you don't work the Word diligently/properly, or you aren't spiritually mature enough to get the concepts, etc. And if you push a point too far she will go from thinking you are just mistaken or mislead to wondering if you are wrongly influenced in your thinking (aka devil spirits).
If you push too hard, she WILL choose twi over your friendship, no matter how long you have been friends. Many of us here on these boards had trusted friends and family try to point out what they could see was wrong with this group, but we didn't want to hear it and many of us ended up turning our backs on those friends/family for years.
You need to understand that whole time she's been attending fellowships what has been happening underneath the surface is that she has been receiving training on how to dismiss other people's insights or arguments about the Bible, and much more importantly she has been taught how to start disregarding her own gut instincts. If there were ever things about the group that made her stop and pause, she's learned/learning how to shut those thoughts down and over-ride them with what twi has told her is right. She will consider that she's "renewing her mind to the Word" when she does this. It's a really incremental process and she won't even realize it has been happening.
My best overall advice is "tread lightly". I think it is good for you to know a whole lot about twi but you don't necessarily need to discuss those things with her up front. If someone isn't ready to hear the truth, there is no amount of logic or factual evidence, no amount of words -- or right way to say those words -- that will get her to actually HEAR whatever you try to tell her. Not if she doesn't want to hear them. She will justify herself and twi any way she can, and eventually shut you out to keep from hearing the arguments anymore, just like an abuse victim does.
I would just focus more on what it is that has attracted her to them. Is it the people? Is it their promise of prosperity in the face of worldly pressures? Is it their promise of a closer walk for/with God? Is it her own fear of not having a handle on the rest of her life? Trust me, there is "something" that is the key draw factor for her, whether she knows it or not.
Most importantly, just let her know that no matter what, you are her solid friend, and then stick to that. Even if you cannot get through to her now, at 'some' point, when she's ready to leave the group, she will need and appreciate having a friend like you that knew her before twi that she can go back to and start over. Someone she knows will forgive her bad judgement without hesitation. Knowing there is someone out there like that makes it easier to break off from twi when the person finally wants to make that leap.
Hope this helps.
THW
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stephaniefaye
well i talked to her and then just read what you said afterward and it was exactly how you said it. i told her what I had found out and at first she said I was mistaken and pretty much word for word reacted the way you said she would.even saying that we were "fighting" because of "devil spirits"
in the middle of talking she even said that if she had to she would never talk to me again so that we would never talk about it anymore. she got really angry with me.
but I assured her that I wasn't trying to attack her or make it seem like i was right and she was wrong but i told her that I loved her and she is one of my best friends and I am sharing it with her because i love her and don't want her to be mislead.
The conversation ended with us agreeing that we would look at the word together and discuss it together. hopefully this works out.
it really broke my heart because I didn't think she would be as angry with me as she was or that she would say she would never talk to me again.
thank you guys for all your help. really, it means a lot and it makes me hopeful.
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Brushstroke
That's how it seems to happen with Steph and I too. Of course, I think she's been a bit more forgiving towards me and my questions, but she does tend to get pretty angry when I tell her what I've found here at GSC and numerous other sites that say things about TWI.
I have a few threads I've created in the forum above this one, called About The Way. Take a look at them to get a good idea of where TWI stands on a lot of things. It'll help you understand (sort of understand, anyway...I find some of it to be gibberish) where they're coming from.
~ Phil
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Bramble
Something that you could do that would not be confrontational, but might give your friend some thought would be to point out good things about other people you know. Good things they do, good things that happen to them, their kindness, thoughtful actions, how they look out for each other...positive things, things that show friendship or community.
Twi isolates its people by coloring those on the outside as evil, or foolish or devil spirit inspired, on a road to destruction or harm, emphasis is on the bad negative things unbelievers experience or do.
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TheHighWay
I'm sorry it turned out exactly as we said it would, but at least you know "why" and don't have to get completely freaked out by your friend's behavior. You are not alone. If no one has suggested it to you yet, get ahold of the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". It was written by people who never had any direct interaction with TWI but who understand the actions and principles involved whenever someone puts their trust in a spiritual authority figure and the authority figure abuses that trust. It will give you insight into what is going on with your friend although, again, she will not realize or admit that it is happening at all.
As for working the Word together, just realize that she will show you what they've taught her and if it doesn't make sense to you or you just don't agree with their conclusions, she will conclude you just don't see it (NOT that you might have a point). So, again, I suggest you tread lightly. Try to be honest with her but, well, you've seen who she will side with if you push too hard.
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doojable
Steph - she was angry because she's most likely been told that the Satan would try to trick her out of the word through her family and friends.
You need to remember what a mind-numbing, soul-sucking, piece of crap twi is. Then remember that it's your friend that stands to lose the most. She's a person - so treat her like a person. To twi she's just another potential money contributor.
Bramble said some good stuff.
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Twinky
I thought this bore repeating.
Like the way you put it, Highway.
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