I'm not sure why you would need to discuss The Way any differently than you have discussed any other serious topic. I suppose one caveat I might offer is that people who have been heavily indoctrinated by The Way tend to become quite stubbornly defensive of their beliefs and behaviors. I'm sure that reaction is not unique to Way followers, though.
What is it you want to accomplish by talking to her? From my view it would help to know what group she is involved with, because I see differences between them all. (*some others here might disagree with me). Is this a college year roomate? You said she is also your best friend, so I assume you have known her for awhile.
I'd start out with something like "since we are living together, I'd like to know what it is that you are into with this thing?"
I dunno that I would start out throwing stones at what she is into without knowing the history of her involvement. Is it new to her too?
she has been in it for maybe a little over a year. i think she is in a twig.....if that makes in sense. of course i am not going to attack her about it, but just present her with information of paul weirwille and the way, tell her i am concerned about her and that i don't want her to be misled.
and yes we have been best friends for a long time, since elementary school.
Each individual is a "leaf". Several leaves(3 or more) comprise a "twig". They typically meet in private homes.
If you have several twigs in a geographic area, such as a city, they , combined, are called a "branch". All the branches in a statewide area, combined, are called a "limb". A country is a"Trunk". The "root" is the headquarters facility(HQ), which is located in New Knoxville, Ohio. Nourishment for the tree (ie:cash) travels from the "leaves" to the "root". However, it never follows a return route. Thus, the tree analogy is quite flawed. In other words, it's really a "pyramid scheme", sometimes referred to as "multi-level-marketing".(MLM)
Here is a link to some vital information regarding the founder of The Way, "Dr." Victor Paul Wierwille. (He wasn't really a "Dr.") It may all seem insignificant to someone not familiar with The Way. To those who have been involved for any length of time, however, it may seem to be quite a shock.
thank you for that! so since she is part of a twig that means she is part of the way?
i also had a question that you may help me with.....my roommate (the same one i have been talking about) found out she was pregnant in july by her x-boyfriend, since she first told me she was pregnant she had never mentioned it again and whenever i mentioned the baby she would always say "it's not a baby yet" finally i asked her why she kept saying that and if it was because she didn't want the baby. she didn't answer me and just looked angry. since then (that was about a month ago) she still has never mentioned it and she just doesn't seem like she is pregnant anymore. she works out at a gym everyday and i don't know.....would her twig tell her to have an abortion? do they condone that?
.....would her twig tell her to have an abortion? do they condone that?
Her twig MIGHT tell her to have an abortion - that would be based on how the twig coordinator was "wired" - but I would not suggest that that is always the case. It has been done in the past (I've been out 22 yrs now so my experience is out of date). They certainly would condone an abortion if that was her choice and if they thought it would further the ends of TWI.
thank you for that! so since she is part of a twig that means she is part of the way?
i also had a question that you may help me with.....my roommate (the same one i have been talking about) found out she was pregnant in july by her x-boyfriend, since she first told me she was pregnant she had never mentioned it again and whenever i mentioned the baby she would always say "it's not a baby yet" finally i asked her why she kept saying that and if it was because she didn't want the baby. she didn't answer me and just looked angry. since then (that was about a month ago) she still has never mentioned it and she just doesn't seem like she is pregnant anymore. she works out at a gym everyday and i don't know.....would her twig tell her to have an abortion? do they condone that?
I have been out of the way for several years so my info. may be dated.
The term "twig" is no longer used. They are now called "household fellowships".
(Same product, new name.)
Regarding the other matter:
The Way teaches that "soul life" starts with the first breath and ends with the last. Hence, according to TWI theology, a baby is not "alive" until it takes its first breath. I don't know if they would directly advise her to have an abortion but their theology supports the concept. This is the sort of thing that would be best discussed with her directly.
edited to note that I didn't see RumRunners response before I posted.
yeah she calls them home fellowships, but she has this magazine and her group and others in the area are in it and it says "The Twigs". So i guess they still refer them to that.
this is very sad to me. i really hope she didn't get an abortion but i feel she has. thanks for the information. i am pretty nervous about talking to her about everything...i know she will be angry with me. I am just making sure that what I am going to say won't be attacking and she won't think I am against her but for her.
TWI (or splinter group) philosophy aside, the decision to have an abortion is very personal and probably not done lightly. If you don't feel like broaching the subject now, you might wait a month or two, when it should be obvious whether or not she has had one. I would "de-couple" any discussion of the pregnancy from discussions about TWI, unless she makes the connection.
Depending on her particular fellowship, she may feel she is learning great things about the Bible in a group of people who really care about her. I still value a lot of what I had back in the day, although I've been out of TWI for over a decade. The trick will be to get her to see that the "root" is rotten, and that she can find what she needs elsewhere.
oh yes i wasn't going to associate her fellowship with her abortion or talk to her about it unless she mentioned it.
that is they other hard thing too, cause she really likes the people in her fellowship and i don't think they are bad people either. and i want to make sure that i don't make her think i think they are evil people or something cause i don't
Please keep in mind that if she had an abortion she might have made the decision on her own without their advice. It is her legal right, as it should be (IMO). She may or may not have second thoughts now about it. In any event she needs to be assured she is loved and she needs to be loved tenderly. It is never an easy decision.
I would not assume that it was made in consultation with her fellowship people even though it is possible. It does not matter now. She needs your emotional support as a friend, now more than ever.
It's very important to realize that the people at the grass roots level, down in the trenches, going to local "twigs" are people just like you and me. Some of my fondest memories of TWI (The Way International) revolve around relationships I had with genuinely sincere people at the local level. But, the way TWI was structured, it was simply not acceptable to settle for status-quo. You had to be on an endless quest to reach the unattainable through a series of classes (which cost money), training programs (which cost money ++) and ABS (abundant sharing). [Abundant sharing, in a nut shell, means you give a minimum of 15% of your gross income to "The Ministry".]
Ever heard the analogy of "the frog in the pot"? If you put a frog in a pot of water that is room temperature, it will swim about happily without concern. But, if you very slowly turn up the fire under the pot, the frog won't notice until it's too late for him to avoid being cooked. That's how TWI works. They count on the goodness of local "believers" to keep the pot at room temperature.
Good advise and good analogy Waysider - I was just trying to put some similar thoughts into words - thanks for doing it for me - or for StephanieFaye anyway...
My freshman roommate was in a similar situation. I was no longer in TWI but I was still indoctrinated and probably would have returned to fellowship if my parents had and if some of the people I actually liked were in our assigned fellowship. I don't think there's much you can do if she's at an early stage in TWI: what worked for me was a few years of dissatisfaction with the group, being on my own at school, and looking up The Way on Wikipedia out of curiosity. Encourage your roommate to do other activities (though she probably won't feel the need) that will put her in contact with a diverse group of people. And if you guys are in college, I found that my classes (especially anthropology) were eye-opening.
Oh, and the best thing my roommate ever did for me was to be my friend even if she thought some of my religious views were weird. I learned a lot from her.
Above all be supportive of HER as she is, which it sounds like you are and love her enough to look into things. She is probably interested in learning more about the word and you are probably right the people at her twig level are great. I always liked the people in our twig, they were real. If she starts to act differently, her confidence in herself and her abilities appear to be slipping then you need to be there. Its good you see not to be judgmental and aren't attacking her beliefs (that is a sign of war and not to be tolerated, you would be marked as someone stopping her from hearing the "truth" and cutting all ties would be STRONGLY recommened.) As long as she knows you are there to talk whenever needed. She may have had an abortion or even a miscarriage and just feels shame either way and is not ready to talk about it, again just be supportive. Being her friend is all you really can do. If she knows you and her family love her and no one attacks she will be likely to keep an open mind and stay herself. Too many people burned bridges in TWI because family & Friends attacked and pushed too hard to reason, and when they left they had no one to go to.
Unfortunately its all up to her and you can hope she will see things for what they are before she is involved too deep. Someone at a higher level than the twig is probably a royal A-hole (they have been programmed that way and there are some that are good, but not many) and that will open her eyes to see how people are treated. Sadly you need to be in a while to see some true colors.
the only reason i would think that her twig influenced her on the abortion is because she was never a person that would have an abortion. so that is why it would be odd and heartbreaking. but i will not accuse her twig doing that unless she mentions it.
i guess i will just present her with the information i found and tell her that i am praying for her and that if it is the truth she is seeking God will reveal it to her. and i pray that he does open her eyes. I have come to realize too in the past couple of days that I really need to stop thinking that I can fix this problem. Since I found out I have just had this burden on my shoulders but I really shouldn't....God has to move in her heart for her to realize. I can't do it all myself. So i will just be there loving her and helping her anyway i can.
So, I just realized that my roommate and best friend is part of the way or one of its splinter groups and I have been researching everything and preparing myself and I am going to talk to her about it. i was just wondering if y'all had any advice on what I should say or shouldn't say or just anything y'all would think would be helpfull. thanks!
~steph
Hi stephaniefaye,
This is the United States of America and folks have the liberty to choose their own religious group. If she's not pushing you to join, why push her to get out? In my opinion if she's happy with her involvement its none of anyone else's business. Live and let live.
Stephanie - you can certainly ask her what she is into. You can ask her why she keeps saying that it's not a baby yet.
It's not pushing someone out of a religious belief to ask them to explain why their views on something have changed - or at least appear to have changed.
I'd ask her how she feels about all this. TWI is in the habit of telling folks to ignore their feelings - but in not so many words.
I'd try to spend time with her. Love her. Let her know you'll be a friend that sticks close - no matter what.
(I wouldn't join twi to stay close tho...)
Be gentle and loving. If she's your friend, she'll know when you're being genuine. If she makes mistakes, just help her get past them.
Her being in a twig might (might) lead to you getting your feelings hurt. Try to remain calm and don't let your emotions say the wrong thing. Don't talk while you're in the heat of anger or fear or sadness.
Let her know you're comfortable "just being" with her.
There were many many of us as young women in twi that were *counceled* to get abortions. People were told not to let a *paracite*, a *cluster of not yet alive cells* (no I am not kidding, this is how they view it) prevent them from serving God.
I`d say that if your friend was considering going into any of the programs in twi, she would very likely face heavy coersion to put God first and have the *little problem* addressed. To fail to do so would be dissapointing God, a trick from Satan to keep her from her spiritual duty...etc
It is a sick sad place.
Anything you say that contradicts what they are telling her will be viewed as Satan using you to steal the word from her. I tell you this so that you can tread lightly friend. Your friendship might prove to be her anchor in the real world, even if it isn`t readily apparent.
This is the United States of America and folks have the liberty to choose their own religious group. If she's not pushing you to join, why push her to get out? In my opinion if she's happy with her involvement its none of anyone else's business. Live and let live.
You remember the old TV commercial? Friends don't let friends do drugs... The parallel applies - even if we limit it to abuse of "legitimate" prescription drugs.
I believe that the various people who have suggested that StephanieFaye be understanding is very good advice. However Stephanie should also know of the completely destructive nature of The Way international. The women who were abused sexually and emotionally by the top leadership of TWI; the financial corruption; the illegal block voting in national elections, the corruption of the Bible for personal gain and control over people, the abuse of the believer at the edge of the tree (the leaf StephanieFaye) for cheap or free labor; the constant yelling, the BLATANT racism - THE COMPLETELY CORRUPT NATURE OF TWI should be exposed for what it is.
It is a corrupt and VERY criminal organization... as ALMOST ALL of its ex-followers will be quick to point out - and indeed HAVE pointed out not only here at GreasespotCafe but at many other ex-way sites.
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waysider
Hi, Steph
Welcome to our little coffee shop.
I'm not sure why you would need to discuss The Way any differently than you have discussed any other serious topic. I suppose one caveat I might offer is that people who have been heavily indoctrinated by The Way tend to become quite stubbornly defensive of their beliefs and behaviors. I'm sure that reaction is not unique to Way followers, though.
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HAPe4me
What is it you want to accomplish by talking to her? From my view it would help to know what group she is involved with, because I see differences between them all. (*some others here might disagree with me). Is this a college year roomate? You said she is also your best friend, so I assume you have known her for awhile.
I'd start out with something like "since we are living together, I'd like to know what it is that you are into with this thing?"
I dunno that I would start out throwing stones at what she is into without knowing the history of her involvement. Is it new to her too?
~HAP
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stephaniefaye
she has been in it for maybe a little over a year. i think she is in a twig.....if that makes in sense. of course i am not going to attack her about it, but just present her with information of paul weirwille and the way, tell her i am concerned about her and that i don't want her to be misled.
and yes we have been best friends for a long time, since elementary school.
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waysider
Steph
The Way is/was structured like a tree.
Each individual is a "leaf". Several leaves(3 or more) comprise a "twig". They typically meet in private homes.
If you have several twigs in a geographic area, such as a city, they , combined, are called a "branch". All the branches in a statewide area, combined, are called a "limb". A country is a"Trunk". The "root" is the headquarters facility(HQ), which is located in New Knoxville, Ohio. Nourishment for the tree (ie:cash) travels from the "leaves" to the "root". However, it never follows a return route. Thus, the tree analogy is quite flawed. In other words, it's really a "pyramid scheme", sometimes referred to as "multi-level-marketing".(MLM)
Here is a link to some vital information regarding the founder of The Way, "Dr." Victor Paul Wierwille. (He wasn't really a "Dr.") It may all seem insignificant to someone not familiar with The Way. To those who have been involved for any length of time, however, it may seem to be quite a shock.
http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/vp_DEATH.htm
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stephaniefaye
thank you for that! so since she is part of a twig that means she is part of the way?
i also had a question that you may help me with.....my roommate (the same one i have been talking about) found out she was pregnant in july by her x-boyfriend, since she first told me she was pregnant she had never mentioned it again and whenever i mentioned the baby she would always say "it's not a baby yet" finally i asked her why she kept saying that and if it was because she didn't want the baby. she didn't answer me and just looked angry. since then (that was about a month ago) she still has never mentioned it and she just doesn't seem like she is pregnant anymore. she works out at a gym everyday and i don't know.....would her twig tell her to have an abortion? do they condone that?
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RumRunner
Her twig MIGHT tell her to have an abortion - that would be based on how the twig coordinator was "wired" - but I would not suggest that that is always the case. It has been done in the past (I've been out 22 yrs now so my experience is out of date). They certainly would condone an abortion if that was her choice and if they thought it would further the ends of TWI.
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waysider
I have been out of the way for several years so my info. may be dated.
The term "twig" is no longer used. They are now called "household fellowships".
(Same product, new name.)
Regarding the other matter:
The Way teaches that "soul life" starts with the first breath and ends with the last. Hence, according to TWI theology, a baby is not "alive" until it takes its first breath. I don't know if they would directly advise her to have an abortion but their theology supports the concept. This is the sort of thing that would be best discussed with her directly.
edited to note that I didn't see RumRunners response before I posted.
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stephaniefaye
yeah she calls them home fellowships, but she has this magazine and her group and others in the area are in it and it says "The Twigs". So i guess they still refer them to that.
this is very sad to me. i really hope she didn't get an abortion but i feel she has. thanks for the information. i am pretty nervous about talking to her about everything...i know she will be angry with me. I am just making sure that what I am going to say won't be attacking and she won't think I am against her but for her.
is there anything else i should tell her?
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GeorgeStGeorge
TWI (or splinter group) philosophy aside, the decision to have an abortion is very personal and probably not done lightly. If you don't feel like broaching the subject now, you might wait a month or two, when it should be obvious whether or not she has had one. I would "de-couple" any discussion of the pregnancy from discussions about TWI, unless she makes the connection.
Depending on her particular fellowship, she may feel she is learning great things about the Bible in a group of people who really care about her. I still value a lot of what I had back in the day, although I've been out of TWI for over a decade. The trick will be to get her to see that the "root" is rotten, and that she can find what she needs elsewhere.
George
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stephaniefaye
oh yes i wasn't going to associate her fellowship with her abortion or talk to her about it unless she mentioned it.
that is they other hard thing too, cause she really likes the people in her fellowship and i don't think they are bad people either. and i want to make sure that i don't make her think i think they are evil people or something cause i don't
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HAPe4me
Please keep in mind that if she had an abortion she might have made the decision on her own without their advice. It is her legal right, as it should be (IMO). She may or may not have second thoughts now about it. In any event she needs to be assured she is loved and she needs to be loved tenderly. It is never an easy decision.
I would not assume that it was made in consultation with her fellowship people even though it is possible. It does not matter now. She needs your emotional support as a friend, now more than ever.
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waysider
It's very important to realize that the people at the grass roots level, down in the trenches, going to local "twigs" are people just like you and me. Some of my fondest memories of TWI (The Way International) revolve around relationships I had with genuinely sincere people at the local level. But, the way TWI was structured, it was simply not acceptable to settle for status-quo. You had to be on an endless quest to reach the unattainable through a series of classes (which cost money), training programs (which cost money ++) and ABS (abundant sharing). [Abundant sharing, in a nut shell, means you give a minimum of 15% of your gross income to "The Ministry".]
Ever heard the analogy of "the frog in the pot"? If you put a frog in a pot of water that is room temperature, it will swim about happily without concern. But, if you very slowly turn up the fire under the pot, the frog won't notice until it's too late for him to avoid being cooked. That's how TWI works. They count on the goodness of local "believers" to keep the pot at room temperature.
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RumRunner
Good advise and good analogy Waysider - I was just trying to put some similar thoughts into words - thanks for doing it for me - or for StephanieFaye anyway...
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now I see
Steph, how old is your roommate?
Is there anything else besides the abortion issue that is bothering you about her association with the Way?
Has she changed significantly since she started going there?
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excathedra
she hasn't invited you to a fellowship?
maybe you could tell her about this site.
good luck to you and your best friend.
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cheranne
just be yourself
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kenwas
My freshman roommate was in a similar situation. I was no longer in TWI but I was still indoctrinated and probably would have returned to fellowship if my parents had and if some of the people I actually liked were in our assigned fellowship. I don't think there's much you can do if she's at an early stage in TWI: what worked for me was a few years of dissatisfaction with the group, being on my own at school, and looking up The Way on Wikipedia out of curiosity. Encourage your roommate to do other activities (though she probably won't feel the need) that will put her in contact with a diverse group of people. And if you guys are in college, I found that my classes (especially anthropology) were eye-opening.
Oh, and the best thing my roommate ever did for me was to be my friend even if she thought some of my religious views were weird. I learned a lot from her.
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so it was
Above all be supportive of HER as she is, which it sounds like you are and love her enough to look into things. She is probably interested in learning more about the word and you are probably right the people at her twig level are great. I always liked the people in our twig, they were real. If she starts to act differently, her confidence in herself and her abilities appear to be slipping then you need to be there. Its good you see not to be judgmental and aren't attacking her beliefs (that is a sign of war and not to be tolerated, you would be marked as someone stopping her from hearing the "truth" and cutting all ties would be STRONGLY recommened.) As long as she knows you are there to talk whenever needed. She may have had an abortion or even a miscarriage and just feels shame either way and is not ready to talk about it, again just be supportive. Being her friend is all you really can do. If she knows you and her family love her and no one attacks she will be likely to keep an open mind and stay herself. Too many people burned bridges in TWI because family & Friends attacked and pushed too hard to reason, and when they left they had no one to go to.
Unfortunately its all up to her and you can hope she will see things for what they are before she is involved too deep. Someone at a higher level than the twig is probably a royal A-hole (they have been programmed that way and there are some that are good, but not many) and that will open her eyes to see how people are treated. Sadly you need to be in a while to see some true colors.
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stephaniefaye
the only reason i would think that her twig influenced her on the abortion is because she was never a person that would have an abortion. so that is why it would be odd and heartbreaking. but i will not accuse her twig doing that unless she mentions it.
i guess i will just present her with the information i found and tell her that i am praying for her and that if it is the truth she is seeking God will reveal it to her. and i pray that he does open her eyes. I have come to realize too in the past couple of days that I really need to stop thinking that I can fix this problem. Since I found out I have just had this burden on my shoulders but I really shouldn't....God has to move in her heart for her to realize. I can't do it all myself. So i will just be there loving her and helping her anyway i can.
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oldiesman
Hi stephaniefaye,
This is the United States of America and folks have the liberty to choose their own religious group. If she's not pushing you to join, why push her to get out? In my opinion if she's happy with her involvement its none of anyone else's business. Live and let live.
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doojable
Stephanie - you can certainly ask her what she is into. You can ask her why she keeps saying that it's not a baby yet.
It's not pushing someone out of a religious belief to ask them to explain why their views on something have changed - or at least appear to have changed.
I'd ask her how she feels about all this. TWI is in the habit of telling folks to ignore their feelings - but in not so many words.
I'd try to spend time with her. Love her. Let her know you'll be a friend that sticks close - no matter what.
(I wouldn't join twi to stay close tho...)
Be gentle and loving. If she's your friend, she'll know when you're being genuine. If she makes mistakes, just help her get past them.
Her being in a twig might (might) lead to you getting your feelings hurt. Try to remain calm and don't let your emotions say the wrong thing. Don't talk while you're in the heat of anger or fear or sadness.
Let her know you're comfortable "just being" with her.
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rascal
There were many many of us as young women in twi that were *counceled* to get abortions. People were told not to let a *paracite*, a *cluster of not yet alive cells* (no I am not kidding, this is how they view it) prevent them from serving God.
I`d say that if your friend was considering going into any of the programs in twi, she would very likely face heavy coersion to put God first and have the *little problem* addressed. To fail to do so would be dissapointing God, a trick from Satan to keep her from her spiritual duty...etc
It is a sick sad place.
Anything you say that contradicts what they are telling her will be viewed as Satan using you to steal the word from her. I tell you this so that you can tread lightly friend. Your friendship might prove to be her anchor in the real world, even if it isn`t readily apparent.
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MATILDA
isn't readily a parent...
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RumRunner
You remember the old TV commercial? Friends don't let friends do drugs... The parallel applies - even if we limit it to abuse of "legitimate" prescription drugs.
I believe that the various people who have suggested that StephanieFaye be understanding is very good advice. However Stephanie should also know of the completely destructive nature of The Way international. The women who were abused sexually and emotionally by the top leadership of TWI; the financial corruption; the illegal block voting in national elections, the corruption of the Bible for personal gain and control over people, the abuse of the believer at the edge of the tree (the leaf StephanieFaye) for cheap or free labor; the constant yelling, the BLATANT racism - THE COMPLETELY CORRUPT NATURE OF TWI should be exposed for what it is.
It is a corrupt and VERY criminal organization... as ALMOST ALL of its ex-followers will be quick to point out - and indeed HAVE pointed out not only here at GreasespotCafe but at many other ex-way sites.
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