Doctorates, and other qualifications fit for the outhouse..

[Ham]

I don't have a copy of it anymore, but didn't the victoid tell Whiteside something like..

"ya know, my *critics* say I got my phd from a degree mill.."

Seems to me, either it's true, or it isn't. Why put those words in the mouths of those he considered "critics"?

It almost insinuates that they have the burden of proof.

Then he doesn't really adequately address the claim.. just spins another yarn about how the pres of the "institution" was some kinda "maverick", and was a high official in the education system.. which was also disproven.

and how he modeled pfal out of the methods of *mr* lininger..

[Ham]

Then.. who were these "critics" actually supposed to be, who were blowing the whistle on herr vicmeister?

Pretty vague description. This was in 1971 I think.. long before the real hoopla.

Were they ministers in the surrounding countryside? Perhaps former church members who knew him?

Why would he omit their names, unless he really would rather one not look them up?

makes me wonder..

[JeffSjo]

Hi there Ham!

From my own recollection and further info I've gleaned from the greasespot, this, in a nutshell (nothing personal Ham) is my new estimation of Wierwille's character as it touches his handling of his credentials.

Even though Wierwille CLAIMED to be taught by God himself he seemed exceptionally concerned about appearances as it pertained to his credentials. To my way of thinking, if even a carpenter's son was called; oh wait a minute....... hmmm; the last thing such a man would be concerned about was the initials in front of his name.

The fact that Wierwille got his doctorate from questionable sources and then never seemed to come clean about it seems to me to indicate almost a manic kind of need to appear official. Even though Wierwille was quick to put down the supposed great men of his time, he seemed to me to be obsessed with appearing great himself. Why else would he be pleased to be considered th MOGFODAT!?

MY OPINION OF HIM AS IT RELATES TO THESE THINGS IS THAT HE WANTED IT BOTH WAYS, he wanted to be thought of as a man of God, and he had an insane amount of concern when it came to his own status in people's eyes.

(added in editing)

I consider the DR. that is in front of the WIERWILLE as a sure indication of his narcissism.

Edited October 3, 2008 by JeffSjo

[Ham]

Yeah.

well, I think the real troubling thing is how he disregarded these men (and perhaps women) who seemed to take question with his credentials.. Doesn't as much as name them. Practically called them enemies.

I think this shows how warped his logic was even at that time. It would be like, Capone whining because somebody called him a gangster..

[JeffSjo]

You bet Ham,

Like in my splinter group, the man in charge seemed to delight in destroying his enemies.

Whether they threatened his greatness from the outside of the group or from the inside they were marked and destroyed in the most despicable manners, as long as it didn't leave them vulnerable to prosecution through the legal system.

Guided by these despicable double standards of behavior, leadership was allowed to become a backstabbing force for evil through poltical machinations.

I've heard you mention Machiavellian behavior and the double standard before Ham.

I'm out of time now, I get back with you later.

Edited October 3, 2008 by JeffSjo

[oldiesman]

The following was posted by Mike in 2005 who was quoting Research Geek from back in 2002, who (Research Geek and Catcup) were at Pikes Peak. I add in this thread as it perhaps adds a different perspective about the "degree mill" that is thought to be Pikes Peak:

originally posted by Research Geek October 04, 2002:

"I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary. I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class. My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado. We drove up to it on a hill and were looking at the building when the owner of the house came out. We said hi and explained what we were doing and he invited us in and showed us around. The owner said that indeed the Seminary operated out of that building and even showed us a picture of the place years ago taken from across the valley. It was in a frame and mounted on the wall. The owner said that it was a condition of the house purchase agreement that the picture remain with the building. We took photos and showed them to vpw. He remembered the picture on the wall.

"The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method. Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions. vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree. But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in and get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize. I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort.

"So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title. Perhaps his decision to go was unwise. I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials."

I might distance myself from a few of the opinions expressed at the end of the above post, but the bulk of it is quite noteworthy. I urge the objectors to dig deeper than just listening to what's in the wind, and not base crucial life decisions on the lies of people who didn't bother to get informed.

Dr not only earned his doctorate, but he performed far beyond what any PhD has ever done for anyone. He brought us God's light like it hasn't been seen in 2000 years. In my book that earns him credit far beyond a doctorate.

[penworks]

Wow. I'm surprised at Research Geek's comment from his above quote dated October 04, 2002:

"Dr not only earned his doctorate, but he performed far beyond what any PhD has ever done for anyone. He brought us God's light like it hasn't been seen in 2000 years. In my book that earns him credit far beyond a doctorate."

Maybe Research Geek has changed his mind since then.

For me, that's an impossible claim to believe anymore.

peace,

penworks

Edited October 3, 2008 by penworks

[rascal]

It turns out that THAT Princeton has nothing to do with the other school by that name.

We have seen pictures and found out how meaningless his degrees and doctorate were as phoney as he was.

[doojable]

Ask Oldies (or Mike), penworks, but I think the line you just set apart in bold are Mike's words.

[Ham]

And how much "time" did he ACTUALLY "put in"?

I know a few with PHD's in math.. it took a few YEARS.

Now as to choosing a second rate institution, for a doctorate "program".. he was "educated", was he not? In other words.. even if he got scammed, he should have known better.. he'd been around the "real deal", at least for a few years.

but who were these "critics"?

I'd still like to know.

[kimberly]

Ham, honey, you still want to know who the critics are? Don't fret over this. If we knew the critics.....what?

Surely, we are called to wonder and ponder greater and mightier things.

[Ham]

surely greater things, eh?

I'm dealing with his grandkid, who seems to have inherited the same or worse arrogance and egotism, if not (eventually) the same morals..

you tell me if it isn't "relevant".

Edited October 4, 2008 by Ham

[Ham]

same damn mindset too..

I'm one of the "critics".. despite the fact I offer the most objective analysis and practical "wisdom" that he'll never see from the yes *men* (cough) that want to see a "boy from Brazil" inherit the "greatness" of his ancestor..

friggin idjits.. it's not present "truth".. it's present evil..

keep reading, friend..

[Ham]

so I want to know WHO the critics are, referenced by his "greatness"..

were they old church members, who wouldn't put up with the bull.. called him on his doctoral "greatness".. maybe we're seeing history repeating itself..

were they people who had a half a brain?

maybe people who had some kind of genuine concern?

"critics".. ha.

I'll say this.. if one would just friggin LISTEN.. you don't have to agree with me..

but at least you might understand me..

maybe I'm asking for too much.

[waysider]

I dunno, Hammy

Maybe 'the critics" are related to the famous "They" family.

You know----"They" say this and "They" say that---

Or as Dr. John once said, "Who are "they" and has anybody ever seen them?"

[kimberly]

And mightier, eh.

Sorry, I do not know your history and your are dealings with his grandkids. Therefore, I can not tell you if this is revelant or not. Obviously, it is for you. I assure you I am not making light of this. I don't walk in your shoes.

Then on another thought......I don't know if arrogance and/or egotism is inherited. I rather think it is taught, learned.

[shazdancer]

And to once again set the record straight...

VP got his master's at Princeton Theological Seminary, not Princeton University.

Now, PTS is a real seminary, still is, and churns out real pastors. (One of our Greasespotters went there post-TWI.) But it isn't PRINCETON.

And yes, in that long quote, the words in quotation marks were Research Geek's, but the words following were Mike's.

[Ham]

This little egotistical, arrogant god wanabe actually considers me an adversary, simply because I can't validate his particular brand of "culthood" as the fulfillment and extension of the "greatest word-o-god" since the first century..

I spit on his "inheritance"..

Believe it or not, I'm actually peaceful here..

[penworks]

Ask Oldies (or Mike), penworks, but I think the line you just set apart in bold are Mike's words.

Oh, yes, I see that now. Looks like Mike's comment at the end...not RG's. Thanks :)

[geisha779]

And how much "time" did he ACTUALLY "put in"?

I know a few with PHD's in math.. it took a few YEARS.

Now as to choosing a second rate institution, for a doctorate "program".. he was "educated", was he not? In other words.. even if he got scammed, he should have known better.. he'd been around the "real deal", at least for a few years.

but who were these "critics"?

I'd still like to know.

Ham,

His critics started in his own denomination when he resigned. This is not specifically about his PHD, but the criticism began early on. . .

"After his return (1957), Wierwille resigned from the ministry of the Evangelical and Reformed Church. This resignation seems to have been motivated by the denomination. One of the officials of the denomination later reported on the incident, saying,"

Because of certain remarks which (Wierwille) made criticizing the Church and the Government of India, a riot erupted in one of our stations.

Upon his return to Ohio, a church (committee)...conducted a hearing with Mr. Wierwille. Because of his feelings and attitudes for the church, he was advised to withdraw as a minister.

Another early critic was Gordon Walker a minister for Campus Crusade. He called VP a false Prophet early on in the ministry.

David Anderson--who said Vp sold out for money. CRI. Walter Martin would be someone VP would have considered a critic.

J.L Williams.

Basically anyone early on who really looked at TWI. CAN would be another.

Many church leaders who spoke out against TWI.

There were critics who spoke up---many ---Hope this helps.

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

I strongly suspect that Wierwille had a major falling out with the Northwestern Synod of Ohio of the Evangelical and Reformed Church's classis and it's presidents like Emil Basler. Implications are VPW disliked the authority and structure. btw, There is no record of Wierwille being offered a ThD from Yale, Harvard, Cambridge, or Oxford in turn for a professorship at these institutions. There was a rumor uncheked that Nyack College of the Christian Missionary Alliance was considering giving VPW an honorary doctorate in theology, but withdrew the offer when Wierwille lambasted all denominations in his infamous Dilema of Foreign Missions, where he criticised the E&R, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Catholics, etc. of slave trade and manipulations. Some also speculate that Wierwille was going to run as a dark horse candidate for the presidency of the newly formed UCC against Robert Moss(pastor at Corinth E&R church in Hickory,NC). But that may be conjecture(no proof).

[JeffSjo]

There was a rumor uncheked that Nyack College of the Christian Missionary Alliance was considering giving VPW an honorary doctorate in theology, but withdrew the offer when Wierwille lambasted all denominations in his infamous Dilema of Foreign Missions, where he criticised the E&R, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Catholics, etc. of slave trade and manipulations.

I've never read his piece on the missions in India, but what did TWI become anyway?

The mind games and manipulations that I suffered in my splinter group fit with the many reliable reports of TWI leadership behavior like A HAND IN A GLOVE!

SLAVE TRADE!? For me this doesn't apply to India, it applies to the hundreds of abused women that suffered devilish behavior at the hands of the great scumbag and his children!!!

MANIPULATIONS!? Why even here at the Greasespot I've seen Wierwille loyalists ganging up on one woman with such loving and gentle phrases like "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen...." etc. etc. Much less how everyone here seems to have seen people falsely accused of being possessed or some such politically expedient false accusation.

Wierwille himself implied that he would tell a woman accusing him of rape to GET OUT OF HERE..... (Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus) What a scum-sucking bottom dweller.

His academic credentials are the least of my concerns, I think that we could probably find many fully accredited scum-sucking bottom dwellers out there too. But it is clear to me that Wierwille himself could have set the record straight absolutely any time that he wanted. He wanted the DR. in front of his name more than he wanted to be honest about getting it from an institute that later fell into disrepute, plain and simple. If he was who he said he was handling this would have been truly simple.

If TWI understood what the Lord has promised to do to people that did the kind of things that Wierwille did, then and only then would I consider his students to even coming close to knowing the Word like it was known in the first century, but then there's still the Jewish issues, the rampant dispensationalism that hashed the Word to pieces, etc. etc.

Edited October 4, 2008 by JeffSjo

[JeffSjo]

I don't have a copy of it anymore, but didn't the victoid tell Whiteside something like..

"ya know, my *critics* say I got my phd from a degree mill.."

Seems to me, either it's true, or it isn't. Why put those words in the mouths of those he considered "critics"?

It almost insinuates that they have the burden of proof.

Then he doesn't really adequately address the claim.. just spins another yarn about how the pres of the "institution" was some kinda "maverick", and was a high official in the education system.. which was also disproven.

and how he modeled pfal out of the methods of *mr* lininger..

Hi again Ham,

Actually, I've seen a leader (so-called) do this kind of thing before. I think that the only thing that the victoid was doing was gaging Whiteside's response. Who can tell what kind of decisions vic made while looking at Whiteside respond to this. I'm certain that Wierwille already knew about his degree mill, I think the only reason he'd bring it up is to size up the one he brought it up to. IMO

(edited for spelling)

Edited October 4, 2008 by JeffSjo

[now I see]

"ya know, my *critics* say I got my phd from a degree mill.."

Seems to me, either it's true, or it isn't. Why put those words in the mouths of those he considered "critics"?

You're forgetting he was also a sociopathic narcissist.

They constantly tell "poor me" stories to make the listener feel sorry for them and they'll use that pull of sympathy to hook them and to court and manipulate the unknowing victim and to cast their spell over them. This tactic makes far more friends than enemies. They enjoy the thrill of the chase, on that razors edge of being found out vs wining over potential allies. They are usually very good speakers, and know how to use their words and spin a story.

[Ham]

and I think the "elders" are training the victoid's namesake to do the same thing. Reckless, "charismatic", and "persecuted"..

don't need an education.. supposedly "signs and wonders don't necesarily follow those with a degree.."

as if signs and wonders just litter the ground somewhere in rural Mississippi..